Common theme

[uhkilleez]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

I would absolutely love for one single Christian to prove to me beyond reason and logic their God is the true God, and no evil exists within the Bible.

I would absolutely love for one single Muslim to prove to me beyond reason and logic that Allah is the true prophet of God, and no lies or evil exist within the Qur'an.

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

So here it is folks, no matter what you believe, prove to me your beliefs are true and honest. Here is your chance to show me that I am wrong, and one of our Earthly religions is truly correct. After all, you have the support of God on your side, no? It should be quite easy for you. Shouldn't it?

 

[lakeview]

You call 7:00 AM "night"?

If you're looking for one true religion good luck with that. I have a feeling this thread will either be a total bust or extremely amusing.

 

[uhkilleez]

You call 7:00 AM "night"?

If you're looking for one true religion good luck with that. I have a feeling this thread will either be a total bust or extremely amusing.

I was aiming at both, but yes, 7am is my nighttime.

 

[lakeview]

I know this is not what you're looking for but I can't defend religion. I go to the church I go to because I've gone there since I was a child and I'm used to it but I suffer no delusions as to why it is the way it is, it's what's in your heart that gets you into the Kingdom not what church you go to.

 

[Chuckt]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

Are we here just for your amusement? Some of us actually work on real issues and we also get tired and take breaks.

 

[Dajjal]

There is no proof of the existence or non existence of God, either in philosophy or science.

 

[TheShinyOne]

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

Sol is Roman.

 

[Avatar4321]

If you want to know God, you have to follow God's path for obtaining a witness.

The scriptures show that the only reason Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ, the very Son of God was because the Father revealed it to Him. If you want a witness you can recieve it the way He did. But that involves you working for it. You have to seek Him out. You can't sit around and wait for someone to prove it to you.

I know God lives and loves you because the Spirit told me so. The only way for you to learn it is for the Spirit to tell you. We could have huge academic debates on the matter. and that could be lots of fun. But without the Spirit teaching you, you won't know. You could have angels from the heavens teaching you, but without the Spirit you still won't know. (I know it seems like you would know for sure, but the Spirit is far more powerful in imparting knowledge).

As long as you expect others to do the work for you, you wont obtain knowledge.

 

[theword]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

I would absolutely love for one single Christian to prove to me beyond reason and logic their God is the true God, and no evil exists within the Bible.

I would absolutely love for one single Muslim to prove to me beyond reason and logic that Allah is the true prophet of God, and no lies or evil exist within the Qur'an.

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

So here it is folks, no matter what you believe, prove to me your beliefs are true and honest. Here is your chance to show me that I am wrong, and one of our Earthly religions is truly correct. After all, you have the support of God on your side, no? It should be quite easy for you. Shouldn't it?

When you can design and build a tree from nothing but your thoughts, then I will worship you. But until then, I will worship the Creator of everything, including all the trees of this first age.

 

[Avatar4321]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

I would absolutely love for one single Christian to prove to me beyond reason and logic their God is the true God, and no evil exists within the Bible.

I would absolutely love for one single Muslim to prove to me beyond reason and logic that Allah is the true prophet of God, and no lies or evil exist within the Qur'an.

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

So here it is folks, no matter what you believe, prove to me your beliefs are true and honest. Here is your chance to show me that I am wrong, and one of our Earthly religions is truly correct. After all, you have the support of God on your side, no? It should be quite easy for you. Shouldn't it?

When you can design and build a tree from nothing but your thoughts, then I will worship you. But until then, I will worship the Creator of everything, including all the trees of this first age.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but where exactly did he ask you to worship him?

 

[Mojo2]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

I would absolutely love for one single Christian to prove to me beyond reason and logic their God is the true God, and no evil exists within the Bible.

I would absolutely love for one single Muslim to prove to me beyond reason and logic that Allah is the true prophet of God, and no lies or evil exist within the Qur'an.

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

So here it is folks, no matter what you believe, prove to me your beliefs are true and honest. Here is your chance to show me that I am wrong, and one of our Earthly religions is truly correct. After all, you have the support of God on your side, no? It should be quite easy for you. Shouldn't it?

When I have tried getting to the heart of the matter of who is the good guy and who is the bad guy when it comes to Islam vs America, choose America.

I don't care what or whom or how anyone worships as long as they are content to allow everyone else that same consideration.

Islam doesn't respect those boundaries or afford others that consideration.

Here's the key to understanding the landscape of religious tolerance.

There are a great many moderate Muslims but...

ISLAM IS NOT MODERATE.

Once you start from that understanding, everything else opens up like the pages of a good book and makes more sense than if you go about it any other way. The fundamentalists and Jihadists don't want the intended prey to be alarmed or on their guard so they try to obscure the truth and confuse the information.

 

[uhkilleez]

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

Sol is Roman.

You're right, I had him mixed up with Set. All these religions and their similar gods with different names...

 

[uhkilleez]

If you want to know God, you have to follow God's path for obtaining a witness.

The scriptures show that the only reason Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ, the very Son of God was because the Father revealed it to Him. If you want a witness you can recieve it the way He did. But that involves you working for it. You have to seek Him out. You can't sit around and wait for someone to prove it to you.

I know God lives and loves you because the Spirit told me so. The only way for you to learn it is for the Spirit to tell you. We could have huge academic debates on the matter. and that could be lots of fun. But without the Spirit teaching you, you won't know. You could have angels from the heavens teaching you, but without the Spirit you still won't know. (I know it seems like you would know for sure, but the Spirit is far more powerful in imparting knowledge).

As long as you expect others to do the work for you, you wont obtain knowledge.

You are like a broken record, and I've explained my experiences to you in the past. I am well aware of your stance and I've been down that road before, it was a dead end.

I am not expecting anyone to do the work for me, I am asking you to explain your beliefs and convince me of them.

 

[uhkilleez]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

I would absolutely love for one single Christian to prove to me beyond reason and logic their God is the true God, and no evil exists within the Bible.

I would absolutely love for one single Muslim to prove to me beyond reason and logic that Allah is the true prophet of God, and no lies or evil exist within the Qur'an.

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

So here it is folks, no matter what you believe, prove to me your beliefs are true and honest. Here is your chance to show me that I am wrong, and one of our Earthly religions is truly correct. After all, you have the support of God on your side, no? It should be quite easy for you. Shouldn't it?

When I have tried getting to the heart of the matter of who is the good guy and who is the bad guy when it comes to Islam vs America, choose America.

I don't care what or whom or how anyone worships as long as they are content to allow everyone else that same consideration.

Islam doesn't respect those boundaries or afford others that consideration.

Here's the key to understanding the landscape of religious tolerance.

There are a great many moderate Muslims but...

ISLAM IS NOT MODERATE.

Once you start from that understanding, everything else opens up like the pages of a good book and makes more sense than if you go about it any other way. The fundamentalists and Jihadists don't want the intended prey to be alarmed or on their guard so they try to obscure the truth and confuse the information.

Islam is not moderate? That is rather closed minded of you. Extremists are not moderate, but Islam is not full of extremist, they have sects of extremism. No different from Christianity; Just take a look at the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[starflight]

I therefore think that it many respects, what we choose to believe is more of a choice rather than a proof.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Prophecy can be described and proven without faith. It is the proof you seek.

 

[uhkilleez]

Prophecy can be described and proven without faith. It is the proof you seek.

You have included so much proof in your post, what a persuasive argument... None of the prophetic statements in the Bible, especially that contained in Revelations, have ever been proven. I'd love to hear your argument refuting that.

 

[Mojo2]

I am noticing not many of you are active around this time of night, which has not always been the case through my experience on this forum. It begs me the question, the question which has driven my existence in this world. It is the most important question of all, and with its answer we can solve a multitude of problems. "Why is that?".

I would absolutely love for one single Christian to prove to me beyond reason and logic their God is the true God, and no evil exists within the Bible.

I would absolutely love for one single Muslim to prove to me beyond reason and logic that Allah is the true prophet of God, and no lies or evil exist within the Qur'an.

I would absolutely love for one Egyptian to prove to me that their Sun god, Horus, is the true God of this universe, that his daily battles with Sol and constant resurrections are the sole reasoning behind the rising of our Sun and life on this planet.

So here it is folks, no matter what you believe, prove to me your beliefs are true and honest. Here is your chance to show me that I am wrong, and one of our Earthly religions is truly correct. After all, you have the support of God on your side, no? It should be quite easy for you. Shouldn't it?

When I have tried getting to the heart of the matter of who is the good guy and who is the bad guy when it comes to Islam vs America, choose America.

I don't care what or whom or how anyone worships as long as they are content to allow everyone else that same consideration.

Islam doesn't respect those boundaries or afford others that consideration.

Here's the key to understanding the landscape of religious tolerance.

There are a great many moderate Muslims but...

ISLAM IS NOT MODERATE.

Once you start from that understanding, everything else opens up like the pages of a good book and makes more sense than if you go about it any other way. The fundamentalists and Jihadists don't want the intended prey to be alarmed or on their guard so they try to obscure the truth and confuse the information.

Islam is not moderate? That is rather closed minded of you. Extremists are not moderate, but Islam is not full of extremist, they have sects of extremism. No different from Christianity; Just take a look at the Westboro Baptist Church.

I want you to re-think your perception.

What if good Muslims think that your idea of "moderation" indicates the Muslim has a lack of dedication to Allah?

" Only one ambition is worthy of Islam," he liked to say, " the ambition to save the world from the curse of democracy: to teach men that they cannot rule themselves on the basis of manmade laws. Mankind has strayed from the path of God, we must return to that path or face certain annihilation."

Thus those who claim that Islam is compatible with democracy should know that they are not flattering Muslims.

In fact, most Muslims would feel insulted by such assertions.

How could a manmade form of government, invented by the heathen Greeks, be compared with Islam which is God's final word to man, the only true faith, they would ask.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1138942/posts

AMERICANS seem to believe the ideal Muslim, FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, is the ideal Muslim FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW. We want and need Muslims to be moderate so we don't HAVE to get ugly with them. But that's not reality. They already believe your attitude is presumptuous and self serving. And their leadership has been preparing for a war with US for decades. In fact, we are being warred against and many of us don't know it.

Sleeper Jihadiis are slipping into America and unobtrusively slithering around our nation's vital organs waiting to act.

How can I say that?

I know more about Islam than you.

How can I say that?

Because you said this:

Islam is not moderate? That is rather closed minded of you.

If you knew more you would see that what I am saying is true. It's not a matter of being closed minded.

And I'm only closed minded to lies and myths.

I think it is you who needs to open his mind on this subject.

Try reading about Islam before posting your naive, misguided and ill-informed beliefs about it in a forum where you will be forced to support your statements.

And on a subject like this you know it can become a heated discussion.

So, my essential truths are pretty simple when it comes to Islam and Muslims.

See if you can relate to it.

The Koran orders all Muslims to perform violent or non-violent Jihad. Jihad is, ultimately, to help the progression of Islam. Progression to what end? Towards conquering the World for Allah and making Islam dominant over all other religions and Governments.

To bring about the worldwide caliphate Muslims will, ultimately, confront non-Muslims and 'moderate" Muslims alike, and give them an opportunity to convert to islam, defeat them in battle and take them as captives or kill them.

Not all Muslims are violent Jihadists although there are estimated to be more than enough would-be violent Jihadists to accomplish their mission when they believe the time is right.

The Muslim Brotherhood is the leading group behind the global effort for world domination. And in the 1990's in a conference in Chicago a Muslim Brotherhood spokesperson advised the attendees not to use violence in the United States in order to try to help bring about a downfall of our government which follows MAN'S laws instead of Allah's laws (Sharia).

AIP Conference, Chicago Illinois, 1996

Speaker - Abdulrahman Alamoudi, Executive Director of the American Muslim Council (AMC)


"If we are outside this country we can say O Allah, destroy America, but once we are here, our mission in this country is to change it. There is no way for Muslims to be violent in America, no way. We have other means to do it. You can be violent anywhere else but in America."

Islamic Conferences

They plan to use non-violent methods of bringing America down and that includes infiltration and use of our own laws and very bold Jihadi who are willing to fight US (The Great Satan) 'in his own backyard.'

They have been studied in how they take over countries and generally speaking the pattern of conquest follows this pattern called the Five Stages of Islam.

Forget the Five Pillars of Islam. It is the Five Stages of Islam that threaten the fundamental freedoms of Western Democracy. Freedoms which include freedom of thought, expression, and association and the crucial derived right of freedom of the press. We should never forget that "Islam" means submission -- the opposite of self-determination and Enlightenment values.

Six years ago Dr. Peter Hammond published a remarkable book which included a statistical study of the correlation between Muslim to non-Muslim population ratios and the transition from conciliatory Islam to fascist Islam. The stages are the same in 2011 but the demographics have changed to show an alarming progression. Many European nations and the U.S. are on the cusp of moving to a higher bracket. The demographics change but the story is the same. First comes the taqiyya and the kitman; then comes the Sword of Islam. Imam Rauf, the Ground Zero Mosque promoter, is the current master of taqiyya. He has gulled everyone from Bloomberg to Maureen Dowd of the NYT -- who fanaticizes over male Muslims. Expect doppelgangers of Khomeini for stage 5 and Islamic PEACE at last.

Archived-Articles: The Five Stages of Islam

And so, although there are a number of Muslims (moderate though they might be, for the most part) needed to effect these strategies it isn't nearly as many as you might think.

In war it is ALWAYS a small minority of warriors who win or lose the battles.

So, you can be as nice as you want to be with any nice moderate Muslims you want to be nice to and it won't make much of a difference.

It is only through our laws and our policies that the fight for America will be won or lost.

But the bottom line is that the Koran orders all Muslims to help conquer all religions and governments on Earth for Islam. About that there is no dispute or contention from Muslims.

So, no it isn't a matter of being closed or open minded.

It's about doing your homework.

I hope I've helped with yours here.

 

[Mojo2]

For those who think I'm being "closed minded" about Islam not being moderate or if you think Islam is compatible with Democracy, read this.

Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"

Benador Associates ^ | May 19, 2004 | Amir Taheri
Posted on 5/19/2004 9:36:50 PM by F14 Pilot

Amir Taheri's remarks during the debate on " Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am glad that this debate takes place in English.

Because, were it to be conducted in any of the languages of our part of the world, we would not have possessed the vocabulary needed.

To understand a civilisation it is important to understand its vocabulary.

If it was not on their tongues it is likely that it was not on their minds either.

There was no word in any of the Muslim languages for democracy until the 1890s. Even then the Greek word democracy entered Muslim languages with little change: democrasi in Persian, dimokraytiyah in Arabic, demokratio in Turkish.

Democracy as the proverbial schoolboy would know is based on one fundamental principle: equality.

The Greek word for equal isos is used in more than 200 compound nouns; including isoteos (equality) and Isologia (equal or free speech) and isonomia (equal treatment).

But again we find no equivalent in any of the Muslim languages. The words we have such as barabari in Persian and sawiyah in Arabic mean juxtaposition or levelling.

Nor do we have a word for politics.

The word siassah, now used as a synonym for politics, initially meant whipping stray camels into line.( Sa'es al-kheil is a person who brings back lost camels to the caravan. )The closest translation may be: regimentation.

Nor is there mention of such words as government and the state in the Koran.

It is no accident that early Muslims translated numerous ancient Greek texts but never those related to political matters. The great Avicenna himself translated Aristotle's Poetics. But there was no translation of Aristotle's Politics in Persian until 1963.

Lest us return to the issue of equality.

The idea is unacceptable to Islam.

For the non-believer cannot be the equal of the believer.

Even among the believers only those who subscribe to the three so-called Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam ( Ahl el-Kitab) are regarded as fully human.

Here is the hierarchy of human worth in Islam:

At the summit are free male Muslims

Next come Muslim male slaves

Then come free Muslim women

Next come Muslim slave women.

Then come free Jewish and /or Christian men

Then come slave Jewish and/or Christian men

Then come slave Jewish and/or Christian women.

Each category has rights that must be respected.

The People of the Book have always been protected and relatively well-treated by Muslim rulers, but often in the context of a form of apartheid known as dhimmitude.

The status of the rest of humanity, those whose faiths are not recognised by Islam or who have no faith at all, has never been spelled out although wherever Muslim rulers faced such communities they often treated them with a certain measure of tolerance and respect ( As in the case of Hindus under the Muslim dynasties of India.)

Non-Muslims can, and have often been, treated with decency, but never as equals.

(There is a hierarchy even for animals and plants. Seven animals and seven plants will assuredly go to heaven while seven others of each will end up in Hell.)

Democracy means the rule of the demos, the common people, or what is now known as popular or national sovereignty.

In Islam, however, power belongs only to God: al-hukm l'illah. The man who exercises that power on earth is known as Khalifat al-Allah, the regent of God.

But even then the Khalifah or Caliph cannot act as legislator. The law has already been spelled out and fixed for ever by God.

The only task that remains is its discovery, interpretation and application.

That, of course, allows for a substantial space in which different styles of rule could develop.

But the bottom line is that no Islamic government can be democratic in the sense of allowing the common people equal shares in legislation.

Islam divides human activities into five categories from the permitted to the sinful, leaving little room for human interpretation, let alone ethical innovations.

What we must understand is that Islam has its own vision of the world and man's place in it.

To say that Islam is incompatible with democracy should not be seen as a disparagement of Islam.

On the contrary, many Muslims would see it as a compliment because they sincerely believe that their idea of rule by God is superior to that of rule by men which is democracy.

In Muslim literature and philosophy being forsaken by God is the worst that can happen to man.

The great Persian poet Rumi pleads thus:

Oh, God, do not leave our affairs to us

For, if You do, woe be to us.

Rumi mocks those who claim that men can rule themselves.

He says:

You are not reign even over your beard,

That grows without your permission.

How can you pretend, therefore,

To rule about right and wrong?

The expression "abandoned by God" sends shivers down Muslim spines. For it spells the doom not only of individuals but of entire civilisations.

The Koran tells the stories of tribes, nations and civilisations that perished when God left them to their devices.

The great Persian poet Attar says :

I have learned of Divine Rule in Yathirb ( i.e. Medinah, the city of the Prophet)

What need do I have of the wisdom of the Greeks?

Hafez, another great Persian poet, blamed man's "hobut" or fall on the use of his own judgment against that of God:

I was an angel and my abode was the eternal paradise

Adam ( i.e.) man brought me to this place of desolation

Islamic tradition holds that God has always intervened in the affairs of men, notably by dispatching 124000 prophets or emissaries to inform the mortals of His wishes and warnings.

Many Islamist thinkers regard democracy with horror.

The late Ayatollah Khomeini called democracy " a form of prostitution" because he who gets the most votes wins the power that belongs only to God.

Sayyed Qutub, the Egyptian who has emerged as the ideological mentor of Safalists, spent a year in the United States in the 1950s.

He found "a nation that has forgotten God and been forsaken by Him; an arrogant nation that wants to rule itself."

Last year Yussuf al-Ayyeri, one of the leading theoreticians of today's Islamist movement, published a book ( available on the Internet) in which he warned that the real danger to Islam did not come from American tanks and helicopter gunships in Iraq but from the idea of democracy and rule by the people.

Maudoodi, another of the Islamist theoreticians now fashionable, dreamed of a political system in which human beings would act as automatons in accordance with rules set by God.

He said that God has arranged man's biological functions in such a way that their operation is beyond human control. For our non-biological functions, notably our politics, God has set rules that we have to discover and apply once and for all so that our societies can be on auto-pilot so to speak.

The late Saudi theologian, Sheikh Muhammad bin Ibrahim al-Jubair, a man I respected though seldom agreed with, sincerely believed that the root cause of all of our contemporary ills was the spread of democracy.

" Only one ambition is worthy of Islam," he liked to say, " the ambition to save the world from the curse of democracy: to teach men that they cannot rule themselves on the basis of manmade laws. Mankind has strayed from the path of God, we must return to that path or face certain annihilation."

Thus those who claim that Islam is compatible with democracy should know that they are not flattering Muslims.

In fact, most Muslims would feel insulted by such assertions.

How could a manmade form of government, invented by the heathen Greeks, be compared with Islam which is God's final word to man, the only true faith, they would ask.

In the past 14 centuries Muslims have, on occasions, succeeded in creating successful societies without democracy.

And there is no guarantee that democracy never produces disastrous results. (After all Hitler was democratically elected.)

The fact that almost all Muslim states today can be rated as failures or, at least, underachievers, is not because they are Islamic but because they are ruled by corrupt and despotic elites that, even when they proclaim an Islamist ideology, are, in fact, secular dictators.

Let us recall the founding myth of democracy as related by Protagoras in Plato.

Protagoras's claim that the rule of the people, democracy, is the best, is ridiculed by Socrates who points out that men always call on experts to deal with specific tasks but when it comes to the more important matters concerning the city, i.e. the community, they allow every Tom , Dick and Harry an equal say.

Protagoras says that when man was created he lived a solitary existence and was unable to protect himself and his kin against more powerful beasts.

Consequently men came together to secure their lives by founding cities. But the cities were torn by strife because inhabitants did wrong to one another.

Zeus, watching the proceedings, realised that the reason that things were going badly was that men did not have the art of managing the city ( politike techne).

Without that art man was heading for destruction.

So, Zeus called in his messenger, Hermes and asked him to deliver two gifts to mankind: aidos and dike.

Aidos is a sense of shame and a concern for the good opinion of others.

Dike here means respect for the right of others and implies a sense of justice that seeks civil peace through adjudication.

Before setting off Hermes asks a decisive question: Should I deliver this new art to a select few, as was the case in all other arts, or to all?

Zeus replies with no hesitation : To all. Let all have their share.

Protagoras concludes his reply to Socrates' criticism of democracy thus:" Hence it comes about, Socrates, that people in the cities, and especially in Athens, listen only to experts in matters of expertise but when they meet for consultation on the political art, i.e. of the general question of government, everybody participates."

Traditional Islamic political thought is closer to Socrates than to Protagoras.

The common folk, al-awwam, are regarded as "animals "( al-awwam kal anaam!)

The interpretation of the Divine Law is reserved only for the experts.

In Iran there is even a body called The Assembly of Experts.

Political power, like many other domains, including philosophy, is reserved for the " khawas" who, in some Sufi traditions, are even exempt from the ritual rules of the faith.

The " common folk", however, must do as they are told either by the text and tradition or by fatwas issued by the experts. Khomeini coined the word "mustazafeen" (the feeble ones) to describe the common folk.

In the Greek tradition once Zeus has taught men the art of politics he does not try to rule them.

To be sure he and other Gods do intervene in earthly matters but always episodically and mostly in pursuit of their illicit pleasures.

Polytheism is by its pluralistic nature is tolerant, open to new gods, and new views of old gods. Its mythology personifies natural forces that could be adapted, by allegory, to metaphysical concepts.

One could in the same city and at the same time mock Zeus as a promiscuous old rake, henpecked and cuckolded by Juno, or worship him as justice defied.

This is not possible in monotheism especially Islam, the only truly monotheistic of the three Abrahamic faiths.

In monotheism for the One to be stable in its One-ness it is imperative that the many be stabilised in their many-ness.

The God of monotheism does not discuss or negotiate matters with mortals.

He dictates, be it the 10 Commandments or the Koran which was already composed and completed before Allah sent his Hermes, Archangel Gabriel, to dictate it to Muhammad:

Read, the Koran starts with the command; In the name of Thy God The Most High!

Islam's incompatibility with democracy is not unique. It is shared by other religions. For faith is about certainty while democracy is about doubt. There is no changing of one's mind in faith, while democracy is about changing minds and sides.

If we were to use a more technical terminology faith creates a nexus and democracy a series.

Democracy is like people waiting for a bus.

They are of different backgrounds and have different interests. We don't care what their religion is or how they vote. All they have in common is their desire to get on that bus. And they get off at whatever stop they wish.

Faith, however is internalised. Turned into a nexus it controls man's every thought and move even in his deepest privacy.

Democracy, of course, is compatible with Islam because democracy is serial and polytheistic. People are free to believe whatever they like to believe and perform whatever religious rituals they wish, provided they do not infringe on other's freedoms in the public domain.

The other way round, however, it does not work.

Islam cannot allow people to do as they please , even in the privacy of their bedrooms, because God is always present, everywhere, all-hearing and all-seeing.

There is consultation in Islam: Wa shawerhum fil amr. ( And consult them in matters)

But the consultation thus recommended is about specifics only, never about the overall design of society.

In democracy there is a constitution that can be changed or at least amended.

The Koran, however, is the immutable word of God, beyond change or amendment.

This debate is not easy.

For Islam has become an issue of political controversy in the West.

On the one hand we have Islamophobia, a particular affliction of those who blame Islam for all the ills of our world.

The more thin skinned Muslims have ended up on regarding every criticism of Islam as Islamophobia.

On the other hand we have Islamoflattery that claims that everything good under the sun came from Islam. ( According to a recent PBS serial on Islam, even cinema was invented by a lens-maker in Baghdad, named Abu-Hufus!)

This is often practised by a new generation of the Turques de profession, Westerners who are prepared to apply the rules of critical analysis to everything under the sun except Islam.

They think they are doing Islam a favour.

The opposite is true.

Depriving Islam of critical scrutiny is bad for Islam and Muslims, and ultimately dangerous for the whole world.

The debate is about how to organise the global public space that is shared by the whole humanity. That space must be religion-neutral and free of ideology, which means organised on the basis of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

There are 57 nations in the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC).

Not one is yet a democracy .

The more Islamic the regime in place the less democratic it is.

Democracy is the rule of mortal common men.

Islam is the rule of immortal God.

Politics is the art of the possible and democracy a method of dealing with the problems of real life.

Islam, on the other hand, is about the unattainable ideal.

We should not allow the everything-is-equal-to-everything-else fashion of postmodernist multiculturalism and political correctness to prevent us from acknowledging differences and, yes, incompatibilities, in the name of a soggy consensus.

If we are all the same how can we have a dialogue of civilisations, unless we elevate cultural schizophrenia into an existential imperative.

Muslims should not be duped into believing that they can have their cake and eat it. Muslims can build democratic society provided they treat Islam as a matter of personal, private belief and not as a political ideology that seeks to monopolise the pubic space and regulate every aspect of individual and community life.

Ladies and gentlemen: Islam is incompatible with democracy.

I commend the motion.

Thank you

* The motion was carried by 403 votes for, 267 against and 28 undecided.

Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"

 

[uhkilleez]

To say that all of Muslims believe the way you suggest is to say that all Christians agree on predestination. It's naive, ill informed, inaccurate, and closed minded-- even though it is in the Bible. It can be interpreted in different ways.

The evidence is in your own source.

Muslims can build democratic society provided they treat Islam as a matter of personal, private belief and not as a political ideology that seeks to monopolise the pubic space and regulate every aspect of individual and community life.

So the comparison is simple, those who believe it is incompatible are those who take an extreme and literal view of the Qu'ran, just the same way in which only Christian extremists behave like the Westboro Baptist Church. Sure, people like that are out there, and it is easier for them to thrive and indoctrinate their young in a political environment that not only enables that, but encourages it.

Finally, if you honestly still think I am naive and ill informed, please explain to me the UAE. They operate under an elective monarchy, and I'll give you one good guess what their official religion is.