Christians - Predestination: Yes or No?

[ChrisL]

Why would god require sacrifices? Anyone else care to tackle this question?

 

[ChrisL]

Why are WE held responsible for the alleged sins of a make believe couple called Adam and Eve? Lol. None of this makes any sense at all, except to ancient people who were ignorant as to the actual workings of the world and universe. Only natural that they would attribute natural events to superstitions. The calls for sacrifice are no different than any other religions throughout history, like the Mayans and Greek mythology, etc., etc. Even a child can figure these things out! The only logical explanation that people would believe in this junk is because it's been drilled into their heads since they were small, and they live with the "fear of God." Thankfully SOME of us are strong willed enough to go against the grain.

 

[the_human_being]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No but I believe you will be. I believe those predestinated already will be those resurrected first upon Christ's return to establish His earthly kingdom. These will be raised as Spirit beings like the Christ and the angels are and will be kings, priests, and judges in Christ's earthly kingdom. The rest of the dead will be raised again in human bodies and live in a time when Satan is safely locked away and will have no influence upon them. They will be taught the Truth by those Spirit beings. At the end of the re-education period, Satan will be loosened again to go out and deceive. This time though, if you chose Satan's way, you will be forever destroyed completely, even the memory of you will be destroyed. Then death and hell will finally be destroyed.

 

[Montrovant]

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No but I believe you will be. I believe those predestinated already will be those resurrected first upon Christ's return to establish His earthly kingdom. These will be raised as Spirit beings like the Christ and the angels are and will be kings, priests, and judges in Christ's earthly kingdom. The rest of the dead will be raised again in human bodies and live in a time when Satan is safely locked away and will have no influence upon them. They will be taught the Truth by those Spirit beings. At the end of the re-education period, Satan will be loosened again to go out and deceive. This time though, if you chose Satan's way, you will be forever destroyed completely, even the memory of you will be destroyed. Then death and hell will finally be destroyed.

Is there enough space on the planet for everyone who has ever lived (minus the predestined ones) to be resurrected? Will there be a new Earth where this happens?

 

[ChrisL]

Well, anyways, to ME, all of this talk is just crazy talk. Craaaazy.

 

[the_human_being]

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No but I believe you will be. I believe those predestinated already will be those resurrected first upon Christ's return to establish His earthly kingdom. These will be raised as Spirit beings like the Christ and the angels are and will be kings, priests, and judges in Christ's earthly kingdom. The rest of the dead will be raised again in human bodies and live in a time when Satan is safely locked away and will have no influence upon them. They will be taught the Truth by those Spirit beings. At the end of the re-education period, Satan will be loosened again to go out and deceive. This time though, if you chose Satan's way, you will be forever destroyed completely, even the memory of you will be destroyed. Then death and hell will finally be destroyed.

Is there enough space on the planet for everyone who has ever lived (minus the predestined ones) to be resurrected? Will there be a new Earth where this happens?

I suppose. Isaiah 35 speaks of that time. It says even the deserts will bloom. It will be the Paradise Christ mentioned to the thief on the cross that day. The Bible does however, speak of a new heaven and a new earth when it is finished.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No but I believe you will be. I believe those predestinated already will be those resurrected first upon Christ's return to establish His earthly kingdom. These will be raised as Spirit beings like the Christ and the angels are and will be kings, priests, and judges in Christ's earthly kingdom. The rest of the dead will be raised again in human bodies and live in a time when Satan is safely locked away and will have no influence upon them. They will be taught the Truth by those Spirit beings. At the end of the re-education period, Satan will be loosened again to go out and deceive. This time though, if you chose Satan's way, you will be forever destroyed completely, even the memory of you will be destroyed. Then death and hell will finally be destroyed.

Is there enough space on the planet for everyone who has ever lived (minus the predestined ones) to be resurrected? Will there be a new Earth where this happens?

I suppose. Isaiah 35 speaks of that time. It says even the deserts will bloom. It will be the Paradise Christ mentioned to the thief on the cross that day. The Bible does however, speak of a new heaven and a new earth when it is finished.

Also it speaks of 'not of this world' or not to the human, earthly understanding.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

All parents require some type of 'sacrifice' when their children have done wrong, or broken the rules. (ok, maybe not ALL parents do, but is true with many)
And why do they do that? In order to teach the child a lesson, that when they sin, there will be a consequence and are then required to sacrifice or give up something important to them. And so it is with God.

We are not held responsible for anyone else's sins, but our own.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Some also think that Heaven and Hell aren't places...but more to do with the relationship with Him. Heaven is a life lived in agreement with God and Hell is a life without Him

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Some also think that Heaven and Hell aren't places...but more to do with the relationship with Him. Heaven is a life lived in agreement with God and Hell is a life without Him

That is me... ( no not God but the agreement )

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

God gave us free will. We are not puppets on strings playing out a predestined drama.

If we were we would be Angels!

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

So, God does not determine, before time, if we are to go to Heaven or Hell then, correct?

No, we determine our own destiny... We are not Angels love...

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

And yet the Devil ( Lucifer or Loki or Hades ) can interfere?

 

[Montrovant]

Some also think that Heaven and Hell aren't places...but more to do with the relationship with Him. Heaven is a life lived in agreement with God and Hell is a life without Him

That has always seemed to fit better with the idea of a loving, merciful God than eternal joy or punishment being determined by a single human lifetime.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Some also think that Heaven and Hell aren't places...but more to do with the relationship with Him. Heaven is a life lived in agreement with God and Hell is a life without Him

That has always seemed to fit better with the idea of a loving, merciful God than eternal joy or punishment being determined by a single human lifetime.

And yet it is this relationship that is an important factor. It is our choice in how we develop it, how we respond to it and how much we are willing to invest in it. Just as in any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it. His part of the relationship is there and offered to anyone & everyone, solid & unchanging. It is up to us to make the choice everyday, in every situation we face, to choose with Him or without Him.
As in a parental relationship with their child, as the child grows thru different stages, they are sometimes more dependent on the parent, and other times are more independent &/or rebellious. The parent is always there, loving & unchanging, trying to guide and teach the child thru each stage. During the dependent stages, the child is open to the parents instruction, but during rebellious times the child doesn't want anything to do with the parent, their help or teachings & sometimes even runs away, yells at or calls parent names, etc through it all the parent's love is still there. Ups & downs are just a normal part of any relationship. Once the child becomes matured enough for greater understanding, then they can enjoy a solid relationship together, because it has endured thru trials.
If the child runs away or comes of age & leaves, never to return, they never get to experience the joy and closeness or bond of that relationship. Or they may only call on holidays or when they want something, or only because they think they should because of protocol or something, but that isn't a relationship. They don't want to be there or are only using the parent, won't make time for anything more. This is falsehood and not what God wants from us, He wants our hearts and only wants us as long as we want Him.

 

[Bonzi]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

How do you know?

 

[Bonzi]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

And yet the Devil ( Lucifer or Loki or Hades ) can interfere?

yes God alowed him to mess with Job u have a prob with that?

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

And yet the Devil ( Lucifer or Loki or Hades ) can interfere?

yes God alowed him to mess with Job u have a prob with that?

So stuff happens without God Permission because we live with the free will to either to do right or do wrong. Our story is not written when we are born, but it is a blank page with many, many, many ways to write it, and it is our choice to do good or evil with what is given to us.

If there is a God and Lucifer then they toy with humanity but still in the end we have free will to follow our own paths because we are not Angels and are not predestine...

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

How do you know?

Simple, the day you gave birth to your son was a moment of heaven, and the day when a mother and father lose their child to war is a true moment of hell...

We can bring heaven to us or we can live in the depths of hell and misery, but in the end it is the choice of humanity to do one or the other, and my horse on I am betting on is hell, and not because I am a fan of Lucifer but the reality of humanity being so filled with evil intentions...

After this life I do not know what is beyond, and the few stories of someone rising from the dead ( no not the walking dead ) are just myths to me, and until I see someone come back from the beyond I will focus on that Heaven and Hell are here and it is our choice to either try to make our world a better place or a place where it is miserable and full of hate...

Just my opinion and I know you have your Bible ready to beat me with, and I will just read my prayer book and Tanakh for my guidance or maybe so Taoism meditation would be good for me today...

It is a beautiful day and why waste more of my life on the internet?

( Not saying you're wasting your life but I am love )

 

[Bonzi]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

And yet the Devil ( Lucifer or Loki or Hades ) can interfere?

yes God alowed him to mess with Job u have a prob with that?

So stuff happens without God Permission because we live with the free will to either to do right or do wrong. Our story is not written when we are born, but it is a blank page with many, many, many ways to write it, and it is our choice to do good or evil with what is given to us.

If there is a God and Lucifer then they toy with humanity but still in the end we have free will to follow our own paths because we are not Angels and are not predestine...

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

How do you know?

Simple, the day you gave birth to your son was a moment of heaven, and the day when a mother and father lose their child to war is a true moment of hell...

We can bring heaven to us or we can live in the depths of hell and misery, but in the end it is the choice of humanity to do one or the other, and my horse on I am betting on is hell, and not because I am a fan of Lucifer but the reality of humanity being so filled with evil intentions...

After this life I do not know what is beyond, and the few stories of someone rising from the dead ( no not the walking dead ) are just myths to me, and until I see someone come back from the beyond I will focus on that Heaven and Hell are here and it is our choice to either try to make our world a better place or a place where it is miserable and full of hate...

Just my opinion and I know you have your Bible ready to beat me with, and I will just read my prayer book and Tanakh for my guidance or maybe so Taoism meditation would be good for me today...

It is a beautiful day and why waste more of my life on the internet?

( Not saying you're wasting your life but I am love )

me too...nust keep an open mind and heaett to all rhinvs