CDZ Could using Islam as a political philosophy make trumps ban constitutional?

[ogibillm]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

It isn't two separate things. Islam is a religion and a political system.
See, I am giving the premise to constitutionally ban islam. Stop skirting around the OP!

you aren't though. you want to say it's a political system so that allows you to ban it - but it's still a religion.
it could be a religion and a guide to this fall's hottest fashions and you couldn't ban it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yep, shari'a is a political system, and, yes, you can demand that any immigrant to America say they won't follow it in America.

 

[TNHarley]

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

again, so does judaism.

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

I told you I backed off of the OT.

In other words you're cherrypicking?

cherry picking what? He provided quotes to get me to agree with him about the OT. And you. What is the problem?

 

[ogibillm]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

it isn't though. it's not required by islam.

 

[Pogo]

again, so does judaism.

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

I told you I backed off of the OT.

In other words you're cherrypicking?

cherry picking what? He provided quotes to get me to agree with him about the OT. And you. What is the problem?

The problem appears to be the same as it was when this thread started -- Double Standard.

If you "back off" the OT, you have to "back off" the Qur'an as well. Or, if you indict one you have to indict the other. Can't have it both ways.

Simple as that.

 

[Pogo]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit (or a tuxedo to a wedding for example) because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

 

[ogibillm]

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

I told you I backed off of the OT.

In other words you're cherrypicking?

cherry picking what? He provided quotes to get me to agree with him about the OT. And you. What is the problem?

The problem appears to be the same as it was when this thread started -- Double Standard.

If you "back off" the OT, you have to "back off" the Qur'an as well. Or, if you indict one you have to indict the other. Can't have it both ways.

Simple as that.

by 'back off' he meant that he was backing off his claim that it wasn't the same. he's recognizing that judaism is just as much a political system as islam, but he's saying that we should be able to ban both.

 

[TNHarley]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

It isn't two separate things. Islam is a religion and a political system.
See, I am giving the premise to constitutionally ban islam. Stop skirting around the OP!

you aren't though. you want to say it's a political system so that allows you to ban it - but it's still a religion.
it could be a religion and a guide to this fall's hottest fashions and you couldn't ban it.

Since we both agree that Islams goal is a worldwide Islamic state, wouldn't that make it an established religion, technically?

 

[ogibillm]

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

It isn't two separate things. Islam is a religion and a political system.
See, I am giving the premise to constitutionally ban islam. Stop skirting around the OP!

you aren't though. you want to say it's a political system so that allows you to ban it - but it's still a religion.
it could be a religion and a guide to this fall's hottest fashions and you couldn't ban it.

Since we both agree that Islams goal is a worldwide Islamic state, wouldn't that make it an established religion, technically?

i'm not sure that we both agree on that at all anymore than i'd say that christianity wants a worldwide christian state.

what do you mean by 'established religion'?

 

[TNHarley]

​

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

It doesn't make a damn what YOU say Pogo. They put it in their religious teachings. They ADOPTED it into their religion. IDC if historically it had no religious ties. They made it that way.

 

[JakeStarkey]

​

acts 5:29
according to whom? so does judaism and christianity i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

It doesn't make a damn what YOU say Pogo. They put it in their religious teachings. They ADOPTED it into their religion. IDC if historically it had no religious ties. They made it that way.

You would have to change the Constitution or Declare War.

 

[sealybobo]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc
Could that be used to make Trumps ban constitutional? I know people argue the first and it limits the government. Which, I agree with(thanks Jarhead). So what about this?

Great point! Would we let a bunch of commies come in?

 

[Pogo]

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

I told you I backed off of the OT.

In other words you're cherrypicking?

cherry picking what? He provided quotes to get me to agree with him about the OT. And you. What is the problem?

The problem appears to be the same as it was when this thread started -- Double Standard.

If you "back off" the OT, you have to "back off" the Qur'an as well. Or, if you indict one you have to indict the other. Can't have it both ways.

Simple as that.

by 'back off' he meant that he was backing off his claim that it wasn't the same. he's recognizing that judaism is just as much a political system as islam, but he's saying that we should be able to ban both.

Ah. So he wants to ban ALL organized religions? That wasn't clear in the title.

John Lennon imagined that too. If only....
In a perfect world, lovely. In practical terms I can't see it going well.

 

[ogibillm]

​

acts 5:29
according to whom? so does judaism and christianity i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

It doesn't make a damn what YOU say Pogo. They put it in their religious teachings. They ADOPTED it into their religion. IDC if historically it had no religious ties. They made it that way.

again, it's not required in islam, and most muslims don't practice fgm.

 

[TNHarley]

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

It isn't two separate things. Islam is a religion and a political system.
See, I am giving the premise to constitutionally ban islam. Stop skirting around the OP!

you aren't though. you want to say it's a political system so that allows you to ban it - but it's still a religion.
it could be a religion and a guide to this fall's hottest fashions and you couldn't ban it.

Since we both agree that Islams goal is a worldwide Islamic state, wouldn't that make it an established religion, technically?

i'm not sure that we both agree on that at all anymore than i'd say that christianity wants a worldwide christian state.

what do you mean by 'established religion'?

I posted my links and you basically conceded. Shall I post them again, or will you be intellectually honest?
BTW we are talking about islam.
Established religion, as in banned in the first amendment. as in : by accepting that religion, it would, in itself, be an established religion considering Islams goal as a worldwide caliphate.

 

[TNHarley]

​

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

It doesn't make a damn what YOU say Pogo. They put it in their religious teachings. They ADOPTED it into their religion. IDC if historically it had no religious ties. They made it that way.

You would have to change the Constitution or Declare War.

declare war for what? Islam cutting off clitoris? lol

 

[TNHarley]

​

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

It doesn't make a damn what YOU say Pogo. They put it in their religious teachings. They ADOPTED it into their religion. IDC if historically it had no religious ties. They made it that way.

again, it's not required in islam, and most muslims don't practice fgm.

That's fine. We were discussing it being a religious ritual. Which it is. Regardless if it happened pre-islam or not.

 

[ogibillm]

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

It isn't two separate things. Islam is a religion and a political system.
See, I am giving the premise to constitutionally ban islam. Stop skirting around the OP!

you aren't though. you want to say it's a political system so that allows you to ban it - but it's still a religion.
it could be a religion and a guide to this fall's hottest fashions and you couldn't ban it.

Since we both agree that Islams goal is a worldwide Islamic state, wouldn't that make it an established religion, technically?

i'm not sure that we both agree on that at all anymore than i'd say that christianity wants a worldwide christian state.

what do you mean by 'established religion'?

I posted my links and you basically conceded. Shall I post them again, or will you be intellectually honest?
BTW we are talking about islam.
Established religion, as in banned in the first amendment. as in : by accepting that religion, it would, in itself, be an established religion considering Islams goal as a worldwide caliphate.

i don't recall any links, or conceding anything on that point.

the first amendment bans congress from establishing a religion. if i start a cult that says that not only are we the going to rule the world, we already do, we still can't be banned.

 

[TNHarley]

male circumcision is obligatory. JS

 

[Pogo]

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

That is completely and irrevocably illogical.

FGM has no religious function -- in any religion. It never did. Like "honor killing" its function is social structure/social status.

e.g. -- you don't wear a nice fancy suit because your religion demands it -- you wear it to exhibit a certain social status. It has no relevance to your spiritual leader or congregation -- it has relevance only to your community and peers.

Same thing.

It doesn't make a damn what YOU say Pogo. They put it in their religious teachings. They ADOPTED it into their religion. IDC if historically it had no religious ties. They made it that way.

again, it's not required in islam, and most muslims don't practice fgm.

That's fine. We were discussing it being a religious ritual. Which it is. Regardless if it happened pre-islam or not.

No, it is not. Never has been, never will be.

You seem to be running on the idea that, if some concept is merely mentioned in some ancient scripture, even if just to acknowledge a then-current practice, it somehow becomes a precept.

Again, FGM has no religious function. It makes no difference to the religious status of the victim. Its only significance is to her social status.