Christians at War

[sparky]

And no......violence has NEVER been a part of what God and Jesus talked about. What part of "thou shalt not kill" do you not get?

depends on who's manipulating the message BikerSailor.....

 

[Gurdari]

First, tell me a country that still does things the OT way, then tell me how these verses are applicable today. They're not.

And no......violence has NEVER been a part of what God and Jesus talked about. What part of "thou shalt not kill" do you not get?

What any nations do, or do not do, the 'OT' way is a separate discussion from whether or not violence is deemed to be acceptable by Christians based on the Bible.

If this was the 'word of God' or at least his direction, then it would mean it is God's will still today. Unless God changed his mind from his earlier attitude towards violent problem solving?

As for Thou shalt not kill, God also says 'Kill' ...don't ask me to explain why he changes his mind.

 

[Shogun]

thats because it's "Thou shall not MURDER".

 

[Gurdari]

And this is the problem with literal interpretations of historical documents. There's almost a couple of thousand years of theological interpretation available on just about every issue in the Bible. So why interpret the text in a literal manner? I posted earlier in the thread (I think) about the interpretation of Just War by St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, yet here we are, dragged back to the literal word in the Bible.

Well, exactly how literal should the Bible be taken? Wasn't it taken 100% literally 1000 years ago?
Have we evolved to be 'less in need' of the original message?
Which parts did God 'sort of' mean, and which parts was he serious about?

Seems a tricky thing to chop up parts of it and say 'these ones are true' but 'these ones over here are a nice read, but take them too seriously'.

 

[Shogun]

Dude you are like a crazed lunacidal manic in need of serious medication and about 25 years in a streight jacket... go get help quikly go go

suck my dick, bible junkie. Feel free to talk shit.. Hell, I enjoy that too.. BUT, in the meantime, my point about the red lettered quotes from your messiah stand.


Sucks to know that an atheist knows more about your bible than you do, eh?

 

[Gurdari]

thats because it's "Thou shall not MURDER".

Is killing the child of an enemy 'murder'?
What about killing someone who worships a different deity?

 

[Shogun]

Is killing the child of an enemy 'murder'?
What about killing someone who worships a different deity?

hey, I don't have a dog in that race. I'm just clarifying what you see as a conflicting piece of scripture. The translation is Murder not Kill. Though, I'd be interested to see what scripture you use from the NT that validates killing... We can all agree that the OT is a violent sack of shit but thats not the covenant that christians take their name from.

 

[Mr. President]

Can you present your case Shogun that way I can be fully educated on your belief before responding abrubtly with information that would be irrelevant to your arguement.

 

[AllieBaba]

I don't think there's anything in the NT that validates killing.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Is killing the child of an enemy 'murder'?
What about killing someone who worships a different deity?

Taking of a human life absent moral justification is murder... this is without regard to WHO it is.

What is a valid moral justification? Defending your life or the life of another from unjustified attack which threatens serious boldily injury or death.

This concludes the list of valid moral justifications for the taking of a human life; which would include a prenatal human life.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

hey, I don't have a dog in that race. I'm just clarifying what you see as a conflicting piece of scripture. The translation is Murder not Kill. Though, I'd be interested to see what scripture you use from the NT that validates killing... We can all agree that the OT is a violent sack of shit but thats not the covenant that christians take their name from.

As usual you're wrong, cock-polisher; we would not all agree that the Old Testament is anything but the inspired word of God.

It should be noted that Christ made it clear that he did not come to discredit the law... which is expressed in the Old Testament; he said he had not come to change anything in the old law and that the old law was still the law.

 

[Missourian]

Matthew 8

5. And Jesus having entered into Capernaum, there came to him a centurion calling upon him,
6. and saying, 'Sir, my young man hath been laid in the house a paralytic, fearfully afflicted,'
7. and Jesus saith to him, 'I, having come, will heal him.'
8. And the centurion answering said, 'Sir, I am not worthy that thou mayest enter under my roof, but only say a word, and my servant shall be healed;
9. for I also am a man under authority, having under myself soldiers, and I say to this one, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Be coming, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doth [it].'
10. And Jesus having heard, did wonder, and said to those following, 'Verily I say to you, not even in Israel so great faith have I found;

Acts 10

1. And there was a certain man in Cesarea, by name Cornelius, a centurion from a band called Italian,
2. pious, and fearing God with all his house, doing also many kind acts to the people, and beseeching God always,
3. he saw in a vision manifestly, as it were the ninth hour of the day, a messenger of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, 'Cornelius;'
4. and he having looked earnestly on him, and becoming afraid, said, 'What is it, Lord?' And he said to him, 'Thy prayers and thy kind acts came up for a memorial before God,
5. and now send men to Joppa, and send for a certain one Simon, who is surnamed Peter,
6. this one doth lodge with a certain Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea; this one shall speak to thee what it behoveth thee to do.'
7. And when the messenger who is speaking to Cornelius went away, having called two of his domestics, and a pious soldier of those waiting on him continually,

22. And they said, 'Cornelius, a centurion, a man righteous and fearing God, well testified to, also, by all the nation of the Jews, was divinely warned by a holy messenger to send for thee, to his house, and to hear sayings from thee.'

.

 

[WhiteLion]

As usual you're wrong, cock-polisher; we would not all agree that the Old Testament is anything but the inspired word of God.

It should be noted that Christ made it clear that he did not come to discredit the law... which is expressed in the Old Testament; he said he had not come to change anything in the old law and that the old law was still the law.

Jesus said he came to fulfil the OT Law not abolish it your right again PubliusInfinitu
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[Diuretic]

Well, exactly how literal should the Bible be taken? Wasn't it taken 100% literally 1000 years ago?
Have we evolved to be 'less in need' of the original message?
Which parts did God 'sort of' mean, and which parts was he serious about?

Seems a tricky thing to chop up parts of it and say 'these ones are true' but 'these ones over here are a nice read, but take them too seriously'.

No, that's not how it goes, hermeneutics - interpretation of texts - is the key.

 

[WhiteLion]

Is killing the child of an enemy 'murder'?
What about killing someone who worships a different deity?

I do know one thing, you cannot be a Christian in righteous conscious and vote for a candidate that condones Abortion butchery and Homosexual marrige all of which are against the natural breath inspired WORD of GOD.
To go against the tide of normality is bravery to go against your better conscious is soulless...Whitelion
Take the 6,000,000 jews exterminated in the ovens at Autzwitz and divide it into the 40,000,000 American Christian babies Aborted in the USA since 1974-2007 and counting and the quotient is 6.6666666666666(mark of the beast) into infinity...but what the HELL, whos counting right???(GOD IS)...When will we ever learn we cannot live in a world with out first realizing that GOD is all that holds it together... When the Christians are raptured out of the world so will be the tide barrier("Holy Ghost" comforter to the believer), the Holy Ghost is the only thing stopping fullblown overkill mark it down...Hells Bells is ringing, not a matter of "IF" just matter of when...from the looks of things very soon... so sit back and chalk it all up to religious fools, laugh it off, take another swig of booze to numb the horrid realities to come....

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- Pastor Martin Niemoller

The USA two-party system(Republicans and Democrats) is morally bankrupt. Here's what George Washington had to say about it. "It serves to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration ... agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one … against another … it opens the door to foreign influence and corruption … thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another." Over 200 years ago, George Washington, our first president knew that we would come to this point. So don't pretend that your party is fighting power for principal. They're fighting principally for power.

 

[editec]

I know this post may be inflammatory, but I am interested in actually understanding why it’s ok for Christians to kill for the state,

Cognitive dissonance

why would JC approve?

What makes you think JC would approve?

"Thou shall not kill"

There's no fine print to mitigate that commandment, is there?

 

[Shogun]

As usual you're wrong, cock-polisher; we would not all agree that the Old Testament is anything but the inspired word of God.

It should be noted that Christ made it clear that he did not come to discredit the law... which is expressed in the Old Testament; he said he had not come to change anything in the old law and that the old law was still the law.

uh, which is why every martyr from stephen to simon were busy out forming the jesus underground, eh stupid? You can go ahead and think "inspired' if you need to.. but the OT is a giant bowl of violence that clearly conflicts with the message of jebus.

she bears and prophets, dickum head.. spare us the diatribe about unborn babies if YOU are going to pretend that a god who sent BEARS to kill KIDS for the sake of a bald jew's pride is the same message of the NT's jebus.

 

[WhiteLion]

uh, which is why every martyr from stephen to simon were busy out forming the jesus underground, eh stupid? You can go ahead and think "inspired' if you need to.. but the OT is a giant bowl of violence that clearly conflicts with the message of jebus.

she bears and prophets, dickum head.. spare us the diatribe about unborn babies if YOU are going to pretend that a god who sent BEARS to kill KIDS for the sake of a bald jew's pride is the same message of the NT's jebus.

she bears and prophets, dickum head.. spare us the diatribe about unborn babies if YOU are going to pretend that a god who sent BEARS to kill KIDS for the sake of a bald jew's pride is the same message of the NT's jebus.[/QUOTE]
Indeed you are a lunacidal MANIC...

 

[WhiteLion]

Cognitive dissonance




What makes you think JC would approve?

"Thou shall not kill"

There's no fine print to mitigate that commandment, is there?

Your taking that out of context that was a reference to peace time law and had no relevance whatsoever to the defence and preservation of a righteous nation...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 10:34. Jesus says, "Do not think that I am come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."
John 2:15-16 "When he had made a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables."
1 Peter 2:13-17 13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men(YOU).

16 [Act] as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but [use it] as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Romans 13:1-2 1.Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2.Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


Knowing these scriptures would say enough that Jesus the Christ supports all OT war activities when necessary to preserve HIS WORD and the might of righteous nations.......

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon [1] his shoulder,
and his name shall be called [2]
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

 

[Shogun]

she bears and prophets, dickum head.. spare us the diatribe about unborn babies if YOU are going to pretend that a god who sent BEARS to kill KIDS for the sake of a bald jew's pride is the same message of the NT's jebus.

Indeed you are a lunacidal MANIC...[/QUOTE]

parse the logic, nutter. Your god doesn't sound too concerned about the lives of kids if all it takes to condemn a few to the jaws of a fucking bear are some bald jokes.

LUNACIDAL MANIC?





Oh, and if you think that whole "Bring the Sword" quote has anything to do with violence then you really are a fucking idiot.



34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.



sheesh, dogma junkies..