Christians - Predestination: Yes or No?

[JustAnotherNut]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

Pharaoh still had his own mind to consult. He still had his counselors to listen to. His heart was hardened but it wasn't shut down.

What's the context of the passage? Do you think God hardened Pharoah's heart to just make it harder for Pharoah to make the right decision? This story is about Pharoah not freeing the slaves because God didn't yet want him to - in order to display His power over life and death to the Egyptians and, more importantly, the Jews.

Yes, the whole story of Exodus is about God showing the Hebrews of His power & His love for them by protecting them from so called evils like Pharaoh and the Egyptians. Who were basically enemies throughout history. He (God) used Moses who was by birth a fellow Hebrew, raised by Egyptians and therefore a 'go between' to get the Hebrew slaves to believe God was there, working for their best interest to free them from the overwhelming slavery and take them to the "Promised Land'.
Yes it was kind of like puppetry in how it played out BUT if it was God's complete control & 'predestination', He wouldn't have done this or stepped in, so to speak, if the Hebrews were going to escape Pharaohs rule anyway. God gave them the opportunity to make the choice, to stay with Pharaoh or go with Moses.

And to whomever said that Pharaoh was going to let the Hebrews go without God's intervention......that's not exactly true. Pharaoh may have said so, but he never intended to follow thru. Pharaoh was the almighty king over the land with millions of slaves, how could he possibly be kept so powerful if he willingly let all those slaves go free just because some invisible god said so? He'd look like a wimpy chump.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

Throughout the Old Testament, first born unblemished lambs were offered as sacrifices to atone for the person, family or community's sin. Jesus was the human Lamb of God, offered up as the ultimate sacrifice. To shed His blood for our sins and the water to wash us clean. He died on our behalf and did so willingly.
The arguments of whether Jesus would have still been crucified without the Betrayer is really just tearing it apart yet missing the whole point behind it. The whole story & ultimate teaching wouldn't make sense without his interference. The Bible wasn't written just for the Hebrews at that time. It was written to be an eternal message & teaching tool for all civilization & the message(s) hold true then just as much as today and will throughout the future

It's not about single events or the people involved at the time.....it IS God's message to His people, both Jew or Hebrew & Gentile alike. It is for all mankind that choose to read it, God then may or may not open your eyes &/or heart to understanding, but the true choice is still yours to believe not just the words, but the message they contain....or not.

Also, the differences between Old Testiment & New is that the Old Testament is the foundation, the rules or laws to go by and technically the 'works' to get to Heaven. The New Testament takes it just a bit further so that we believe and have faith that God does love us, is willing to forgive our sins and to show that we as humans do make mistakes & none are perfect (except Jesus) in His sight.
Both Old & New must go hand in hand for true choice to occur. Not everyone who follows the rules of the Old will ever truly understand God or His love for us, without the New to show WHY the rules were laid in the Old. (make sense?)

 

[RodISHI]

So, God does not determine, before time, if we are to go to Heaven or Hell then, correct?

The kingdom of God is within you. It is up to the individual to locate these portions within themselves. Luke 17:21 Once a person starts figuring those portions within themselves they can start working to become overcomers of this world (the carnal world) to go out no more. Revelation 3:12.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

But God hardened Pharaoh's heart.....

Exodus 9: 10-12

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron

Pharaoh still had his own mind to consult. He still had his counselors to listen to. His heart was hardened but it wasn't shut down.

What's the context of the passage? Do you think God hardened Pharoah's heart to just make it harder for Pharoah to make the right decision? This story is about Pharoah not freeing the slaves because God didn't yet want him to - in order to display His power over life and death to the Egyptians and, more importantly, the Jews.

Yes, the whole story of Exodus is about God showing the Hebrews of His power & His love for them by protecting them from so called evils like Pharaoh and the Egyptians. Who were basically enemies throughout history. He (God) used Moses who was by birth a fellow Hebrew, raised by Egyptians and therefore a 'go between' to get the Hebrew slaves to believe God was there, working for their best interest to free them from the overwhelming slavery and take them to the "Promised Land'.
Yes it was kind of like puppetry in how it played out BUT if it was God's complete control & 'predestination', He wouldn't have done this or stepped in, so to speak, if the Hebrews were going to escape Pharaohs rule anyway. God gave them the opportunity to make the choice, to stay with Pharaoh or go with Moses.

And to whomever said that Pharaoh was going to let the Hebrews go without God's intervention......that's not exactly true. Pharaoh may have said so, but he never intended to follow thru. Pharaoh was the almighty king over the land with millions of slaves, how could he possibly be kept so powerful if he willingly let all those slaves go free just because some invisible god said so? He'd look like a wimpy chump.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

Throughout the Old Testament, first born unblemished lambs were offered as sacrifices to atone for the person, family or community's sin. Jesus was the human Lamb of God, offered up as the ultimate sacrifice. To shed His blood for our sins and the water to wash us clean. He died on our behalf and did so willingly.
The arguments of whether Jesus would have still been crucified without the Betrayer is really just tearing it apart yet missing the whole point behind it. The whole story & ultimate teaching wouldn't make sense without his interference. The Bible wasn't written just for the Hebrews at that time. It was written to be an eternal message & teaching tool for all civilization & the message(s) hold true then just as much as today and will throughout the future

It's not about single events or the people involved at the time.....it IS God's message to His people, both Jew or Hebrew & Gentile alike. It is for all mankind that choose to read it, God then may or may not open your eyes &/or heart to understanding, but the true choice is still yours to believe not just the words, but the message they contain....or not.

Also, the differences between Old Testiment & New is that the Old Testament is the foundation, the rules or laws to go by and technically the 'works' to get to Heaven. The New Testament takes it just a bit further so that we believe and have faith that God does love us, is willing to forgive our sins and to show that we as humans do make mistakes & none are perfect (except Jesus) in His sight.
Both Old & New must go hand in hand for true choice to occur. Not everyone who follows the rules of the Old will ever truly understand God or His love for us, without the New to show WHY the rules were laid in the Old. (make sense?)

As a lifelong nonbeliever, I only have a basic understanding of what Christians refer to as "the good news".

As a lifelong skeptic, it seems far more plausible from my experience that Jesus was a revolutionary rabbi whose followers, after his death, believed he was divine. Their belief resulted in a branching off of a new sect of Jewish belief which proclaimed Jesus as the messiah.

Jesus wasn't the first, nor the last, Jewish messiah, but the belief that he was THE messiah has survived and flourished whereas the others have disappeared and been forgotten.

Islam is another sect of Judaism. There are even more sub-sects if one takes into account the Sunnis and Shia and others. Christianity has even more with Greek and Russian Orthodox, Catholic, the innumerable Protestant sects, and the cult-like sects such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and 7th Day Adventists (all of whom originated in the 19th century).

All of these different religious sects originate in Judaism. It seems as though the one true faith is hardly one faith and very likely not even true.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Even though I am Christian, I am also of the personal belief, that all religions (whether Christianity, Jews, Islam, Muslim, Mormons, JW's, even Far East and American Indian) that base their practices & core beliefs on One God, Creator, Supreme Being or Spirit are actually one & the same and are only separated by human interpretation. Even in the Bible it says that 'I am called by many names' Each of the separate religions are only focusing their beliefs on one or two aspects of the same core.

This is probably a bad comparison to use for example, but please bear with me to see the actual point being made....Let's say there is a huge tree in the middle of a public garden. 100 people came from far & wide to visit this tree. Those 100 people would each notice & focus their attention on one unique aspect of that same tree. Maybe one would see it's height, another the grooves in the bark and another the color of the leaves and so on. Each of those 100, would then go back to tell all their friends and neighbors about that one aspect of this great tree. Those same friends & neighbors would then visit that same tree and still only focus on the one aspect that was told them. Then let's say of those first 100, they named the tree by the one aspect they identified with. The Groove in the Bark's, Color of the Leaves, etc. Each of those groups only study that same aspect of the one tree.....make sense?

 

[Montrovant]

Even though I am Christian, I am also of the personal belief, that all religions (whether Christianity, Jews, Islam, Muslim, Mormons, JW's, even Far East and American Indian) that base their practices & core beliefs on One God, Creator, Supreme Being or Spirit are actually one & the same and are only separated by human interpretation. Even in the Bible it says that 'I am called by many names' Each of the separate religions are only focusing their beliefs on one or two aspects of the same core.

This is probably a bad comparison to use for example, but please bear with me to see the actual point being made....Let's say there is a huge tree in the middle of a public garden. 100 people came from far & wide to visit this tree. Those 100 people would each notice & focus their attention on one unique aspect of that same tree. Maybe one would see it's height, another the grooves in the bark and another the color of the leaves and so on. Each of those 100, would then go back to tell all their friends and neighbors about that one aspect of this great tree. Those same friends & neighbors would then visit that same tree and still only focus on the one aspect that was told them. Then let's say of those first 100, they named the tree by the one aspect they identified with. The Groove in the Bark's, Color of the Leaves, etc. Each of those groups only study that same aspect of the one tree.....make sense?

You don't think any of the monotheistic religions might just be entirely made up or mistaken?

What about polytheistic belief?

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Even though I am Christian, I am also of the personal belief, that all religions (whether Christianity, Jews, Islam, Muslim, Mormons, JW's, even Far East and American Indian) that base their practices & core beliefs on One God, Creator, Supreme Being or Spirit are actually one & the same and are only separated by human interpretation. Even in the Bible it says that 'I am called by many names' Each of the separate religions are only focusing their beliefs on one or two aspects of the same core.

This is probably a bad comparison to use for example, but please bear with me to see the actual point being made....Let's say there is a huge tree in the middle of a public garden. 100 people came from far & wide to visit this tree. Those 100 people would each notice & focus their attention on one unique aspect of that same tree. Maybe one would see it's height, another the grooves in the bark and another the color of the leaves and so on. Each of those 100, would then go back to tell all their friends and neighbors about that one aspect of this great tree. Those same friends & neighbors would then visit that same tree and still only focus on the one aspect that was told them. Then let's say of those first 100, they named the tree by the one aspect they identified with. The Groove in the Bark's, Color of the Leaves, etc. Each of those groups only study that same aspect of the one tree.....make sense?

You don't think any of the monotheistic religions might just be entirely made up or mistaken?

What about polytheistic belief?

Those I really have no idea about. I'm talking more about mainstreams. There are always going to be others that don't fit into any given mold

 

[hangover]

God being Sovereign, are we all born predestined to go to Heaven or Hell?

That being said, there is nothing we can do to alter our fate. Correct?

Jesus was born to be the Christ.....predestination. I was born in the USA, many others were born in other countries. Many were born into the Islamic religion. Many others were born into the Hindu religion. Six million Jews were killed in the holocaust. Many born as Christians chose not to be.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Even though I am Christian, I am also of the personal belief, that all religions (whether Christianity, Jews, Islam, Muslim, Mormons, JW's, even Far East and American Indian) that base their practices & core beliefs on One God, Creator, Supreme Being or Spirit are actually one & the same and are only separated by human interpretation. Even in the Bible it says that 'I am called by many names' Each of the separate religions are only focusing their beliefs on one or two aspects of the same core.

This is probably a bad comparison to use for example, but please bear with me to see the actual point being made....Let's say there is a huge tree in the middle of a public garden. 100 people came from far & wide to visit this tree. Those 100 people would each notice & focus their attention on one unique aspect of that same tree. Maybe one would see it's height, another the grooves in the bark and another the color of the leaves and so on. Each of those 100, would then go back to tell all their friends and neighbors about that one aspect of this great tree. Those same friends & neighbors would then visit that same tree and still only focus on the one aspect that was told them. Then let's say of those first 100, they named the tree by the one aspect they identified with. The Groove in the Bark's, Color of the Leaves, etc. Each of those groups only study that same aspect of the one tree.....make sense?

I understand your analogy but I don't think it works as a comparison. All who see the tree would know it to be a tree and each aspect of each individual's perspective fits the larger notion of a tree. In regards to religious belief, many are incompatible. Monotheism and polytheism. Even Christians of differing sects have incompatible views. Fundamentalism and reason are incompatible.

No one fully understands the phenomenon of religion among all cultures. There is a compelling evolutionary argument in that religion is helpful for survival as an individual and as a culture.

I think religion has played a vital part in human culture. But as time passes and humankind has more and more history from which to learn, and as science and technology advance and humankind has more and more knowledge from which to understand the universe and the human condition, as wisdom grows from an ever greater source of collective human interaction, I think religion becomes less important for our survival.

Here's my analogy:

Religion is like a coping mechanism one had as a child or teenager. It helped through those years of childhood and adolescence, but as an adult, coping in that particular way is actually harmful.

Religion is just beginning to become more harmful than helpful. Instead of progressing as a species toward justice, equality, compassion- we remain superstitious, insular, divided, bound to out-dated traditions, treating others unequally because of religious precepts, and dehumanizing those of differing faiths.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Faith is a very personal and individual thing. To me, religion really is a dirty word in that it bespeaks of mans insistence of dutiful traditions that lack any spirituality. Everyone's life journey from birth to death is a culmination of events that help to guide us thru it and God's intent is for us to open our minds & hearts to at the very least acknowledge Him, once we do He will then work in us and thru others close to us, for a greater understanding & building of faith.
To me being a Christian doesn't mean someone that goes to church every Sunday or says long dramatic prayers, or reads the Bible for an hour every day, but more about how they live their lives, treat others and themselves and really do care.

But then again, I wasn't born or raised in the Church to have those pre conceived ideas or notions or biases. Because of life events, I came to the Church &/or 'became' Christian as an adult of my own free will and choice.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Faith is a very personal and individual thing. To me, religion really is a dirty word in that it bespeaks of mans insistence of dutiful traditions that lack any spirituality. Everyone's life journey from birth to death is a culmination of events that help to guide us thru it and God's intent is for us to open our minds & hearts to at the very least acknowledge Him, once we do He will then work in us and thru others close to us, for a greater understanding & building of faith.
To me being a Christian doesn't mean someone that goes to church every Sunday or says long dramatic prayers, or reads the Bible for an hour every day, but more about how they live their lives, treat others and themselves and really do care.

But then again, I wasn't born or raised in the Church to have those pre conceived ideas or notions or biases. Because of life events, I came to the Church &/or 'became' Christian as an adult of my own free will and choice.

What led you to seek Christ?

Why must we acknowledge God for Him to work through us? There are many whose life journeys do not lead them to find God, even if they diligently search for Him - not to mention those who believed they had found Him but then realized they no longer believe. Are they cast down for their skepticism? Are they unable to, as a Christian might believe, know the Love of God even after their life journeys have come to an end? What exactly is faith, why is it important, and why must one make that leap when there is no proof? I don't mean evidence in support of God, but actual proof.

To believe in something without proof is to me impossible. I don't believe in The Theory of Evolution, but I accept it as the best explanation of the currently available information. Why should I believe in God, a more solid position, with less to support His very existence or that indeed the one I have on which I have the most information is the correct interpretation?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

 

[ChrisL]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

And what about all the people who perished before Jesus???

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Faith is a very personal and individual thing. To me, religion really is a dirty word in that it bespeaks of mans insistence of dutiful traditions that lack any spirituality. Everyone's life journey from birth to death is a culmination of events that help to guide us thru it and God's intent is for us to open our minds & hearts to at the very least acknowledge Him, once we do He will then work in us and thru others close to us, for a greater understanding & building of faith.
To me being a Christian doesn't mean someone that goes to church every Sunday or says long dramatic prayers, or reads the Bible for an hour every day, but more about how they live their lives, treat others and themselves and really do care.

But then again, I wasn't born or raised in the Church to have those pre conceived ideas or notions or biases. Because of life events, I came to the Church &/or 'became' Christian as an adult of my own free will and choice.

There are many whose life journeys do not lead them to find God, even if they diligently search for Him - not to mention those who believed they had found Him but then realized they no longer believe. Are they cast down for their skepticism? Are they unable to, as a Christian might believe, know the Love of God even after their life journeys have come to an end? What exactly is faith, why is it important, and why must one make that leap when there is no proof? I don't mean evidence in support of God, but actual proof.

To believe in something without proof is to me impossible. I don't believe in The Theory of Evolution, but I accept it as the best explanation of the currently available information. Why should I believe in God, a more solid position, with less to support His very existence or that indeed the one I have on which I have the most information is the correct interpretation?

What led you to seek Christ?
I really didn't seek Him, but events in my life brought me to Him at which point I then had the ultimate 'slap along side the head' life after death moment that left me with the choice to accept it & everything it stood for....or deny and walk away. I chose to accept it
Why must we acknowledge God for Him to work through us? Then what would be the point of His working in & through us? If not to bring us closer to Him. It can't really be done until we acknowledge Him.

I am just me with my own beliefs and understandings and I may very well be wrong in my interpretations. For those that are still searching without finding Him, only God Himself can really answer those questions or maybe even a theologian, I don't know since the Bible does assure us if we seek Him, diligently with our hearts, we will find Him.
But I can offer a suggestion to most of those questions and includes the story of the sower of the seed. The sower being God, throwing out the seed (seeds of faith) that some land on rock (or cold heart) & never sprout (possibly those that think they seek Him but never find IDK), some sprout up, yet soon die (those that find Him yet give up too soon), other seed grows in the thicket & is choked out (those who accept Him, but troubles of the world choke out their faith in Him) and other seed that takes deep root and grows in good soil & brings harvest. This story is in the New Testament, one or more of the first 4 books. Not sure exactly where.

Your question of what is faith, you already answered, in a way. Faith is believing without seeing with your eyes/ As with air, you can not see it or touch it, (proof) but it is there and to breath it gives you life.

Also, just because of how a persons life journey turns out and their acceptance or rejection of faith, doesn't mean God and His love isn't still there. Even up until death, possibly even after He is only waiting for you to say yes. I have seen people who have been life long 'scorners' that on their death bed have had a change of heart, and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. This doesn't mean to put it off, have whatever sinful fun and ask forgiveness with your last breath

 

[the_human_being]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

And what about all the people who perished before Jesus???

Before Jesus, they offered sacrifices of atonement for forgiveness of their sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for everyone's sin from then on

 

[JustAnotherNut]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

There are still a number of us that believe otherwise and that He still lives...in us.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

 

[ChrisL]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

And what about all the people who perished before Jesus???

Before Jesus, they offered sacrifices of atonement for forgiveness of their sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for everyone's sin from then on

This doesn't even make sense! Why does god need sacrifices? Care to tackle that?

 

[JustAnotherNut]

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

And what about all the people who perished before Jesus???

Before Jesus, they offered sacrifices of atonement for forgiveness of their sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for everyone's sin from then on

This doesn't even make sense! Why does god need sacrifices? Care to tackle that?

Since your response suggests your tendency toward bitchiness, read the Bible & figure it out for yourself

 

[ChrisL]

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

And what about all the people who perished before Jesus???

Before Jesus, they offered sacrifices of atonement for forgiveness of their sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for everyone's sin from then on

This doesn't even make sense! Why does god need sacrifices? Care to tackle that?

Since your response suggests your tendency toward bitchiness, read the Bible & figure it out for yourself

So, IOW, you don't care to tackle that.