Zone1 I say there is more to Jesus's Death on the Cross than salvation

[ninja007]

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church here. Who knows what any given clergyman would think of what I am saying here?

I just think that, while Salvation is the Number One Reason for Jesus dying on the Cross, there are other things we can glean from said Cross.

When I look @ a crucifix, I sometimes think: Yeh, Jesus... You are still on that Cross because Your people are on various crosses.. (He said we would be "hated by all" because of Him, so there's that in all Christians' lives)

People who say Jesus did it all and there's nothing more to it... are not correct.

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

It isn't just Protestants who are (likely) befuddled by that one. I never understood it myself, to speak of, until recently.

Christians have sufferings Jesus never had.. He was not married, for instance. So married people have crosses He didn't have.. (We all know what a huge cross the former Mrs Kanye West must have had... for example).

?

 

[Vastator]

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church here. Who knows what any given clergyman would think of what I am saying here?

I just think that, while Salvation is the Number One Reason for Jesus dying on the Cross, there are other things we can glean from said Cross.

When I look @ a crucifix, I sometimes think: Yeh, Jesus... You are still on that Cross because Your people are on various crosses.. (He said we would be "hated by all" because of Him, so there's that in all Christians' lives)

People who say Jesus did it all and there's nothing more to it... are not correct.

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

It isn't just Protestants who are (likely) befuddled by that one. I never understood it myself, to speak of, until recently.

Christians have sufferings Jesus never had.. He was not married, for instance. So married people have crosses He didn't have.. (We all know what a huge cross the former Mrs Kanye West must have had... for example).

Chapter, and verse? Thanks in advance...

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

No. It doesn't.

 

[initforme]

The less fortunate(less successful) will inherit long before any crazy wealthy person does.

 

[surada]

I don’t know Julie Green. Nor does it matter. You are a doubter like most who don’t believe in God nor follow the Bible. And once again you dodge the questions. This makes you look stupid and no one takes you seriously. Except others with the same thoughts.

I'm not a Mormon...so there's that.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Another thing we can glean from glancing at a Crucifix or praying the rosary

What Jesus went through, we must also go through... not the exact same Torment, obviously, but....

Life for a true Christian on Planet E is not always fun-- or even just OK

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm not a Mormon...so there's that.

Dodging again. Why? What do you fear?

 

[surada]

Dodging again. Why? What do you fear?

You clearly have Joseph Smith, the Nephites and Lamanites. Why would I be afraid?

 

[Cougarbear]

You clearly have Joseph Smith, the Nephites and Lamanites. Why would I be afraid?

Because you don't answer the question(s).

 

[luiza]

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church here. Who knows what any given clergyman would think of what I am saying here?

I just think that, while Salvation is the Number One Reason for Jesus dying on the Cross, there are other things we can glean from said Cross.

When I look @ a crucifix, I sometimes think: Yeh, Jesus... You are still on that Cross because Your people are on various crosses.. (He said we would be "hated by all" because of Him, so there's that in all Christians' lives)

People who say Jesus did it all and there's nothing more to it... are not correct.

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

It isn't just Protestants who are (likely) befuddled by that one. I never understood it myself, to speak of, until recently.

Christians have sufferings Jesus never had.. He was not married, for instance. So married people have crosses He didn't have.. (We all know what a huge cross the former Mrs Kanye West must have had... for example).

Didn't that Jesus guy do well .
Bought from the cross by the Arimathea man and then preached in Asia Minor until AD 62 with his eldest son .

Why did Nicea ban all mention of that ?
Fake News .

 

[forkintheroad7]

Didn't that Jesus guy do well .
Bought from the cross by the Arimathea man and then preached in Asia Minor until AD 62 with his eldest son .

Why did Nicea ban all mention of that ?
Fake News .

I see you are back to loony tunes

I don't even know what you are saying here. But in any case, i am definitely not in the mood to discuss religion when one party doesn't begin to understand the religion of the other..

 

[Cougarbear]

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church here. Who knows what any given clergyman would think of what I am saying here?

I just think that, while Salvation is the Number One Reason for Jesus dying on the Cross, there are other things we can glean from said Cross.

When I look @ a crucifix, I sometimes think: Yeh, Jesus... You are still on that Cross because Your people are on various crosses.. (He said we would be "hated by all" because of Him, so there's that in all Christians' lives)

People who say Jesus did it all and there's nothing more to it... are not correct.

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

It isn't just Protestants who are (likely) befuddled by that one. I never understood it myself, to speak of, until recently.

Christians have sufferings Jesus never had.. He was not married, for instance. So married people have crosses He didn't have.. (We all know what a huge cross the former Mrs Kanye West must have had... for example).

So, you are wrong about Jesus not suffering what we suffer now. He atoned for all sins of sinners of his past, present and future. He went down lower than hell and rose to the highest of eternal resurrected life. And his atonement is enough for salvation for those that eventually bow their knees and confess Jesus is the Christ.
Now, for exaltation in the highest kingdom of heaven, exaltation, we can obtain after all we can do. But that’s a Mormon doctrine and I agree with it. We have to give all we can to building up the kingdom of God on the earth. We have to make restitution to those we have hurt to the best of our abilities.

 

[Ace Nova]

I was following you until I got to this point. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee or something (?)

In my humble opinion:

- Jesus stated that he came to help the "sick" not necessarily those who were/are already "righteous".

Luke 5:31-33

Jesus said to them in reply, “It is not the healthy who need a physician, but rather those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

What does this mean? In the book of Isaiah, God states that if you live according to what he favors - you will be redeemed:

Isaiah 58:

This rather is the type of fast that I wish:
to loosen the fetters of injustice,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to set free those who are oppressed
and to break every yoke,
7 to share your bread with the hungry
and to offer shelter to the homeless poor,
to clothe the naked when you behold them
and not turn your back on your own kin.
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your wound will quickly be healed;
your righteousness will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9 Then, when you call, the Lord will answer;
you will cry out for help,
and he will say, “Here I am.”
If you cease to tolerate the yoke of oppression,
the pointing of fingers[a] and malicious words,
10 if you offer your food to the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the afflicted,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like midday.
11 The Lord will guide you continually
and satisfy your needs in the barren desert.
He will strengthen your limbs,
and you will be like a watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never run dry.
12 Your ancient ruins will be rebuilt,
constructed on foundations from generations past.
You will be called the rebuilder of broken walls
and the restorer of ruined streets and dwellings.

In Genesis 18:

Abraham was asking the Lord what it would take to spare Sodom (or almost any other place/city/group of people)

29 Abraham spoke again and said, “What if you find forty there?” He answered, “I will not do it, for the sake of those forty.” 30 And again he said, “Let my Lord not grow impatient with me if I continue to speak; what if thirty are found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 Once again he said, “Look how I dare to talk to my Lord! What if you find twenty there?” He said, “I will not destroy it, for the sake of those twenty.”

32 Yet again he said, “My Lord, do not grow impatient if I speak still another time; what if ten are found there?” He answered, “I will not destroy it, for the sake of the ten.” 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent.


To me, this shows that God is one of mercy and justice - he will not destroy many for the sake of a righteous few. This theme is also repeated in Matthew 24 when Jesus was speaking about "End times":

21 For at that time there will be great suffering that has not been equaled since the beginning of the world until now, and will never again be duplicated. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened."

Showing again God's mercy on those he favors (live lives according to his way) - he will cut short the "days of suffering" for the sake of "the elect".

Jesus came to teach those not familiar (or had fallen off the path) a way in which would be favorable to God - a new way "of thinking/living" - "Loving one another" - "Forgiveness/Mercy/Helping the less fortunate"

Ezekiel 18:

21 However, if the wicked renounce all of the sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is right and just, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the crimes that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they shall live because of the righteous deeds that they have done 23 Do I derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? asks the Lord God. Would I not rather rejoice to see them turn away from their wickedness and live?

27 Similarly, when those who are wicked turn away from the wickedness that they have committed and do what is right and just, they shall save their life. 28 Since they have chosen to renounce all of the evil ways that they have followed, they shall surely live; they shall not die.

Romans 6:

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift freely given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This shows that if people follow the way Jesus taught - (That was also taught in the Old Testament through the Prophets but was not understood by some) then they would "Live and not die".

Jesus was accused of blasphemy and treason. Blasphemy because he referred to God as his heavenly Father. Treason because people referred to him as "King of the Jews". When questioned by the Sanhedrin/Pilate whether he was "The Messiah/King of the Jews/Son of God" (This would mean treason against Rome, insinuating that Jesus was stating that he is King - not Caesar or Herrod - who was appointed by Rome)

Jesus responded, "You say I am."

Why did Jesus respond this way? To show that they were falsely accusing him - Jesus had already spoken/taught the differences between his teachings/ways/ministry and to those of Caesar/Earthly Kingdoms:

Mark 12:

13 God or Caesar.[c] Then they sent some Pharisees and Herodians to trap him in what he said. 14 They came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are truthful and are not concerned with anyone’s opinion no matter what his station in life. Rather, you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it lawful or not for us to pay taxes to Caesar? Should we pay them or not?”

15 He was aware of their hypocrisy and said to them, “Why are you trying to trap me? Bring me a denarius[d] and let me examine it.” 16 When they brought one, he asked them, “Whose image is this, and whose inscription?” They replied and said to him, “Caesar’s.” 17 Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what is due to Caesar, and to God what is due to God.” His reply left them completely amazed at him.

By falsely accusing him of being, "King of the Jews" (As in part of or in conflict of Caesar/Herrod) - When in fact Jesus had already stated that "What is Caesar's is Caesar's" (Him not being that by his own words and teachings) they by default were stating that "he was of God" - which is why when asked if he was "The Son of God" he also responded "You say I am"

"By falsely accusing me of being opposed to Caesar (or being a part of that type of Kingdom) as an Earthly King (When I am not by my own teachings) then you are stating that I am from God to all those who understand my teachings."

John 37:

37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”



If the followers of Jesus follow his teachings - "Loving God with all their hearts, with all their minds, with all their souls and all their strength" and "Love their neighbor as themselves" - as well as the rest of Jesus' teachings of forgiveness, mercy, grace - they are repenting from the ways of the world (Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, intolerance of one another, persecution of those less fortunate/different/the poor, condemning the afflicted, idolizing only the flesh/ignoring the soul/spirit, etc) they will be "reborn" into the Kingdom Jesus spoke of - Jesus becomes "The Christ" - proving his accusers wrong and glorifying God - "Rising from death - being seated at the Right Hand of The Father (Justice through Mercy/Loving One Another). Jesus - (and his teachings) - his sacrifice "for the sake of many" becomes the new eternal covenant with God - a new way of living that defeats death by the forgiveness of sins - Justice through Mercy. Sin does not lead to death if one's sins are "forgiven/forgotten".

The accusers then are guilty of condemning the innocent - which the penalty would be death - by their own accord. They can only be redeemed/saved from death by confessing/repenting of their ways - and following the path of forgiveness/mercy - creating a new way of living for all who follow the way.

On the other hand - if so called "followers of Jesus" do not repent from the "ways of the world" - they do not prove the accusers wrong by their lives - they become "false prophets" - justifying the accusers and condemning themselves as "False Prophets". They will be judged according to the ways of the world that they chose to follow - they will be "judged the same way they judged others" - For they claimed to be followers of Jesus yet they refused to take the "planks out of their own eyes" (repentance) before trying to take the "splinter out of their brother's eyes" - those that profess certain ways to salvation yet they do not follow (or may not even understand) the way they claim to follow.

That is why - to this very day - as stated in Luke 17:

20 The Coming of the Kingdom of God.[f] Once, the Pharisees asked him when the kingdom of God was coming. He answered, “The coming of the kingdom of God will not occur with signs that can be observed. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

For many - the true followers of Jesus' way - the Kingdom of God is within them and from within it manifests and becomes the world in which they live.


Does this mean certain people can't or won't be redeemed? Quite the opposite - These passages may open the doors to salvation for many - even those that may not know or understand. Following a life of "Justice through Mercy, love, forgiveness, kindness to one another, etc " as a testament Glorifying God may require it, in my humble opinion.

 

[surada]

Because you don't answer the question(s).

Sorry. I'm not afraid.. I'm just not impressed with modern day prophets. I was raised in very traditional Christianity.

 

[surada]

In my humble opinion:

- Jesus stated that he came to help the "sick" not necessarily those who were/are already "righteous".

Luke 5:31-33

Jesus said to them in reply, “It is not the healthy who need a physician, but rather those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

What does this mean? In the book of Isaiah, God states that if you live according to what he favors - you will be redeemed:

Isaiah 58:

This rather is the type of fast that I wish:
to loosen the fetters of injustice,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to set free those who are oppressed
and to break every yoke,
7 to share your bread with the hungry
and to offer shelter to the homeless poor,
to clothe the naked when you behold them
and not turn your back on your own kin.
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your wound will quickly be healed;
your righteousness will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9 Then, when you call, the Lord will answer;
you will cry out for help,
and he will say, “Here I am.”
If you cease to tolerate the yoke of oppression,
the pointing of fingers[a] and malicious words,
10 if you offer your food to the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the afflicted,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like midday.
11 The Lord will guide you continually
and satisfy your needs in the barren desert.
He will strengthen your limbs,
and you will be like a watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never run dry.
12 Your ancient ruins will be rebuilt,
constructed on foundations from generations past.
You will be called the rebuilder of broken walls
and the restorer of ruined streets and dwellings.

In Genesis 18:

Abraham was asking the Lord what it would take to spare Sodom (or almost any other place/city/group of people)

29 Abraham spoke again and said, “What if you find forty there?” He answered, “I will not do it, for the sake of those forty.” 30 And again he said, “Let my Lord not grow impatient with me if I continue to speak; what if thirty are found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 Once again he said, “Look how I dare to talk to my Lord! What if you find twenty there?” He said, “I will not destroy it, for the sake of those twenty.”

32 Yet again he said, “My Lord, do not grow impatient if I speak still another time; what if ten are found there?” He answered, “I will not destroy it, for the sake of the ten.” 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he went on his way, and Abraham returned to his tent.


To me, this shows that God is one of mercy and justice - he will not destroy many for the sake of a righteous few. This theme is also repeated in Matthew 24 when Jesus was speaking about "End times":

21 For at that time there will be great suffering that has not been equaled since the beginning of the world until now, and will never again be duplicated. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened."

Showing again God's mercy on those he favors (live lives according to his way) - he will cut short the "days of suffering" for the sake of "the elect".

Jesus came to teach those not familiar (or had fallen off the path) a way in which would be favorable to God - a new way "of thinking/living" - "Loving one another" - "Forgiveness/Mercy/Helping the less fortunate"

Ezekiel 18:

21 However, if the wicked renounce all of the sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is right and just, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the crimes that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they shall live because of the righteous deeds that they have done 23 Do I derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? asks the Lord God. Would I not rather rejoice to see them turn away from their wickedness and live?

27 Similarly, when those who are wicked turn away from the wickedness that they have committed and do what is right and just, they shall save their life. 28 Since they have chosen to renounce all of the evil ways that they have followed, they shall surely live; they shall not die.

Romans 6:

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift freely given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This shows that if people follow the way Jesus taught - (That was also taught in the Old Testament through the Prophets but was not understood by some) then they would "Live and not die".

Jesus was accused of blasphemy and treason. Blasphemy because he referred to God as his heavenly Father. Treason because people referred to him as "King of the Jews". When questioned by the Sanhedrin/Pilate whether he was "The Messiah/King of the Jews/Son of God" (This would mean treason against Rome, insinuating that Jesus was stating that he is King - not Caesar or Herrod - who was appointed by Rome)

Jesus responded, "You say I am."

Why did Jesus respond this way? To show that they were falsely accusing him - Jesus had already spoken/taught the differences between his teachings/ways/ministry and to those of Caesar/Earthly Kingdoms:

Mark 12:

13 God or Caesar.[c] Then they sent some Pharisees and Herodians to trap him in what he said. 14 They came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are truthful and are not concerned with anyone’s opinion no matter what his station in life. Rather, you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it lawful or not for us to pay taxes to Caesar? Should we pay them or not?”

15 He was aware of their hypocrisy and said to them, “Why are you trying to trap me? Bring me a denarius[d] and let me examine it.” 16 When they brought one, he asked them, “Whose image is this, and whose inscription?” They replied and said to him, “Caesar’s.” 17 Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what is due to Caesar, and to God what is due to God.” His reply left them completely amazed at him.

By falsely accusing him of being, "King of the Jews" (As in part of or in conflict of Caesar/Herrod) - When in fact Jesus had already stated that "What is Caesar's is Caesar's" (Him not being that by his own words and teachings) they by default were stating that "he was of God" - which is why when asked if he was "The Son of God" he also responded "You say I am"

"By falsely accusing me of being opposed to Caesar (or being a part of that type of Kingdom) as an Earthly King (When I am not by my own teachings) then you are stating that I am from God to all those who understand my teachings."

John 37:

37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”



If the followers of Jesus follow his teachings - "Loving God with all their hearts, with all their minds, with all their souls and all their strength" and "Love their neighbor as themselves" - as well as the rest of Jesus' teachings of forgiveness, mercy, grace - they are repenting from the ways of the world (Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, intolerance of one another, persecution of those less fortunate/different/the poor, condemning the afflicted, idolizing only the flesh/ignoring the soul/spirit, etc) they will be "reborn" into the Kingdom Jesus spoke of - Jesus becomes "The Christ" - proving his accusers wrong and glorifying God - "Rising from death - being seated at the Right Hand of The Father (Justice through Mercy/Loving One Another). Jesus - (and his teachings) - his sacrifice "for the sake of many" becomes the new eternal covenant with God - a new way of living that defeats death by the forgiveness of sins - Justice through Mercy. Sin does not lead to death if one's sins are "forgiven/forgotten".

The accusers then are guilty of condemning the innocent - which the penalty would be death - by their own accord. They can only be redeemed/saved from death by confessing/repenting of their ways - and following the path of forgiveness/mercy - creating a new way of living for all who follow the way.

On the other hand - if so called "followers of Jesus" do not repent from the "ways of the world" - they do not prove the accusers wrong by their lives - they become "false prophets" - justifying the accusers and condemning themselves as "False Prophets". They will be judged according to the ways of the world that they chose to follow - they will be "judged the same way they judged others" - For they claimed to be followers of Jesus yet they refused to take the "planks out of their own eyes" (repentance) before trying to take the "splinter out of their brother's eyes" - those that profess certain ways to salvation yet they do not follow (or may not even understand) the way they claim to follow.

That is why - to this very day - as stated in Luke 17:

20 The Coming of the Kingdom of God.[f] Once, the Pharisees asked him when the kingdom of God was coming. He answered, “The coming of the kingdom of God will not occur with signs that can be observed. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

For many - the true followers of Jesus' way - the Kingdom of God is within them and from within it manifests and becomes the world in which they live.


Does this mean certain people can't or won't be redeemed? Quite the opposite - These passages may open the doors to salvation for many - even those that may not know or understand. Following a life of "Justice through Mercy, love, forgiveness, kindness to one another, etc " as a testament Glorifying God may require it, in my humble opinion.

Are you preaching? Nobody will read your walls of text.

 

[Cougarbear]

Sorry. I'm not afraid.. I'm just not impressed with modern day prophets. I was raised in very traditional Christianity.

Aren’t you tired of having the heavens closed? They are open again. Praise the Lord!

 

[Ace Nova]

Are you preaching? Nobody will read your walls of text.

No definitely not "preaching" - quite the opposite, tbh.

 

[forkintheroad7]

No definitely not "preaching" - quite the opposite, tbh.

Preach on!

We love hearing the Word (which Jesus said to preach)

and many people here definitely need to hear.. every day.. like Catholics do (daily Mass)

 

[Vastator]

No. It doesn't.

Sounds like Mother Theresa who allowed children to suffer because she thought of it as some Holy Rite. Sick, sick people...

 

[forkintheroad7]

Sounds like Mother Theresa who allowed children to suffer because she thought of it as some Holy Rite. Sick, sick people...

so where's the link about Mother Teresa?

I've read many books and articles on her, NEVER heard of this