Christians - Predestination: Yes or No?

[Mudda]

It's a guideline. Ultimately, the are 2 truths - there is 1 God. Jesus died for our sins so we can be acceptable in God's sight so we can live with him forever.

The Devil/Satan loves for people to get tangled up I the details.

If you choose not to believe, that is your choice (unless you believe in Predestination)

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul’s statement, “Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, “Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it” (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God’s loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

The word “forgiveness” or “pardon” (in Hebrew, s‑l‑h) appears for the first time in the story of the golden calf: “Pardon our iniquity and our sin” (Exod. 34:9).The story of the spies contains a similar idea: “Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to Your great kindness, as You have tolerated [carried] this people ever since Egypt” (Num. 13:5).This text is followed by the verse that is central to the Yom Kippur liturgy: “And the Lord said, ‘I pardon, as you have asked'” (Num. 14:37).

These narratives establish the concept of the God of Israel as a God of mercy and forgiveness. In revealing His nature to Moses, God indicates His forgiving nature much more fully than He did in the Ten Commandments. God emphasizes mercy, “carrying sin” and extending lovingkindness far beyond the extent of punishment. Thus, Moses learns that God’s essence is not only His absolute Being and His absolute freedom, but His fundamental mercy. It is not surprising that the passage in which these attributes of God are detailed (Exod. 34:6‑7) became the cornerstone of the liturgy of forgiveness during the High Holy Day season.

Thank you for being civil in this matter and thank you for the knowledge you shared.

You mean his knowledge of copy&paste?

No, posting what Judaism teaches, base on the Torah or what Judaism teaches and is the basis for. Judaism isn't christianity without the christian god jesus

Jesus was just a Jewish mole.

 

[RodISHI]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

Pharaoh still had his own mind to consult. He still had his counselors to listen to. His heart was hardened but it wasn't shut down.

What's the context of the passage? Do you think God hardened Pharoah's heart to just make it harder for Pharoah to make the right decision? This story is about Pharoah not freeing the slaves because God didn't yet want him to - in order to display His power over life and death to the Egyptians and, more importantly, the Jews.

My point is we are not puppets on God's string. That includes Pharoah. If you want context, refresh your mind by reading the entire relevant passage and use your God given mind to think about it.

I understand your point, but the passage is clear:

Exodus 7:3-4

But I will make Pharaoh’s heart hard. So I will do many powerful works for the people to see in the land of Egypt. 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay My hand on Egypt.

I don't think we're puppets but Christianity has yet to come up with a way to reconcile that God knows all, has a plan, is Just and Love, allows suffering and injustice, and needs you to accept His son of your own freewill to be saved. The problem of suffering. The paradox of omniscience and omnipotence. The paradox of omniscience and freewill. The paradox of a just God who commits injustices. And the paradox of an omnipotent and just God who allows injustice.

If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, what then? Jesus would have turned himself in to the Romans? If so, then why didn't he do so before Judas betrayed him?

Perhaps understanding the first verses describing how this that is written in the Bible are the events of the hosts of heaven and earth may help (Genesis). Along with knowing what a pharaoh host is.

The names are speaking of or defining that type of heavenly earthly spiritual host. The spiritual beings that were planted into earth that rule over the unruly (carnally minded flesh) human. If one cannot believe that Jesus Christ is with you; you cannot get to the first base in trying to determine it all as it is just speculation and guessing at that point.

A pharaoh is a great king with a little lantern that rules over egypt. Egypt is speaking about a place in the spirit in the lands (portions within each individual human - adam also called red earth) of the human (i.e. you). Egypt 'double straights- that place of duality and stress within humans where the spiritual wars and battles are. Those battles are between desires of the carnally minded worldly human being and the emotions of desiring to be a child of God are within'. Spiritually speaking a lot of egyptian pharaohs running loose proclaiming the good news not knowing a disaster is looming at their (carnal) door step.

Pastors, preachers and spiritual people have taught for years about that personal relationship with Jesus Christ 'anointed with Jehovah's salvation with us' but then most could go no further in that teaching as they could only teach what they knew, had been gifted with or understood. If you have not learned something or been given a gift naturally to know or understand something you can only share or teach within the limitations of what you know or have experienced. Although many along the way do try to adjust, estimate, speculate or guess at what it all means. For some it is merely a matter of one Epiphany at a time.

 

[RodISHI]

.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

You still clinging onto that book of bullshit after it's been shown to be nothing but heresay and myths?

Since you do not have the understanding of it yet, you call it bullshit. You will learn your lesson after a while just as hangover said. Then, you will graduate to another class where you will learn other lessons or be flunked and repeat it until you learned it and move on again.

That repeat is called "sleeping in the dust of the earth". A seed buried under the dirt far enough can stay dormant for a very long time.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

Yes, and He gave us permission to exercise free will. He could have designed us without it, He could override it now if He wanted, but He didn't and doesn't.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God gave us free will. We are not puppets on strings playing out a predestined drama.

And yet God repeatedly hardened Pharaoh's heart. And someone had to betray Jesus so He could fulfill His destiny.

But did He make Judas betray Jesus, or did He simply know that Judas would do so?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The Bible specifically says the Pharaoh was letting the Jews go (repeatedly) until God made him change his mind.

And Jesus wasn't going to end up on the Cross if someone didn't drop a dime on him.

Well, again, all that means is that God made His plans based on knowing who Judas was and what choices he would make. But knowing someone's choices and making that person make them are two different things.

 

[Bonzi]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

Yes, and He gave us permission to exercise free will. He could have designed us without it, He could override it now if He wanted, but He didn't and doesn't.

So, when God turned Job over to Satan (with the stipulation he could not kill Job) - God already knew that Job would not curse or turn his back on God. Although, Job still had the choice to turn his back on God.

I think it's hard for people to wrap their head around this concept.

 

[Bonzi]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

 

[Iceweasel]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

 

[Bonzi]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

It's a running debate. Probably something the human mind can not comprehend. But, ponder these scriptures....

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

 

[Iceweasel]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

It's a running debate. Probably something the human mind can not comprehend. But, ponder these scriptures....

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Well, those are all OT quotes but the more reasonable interpretation, meaning consistency, is that god establishes the way. Not that he determined your end result and the fix is in. Just because people produce arguments doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Bonzi]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

It's a running debate. Probably something the human mind can not comprehend. But, ponder these scriptures....

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Well, those are all OT quotes but the more reasonable interpretation, meaning consistency, is that god establishes the way. Not that he determined your end result and the fix is in. Just because people produce arguments doesn't mean it's right.

No just something to think about....

Either we were born with free will nor not.
If we have free will, it's hard for my mind to understand how God can possibly be 100% "sovereign"

 

[Iceweasel]

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

It's a running debate. Probably something the human mind can not comprehend. But, ponder these scriptures....

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Well, those are all OT quotes but the more reasonable interpretation, meaning consistency, is that god establishes the way. Not that he determined your end result and the fix is in. Just because people produce arguments doesn't mean it's right.

No just something to think about....

Either we were born with free will nor not.
If we have free will, it's hard for my mind to understand how God can possibly be 100% "sovereign"

If there is no free will then the message of the bible is useless. Can you be sovereign over an ant farm? Of course but that doesn't mean you control the ants.

 

[Bonzi]

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

It's a running debate. Probably something the human mind can not comprehend. But, ponder these scriptures....

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Well, those are all OT quotes but the more reasonable interpretation, meaning consistency, is that god establishes the way. Not that he determined your end result and the fix is in. Just because people produce arguments doesn't mean it's right.

No just something to think about....

Either we were born with free will nor not.
If we have free will, it's hard for my mind to understand how God can possibly be 100% "sovereign"

If there is no free will then the message of the bible is useless. Can you be sovereign over an ant farm? Of course but that doesn't mean you control the ants.

I agree. It's hard to wrap your head around it. Like a puzzle that can't be solved.... (of course, I can't even solve Rubik's Cube!)

 

[Iceweasel]

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

It's a running debate. Probably something the human mind can not comprehend. But, ponder these scriptures....

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Well, those are all OT quotes but the more reasonable interpretation, meaning consistency, is that god establishes the way. Not that he determined your end result and the fix is in. Just because people produce arguments doesn't mean it's right.

No just something to think about....

Either we were born with free will nor not.
If we have free will, it's hard for my mind to understand how God can possibly be 100% "sovereign"

If there is no free will then the message of the bible is useless. Can you be sovereign over an ant farm? Of course but that doesn't mean you control the ants.

I agree. It's hard to wrap your head around it. Like a puzzle that can't be solved.... (of course, I can't even solve Rubik's Cube!)

I solved it, sovereign doesn't mean micro-managed. I don't ponder those things anyway, it's only difficult when you try to fit beliefs into a packaged set of goods that came from multiple sources over a long period of time.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, again, all that means is that God made His plans based on knowing who Judas was and what choices he would make. But knowing someone's choices and making that person make them are two different things.

Perhaps not. What about God made His plan about sending Christ to the world announcing repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Simply turn from disobedience to obedience and God would take it from there. No need for animal/cereal sacrifices (which some could not afford). Simply turn to God, love Him and love/care for your fellowman.

People could receive this news with rejoicing, spread it all throughout the world, and Jesus could have died a natural death (or ascended). Or, some people might fight it, and if the powerful fought it, they would find a way to put Jesus to death.

With either of these two alternatives, there was no need for God to plan to have one of Jesus' close friends and associates betray him. I think that came later and played into the second alternative. That second alternative didn't need to have a close friend betray Jesus.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

I can't even imagine what the point of the whole Creation exercise would be if humans were just puppets following a set pattern of actions.

 

[Iceweasel]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

I can't even imagine what the point of the whole Creation exercise would be if humans were just puppets following a set pattern of actions.

Or why bother. God can make robots too, I'm sure.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

I'm not sure what God's sovereignty has to do with predestination.

If he's sovereign and nothing happens without his direction or permission (by the definition of sovereign) this would mean NOTHING, including if we go to Heaven or Hell. He is not entirely sovereign if he has no control over whether we go to heaven or hell.

Exactly where does the bible say God is directing your every movement? That would imply you have no control or responsibility, which is the opposite of what I got out of it.

I can't even imagine what the point of the whole Creation exercise would be if humans were just puppets following a set pattern of actions.

Or why bother. God can make robots too, I'm sure.

I'm sure He could. I just can't imagine why He would want to.