Corporate welfare in action ....

[Toddsterpatriot]

What would you call it then when corporations get free money?

Fantasy, unless you have an example.

It's not fantasy, idiot. It happened.

Still waiting for an example, you know so I can destroy you.

Government spends more on corporate welfare than social welfare.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent. Corporate welfare adds zero, and in some cases causes a negative.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent.

How many trillions in social welfare spending do we need to add until it balances the budget?

 

[danielpalos]

Then why didn't the people vote those politicians out of office? I'm sure most of the abatements happen in Democrat cities anyway.

Gee why do many bad politicians get reelected? Are you really claiming all bad politicians get voted out?

The will if the local news shows people that an abatement was a net loss. Politicians have no reason to give a company a break unless it benefited the city or town in some way--usually financial.

These deals are never so obvious to pick out. Look at Foxconn. It is 3 billion and they guess it won't break even for 25 years. When does the media start calling them out on that one? After 25 years? Gosh you have a lot of faith in government. Again look at the US debt. Politicians are not fiscally responsible.

Infrastructure; the public sector should be responsible for those "conduits to private sector markets". Thus, communication, energy, potable and waste water management, and even "industrial waste management" could be accommodated via the public sector much more easily than it may be for the private sector to raise the capital intensive sums needed.

Public sector control of Infrastructure means, no excuses when it comes to the common defense regarding natural disasters.

So doper, you are always whining about "income disparity," so why do you want to exempt the most wealthy corporation in the entire world from paying taxes?

We should have no income taxes?

It is about our public sectors Obligation to ensure government functions.

The public sector should work with scale economies to provide, economies of scale for the private sector to arbitrage into a profit, if they can.

Hoover Dam and our Landing on the Moon, are examples.

 

[danielpalos]

It's rather frightening to consider what the question must be:

And the answer is;


-Base Federal tax for corporations at 30% of revenue.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2017 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-offs/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees with the Feds refunding city, State, and fees.

-Companies with unlimited employees; employee expenses above the deduction are subsidized at 100% with funds usually give back to the States.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2017 price structure.

-Remove the FICA limit.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

-Make inversion illegal.

My plan would reduce business costs for employees and taxes to 30%. That's a 15%-30% drop.

My plan would put BILLIONS into the economy daily.

My plan would put the $100 trillion plus currently owned by corporate America back into the economy.

My plan would end all welfare.

My plan would significantly increase social security and pension payments.

My plan would hold prices for 10 years, thus eliminating inflation.

Only problem is it should be a five-year plan, rather than ten. Don't worry, you can have two in a row.

The question is: How do you put monies back into the economy?

Ahh... OK. I was sure the question was: How can we convert the US to a totalitarian state?

We have 47 years of wage disparity to recover from. Ten years is necessary.

So this is two (!) five-year plans, for the price of one. Bonus!

Insist on wartime tax rates to accomplish what totalitarian States can accomplish.

 

[danielpalos]

Good paying jobs? You're kidding, right?

It's already been posted on this board.

A supervisor at Amazon makes $15.65/hr which is crap pay. You have to stand for 8 hours in heat up to 90 degrees because Amazon doesn't believe in air conditioning. To qualify you need a bachelor's degree. Would anyone in their right mind pay $50K for an education for that job?

The American worker is woefully underpaid.

Amazon doesn't need subsidies. Period.

Here's a solution: stop importing cheap labor from Mexico.

A national minimum wage.

Single Payer for Everyone. For Everything.

I would love to be able to, "lease a girlfriend", at a Dollar Store.

Wouldn't your current blow up girlfriend get jealous?

Her name is Pandora, so I don't let her out of the box.

 

[danielpalos]

What would you call it then when corporations get free money?

Fantasy, unless you have an example.

It's not fantasy, idiot. It happened.

Still waiting for an example, you know so I can destroy you.

Government spends more on corporate welfare than social welfare.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent. Corporate welfare adds zero, and in some cases causes a negative.

Dear, nobody on the left should take the right wing seriously about economics.

Public sector spending engenders a positive multiplier effect on our economy.

 

[Markle]

Gee why do many bad politicians get reelected?

Simple, with Progressives it is because a criminal record, convictions, arrests are resume enhancements. They become part of the victims they profess to represent.

 

[OnePercenter]

How much in benefits does a community receive when say a Walmart locates in their area? Or, a distribution hub for Walmart, Amazon or other large corporation?

"
NORTH RANDALL, Ohio - Amazon will bring more than 2,000 jobs to the tiny Cuyahoga County village of North Randall, where a massive fulfillment center is slated to rise from the demolition dust of Randall Park Mall.

The e-commerce giant finalized a lease deal Thursday on a planned 855,000-square-foot building, which could open during the second half of next year on a 69-acre site at Warrensville Center and Emery roads. News of the potential deal broke in July, after the project cropped up on a public meeting agenda. But North Randall was vying against other, unidentified sites.

The North Randall Village Council and the Warrensville Heights Board of Education have approved 15 years of 75 percent property-tax abatement for the Amazon facility. School board records show the village will pass along 33 percent of its income-tax collections from workers at the fulfillment center to the district."

Amazon commits to North Randall fulfillment center, with 2,000-plus jobs on former mall site

"Full-time employees at Amazon receive highly-competitive pay, health insurance, disability insurance, retirement savings plans and company stock starting on day one. The company offers up to 20 weeks of paid leave and innovative benefits such as Leave Share and Ramp Back, which give new parents flexibility with their growing families. Amazon also offers hourly employees its Career Choice program which helps train employees for in-demand jobs at Amazon and other companies so they can prepare for the future and take full advantage of the nation's innovation economy. The program pre-pays 95% of tuition for courses in in-demand, high-wage fields, regardless of whether the skills are relevant to a future career at Amazon. Over 10,000 employees have participated in Career Choice and more are signing up every day."

An Amazon Fulfillment Center Officially Comes to Former Randall Park Mall Site, Needs Workers

Nah, we don't want it. That's the village picking winners......namely the citizens of their village and surrounding areas where those employees will be hired from.

Is it good for business for Amazon to build this? If so why do they need a special deal on taxes?

The amazon around here doesn't pay much and has lots of turnover btw.

There are several articles on this subject that refutes what you claim.

Is it good for business for Amazon to build this? Of course it is. Or do you think it's better for business to leave that mall in a pile of rubble?

They need a tax deal to keep their prices lower and provide good paying jobs with the best of benefits as the article outlines.

Lots of construction, lots of good paying jobs afterwards, the school system makes out, the taxpayers make out, even the state makes out. The domino effect of companies that provide Amazon with packing materials, trucking, and technology a plus.

Everybody wins, and tax abatements are responsible for it.

They need a tax deal to keep their prices lower? Really? So does Walmart get such a good deal? And if Amazon gets a better deal I guess they have lower prices? You really want the gov picking winners and losers?

If it is good for Amazon to build they don't need a special tax deal. The tax payer shouldn't pay for Amazon to expand.

If Amazon were competing with Walmart, that would be true. But it doesn't matter where Amazon builds because they are not opening a store--they're opening up a distribution center. The city makes out with property taxes and new jobs.

The taxpayer pays nothing and if anything, the taxpayer will pay less in the future.

Didn't Amazon buy Whole Foods? Brick and mortar stores (like Walmart)

Doesn't Walmart sell on-line (like Amazon)

Amazon is very much going after Walmart.

You are VERY wrong about distribution centers. EVERY Amazon distribution center is built within 20 miles of a major freight corridor. Same with every other distribution center.

 

[OnePercenter]

Fantasy, unless you have an example.

It's not fantasy, idiot. It happened.

Still waiting for an example, you know so I can destroy you.

Government spends more on corporate welfare than social welfare.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent. Corporate welfare adds zero, and in some cases causes a negative.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent.

How many trillions in social welfare spending do we need to add until it balances the budget?

Place my plan into effect and you'll have a balanced budget.

 

[dblack]

It's not fantasy, idiot. It happened.

Still waiting for an example, you know so I can destroy you.

Government spends more on corporate welfare than social welfare.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent. Corporate welfare adds zero, and in some cases causes a negative.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent.

How many trillions in social welfare spending do we need to add until it balances the budget?

Place my plan into effect and you'll have a balanced budget.

And the trains will run on time!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not fantasy, idiot. It happened.

Still waiting for an example, you know so I can destroy you.

Government spends more on corporate welfare than social welfare.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent. Corporate welfare adds zero, and in some cases causes a negative.

Social welfare adds $1.70 to the economy for every $1.00 spent.

How many trillions in social welfare spending do we need to add until it balances the budget?

Place my plan into effect and you'll have a balanced budget.

How does $10 trillion in corporate tax credits give us a balanced budget?

 

[Markle]

He said my larger apartments (which I was generally charging $500.00 a month for) would go easily for $1,200 a month, and probably over 2 grand a month if they were close to NYC.

The age old real estate cliche, LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.

 

[Markle]

How does $10 trillion in corporate tax credits give us a balanced budget?

Your source and link, please. You made no mention of the income and local taxes generated by those corporate tax incentives.

 

[Markle]

If business subsidized offers became illegal, Amazon would still build.

 

[Slyhunter]

This OP obviously doesn't know what a publically traded company is, and who owns it. Hint: Countless public and private employee pension plans own Apple, omg those evil Teachers unions are sucking up corporate welfare ALARM!!

I get that. But it's irrelevant. The question is equal protection. Should everyone be allowed to "buy" tax abatements?

Yes and Apple is free to build their place somewhere else.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

"
NORTH RANDALL, Ohio - Amazon will bring more than 2,000 jobs to the tiny Cuyahoga County village of North Randall, where a massive fulfillment center is slated to rise from the demolition dust of Randall Park Mall.

The e-commerce giant finalized a lease deal Thursday on a planned 855,000-square-foot building, which could open during the second half of next year on a 69-acre site at Warrensville Center and Emery roads. News of the potential deal broke in July, after the project cropped up on a public meeting agenda. But North Randall was vying against other, unidentified sites.

The North Randall Village Council and the Warrensville Heights Board of Education have approved 15 years of 75 percent property-tax abatement for the Amazon facility. School board records show the village will pass along 33 percent of its income-tax collections from workers at the fulfillment center to the district."

Amazon commits to North Randall fulfillment center, with 2,000-plus jobs on former mall site

"Full-time employees at Amazon receive highly-competitive pay, health insurance, disability insurance, retirement savings plans and company stock starting on day one. The company offers up to 20 weeks of paid leave and innovative benefits such as Leave Share and Ramp Back, which give new parents flexibility with their growing families. Amazon also offers hourly employees its Career Choice program which helps train employees for in-demand jobs at Amazon and other companies so they can prepare for the future and take full advantage of the nation's innovation economy. The program pre-pays 95% of tuition for courses in in-demand, high-wage fields, regardless of whether the skills are relevant to a future career at Amazon. Over 10,000 employees have participated in Career Choice and more are signing up every day."

An Amazon Fulfillment Center Officially Comes to Former Randall Park Mall Site, Needs Workers

Nah, we don't want it. That's the village picking winners......namely the citizens of their village and surrounding areas where those employees will be hired from.

Is it good for business for Amazon to build this? If so why do they need a special deal on taxes?

The amazon around here doesn't pay much and has lots of turnover btw.

There are several articles on this subject that refutes what you claim.

Is it good for business for Amazon to build this? Of course it is. Or do you think it's better for business to leave that mall in a pile of rubble?

They need a tax deal to keep their prices lower and provide good paying jobs with the best of benefits as the article outlines.

Lots of construction, lots of good paying jobs afterwards, the school system makes out, the taxpayers make out, even the state makes out. The domino effect of companies that provide Amazon with packing materials, trucking, and technology a plus.

Everybody wins, and tax abatements are responsible for it.

They need a tax deal to keep their prices lower? Really? So does Walmart get such a good deal? And if Amazon gets a better deal I guess they have lower prices? You really want the gov picking winners and losers?

If it is good for Amazon to build they don't need a special tax deal. The tax payer shouldn't pay for Amazon to expand.

If Amazon were competing with Walmart, that would be true. But it doesn't matter where Amazon builds because they are not opening a store--they're opening up a distribution center. The city makes out with property taxes and new jobs.

The taxpayer pays nothing and if anything, the taxpayer will pay less in the future.

Didn't Amazon buy Whole Foods? Brick and mortar stores (like Walmart)

Doesn't Walmart sell on-line (like Amazon)

Amazon is very much going after Walmart.

You are VERY wrong about distribution centers. EVERY Amazon distribution center is built within 20 miles of a major freight corridor. Same with every other distribution center.

So what's your point, that they made a smart business move by building near freight companies?

The nearest Walmart to this site is 15 miles away. That's besides the fact they are not opening up a store like Walmart.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

There are several articles on this subject that refutes what you claim.

Is it good for business for Amazon to build this? Of course it is. Or do you think it's better for business to leave that mall in a pile of rubble?

They need a tax deal to keep their prices lower and provide good paying jobs with the best of benefits as the article outlines.

Lots of construction, lots of good paying jobs afterwards, the school system makes out, the taxpayers make out, even the state makes out. The domino effect of companies that provide Amazon with packing materials, trucking, and technology a plus.

Everybody wins, and tax abatements are responsible for it.

You like that government is making these decisions, rather than the market?

States and local governments need to compete to attract business.
Without competition, idiot politicians could create a "sweetened beverage tax", like the assholes in Cook County, and never suffer the consequences of their stupidity and greed.

No, they don't need to compete. If companies want to grow they need to expand and build. Huge companies win, tax payers lose with these deals. Do you pretend to be conservative?

So my city collects three million dollars in taxes every year to support our city. A new business moves in and the city (with abatements) now collects 3.4 million in taxes every year. How did the taxpayer lose?

I'd love to see the cities budget reports.

I'm sure they are all available online.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Why is that not happening in Seattle?

Because Seattle already had one of the highest costs of living in the country.

Seattle is also home Boeing, Microsoft, Amazon and several other huge companies. They could not find anyone willing to work for $7.50 an hour and most are paid in excess of $15.00 without a minimum.

Take that same minimum wage to Ocala, Florida or Bellington, Washington, and the place would be devastated.

You do make an exceptional case though for NOT making any minimum wage a Federal Law. Without question, it should be left to the local municipality.

Increasing minimum wage only sets off a domino effect. You may make more money up front, but within a few years, everything else costs more money and you find yourself right back where you started from.

My father and I were discussing this the other day. He's a retired construction worker. We both watch those shows on HGTV where they buy and sell houses all the time. What you get in some of these states for a million dollars you could find here for less than 300K. A million dollar home here is nearly a mansion.

Increased wages creates a huge cost of living increase. Several years ago I rented an apartment to a kid from New York because he was going to school here. I was charging him $450.00 at the time. He told me that the apartment I rented him would cost over $1,000 in New York state. He said my larger apartments (which I was generally charging $500.00 a month for) would go easily for $1,200 a month, and probably over 2 grand a month if they were close to NYC.

You trust the government to dish out corporate welfare. You should trust them to manipulate wages. See your beliefs make no sense.

You can keep using that term Corporate Welfare all you want, but when you do, I think tax breaks--not welfare at all. And I'm all for tax breaks. The lower the taxes, the better.

Maybe this will start to help you understand Ray. A single woman with 2 kids can get a lot better deal on welfare and taxes if she has a 3rd child. But is that really the best life decision? That's what is happening with corporate welfare. Corps take the gov deals, but aren't necessarily doing what is best for business. This corporate welfare distorts the economy.

So you know more than corporate CEO's now?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

How much in benefits does a community receive when say a Walmart locates in their area? Or, a distribution hub for Walmart, Amazon or other large corporation?

"
NORTH RANDALL, Ohio - Amazon will bring more than 2,000 jobs to the tiny Cuyahoga County village of North Randall, where a massive fulfillment center is slated to rise from the demolition dust of Randall Park Mall.

The e-commerce giant finalized a lease deal Thursday on a planned 855,000-square-foot building, which could open during the second half of next year on a 69-acre site at Warrensville Center and Emery roads. News of the potential deal broke in July, after the project cropped up on a public meeting agenda. But North Randall was vying against other, unidentified sites.

The North Randall Village Council and the Warrensville Heights Board of Education have approved 15 years of 75 percent property-tax abatement for the Amazon facility. School board records show the village will pass along 33 percent of its income-tax collections from workers at the fulfillment center to the district."

Amazon commits to North Randall fulfillment center, with 2,000-plus jobs on former mall site

"Full-time employees at Amazon receive highly-competitive pay, health insurance, disability insurance, retirement savings plans and company stock starting on day one. The company offers up to 20 weeks of paid leave and innovative benefits such as Leave Share and Ramp Back, which give new parents flexibility with their growing families. Amazon also offers hourly employees its Career Choice program which helps train employees for in-demand jobs at Amazon and other companies so they can prepare for the future and take full advantage of the nation's innovation economy. The program pre-pays 95% of tuition for courses in in-demand, high-wage fields, regardless of whether the skills are relevant to a future career at Amazon. Over 10,000 employees have participated in Career Choice and more are signing up every day."

An Amazon Fulfillment Center Officially Comes to Former Randall Park Mall Site, Needs Workers

Nah, we don't want it. That's the village picking winners......namely the citizens of their village and surrounding areas where those employees will be hired from.

Is it good for business for Amazon to build this? If so why do they need a special deal on taxes?

The amazon around here doesn't pay much and has lots of turnover btw.

They don't need the special deals.

It's not a question of need, it's a question of attracting businesses. Regardless what you think a business "needs" any business will be happy to take the best competition offer they can get.

If business subsidized offers became illegal, Amazon would still build.

Sure they would, and they would choose the location most beneficial to them.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So they are growing slower than other states. That has nothing to do with any corporate welfare.

It shows it doesn't lead to greatness. 10 credit rating downgrades and a slow economy.

Because it doesn't show it leads to greatness, it must be responsible? Where in the world do you get that logic from?

Nobody ever said that tax abatements were an all out problem solver. It would be like me making the claim that if not for tax abatement, the state would be growing even slower. There's no way to possibly prove that claim.

It goes against capitalism and the free market. That is bad for an economy. You can't show it does any good. Why do you support this garbage? I've given you example after example of it doing bad things, yet you insist it is a good thing. You make no sense.

And I gave you examples where it does good. This Amazon thing that's happening here is great for our area. It's going to provide thousands of jobs, bring in tax revenue, stir up business in other places. Nothing negative about it. No new roads needed because the roads were designed for the largest mall in the country years ago. Hell, maybe even our company may get some work out of it. Who knows?

But there is nothing negative about it.

Amazon will be using services they are not paying for. That is welfare. And no you haven't given any real examples. The numbers never work out. You live in fantasy land. A good deal would be amazon moves in, creates jobs, and pays taxes for services.

How is a company that's going to add millions of dollars to a cities budge not paying for services? And what services would those be anyway?

 

[Brain357]

Because Seattle already had one of the highest costs of living in the country.

Seattle is also home Boeing, Microsoft, Amazon and several other huge companies. They could not find anyone willing to work for $7.50 an hour and most are paid in excess of $15.00 without a minimum.

Take that same minimum wage to Ocala, Florida or Bellington, Washington, and the place would be devastated.

You do make an exceptional case though for NOT making any minimum wage a Federal Law. Without question, it should be left to the local municipality.

Increasing minimum wage only sets off a domino effect. You may make more money up front, but within a few years, everything else costs more money and you find yourself right back where you started from.

My father and I were discussing this the other day. He's a retired construction worker. We both watch those shows on HGTV where they buy and sell houses all the time. What you get in some of these states for a million dollars you could find here for less than 300K. A million dollar home here is nearly a mansion.

Increased wages creates a huge cost of living increase. Several years ago I rented an apartment to a kid from New York because he was going to school here. I was charging him $450.00 at the time. He told me that the apartment I rented him would cost over $1,000 in New York state. He said my larger apartments (which I was generally charging $500.00 a month for) would go easily for $1,200 a month, and probably over 2 grand a month if they were close to NYC.

You trust the government to dish out corporate welfare. You should trust them to manipulate wages. See your beliefs make no sense.

You can keep using that term Corporate Welfare all you want, but when you do, I think tax breaks--not welfare at all. And I'm all for tax breaks. The lower the taxes, the better.

Maybe this will start to help you understand Ray. A single woman with 2 kids can get a lot better deal on welfare and taxes if she has a 3rd child. But is that really the best life decision? That's what is happening with corporate welfare. Corps take the gov deals, but aren't necessarily doing what is best for business. This corporate welfare distorts the economy.

So you know more than corporate CEO's now?

Well I certainly know that capitalism and the free market are better than corporate welfare. CEOs certainly fail rather regularly. Sears? Circuit City? Blockbuster? Borders? Again they may be doing what they think is right, but the government is distorting the economy.