Christians - Predestination: Yes or No?

[Compost]

At some point we all have to decide whether to exert a little faith and allow that we will never fully understand God, or to say phooey on that I'll just do my own thing.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

which brings us back to....

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

IMO - Bonzi you have to remember the Bible we know of today, whether you are reading the KJV or some more modern variant...this is a book that has been written and rewritten, condensed, altered, edited etc. etc. 100's if not 1,000's of times, That is a fact, a fact that your minister will not refute. But everyone wants to look at the book we see today - that scholars, who spend their entire careers on religious texts, still to today cannot figure out which specific part of the Bible ancient biblical texts are!! They argue amongst themselves, this one saying Book of Matthew...another saying no..I think that is Luke..another saying it isn't even the Bible...another sating it is a passage not in one of the books that are included in the KJV.
You can't take the Bible you see today literal. It is simply not even close to whatever the original texts was...in fact a great deal of the Bible you see today was written by people who lived 100's of years after Christ reportedly died.

 

[ChrisL]

Errr. No. I don't really believe in any of this kind of stuff, TBH.

 

[Bonzi]

It's a guideline. Ultimately, the are 2 truths - there is 1 God. Jesus died for our sins so we can be acceptable in God's sight so we can live with him forever.

The Devil/Satan loves for people to get tangled up I the details.

If you choose not to believe, that is your choice (unless you believe in Predestination)

 

[the_human_being]

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.

THE REQUIREMENT FOR PERFECTION

I can’t remember how many times I have read or heard that God created Adam and Eve as perfect spiritual specimens of the human race. They were PERFECT in spiritual character, we are told, until Satan deceived Eve and she and Adam then both sinned.

And just where do you suppose they discovered such profound wisdom and knowledge regarding our first parents? Not from the Bible, I can assure you of that. It is but more stupid wisdom from the carnal-minded leaders of the Church. How pray tell, was Adam and Eve Perfect specimens of God’s spiritual character? They were NO SUCH THING!

Here’s the proof: Were our first parents a thousands times more holy, perfect, and righteous in character than our own Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? Read all the accolades that the Father lavishes upon His Son Jesus in the first chapter of Hebrews. Jesus is very GOD! And yet … and YET, we read this:

"For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

And this:

"Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!

Humans can be perfected by MAGIC, but for the very Son of God it took MUCH SUFFERING! When will you stop listening to these charlatans and deceivers?

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).

Are we to believe that our first parents, God’s VERY FIRST attempt at creating Sons and Daughters in His very own Image, FAILED? Do we think that Adam and Eve’s creation was FINISHED before they even drew breath? That they started out, PERFECT, IN GOD’S OWN IMAGE, WITH GOD’S SPIRIT, TOTALLY MATURE, AND THEN MALFUNCTIONED AND FAILED? And God did not see it coming? Was God shocked at this unforeseen bungled attempt at creating obedient children? Did He figure out what went wrong? Did He have a plan to "fix" the malfunctioning humans? Or would He just try over and over and over again billions of times until He got it right? Is this the kind of blasphemous insults we should level against your own CREATOR?

NOTHING HAS EVER MALFUNCTIONED ACCORDING TO GOD’S PLAN!

If anything in the universe has ever malfunctioned contrary to the intention of the Creator and Designer God, then the flaw is in the Inventor, not the invention! GOD IS THE POTTER: WE ARE THE CLAY!

"Has not the Potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto DISHONOUR?" (Rom. 9:21).

Only theologians believe that vessels of "dishonor" malfunction, when in reality they were designed by their Creator for the very PURPOSE of malfunctioning. A malfunctioning, carnal-minded, God-hating, immoral, human slob, is of great value to God. Paul was just such a person before God called him out of Babylon the Great. And now, PAUL IS GREAT! Marvel of marvels, the things that God can do with dung.

And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.

The theory of "free will" is not only totally unscriptural; it is a physiological impossibility. With the same set of circumstances as Adam and Eve faced, every single person who has ever lived would have done the very same thing and sinned. Now then, if free will were a reality, surely at least ONE person would have resisted and willed NOT TO SIN. Do we have proof of what I am saying?

If any man or woman who has ever lived, possessed this thing called "free moral agency" (the ability to make uncaused choices), then surely somewhere at some time at some place on this big broad earth, there would have had to be at least ONE out of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived, who would have used his or her "free will" to choose and will to not sin. There has never been such a person save one, Jesus Christ.

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

What is even more startling is the fact that every person who fights for the right of his "uncaused choices," must still admit that after knowing the truth, having then chosen to stop sinning, nevertheless, continues to sin, day after day after day. Does no one think seriously about the total impossibility of these stupid, stupid, God-defying theories that we call "wisdom?"

"If we say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).

We can come to the place where sin no longer controls us, motivates us, or makes us its slave, but we are still not totally free from all and every sin.

Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that last verse? Is there anyone who doesn’t believe it? Then how is it possible that man has "free will?" If humankind has just as much of a "free will" to choose GOOD as they have a "free will" to choose BAD, then why oh why has not one of the fifty billion, in the history of the world, used his free will to choose good and to not sin? What earthly or heavenly good is it to claim that mankind has free moral agency if not one in fifty billion people has ever been able to successfully use his free will in choosing not to sin? Therefore, God is obligated to have a better solution to the "all have sinned" reality than to burn most of them in a lake of fire for all eternity. Am I going to fast for anyone? Am I making sense to anyone? Is there someone who wishes to counter these facts by continuing to cling to this idol of the heart and still insist that we really do have free will, but it’s just that it malfunctions in 100% of the people who possess it?

when the human "will" does choose what is right and good, there is a God-given cause behind it:

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Let me assure you that there is no Scripture in the Bible that states or endorses the message that is parroted millions and millions of times around the world throughout all generations of Christendom, that:

"For it is YOUR OWN FREE WILL (FREE MORAL AGENCY) which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure." (Sorry, but no scriptural reference can be found for this anti-scriptural statement).

Now then, the above statement regarding "free will" is taught by the Christian community throughout the world, but it is not, I repeat, not, found anywhere in the Bible. However, the statement above it, which says that it is "GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" IS found in all Bibles in (Phil. 2:13)! Everyone reading this paper can now choose [freely?] which statement they will continue to believe. The statement that is taught to the world by the church, but, is not found in the Bible, or the statement that is not taught to the world by the church, but is found in the Bible?

I do believe that I have just presented my readers with a theological dilemma of colossal proportions! If you don’t see it, let me spell it out for you:

Phil. 2:13 contradicts the statement that man has his own "free" will that enables him to both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

The teaching of the Church states that man, by his own "free" will, independent of God, can both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

But Phil. 2:13 contradicts this heresy of the Church by stating that it is

"GOD[and not man’s ‘free’ will] which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."


Man must be MADE to come to Christ and to seek God and live righteously and godly. It is the function of God’s grace that teaches us and chastens us to live godly, not our own supposed "free" wills.

"As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).

"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).

Well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!

"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).

"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

So now how many reading this paper who have a hostility toward God’s Word will at last see the simple Scriptural Truth that I have just presented, and will forsake their old heretical teachings regarding "free" will? None. Only "the few" whom God is calling to be "overcomers" of such rebellion will at last see the Truth with new spiritual eyes.

So let’s drop the grudges we might have inadvertently harbored against our first parents thinking that they ruined our lives by their sins. As for me, I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal—they are kin, you know? And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God—I guarantee you the Scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual fire, which is the second spiritual death.

Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the First Man Adam, there would never have been the Second and Last Man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of ALL. "For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL."

In the fourth chapter of Daniel, God gives King Nebuchadnezzar a 'troubling' dream. Four times in this one chapter we are told "...that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Dan. 4:17, 25, 26 & 32).

According to Daniel chapter four, God rules in the kingdoms of men and 'wills' to 'set up' the "basest of men" over those kingdoms.

Even evil men are under the sovereign rule of the supreme authority according to the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Though troubling to the carnal mind, even this assertion is acknowledged by most Christians.

What saith the scriptures themselves?

"Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL according to HIS GOOD In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE which HE hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF… ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9 and 11).

Let’s add Eph. 1:10 to the mix as well:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Did you read what the scripture says? ALL THINGS!! ALL THINGS! ALL THINGS!

BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. I’d say that certainly should leave little doubt that it means ALL THINGS.

Yes, we 'choose' in all the decisions we make every day, but is this really the result of our free will? What happens when our free will conflicts with "the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL"?

The answer is obvious. There can only be one truly free will to which all others are subordinate. Only One will can work "all things after the counsel of His own will." All other decisions are 'worked', caused by that One will and may appear to be free, but they are always in "all things" caused decisions.

The "first Adam" in the temple of God, "the beast" is loath to leave that temple. He of his own 'free will' will never admit that while yes, he makes choices every day, those choices have nothing to do with 'free will'. Every choice we make, from casually scratching our head to choosing Christ as our savior is a caused choice.

"Having PREDESTINATED US...according to the good pleasure of HIS will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).

If "the very hairs of our heads are numbered", why would we believe that the all-knowing God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears is not also, through the "principalities and powers" at His disposal, causing every trial and test, every chastening and scourging, and yes, causing ALL things especially our very hearts and thoughts and choices "according to the counsel of HIS WILL?"

These are the scriptural truths concerning the extent of the counsel of His will. Nowhere do the scriptures teach otherwise. The fact that God holds us accountable for our sins has nothing whatsoever to do with our being responsible for our wretched actions and condition.

It was God's free will that created us of dust instead of spirit. It is from His hand that every person born comes into this world naked, testifying of our sinful, dying, of the dust composition.

God Himself takes the responsibility for every evil act ever committed (Isa. 45:7), even the most evil act of all time, the death of our sinless, perfect, spotless Savior. (Acts 4:28).

This all being made so clear in scripture, one would expect a just God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears to make provision for the salvation of all of his creatures. Is that indeed the case? Here is what the Savior Himself has to say: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).

 

[Montrovant]

This is actually a question of science, and not religion.

God, being all-knowing, is not restricted by the linear flow of time that we are. Think of it as more of a question of perspective.

Imagine that I built a time machine and traveled into the future to the moment of your death. From my perspective, everything you are going to do, every choice you are going to make...it's already been made.

That doesn't mean you didn't have free will. If I return to this moment, you still have all those freewill choices ahead of you. I just have special knowledge of the final result of the culmination of your choices, and their ultimate results.

The choice is ultimately yours. You know what it takes to get into Heaven...you make the choices that will either get you their, or not. It's just that, without the illusion of the flow of time, looking back from the End of Days, you've already made them.

Except that if those 'choices' are already made, they aren't actually choices. If you cannot make a different decision you do not have a choice. A choice is only a choice if there are multiple possible outcomes.

What you describe is more the appearance of choice. We think we can choose, but we actually cannot.

 

[ChrisL]

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.

THE REQUIREMENT FOR PERFECTION

I can’t remember how many times I have read or heard that God created Adam and Eve as perfect spiritual specimens of the human race. They were PERFECT in spiritual character, we are told, until Satan deceived Eve and she and Adam then both sinned.

And just where do you suppose they discovered such profound wisdom and knowledge regarding our first parents? Not from the Bible, I can assure you of that. It is but more stupid wisdom from the carnal-minded leaders of the Church. How pray tell, was Adam and Eve Perfect specimens of God’s spiritual character? They were NO SUCH THING!

Here’s the proof: Were our first parents a thousands times more holy, perfect, and righteous in character than our own Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? Read all the accolades that the Father lavishes upon His Son Jesus in the first chapter of Hebrews. Jesus is very GOD! And yet … and YET, we read this:

"For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

And this:

"Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!

Humans can be perfected by MAGIC, but for the very Son of God it took MUCH SUFFERING! When will you stop listening to these charlatans and deceivers?

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).

Are we to believe that our first parents, God’s VERY FIRST attempt at creating Sons and Daughters in His very own Image, FAILED? Do we think that Adam and Eve’s creation was FINISHED before they even drew breath? That they started out, PERFECT, IN GOD’S OWN IMAGE, WITH GOD’S SPIRIT, TOTALLY MATURE, AND THEN MALFUNCTIONED AND FAILED? And God did not see it coming? Was God shocked at this unforeseen bungled attempt at creating obedient children? Did He figure out what went wrong? Did He have a plan to "fix" the malfunctioning humans? Or would He just try over and over and over again billions of times until He got it right? Is this the kind of blasphemous insults we should level against your own CREATOR?

NOTHING HAS EVER MALFUNCTIONED ACCORDING TO GOD’S PLAN!

If anything in the universe has ever malfunctioned contrary to the intention of the Creator and Designer God, then the flaw is in the Inventor, not the invention! GOD IS THE POTTER: WE ARE THE CLAY!

"Has not the Potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto DISHONOUR?" (Rom. 9:21).

Only theologians believe that vessels of "dishonor" malfunction, when in reality they were designed by their Creator for the very PURPOSE of malfunctioning. A malfunctioning, carnal-minded, God-hating, immoral, human slob, is of great value to God. Paul was just such a person before God called him out of Babylon the Great. And now, PAUL IS GREAT! Marvel of marvels, the things that God can do with dung.

And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.

The theory of "free will" is not only totally unscriptural; it is a physiological impossibility. With the same set of circumstances as Adam and Eve faced, every single person who has ever lived would have done the very same thing and sinned. Now then, if free will were a reality, surely at least ONE person would have resisted and willed NOT TO SIN. Do we have proof of what I am saying?

If any man or woman who has ever lived, possessed this thing called "free moral agency" (the ability to make uncaused choices), then surely somewhere at some time at some place on this big broad earth, there would have had to be at least ONE out of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived, who would have used his or her "free will" to choose and will to not sin. There has never been such a person save one, Jesus Christ.

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

What is even more startling is the fact that every person who fights for the right of his "uncaused choices," must still admit that after knowing the truth, having then chosen to stop sinning, nevertheless, continues to sin, day after day after day. Does no one think seriously about the total impossibility of these stupid, stupid, God-defying theories that we call "wisdom?"

"If we say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).

We can come to the place where sin no longer controls us, motivates us, or makes us its slave, but we are still not totally free from all and every sin.

Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that last verse? Is there anyone who doesn’t believe it? Then how is it possible that man has "free will?" If humankind has just as much of a "free will" to choose GOOD as they have a "free will" to choose BAD, then why oh why has not one of the fifty billion, in the history of the world, used his free will to choose good and to not sin? What earthly or heavenly good is it to claim that mankind has free moral agency if not one in fifty billion people has ever been able to successfully use his free will in choosing not to sin? Therefore, God is obligated to have a better solution to the "all have sinned" reality than to burn most of them in a lake of fire for all eternity. Am I going to fast for anyone? Am I making sense to anyone? Is there someone who wishes to counter these facts by continuing to cling to this idol of the heart and still insist that we really do have free will, but it’s just that it malfunctions in 100% of the people who possess it?

when the human "will" does choose what is right and good, there is a God-given cause behind it:

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Let me assure you that there is no Scripture in the Bible that states or endorses the message that is parroted millions and millions of times around the world throughout all generations of Christendom, that:

"For it is YOUR OWN FREE WILL (FREE MORAL AGENCY) which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure." (Sorry, but no scriptural reference can be found for this anti-scriptural statement).

Now then, the above statement regarding "free will" is taught by the Christian community throughout the world, but it is not, I repeat, not, found anywhere in the Bible. However, the statement above it, which says that it is "GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" IS found in all Bibles in (Phil. 2:13)! Everyone reading this paper can now choose [freely?] which statement they will continue to believe. The statement that is taught to the world by the church, but, is not found in the Bible, or the statement that is not taught to the world by the church, but is found in the Bible?

I do believe that I have just presented my readers with a theological dilemma of colossal proportions! If you don’t see it, let me spell it out for you:

Phil. 2:13 contradicts the statement that man has his own "free" will that enables him to both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

The teaching of the Church states that man, by his own "free" will, independent of God, can both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

But Phil. 2:13 contradicts this heresy of the Church by stating that it is

"GOD[and not man’s ‘free’ will] which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."


Man must be MADE to come to Christ and to seek God and live righteously and godly. It is the function of God’s grace that teaches us and chastens us to live godly, not our own supposed "free" wills.

"As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).

"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).

Well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!

"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).

"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

So now how many reading this paper who have a hostility toward God’s Word will at last see the simple Scriptural Truth that I have just presented, and will forsake their old heretical teachings regarding "free" will? None. Only "the few" whom God is calling to be "overcomers" of such rebellion will at last see the Truth with new spiritual eyes.

So let’s drop the grudges we might have inadvertently harbored against our first parents thinking that they ruined our lives by their sins. As for me, I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal—they are kin, you know? And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God—I guarantee you the Scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual fire, which is the second spiritual death.

Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the First Man Adam, there would never have been the Second and Last Man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of ALL. "For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL."

In the fourth chapter of Daniel, God gives King Nebuchadnezzar a 'troubling' dream. Four times in this one chapter we are told "...that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Dan. 4:17, 25, 26 & 32).

According to Daniel chapter four, God rules in the kingdoms of men and 'wills' to 'set up' the "basest of men" over those kingdoms.

Even evil men are under the sovereign rule of the supreme authority according to the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Though troubling to the carnal mind, even this assertion is acknowledged by most Christians.

What saith the scriptures themselves?

"Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL according to HIS GOOD In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE which HE hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF… ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9 and 11).

Let’s add Eph. 1:10 to the mix as well:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Did you read what the scripture says? ALL THINGS!! ALL THINGS! ALL THINGS!

BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. I’d say that certainly should leave little doubt that it means ALL THINGS.

Yes, we 'choose' in all the decisions we make every day, but is this really the result of our free will? What happens when our free will conflicts with "the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL"?

The answer is obvious. There can only be one truly free will to which all others are subordinate. Only One will can work "all things after the counsel of His own will." All other decisions are 'worked', caused by that One will and may appear to be free, but they are always in "all things" caused decisions.

The "first Adam" in the temple of God, "the beast" is loath to leave that temple. He of his own 'free will' will never admit that while yes, he makes choices every day, those choices have nothing to do with 'free will'. Every choice we make, from casually scratching our head to choosing Christ as our savior is a caused choice.

"Having PREDESTINATED US...according to the good pleasure of HIS will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).

If "the very hairs of our heads are numbered", why would we believe that the all-knowing God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears is not also, through the "principalities and powers" at His disposal, causing every trial and test, every chastening and scourging, and yes, causing ALL things especially our very hearts and thoughts and choices "according to the counsel of HIS WILL?"

These are the scriptural truths concerning the extent of the counsel of His will. Nowhere do the scriptures teach otherwise. The fact that God holds us accountable for our sins has nothing whatsoever to do with our being responsible for our wretched actions and condition.

It was God's free will that created us of dust instead of spirit. It is from His hand that every person born comes into this world naked, testifying of our sinful, dying, of the dust composition.

God Himself takes the responsibility for every evil act ever committed (Isa. 45:7), even the most evil act of all time, the death of our sinless, perfect, spotless Savior. (Acts 4:28).

This all being made so clear in scripture, one would expect a just God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears to make provision for the salvation of all of his creatures. Is that indeed the case? Here is what the Savior Himself has to say: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).

Why not just post a novel? Gee whiz. TL/DR.

 

[Compost]

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.

THE REQUIREMENT FOR PERFECTION

I can’t remember how many times I have read or heard that God created Adam and Eve as perfect spiritual specimens of the human race. They were PERFECT in spiritual character, we are told, until Satan deceived Eve and she and Adam then both sinned.

And just where do you suppose they discovered such profound wisdom and knowledge regarding our first parents? Not from the Bible, I can assure you of that. It is but more stupid wisdom from the carnal-minded leaders of the Church. How pray tell, was Adam and Eve Perfect specimens of God’s spiritual character? They were NO SUCH THING!

Here’s the proof: Were our first parents a thousands times more holy, perfect, and righteous in character than our own Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? Read all the accolades that the Father lavishes upon His Son Jesus in the first chapter of Hebrews. Jesus is very GOD! And yet … and YET, we read this:

"For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

And this:

"Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!

Humans can be perfected by MAGIC, but for the very Son of God it took MUCH SUFFERING! When will you stop listening to these charlatans and deceivers?

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).

Are we to believe that our first parents, God’s VERY FIRST attempt at creating Sons and Daughters in His very own Image, FAILED? Do we think that Adam and Eve’s creation was FINISHED before they even drew breath? That they started out, PERFECT, IN GOD’S OWN IMAGE, WITH GOD’S SPIRIT, TOTALLY MATURE, AND THEN MALFUNCTIONED AND FAILED? And God did not see it coming? Was God shocked at this unforeseen bungled attempt at creating obedient children? Did He figure out what went wrong? Did He have a plan to "fix" the malfunctioning humans? Or would He just try over and over and over again billions of times until He got it right? Is this the kind of blasphemous insults we should level against your own CREATOR?

NOTHING HAS EVER MALFUNCTIONED ACCORDING TO GOD’S PLAN!

If anything in the universe has ever malfunctioned contrary to the intention of the Creator and Designer God, then the flaw is in the Inventor, not the invention! GOD IS THE POTTER: WE ARE THE CLAY!

"Has not the Potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto DISHONOUR?" (Rom. 9:21).

Only theologians believe that vessels of "dishonor" malfunction, when in reality they were designed by their Creator for the very PURPOSE of malfunctioning. A malfunctioning, carnal-minded, God-hating, immoral, human slob, is of great value to God. Paul was just such a person before God called him out of Babylon the Great. And now, PAUL IS GREAT! Marvel of marvels, the things that God can do with dung.

And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.

The theory of "free will" is not only totally unscriptural; it is a physiological impossibility. With the same set of circumstances as Adam and Eve faced, every single person who has ever lived would have done the very same thing and sinned. Now then, if free will were a reality, surely at least ONE person would have resisted and willed NOT TO SIN. Do we have proof of what I am saying?

If any man or woman who has ever lived, possessed this thing called "free moral agency" (the ability to make uncaused choices), then surely somewhere at some time at some place on this big broad earth, there would have had to be at least ONE out of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived, who would have used his or her "free will" to choose and will to not sin. There has never been such a person save one, Jesus Christ.

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

What is even more startling is the fact that every person who fights for the right of his "uncaused choices," must still admit that after knowing the truth, having then chosen to stop sinning, nevertheless, continues to sin, day after day after day. Does no one think seriously about the total impossibility of these stupid, stupid, God-defying theories that we call "wisdom?"

"If we say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).

We can come to the place where sin no longer controls us, motivates us, or makes us its slave, but we are still not totally free from all and every sin.

Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that last verse? Is there anyone who doesn’t believe it? Then how is it possible that man has "free will?" If humankind has just as much of a "free will" to choose GOOD as they have a "free will" to choose BAD, then why oh why has not one of the fifty billion, in the history of the world, used his free will to choose good and to not sin? What earthly or heavenly good is it to claim that mankind has free moral agency if not one in fifty billion people has ever been able to successfully use his free will in choosing not to sin? Therefore, God is obligated to have a better solution to the "all have sinned" reality than to burn most of them in a lake of fire for all eternity. Am I going to fast for anyone? Am I making sense to anyone? Is there someone who wishes to counter these facts by continuing to cling to this idol of the heart and still insist that we really do have free will, but it’s just that it malfunctions in 100% of the people who possess it?

when the human "will" does choose what is right and good, there is a God-given cause behind it:

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Let me assure you that there is no Scripture in the Bible that states or endorses the message that is parroted millions and millions of times around the world throughout all generations of Christendom, that:

"For it is YOUR OWN FREE WILL (FREE MORAL AGENCY) which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure." (Sorry, but no scriptural reference can be found for this anti-scriptural statement).

Now then, the above statement regarding "free will" is taught by the Christian community throughout the world, but it is not, I repeat, not, found anywhere in the Bible. However, the statement above it, which says that it is "GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" IS found in all Bibles in (Phil. 2:13)! Everyone reading this paper can now choose [freely?] which statement they will continue to believe. The statement that is taught to the world by the church, but, is not found in the Bible, or the statement that is not taught to the world by the church, but is found in the Bible?

I do believe that I have just presented my readers with a theological dilemma of colossal proportions! If you don’t see it, let me spell it out for you:

Phil. 2:13 contradicts the statement that man has his own "free" will that enables him to both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

The teaching of the Church states that man, by his own "free" will, independent of God, can both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

But Phil. 2:13 contradicts this heresy of the Church by stating that it is

"GOD[and not man’s ‘free’ will] which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."


Man must be MADE to come to Christ and to seek God and live righteously and godly. It is the function of God’s grace that teaches us and chastens us to live godly, not our own supposed "free" wills.

"As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).

"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).

Well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!

"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).

"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

So now how many reading this paper who have a hostility toward God’s Word will at last see the simple Scriptural Truth that I have just presented, and will forsake their old heretical teachings regarding "free" will? None. Only "the few" whom God is calling to be "overcomers" of such rebellion will at last see the Truth with new spiritual eyes.

So let’s drop the grudges we might have inadvertently harbored against our first parents thinking that they ruined our lives by their sins. As for me, I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal—they are kin, you know? And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God—I guarantee you the Scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual fire, which is the second spiritual death.

Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the First Man Adam, there would never have been the Second and Last Man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of ALL. "For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL."

In the fourth chapter of Daniel, God gives King Nebuchadnezzar a 'troubling' dream. Four times in this one chapter we are told "...that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Dan. 4:17, 25, 26 & 32).

According to Daniel chapter four, God rules in the kingdoms of men and 'wills' to 'set up' the "basest of men" over those kingdoms.

Even evil men are under the sovereign rule of the supreme authority according to the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Though troubling to the carnal mind, even this assertion is acknowledged by most Christians.

What saith the scriptures themselves?

"Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL according to HIS GOOD In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE which HE hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF… ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9 and 11).

Let’s add Eph. 1:10 to the mix as well:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Did you read what the scripture says? ALL THINGS!! ALL THINGS! ALL THINGS!

BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. I’d say that certainly should leave little doubt that it means ALL THINGS.

Yes, we 'choose' in all the decisions we make every day, but is this really the result of our free will? What happens when our free will conflicts with "the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL"?

The answer is obvious. There can only be one truly free will to which all others are subordinate. Only One will can work "all things after the counsel of His own will." All other decisions are 'worked', caused by that One will and may appear to be free, but they are always in "all things" caused decisions.

The "first Adam" in the temple of God, "the beast" is loath to leave that temple. He of his own 'free will' will never admit that while yes, he makes choices every day, those choices have nothing to do with 'free will'. Every choice we make, from casually scratching our head to choosing Christ as our savior is a caused choice.

"Having PREDESTINATED US...according to the good pleasure of HIS will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).

If "the very hairs of our heads are numbered", why would we believe that the all-knowing God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears is not also, through the "principalities and powers" at His disposal, causing every trial and test, every chastening and scourging, and yes, causing ALL things especially our very hearts and thoughts and choices "according to the counsel of HIS WILL?"

These are the scriptural truths concerning the extent of the counsel of His will. Nowhere do the scriptures teach otherwise. The fact that God holds us accountable for our sins has nothing whatsoever to do with our being responsible for our wretched actions and condition.

It was God's free will that created us of dust instead of spirit. It is from His hand that every person born comes into this world naked, testifying of our sinful, dying, of the dust composition.

God Himself takes the responsibility for every evil act ever committed (Isa. 45:7), even the most evil act of all time, the death of our sinless, perfect, spotless Savior. (Acts 4:28).

This all being made so clear in scripture, one would expect a just God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears to make provision for the salvation of all of his creatures. Is that indeed the case? Here is what the Savior Himself has to say: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).

Jesus taught us to pray..."and lead us not into temptation." We ask for His help but still CHOOSE whether we give in to temptation and sin. God offers us a way, He doesn't take us by the scruff of the neck, He invites us to follow Him. Free will not scriptural? Common sense isn't specifically mentioned in scripture either, still, some of us have it.

Just one more comment on this sermon- holding a grudge against Adam and Eve isn't scriptural either.

 

[guno]

It's a guideline. Ultimately, the are 2 truths - there is 1 God. Jesus died for our sins so we can be acceptable in God's sight so we can live with him forever.

The Devil/Satan loves for people to get tangled up I the details.

If you choose not to believe, that is your choice (unless you believe in Predestination)

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul’s statement, “Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, “Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it” (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God’s loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

The word “forgiveness” or “pardon” (in Hebrew, s‑l‑h) appears for the first time in the story of the golden calf: “Pardon our iniquity and our sin” (Exod. 34:9).The story of the spies contains a similar idea: “Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to Your great kindness, as You have tolerated [carried] this people ever since Egypt” (Num. 13:5).This text is followed by the verse that is central to the Yom Kippur liturgy: “And the Lord said, ‘I pardon, as you have asked'” (Num. 14:37).

These narratives establish the concept of the God of Israel as a God of mercy and forgiveness. In revealing His nature to Moses, God indicates His forgiving nature much more fully than He did in the Ten Commandments. God emphasizes mercy, “carrying sin” and extending lovingkindness far beyond the extent of punishment. Thus, Moses learns that God’s essence is not only His absolute Being and His absolute freedom, but His fundamental mercy. It is not surprising that the passage in which these attributes of God are detailed (Exod. 34:6‑7) became the cornerstone of the liturgy of forgiveness during the High Holy Day season.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Sort of & sort of not. It's not quite that simple. Yes predetermined in that God, being the Soveriegn Creator, already knows the end of the story, but as we humans live out our lives, we are continually given the free will to make choices that direct our paths along the way. It's not just the beginning or the end, but the journey thru. Our ultimate choice is to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior and thru Him, accept God as Supreme and faith in His love for us.

This doesn't even come close to describe the reality.....but the best I can come up with.

I think this is what cognitive dissonance looks like.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

Pharaoh still had his own mind to consult. He still had his counselors to listen to. His heart was hardened but it wasn't shut down.

What's the context of the passage? Do you think God hardened Pharoah's heart to just make it harder for Pharoah to make the right decision? This story is about Pharoah not freeing the slaves because God didn't yet want him to - in order to display His power over life and death to the Egyptians and, more importantly, the Jews.

 

[Compost]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

Pharaoh still had his own mind to consult. He still had his counselors to listen to. His heart was hardened but it wasn't shut down.

What's the context of the passage? Do you think God hardened Pharoah's heart to just make it harder for Pharoah to make the right decision? This story is about Pharoah not freeing the slaves because God didn't yet want him to - in order to display His power over life and death to the Egyptians and, more importantly, the Jews.

My point is we are not puppets on God's string. That includes Pharoah. If you want context, refresh your mind by reading the entire relevant passage and use your God given mind to think about it.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

Pharaoh still had his own mind to consult. He still had his counselors to listen to. His heart was hardened but it wasn't shut down.

What's the context of the passage? Do you think God hardened Pharoah's heart to just make it harder for Pharoah to make the right decision? This story is about Pharoah not freeing the slaves because God didn't yet want him to - in order to display His power over life and death to the Egyptians and, more importantly, the Jews.

My point is we are not puppets on God's string. That includes Pharoah. If you want context, refresh your mind by reading the entire relevant passage and use your God given mind to think about it.

I understand your point, but the passage is clear:

Exodus 7:3-4

But I will make Pharaoh’s heart hard. So I will do many powerful works for the people to see in the land of Egypt. 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay My hand on Egypt.

I don't think we're puppets but Christianity has yet to come up with a way to reconcile that God knows all, has a plan, is Just and Love, allows suffering and injustice, and needs you to accept His son of your own freewill to be saved. The problem of suffering. The paradox of omniscience and omnipotence. The paradox of omniscience and freewill. The paradox of a just God who commits injustices. And the paradox of an omnipotent and just God who allows injustice.

If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, what then? Jesus would have turned himself in to the Romans? If so, then why didn't he do so before Judas betrayed him?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

How do you reconcile this, Bonzi?

 

[Iceweasel]

which brings us back to....

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission

IMO - Bonzi you have to remember the Bible we know of today, whether you are reading the KJV or some more modern variant...this is a book that has been written and rewritten, condensed, altered, edited etc. etc. 100's if not 1,000's of times, That is a fact, a fact that your minister will not refute. But everyone wants to look at the book we see today - that scholars, who spend their entire careers on religious texts, still to today cannot figure out which specific part of the Bible ancient biblical texts are!! They argue amongst themselves, this one saying Book of Matthew...another saying no..I think that is Luke..another saying it isn't even the Bible...another sating it is a passage not in one of the books that are included in the KJV.
You can't take the Bible you see today literal. It is simply not even close to whatever the original texts was...in fact a great deal of the Bible you see today was written by people who lived 100's of years after Christ reportedly died.

I think two hundred years for a few books, maybe. Like John, but like you said no one knows everything with certainty, no extant copies exist. Codex Vaticanus and codex Sinaiticus are the earliest nearly complete copies last I looked and they are dated around 350ad.

That said there were a lot of translations done very early on as the word got out and the religion gained popularity so they do have a relatively good idea about what was probably said back in the day. Bruce Metzger wrote a pretty good book on it, The Bible, It's Corruption, Transmission and Restoration.

That's why it's silly to get into minutia with your current version as if God penned it, the whole bible by compiled by committee for an emperor cobbling together a state religion.

There are a lot of difficulties in deciding matter like predestination and picking verses to support the opinion but when I was a Christian I viewed it as us not knowing what God knows so the point was moot for me.

 

[the_human_being]

OK. Riddle me these:

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one can come to Christ UNLEESS the Father call him. Doesn't sound very voluntary does it?

Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Does not say ALL men are called. It says MANY are called.
Says FEW are chosen. Does not say ALL those called are chosen. What happens to those NOT called through no fault of their own?
What happens to those NOT chosen through no fault of their own?

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
How is this possible since God didn't call ALL and didn't choose ALL?

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

WHAT??? The savior of ALL men? Not just those that believe but ALL men? How is that possible?

Perhaps there is something our pastors aren't telling us?

 

[the_human_being]

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.

THE REQUIREMENT FOR PERFECTION

I can’t remember how many times I have read or heard that God created Adam and Eve as perfect spiritual specimens of the human race. They were PERFECT in spiritual character, we are told, until Satan deceived Eve and she and Adam then both sinned.

And just where do you suppose they discovered such profound wisdom and knowledge regarding our first parents? Not from the Bible, I can assure you of that. It is but more stupid wisdom from the carnal-minded leaders of the Church. How pray tell, was Adam and Eve Perfect specimens of God’s spiritual character? They were NO SUCH THING!

Here’s the proof: Were our first parents a thousands times more holy, perfect, and righteous in character than our own Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? Read all the accolades that the Father lavishes upon His Son Jesus in the first chapter of Hebrews. Jesus is very GOD! And yet … and YET, we read this:

"For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

And this:

"Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!

Humans can be perfected by MAGIC, but for the very Son of God it took MUCH SUFFERING! When will you stop listening to these charlatans and deceivers?

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).

Are we to believe that our first parents, God’s VERY FIRST attempt at creating Sons and Daughters in His very own Image, FAILED? Do we think that Adam and Eve’s creation was FINISHED before they even drew breath? That they started out, PERFECT, IN GOD’S OWN IMAGE, WITH GOD’S SPIRIT, TOTALLY MATURE, AND THEN MALFUNCTIONED AND FAILED? And God did not see it coming? Was God shocked at this unforeseen bungled attempt at creating obedient children? Did He figure out what went wrong? Did He have a plan to "fix" the malfunctioning humans? Or would He just try over and over and over again billions of times until He got it right? Is this the kind of blasphemous insults we should level against your own CREATOR?

NOTHING HAS EVER MALFUNCTIONED ACCORDING TO GOD’S PLAN!

If anything in the universe has ever malfunctioned contrary to the intention of the Creator and Designer God, then the flaw is in the Inventor, not the invention! GOD IS THE POTTER: WE ARE THE CLAY!

"Has not the Potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto DISHONOUR?" (Rom. 9:21).

Only theologians believe that vessels of "dishonor" malfunction, when in reality they were designed by their Creator for the very PURPOSE of malfunctioning. A malfunctioning, carnal-minded, God-hating, immoral, human slob, is of great value to God. Paul was just such a person before God called him out of Babylon the Great. And now, PAUL IS GREAT! Marvel of marvels, the things that God can do with dung.

And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.

The theory of "free will" is not only totally unscriptural; it is a physiological impossibility. With the same set of circumstances as Adam and Eve faced, every single person who has ever lived would have done the very same thing and sinned. Now then, if free will were a reality, surely at least ONE person would have resisted and willed NOT TO SIN. Do we have proof of what I am saying?

If any man or woman who has ever lived, possessed this thing called "free moral agency" (the ability to make uncaused choices), then surely somewhere at some time at some place on this big broad earth, there would have had to be at least ONE out of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived, who would have used his or her "free will" to choose and will to not sin. There has never been such a person save one, Jesus Christ.

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

What is even more startling is the fact that every person who fights for the right of his "uncaused choices," must still admit that after knowing the truth, having then chosen to stop sinning, nevertheless, continues to sin, day after day after day. Does no one think seriously about the total impossibility of these stupid, stupid, God-defying theories that we call "wisdom?"

"If we say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).

We can come to the place where sin no longer controls us, motivates us, or makes us its slave, but we are still not totally free from all and every sin.

Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that last verse? Is there anyone who doesn’t believe it? Then how is it possible that man has "free will?" If humankind has just as much of a "free will" to choose GOOD as they have a "free will" to choose BAD, then why oh why has not one of the fifty billion, in the history of the world, used his free will to choose good and to not sin? What earthly or heavenly good is it to claim that mankind has free moral agency if not one in fifty billion people has ever been able to successfully use his free will in choosing not to sin? Therefore, God is obligated to have a better solution to the "all have sinned" reality than to burn most of them in a lake of fire for all eternity. Am I going to fast for anyone? Am I making sense to anyone? Is there someone who wishes to counter these facts by continuing to cling to this idol of the heart and still insist that we really do have free will, but it’s just that it malfunctions in 100% of the people who possess it?

when the human "will" does choose what is right and good, there is a God-given cause behind it:

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Let me assure you that there is no Scripture in the Bible that states or endorses the message that is parroted millions and millions of times around the world throughout all generations of Christendom, that:

"For it is YOUR OWN FREE WILL (FREE MORAL AGENCY) which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure." (Sorry, but no scriptural reference can be found for this anti-scriptural statement).

Now then, the above statement regarding "free will" is taught by the Christian community throughout the world, but it is not, I repeat, not, found anywhere in the Bible. However, the statement above it, which says that it is "GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" IS found in all Bibles in (Phil. 2:13)! Everyone reading this paper can now choose [freely?] which statement they will continue to believe. The statement that is taught to the world by the church, but, is not found in the Bible, or the statement that is not taught to the world by the church, but is found in the Bible?

I do believe that I have just presented my readers with a theological dilemma of colossal proportions! If you don’t see it, let me spell it out for you:

Phil. 2:13 contradicts the statement that man has his own "free" will that enables him to both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

The teaching of the Church states that man, by his own "free" will, independent of God, can both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

But Phil. 2:13 contradicts this heresy of the Church by stating that it is

"GOD[and not man’s ‘free’ will] which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."


Man must be MADE to come to Christ and to seek God and live righteously and godly. It is the function of God’s grace that teaches us and chastens us to live godly, not our own supposed "free" wills.

"As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).

"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).

Well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!

"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).

"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

So now how many reading this paper who have a hostility toward God’s Word will at last see the simple Scriptural Truth that I have just presented, and will forsake their old heretical teachings regarding "free" will? None. Only "the few" whom God is calling to be "overcomers" of such rebellion will at last see the Truth with new spiritual eyes.

So let’s drop the grudges we might have inadvertently harbored against our first parents thinking that they ruined our lives by their sins. As for me, I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal—they are kin, you know? And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God—I guarantee you the Scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual fire, which is the second spiritual death.

Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the First Man Adam, there would never have been the Second and Last Man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of ALL. "For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL."

In the fourth chapter of Daniel, God gives King Nebuchadnezzar a 'troubling' dream. Four times in this one chapter we are told "...that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Dan. 4:17, 25, 26 & 32).

According to Daniel chapter four, God rules in the kingdoms of men and 'wills' to 'set up' the "basest of men" over those kingdoms.

Even evil men are under the sovereign rule of the supreme authority according to the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Though troubling to the carnal mind, even this assertion is acknowledged by most Christians.

What saith the scriptures themselves?

"Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL according to HIS GOOD In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE which HE hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF… ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9 and 11).

Let’s add Eph. 1:10 to the mix as well:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Did you read what the scripture says? ALL THINGS!! ALL THINGS! ALL THINGS!

BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. I’d say that certainly should leave little doubt that it means ALL THINGS.

Yes, we 'choose' in all the decisions we make every day, but is this really the result of our free will? What happens when our free will conflicts with "the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL"?

The answer is obvious. There can only be one truly free will to which all others are subordinate. Only One will can work "all things after the counsel of His own will." All other decisions are 'worked', caused by that One will and may appear to be free, but they are always in "all things" caused decisions.

The "first Adam" in the temple of God, "the beast" is loath to leave that temple. He of his own 'free will' will never admit that while yes, he makes choices every day, those choices have nothing to do with 'free will'. Every choice we make, from casually scratching our head to choosing Christ as our savior is a caused choice.

"Having PREDESTINATED US...according to the good pleasure of HIS will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).

If "the very hairs of our heads are numbered", why would we believe that the all-knowing God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears is not also, through the "principalities and powers" at His disposal, causing every trial and test, every chastening and scourging, and yes, causing ALL things especially our very hearts and thoughts and choices "according to the counsel of HIS WILL?"

These are the scriptural truths concerning the extent of the counsel of His will. Nowhere do the scriptures teach otherwise. The fact that God holds us accountable for our sins has nothing whatsoever to do with our being responsible for our wretched actions and condition.

It was God's free will that created us of dust instead of spirit. It is from His hand that every person born comes into this world naked, testifying of our sinful, dying, of the dust composition.

God Himself takes the responsibility for every evil act ever committed (Isa. 45:7), even the most evil act of all time, the death of our sinless, perfect, spotless Savior. (Acts 4:28).

This all being made so clear in scripture, one would expect a just God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears to make provision for the salvation of all of his creatures. Is that indeed the case? Here is what the Savior Himself has to say: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).

Why not just post a novel? Gee whiz. TL/DR.

I tried to explain what the Bible says on the subject. I did not force you to read my post. We all have the option to not read any post we choose not to read.

 

[the_human_being]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

 

[the_human_being]

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.

THE REQUIREMENT FOR PERFECTION

I can’t remember how many times I have read or heard that God created Adam and Eve as perfect spiritual specimens of the human race. They were PERFECT in spiritual character, we are told, until Satan deceived Eve and she and Adam then both sinned.

And just where do you suppose they discovered such profound wisdom and knowledge regarding our first parents? Not from the Bible, I can assure you of that. It is but more stupid wisdom from the carnal-minded leaders of the Church. How pray tell, was Adam and Eve Perfect specimens of God’s spiritual character? They were NO SUCH THING!

Here’s the proof: Were our first parents a thousands times more holy, perfect, and righteous in character than our own Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? Read all the accolades that the Father lavishes upon His Son Jesus in the first chapter of Hebrews. Jesus is very GOD! And yet … and YET, we read this:

"For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

And this:

"Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!!

Humans can be perfected by MAGIC, but for the very Son of God it took MUCH SUFFERING! When will you stop listening to these charlatans and deceivers?

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).

Are we to believe that our first parents, God’s VERY FIRST attempt at creating Sons and Daughters in His very own Image, FAILED? Do we think that Adam and Eve’s creation was FINISHED before they even drew breath? That they started out, PERFECT, IN GOD’S OWN IMAGE, WITH GOD’S SPIRIT, TOTALLY MATURE, AND THEN MALFUNCTIONED AND FAILED? And God did not see it coming? Was God shocked at this unforeseen bungled attempt at creating obedient children? Did He figure out what went wrong? Did He have a plan to "fix" the malfunctioning humans? Or would He just try over and over and over again billions of times until He got it right? Is this the kind of blasphemous insults we should level against your own CREATOR?

NOTHING HAS EVER MALFUNCTIONED ACCORDING TO GOD’S PLAN!

If anything in the universe has ever malfunctioned contrary to the intention of the Creator and Designer God, then the flaw is in the Inventor, not the invention! GOD IS THE POTTER: WE ARE THE CLAY!

"Has not the Potter [God] power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto DISHONOUR?" (Rom. 9:21).

Only theologians believe that vessels of "dishonor" malfunction, when in reality they were designed by their Creator for the very PURPOSE of malfunctioning. A malfunctioning, carnal-minded, God-hating, immoral, human slob, is of great value to God. Paul was just such a person before God called him out of Babylon the Great. And now, PAUL IS GREAT! Marvel of marvels, the things that God can do with dung.

And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.

The theory of "free will" is not only totally unscriptural; it is a physiological impossibility. With the same set of circumstances as Adam and Eve faced, every single person who has ever lived would have done the very same thing and sinned. Now then, if free will were a reality, surely at least ONE person would have resisted and willed NOT TO SIN. Do we have proof of what I am saying?

If any man or woman who has ever lived, possessed this thing called "free moral agency" (the ability to make uncaused choices), then surely somewhere at some time at some place on this big broad earth, there would have had to be at least ONE out of the billions and billions of people who have ever lived, who would have used his or her "free will" to choose and will to not sin. There has never been such a person save one, Jesus Christ.

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

What is even more startling is the fact that every person who fights for the right of his "uncaused choices," must still admit that after knowing the truth, having then chosen to stop sinning, nevertheless, continues to sin, day after day after day. Does no one think seriously about the total impossibility of these stupid, stupid, God-defying theories that we call "wisdom?"

"If we say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).

We can come to the place where sin no longer controls us, motivates us, or makes us its slave, but we are still not totally free from all and every sin.

Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that last verse? Is there anyone who doesn’t believe it? Then how is it possible that man has "free will?" If humankind has just as much of a "free will" to choose GOOD as they have a "free will" to choose BAD, then why oh why has not one of the fifty billion, in the history of the world, used his free will to choose good and to not sin? What earthly or heavenly good is it to claim that mankind has free moral agency if not one in fifty billion people has ever been able to successfully use his free will in choosing not to sin? Therefore, God is obligated to have a better solution to the "all have sinned" reality than to burn most of them in a lake of fire for all eternity. Am I going to fast for anyone? Am I making sense to anyone? Is there someone who wishes to counter these facts by continuing to cling to this idol of the heart and still insist that we really do have free will, but it’s just that it malfunctions in 100% of the people who possess it?

when the human "will" does choose what is right and good, there is a God-given cause behind it:

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Let me assure you that there is no Scripture in the Bible that states or endorses the message that is parroted millions and millions of times around the world throughout all generations of Christendom, that:

"For it is YOUR OWN FREE WILL (FREE MORAL AGENCY) which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure." (Sorry, but no scriptural reference can be found for this anti-scriptural statement).

Now then, the above statement regarding "free will" is taught by the Christian community throughout the world, but it is not, I repeat, not, found anywhere in the Bible. However, the statement above it, which says that it is "GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" IS found in all Bibles in (Phil. 2:13)! Everyone reading this paper can now choose [freely?] which statement they will continue to believe. The statement that is taught to the world by the church, but, is not found in the Bible, or the statement that is not taught to the world by the church, but is found in the Bible?

I do believe that I have just presented my readers with a theological dilemma of colossal proportions! If you don’t see it, let me spell it out for you:

Phil. 2:13 contradicts the statement that man has his own "free" will that enables him to both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

The teaching of the Church states that man, by his own "free" will, independent of God, can both "will" and "do" God’s "good pleasure."

But Phil. 2:13 contradicts this heresy of the Church by stating that it is

"GOD[and not man’s ‘free’ will] which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."


Man must be MADE to come to Christ and to seek God and live righteously and godly. It is the function of God’s grace that teaches us and chastens us to live godly, not our own supposed "free" wills.

"As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).

"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).

Well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!

"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).

"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

So now how many reading this paper who have a hostility toward God’s Word will at last see the simple Scriptural Truth that I have just presented, and will forsake their old heretical teachings regarding "free" will? None. Only "the few" whom God is calling to be "overcomers" of such rebellion will at last see the Truth with new spiritual eyes.

So let’s drop the grudges we might have inadvertently harbored against our first parents thinking that they ruined our lives by their sins. As for me, I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal—they are kin, you know? And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God—I guarantee you the Scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual fire, which is the second spiritual death.

Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the First Man Adam, there would never have been the Second and Last Man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of ALL. "For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL."

In the fourth chapter of Daniel, God gives King Nebuchadnezzar a 'troubling' dream. Four times in this one chapter we are told "...that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Dan. 4:17, 25, 26 & 32).

According to Daniel chapter four, God rules in the kingdoms of men and 'wills' to 'set up' the "basest of men" over those kingdoms.

Even evil men are under the sovereign rule of the supreme authority according to the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Though troubling to the carnal mind, even this assertion is acknowledged by most Christians.

What saith the scriptures themselves?

"Having made known to us the mystery of HIS WILL according to HIS GOOD In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE which HE hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF… ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9 and 11).

Let’s add Eph. 1:10 to the mix as well:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Did you read what the scripture says? ALL THINGS!! ALL THINGS! ALL THINGS!

BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. I’d say that certainly should leave little doubt that it means ALL THINGS.

Yes, we 'choose' in all the decisions we make every day, but is this really the result of our free will? What happens when our free will conflicts with "the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL"?

The answer is obvious. There can only be one truly free will to which all others are subordinate. Only One will can work "all things after the counsel of His own will." All other decisions are 'worked', caused by that One will and may appear to be free, but they are always in "all things" caused decisions.

The "first Adam" in the temple of God, "the beast" is loath to leave that temple. He of his own 'free will' will never admit that while yes, he makes choices every day, those choices have nothing to do with 'free will'. Every choice we make, from casually scratching our head to choosing Christ as our savior is a caused choice.

"Having PREDESTINATED US...according to the good pleasure of HIS will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).

If "the very hairs of our heads are numbered", why would we believe that the all-knowing God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears is not also, through the "principalities and powers" at His disposal, causing every trial and test, every chastening and scourging, and yes, causing ALL things especially our very hearts and thoughts and choices "according to the counsel of HIS WILL?"

These are the scriptural truths concerning the extent of the counsel of His will. Nowhere do the scriptures teach otherwise. The fact that God holds us accountable for our sins has nothing whatsoever to do with our being responsible for our wretched actions and condition.

It was God's free will that created us of dust instead of spirit. It is from His hand that every person born comes into this world naked, testifying of our sinful, dying, of the dust composition.

God Himself takes the responsibility for every evil act ever committed (Isa. 45:7), even the most evil act of all time, the death of our sinless, perfect, spotless Savior. (Acts 4:28).

This all being made so clear in scripture, one would expect a just God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes and stops ears to make provision for the salvation of all of his creatures. Is that indeed the case? Here is what the Savior Himself has to say: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Strong's #1670 - helkuo - drag) ALL MEN unto me" (John 12:32).

Jesus taught us to pray..."and lead us not into temptation." We ask for His help but still CHOOSE whether we give in to temptation and sin. God offers us a way, He doesn't take us by the scruff of the neck, He invites us to follow Him. Free will not scriptural? Common sense isn't specifically mentioned in scripture either, still, some of us have it.

Just one more comment on this sermon- holding a grudge against Adam and Eve isn't scriptural either.

Every Scripture I posted comes directly from the Bible. The death penalty was levied upon ALL because of the original sin.

Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The above verse comes directly from the Bible. It is not something I made up.

Christ paid the debt and gave us a way to obtain LIFE:

Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.