Christians - Predestination: Yes or No?

[Bonzi]

just heart things

 

[Montrovant]

Some also think that Heaven and Hell aren't places...but more to do with the relationship with Him. Heaven is a life lived in agreement with God and Hell is a life without Him

That has always seemed to fit better with the idea of a loving, merciful God than eternal joy or punishment being determined by a single human lifetime.

And yet it is this relationship that is an important factor. It is our choice in how we develop it, how we respond to it and how much we are willing to invest in it. Just as in any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it. His part of the relationship is there and offered to anyone & everyone, solid & unchanging. It is up to us to make the choice everyday, in every situation we face, to choose with Him or without Him.
As in a parental relationship with their child, as the child grows thru different stages, they are sometimes more dependent on the parent, and other times are more independent &/or rebellious. The parent is always there, loving & unchanging, trying to guide and teach the child thru each stage. During the dependent stages, the child is open to the parents instruction, but during rebellious times the child doesn't want anything to do with the parent, their help or teachings & sometimes even runs away, yells at or calls parent names, etc through it all the parent's love is still there. Ups & downs are just a normal part of any relationship. Once the child becomes matured enough for greater understanding, then they can enjoy a solid relationship together, because it has endured thru trials.
If the child runs away or comes of age & leaves, never to return, they never get to experience the joy and closeness or bond of that relationship. Or they may only call on holidays or when they want something, or only because they think they should because of protocol or something, but that isn't a relationship. They don't want to be there or are only using the parent, won't make time for anything more. This is falsehood and not what God wants from us, He wants our hearts and only wants us as long as we want Him.

I understand the parent/child analogy for God and humanity, but it has always been flawed. In a normal human parent/child relationship, the child has no reason to doubt the existence of the parent.

 

[Mad Scientist]

"All Knowing" and "All Seeing" does NOT equal "All Controlling".

 

[hangover]

I personally don't believe (or don't want to believe) in predestination.
Yet, there is much in the Bible that point to the contrary (and also, much in the Bible that points to God's will that none be lost) -

It's a debate that has been raging for centuries.

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

 

[Mudda]

The debate is the result of paradoxical descriptions of the Jewish God YHWH and the Christian God of the New Testament where you require salvation through Jesus.

Jesus wanted Jews to accept his interpretation of Judaism so He made claims of divinity and told people that the only way to paradise is to through himself. It's a way to manipulate people: either chose me or eternal damnation. That's not exactly freewill: it's coercion.

But the vast majority of the Jews didn't buy what Jesus was selling. They figured he was just another false messiah. According to Judaism there is no salvation. You either keep God's laws or you're a gentile snd that gets you to paradise or you're a Je who hasn't followed God's laws and you never live again after death.

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

You still clinging onto that book of bullshit after it's been shown to be nothing but heresay and myths?

 

[Mudda]

If there was a heaven and hell, pretty much nobody would even get into heaven anyways. Mankind is a violent, lying sack of doucheness. Almost no exceptions.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Specifically the Bible does say 144,000.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Some also think that Heaven and Hell aren't places...but more to do with the relationship with Him. Heaven is a life lived in agreement with God and Hell is a life without Him

That has always seemed to fit better with the idea of a loving, merciful God than eternal joy or punishment being determined by a single human lifetime.

And yet it is this relationship that is an important factor. It is our choice in how we develop it, how we respond to it and how much we are willing to invest in it. Just as in any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it. His part of the relationship is there and offered to anyone & everyone, solid & unchanging. It is up to us to make the choice everyday, in every situation we face, to choose with Him or without Him.
As in a parental relationship with their child, as the child grows thru different stages, they are sometimes more dependent on the parent, and other times are more independent &/or rebellious. The parent is always there, loving & unchanging, trying to guide and teach the child thru each stage. During the dependent stages, the child is open to the parents instruction, but during rebellious times the child doesn't want anything to do with the parent, their help or teachings & sometimes even runs away, yells at or calls parent names, etc through it all the parent's love is still there. Ups & downs are just a normal part of any relationship. Once the child becomes matured enough for greater understanding, then they can enjoy a solid relationship together, because it has endured thru trials.
If the child runs away or comes of age & leaves, never to return, they never get to experience the joy and closeness or bond of that relationship. Or they may only call on holidays or when they want something, or only because they think they should because of protocol or something, but that isn't a relationship. They don't want to be there or are only using the parent, won't make time for anything more. This is falsehood and not what God wants from us, He wants our hearts and only wants us as long as we want Him.

I understand the parent/child analogy for God and humanity, but it has always been flawed. In a normal human parent/child relationship, the child has no reason to doubt the existence of the parent.

Since God is Supreme and He and His ways are perfect, I'd have to say any flaws were in the human understanding. And yes, you do have a point about the very existence and there was a time when I was like you & others that didn't believe, nor that it was even possible.

If you are right & there is no such thing...what's the worst to happen? We die & that's the end of that. If I'm right, then it's a whole new ball game. Either way, we are all going to die, right? No escaping that. Personally I'd rather spend eternity upstairs than down, but if I'm judged by His righteousness & sentenced to the pit, then so be it. But at least until then, I have something to hope & strive for and His guidance & mercy along the way. That's not to say I don't also have problems, tests of my faith & suffer consequences of my mistakes.

IF you are willing and open to the idea, ask Him if He's real & to show you in a way you could understand. Doesn't even have to be in a church. Then give it some time. It might happen right away, or maybe not until months or years later. He'll decide when the time is right. Then it will be up to you to either accept or reject Him.
Or try reading the Bible. I've heard it best to read certain books or stories first before others & I don't remember which or in what order. For me, I can't do that. I have to start at the beginning and read thru till the end, like reading a novel. But that's just me & doesn't always work the same for others. Just don't stop with one verse or chapter. Or don't, it's your choice.

 

[defcon4]

The problem is as Paul explained so well, no man is capable of keeping the Law. The Law dooms man.

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

You still clinging onto that book of bullshit after it's been shown to be nothing but heresay and myths?

Since you do not have the understanding of it yet, you call it bullshit. You will learn your lesson after a while just as hangover said. Then, you will graduate to another class where you will learn other lessons or be flunked and repeat it until you learned it and move on again.

 

[defcon4]

It's a guideline. Ultimately, the are 2 truths - there is 1 God. Jesus died for our sins so we can be acceptable in God's sight so we can live with him forever.

The Devil/Satan loves for people to get tangled up I the details.

If you choose not to believe, that is your choice (unless you believe in Predestination)

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul’s statement, “Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, “Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it” (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God’s loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

The word “forgiveness” or “pardon” (in Hebrew, s‑l‑h) appears for the first time in the story of the golden calf: “Pardon our iniquity and our sin” (Exod. 34:9).The story of the spies contains a similar idea: “Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to Your great kindness, as You have tolerated [carried] this people ever since Egypt” (Num. 13:5).This text is followed by the verse that is central to the Yom Kippur liturgy: “And the Lord said, ‘I pardon, as you have asked'” (Num. 14:37).

These narratives establish the concept of the God of Israel as a God of mercy and forgiveness. In revealing His nature to Moses, God indicates His forgiving nature much more fully than He did in the Ten Commandments. God emphasizes mercy, “carrying sin” and extending lovingkindness far beyond the extent of punishment. Thus, Moses learns that God’s essence is not only His absolute Being and His absolute freedom, but His fundamental mercy. It is not surprising that the passage in which these attributes of God are detailed (Exod. 34:6‑7) became the cornerstone of the liturgy of forgiveness during the High Holy Day season.

Thank you for being civil in this matter and thank you for the knowledge you shared.

 

[defcon4]

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

How do you know?

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

How do you know?

Read my response to Bonzi...

 

[guno]

 

[Mudda]

But what about those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the NT? Damned no matter what?

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

You still clinging onto that book of bullshit after it's been shown to be nothing but heresay and myths?

Since you do not have the understanding of it yet, you call it bullshit. You will learn your lesson after a while just as hangover said. Then, you will graduate to another class where you will learn other lessons or be flunked and repeat it until you learned it and move on again.

I understand plenty. I went to Sunday school, a Catholic grade school and high school, went to church growing up... It's all made up stuff. No proof of anything big from the bible. Like, how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back? Polar bears?

 

[Mudda]

It's a guideline. Ultimately, the are 2 truths - there is 1 God. Jesus died for our sins so we can be acceptable in God's sight so we can live with him forever.

The Devil/Satan loves for people to get tangled up I the details.

If you choose not to believe, that is your choice (unless you believe in Predestination)

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul’s statement, “Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, “Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it” (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God’s loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

The word “forgiveness” or “pardon” (in Hebrew, s‑l‑h) appears for the first time in the story of the golden calf: “Pardon our iniquity and our sin” (Exod. 34:9).The story of the spies contains a similar idea: “Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to Your great kindness, as You have tolerated [carried] this people ever since Egypt” (Num. 13:5).This text is followed by the verse that is central to the Yom Kippur liturgy: “And the Lord said, ‘I pardon, as you have asked'” (Num. 14:37).

These narratives establish the concept of the God of Israel as a God of mercy and forgiveness. In revealing His nature to Moses, God indicates His forgiving nature much more fully than He did in the Ten Commandments. God emphasizes mercy, “carrying sin” and extending lovingkindness far beyond the extent of punishment. Thus, Moses learns that God’s essence is not only His absolute Being and His absolute freedom, but His fundamental mercy. It is not surprising that the passage in which these attributes of God are detailed (Exod. 34:6‑7) became the cornerstone of the liturgy of forgiveness during the High Holy Day season.

Thank you for being civil in this matter and thank you for the knowledge you shared.

You mean his knowledge of copy&paste?

 

[guno]

It's a guideline. Ultimately, the are 2 truths - there is 1 God. Jesus died for our sins so we can be acceptable in God's sight so we can live with him forever.

The Devil/Satan loves for people to get tangled up I the details.

If you choose not to believe, that is your choice (unless you believe in Predestination)

Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul’s statement, “Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.

Judaism teaches the biblical way to repentance and reconciliation with God. Sincere repentance in which the sinner pledges to rectify his sinful ways and lead a righteous life is one means that is open at all times to all of humanity (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). God counsels Cain, “Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do good [that is, change your ways], will it not be lifted up [that is, you will be forgiven]. But if you do not do good, sin rests at the door; and it desires you, but you may rule over it” (Genesis 4:6-7). God informs Cain that repentance and subsequent forgiveness are always open to him. The remedy for sin is clear. Biblically, God’s loving-kindness depends on right conduct and extends to all humanity.

The word “forgiveness” or “pardon” (in Hebrew, s‑l‑h) appears for the first time in the story of the golden calf: “Pardon our iniquity and our sin” (Exod. 34:9).The story of the spies contains a similar idea: “Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to Your great kindness, as You have tolerated [carried] this people ever since Egypt” (Num. 13:5).This text is followed by the verse that is central to the Yom Kippur liturgy: “And the Lord said, ‘I pardon, as you have asked'” (Num. 14:37).

These narratives establish the concept of the God of Israel as a God of mercy and forgiveness. In revealing His nature to Moses, God indicates His forgiving nature much more fully than He did in the Ten Commandments. God emphasizes mercy, “carrying sin” and extending lovingkindness far beyond the extent of punishment. Thus, Moses learns that God’s essence is not only His absolute Being and His absolute freedom, but His fundamental mercy. It is not surprising that the passage in which these attributes of God are detailed (Exod. 34:6‑7) became the cornerstone of the liturgy of forgiveness during the High Holy Day season.

Thank you for being civil in this matter and thank you for the knowledge you shared.

You mean his knowledge of copy&paste?

No, posting what Judaism teaches, base on the Torah or what Judaism teaches and is the basis for. Judaism isn't christianity without the christian god jesus

 

[Bonzi]

Nope...

There is purgatory aka Earth...

Oh, Heaven and Hell is here and ask me how I know?

How do you know?

we said the same thing

 

[Granny]

Sitting in Sunday night youth services one night as a teenager, predestination (one of the tenets of the Presbyterian Church) was the topic the youth minister was teaching. I asked point blank if he was saying that even if you lived a good life, doing all the right stuff you could still go to hell; or if you went through life doing all kinds of bad stuff like robbery, murder and rape you could still go to Heaven ... simply because God pre-determined that outcome before you were ever born. His answer was, "Yes." It was another nail in the coffin for me (so to speak). Having lived in a Presbyterian orphanage (which was no picnic), hearing "God is love" while getting the shit beat out of you ... the ONLY verse we were not allowed to recite in nightly religious sessions ... was "Jesus wept." We went to church every Sunday (where all the orphans sat in the two back rows of pews reserved for us), had Wednesday vesper services on the front lawn of the orphanage in summer and the Chapel in the Administration Building in winter, Sunday night services in the Chapel, nightly sessions in the "cottages" where we lived. One night each week our Bible teacher would come to the cottages and tell us Bible stories. In truth, we all DID love her - to this day I have never heard one single bad word about her from any of my orphan brothers and sister with whom I'm still in touch with after all these decades later. And we were brothers and sisters - because we were all each other had.
The other adult in our lives who we really loved was the choir director and we still have fond memories of him today. Stories coming from kids who were transferred from the Baptist orphanage to the one I was in told absolute horror stories of what went on in that place.

After coming back home to live with my mother, I would sometimes BEG God to let me be back in the orphanage or anywhere other than where I was. When I got my first job after graduating high school my shifts were sometimes on Sunday and I ultimately requested the overnight shift and dropped out of church altogether - and never had to see my mother but so much since she worked strictly days. After I moved away from home and started dating the person I married I converted to Catholicism - and boy did THAT blow my mother and her family out of the water. After that, my husband got sucked into a religious cult - which I hated. It was a living hell for me and I wanted OUT. One day, following the daily "rules and regulations" of the cult, I was praying ... the same old stuff day after day after day. I suddenly straightened up and asked myself, "What in hell are you doing? God isn't listening to a single word of this same old crap day after day." When a huge scandal broke - I saw my way out, took it, and never looked back.

But something kept eating at me - something was missing in my life - I felt I had nowhere to turn and it suddenly dawned on me: Talk to a Rabbi!! He will have no ties to Christianity!" I just picked out a Temple and the Rabbi came to my house. That man sat on my sofa and cried as I tried to convey all my religious turmoil to him. I ultimately started attending services at Temple and did so for a good while. It was comforting and it made sense to me. The Rabbi and the congregation pretty much saved my life in terms of getting me on an even keel and getting me help with medical care, etc. for my children.

Today, I don't attend any church, but I do believe in God. I pray to Him ... I argue with Him ... but it's a matter of "Him and me." I believe He's a loving God ... and definitely that He answers prayers - not necessarily in MY time, but in HIS time. It's all good.

I was in the checkout line at the grocery store a couple weeks ago and glanced behind me. There was a man with two items in his hand and I asked if he would like to get in front of me since I had several items. We started chatting a little while waiting for the cashier and before he left, he handed me a business card which I looked at after I got home. I gathered from his email address that he might be or may have been a trucker. I flipped the card over and on the back he had written 5 words ... 5 words of very good advice: "Believe God ... Not The Clergy!" I still have the card on my computer desk and still look at those words often.

 

[hangover]

No. The very mission the Father sent the Christ on was to save the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The problem is that most churches and most Christians have already concluded that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission he was sent to accomplish. That's the sad fact of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

You still clinging onto that book of bullshit after it's been shown to be nothing but heresay and myths?

Since you do not have the understanding of it yet, you call it bullshit. You will learn your lesson after a while just as hangover said. Then, you will graduate to another class where you will learn other lessons or be flunked and repeat it until you learned it and move on again.

how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back? Polar bears?

The UFO that took Enoch and Elijah brought them.

 

[Mudda]

Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe that we are all already saved - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, even us Godless atheists, etc.?

No one can know the mind of God, it doesn't fit in a finite mind. It won't even fit in all the books in the world.

God being the embodiment of everything positive, and evil being the negative...forgiveness is positive and therefore eternal, and condemnation is negative and will pass away.

Life is a process of learning. What isn't learned in this incarnation must be learned in the next class. Once you've learned the lessons, you can graduate to a higher form of existence.

Refusal to learn the lessons is futile.

Here is the lesson of reincarnation, taught by Jesus....
Matthew 17:10-13

You still clinging onto that book of bullshit after it's been shown to be nothing but heresay and myths?

Since you do not have the understanding of it yet, you call it bullshit. You will learn your lesson after a while just as hangover said. Then, you will graduate to another class where you will learn other lessons or be flunked and repeat it until you learned it and move on again.

how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back? Polar bears?

The UFO that took Enoch and Elijah brought them.

So you don't know? Got it.