Creationists

[Montrovant]

That's understandable. You should know what you believe...

William B. Provine

Will Provine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Watch for 3 minutes...

Darwinism: Science or Naturalistic Philosophy (5 of 11) - YouTube

So this particular man thinks that there is no free will, therefor it is a tenet of evolutionary theory? I'm sorry, but that's a stretch. Even in the video, it says that the lack of free will is his personal conclusion. What we have here is someone taking evolutionary theory and concluding, based on it, that certain things not covered by the theory are true. He doesn't even give a good explanation for how it flows from evolutionary theory that free will doesn't exist.

This guy is a well respected Materialist High Priest. He is widely known for dissing ID Theorists. He is a evolutionary biology historian professor at Cornell. The credentials don't get much better than these. The real truth is, the same thing you bag on Christians for, i.e., not knowing their doctrine, is rampant in your religion. You Materialists don't know what you believe!!! Please man, learn your doctrines!!

Perhaps you aren't grasping this. His belief that free will doesn't exist is NOT part of evolutionary theory. According to this video, at least, it is a conclusion he draws based on evolutionary theory. He also concludes there is no god and there is no afterlife, are you claiming those, too, are part of evolutionary theory?

Are the personal beliefs of every scientist considered part of the branch of science they study? Are the personal beliefs of every biblical scholar part of the bible? You are mixing the man's personal views with a scientific theory even though he never claimed those views are part of the theory.

Also, I'd love to see your examples of me 'bagging on Christians' for not knowing their doctrine. Further, evolution is not my religion.

Get back to me when you have a relevant, non-straw man post.

 

[newpolitics]

How the hell does someone seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?

Meh. It baffles me.

My belief:

We are belief-run creatures. It is simply a matter of what information reaches a developing brain first: fact or fiction. Once beliefs are set in stone at an early age, they are very difficult to remove, and no amount of logic or actual real-world empirical truth can budge them, because they become a part of the identity structure, and once that happens, its all over. This is especially true with religious beliefs, because they inform identity and perform a social purpose (church). With so many important functions being serviced by such identity and core-beliefs, they become impossible to remove unless through something traumatic. It is tragic that we are so susceptible to our own minds, and capable of being so oblivious to the world around, but such is the way it was throughout our evolution. There was no incentive to be scientific, because there was no science yet until only recently. The only incentive we had was to learn to get along with eachother in our hunter-gather group, in other words: to cooperate. This was the ultimate end, and so beliefs that facilitate this are rewarded. This includes the unifying function of spiritual beliefs, which brought people together on a deep level, easily, regardless of whether those beliefs corresponded with the physical reality and history of the universe. So, this is where we are today. Run by false beliefs, and defending them to the death. Beliefs and our affinity for them cause all of the problems we have as humans. If we were simply more humble, and not so convinced of our own righteousness in terms of religion and politics, we could all get along a lot better.

I think that within the mind of a person holding young earth creation beliefs, they think that following a literal interpretation of the bible will score them points with Jesus, basically. It is a test of faith to not question anything, or take a less literal interpretation of the book. They think therefore, that they will be 'preferred' over other Christians who do not hold such a literal view.

 

[LOki]

Under the TOE, there is no such thing as free will. This is a really great way not to accept any personal responsibility for your actions. No choice. No God. No accountability. So we went from "the devil made me do it" to "my genes made me to it". Here we see how we can get so far off track ethically with materialistic religion. Should we be appalled at the man who abducts other men, sodomizes them, and then hacks them into little pieces and puts them in his freezer? Heck no under the TOE. HE did not have free will. He was just a "product of his environment" (NS).

You see I just can't help it.... but hey... "I'm on the right track baby, I was born this way."

100% made-up-nonsense.

Why don't you post an intellectually honest rebuttal? Or do you only know how to spew words without a point?

Like I said before, your boy Provine said it, not me. So if I am citing an actual materialistic high priest, I supposet that is a strawman too. pffff. Whatever.

There was nothing intellectually dishonest about my rebuttal.

However ...

I did not respond to what Provine said. I clearly responded to what you said. You made NO citation of Povine in the post I responded to, nor any post prior.

Nor have you disavowed your post since (except, perhaps now). So Jackass, you indeed said all that you clearly said, and it is still 100% made-up-nonsense ... including your notions of material high priesthood.

 

[Youwerecreated]

In other words, you don't have an answer. And that explains why people like me don't believe in your God -- because neither you, nor any other Christian can explain why your God says one thing, but does completely opposite.

Your God wants people to become Christians, but then he makes sure that Christianity look like a fairy tale. Why?

The only ones that try to make it look like a fairytale is some who can't bring themselves to believe in a higher power and miracles are a problem for them as well.

Besides it is by faith and belief that we are saved.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."



Mat 14:28 And Peter answered Him and said, LORD, if it is You, tell me to come to You on the water.
Mat 14:29 And He said, Come. And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.
Mat 14:30 But seeing that the wind was strong, he was afraid. And beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me!
Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him; and said to him, Little-faith! Why did you doubt?

Mat 17:14 And when they came to the crowd, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,
Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and grievously vexed; for oftentimes he falls into the fire, and often into the water.
Mat 17:16 And I brought him to Your disciples, and they could not cure him.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? Bring him here to Me.
Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and he departed out of him. And the child was cured from that very hour.
Mat 17:19 Then the disciples came to Jesus apart, and said, Why could we not cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief. For truly I say to you, If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Move from here to there. And it shall move. And nothing shall be impossible to you.

In other words, you don't have an answer. SO STFU!

How old are you ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

OK, I will make it simple for you. Most people live with the eyes wide open -- otherwise they will be stumbling over every rock and bumping into every light post. They look into the Universe, but they don't see God in it because he either do not exists, or because He is hiding!

Why can't he just come to Manhattan, part the waters in the Upper Bay to garb the people attention and tell them what is going on? He had no problems doing that thousands years ago, so why not now?

Rerally,not according to God.

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.

The god of this world is satan.

Again, if my mind is blinded by satan, then how can it be MY sin? I am the victim here, not the perpetrator!

And the question remains -- how come the real God, omnipotent no less, allows satan to blind me? Having free will would have no difference if I can't make the right choice because I was blinded by satan! CICO, as any good designer would say. And God is supposed to be a good designer, isn't it?

Because people allow themselves to be blinded. Just like they allow themselves to be possessed and or lead down the wrong road. You are involved in a vital issue whether you like hearing it or not.

 

[Youwerecreated]

There is one thing you need to understand about science -- it does not provide absolute proof of anything. It is all "speculations", although the right word is "theory".

So please, stop faulting TOE for being a theory.

Then please stop presenting it as the FACT of evolution. I think we could "all just get along" if this happened. Instead, materialists regularly state speculation as fact.

We are not presenting it as a fact. We just say there is 0.00000.....000001 chance of it not being true, end even less chance of Christianity being something more than a myth.

A proposition that the display, which you are reading this words from actually exists is a theory. And a proposition that the Earth is flat is also a theory. But the former is infinitely more useful than the latter. Same is true about TOE and science vs any religion.

If your presuppositions are wrong,you are wrong.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Here we see how we can get so far off track ethically with materialistic religion.

1. Stop calling materialistic view a religion -- that is a bull. Having no faith means you are not following any religion.
2. You can get off track ethically with Christianity as well, and much easier than with atheistic view (how many people commit atrocities believing they are serving God?)

And recognizing that an environment or a mental illness can lead people to making bad choices in not unethical. Even most Christians now get it.

Oh but you are because much of the evidence you believe in is speculation and to hold on to the views takes faith.

 

[Youwerecreated]

How the hell does someone seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?

Meh. It baffles me.

My belief:

We are belief-run creatures. It is simply a matter of what information reaches a developing brain first: fact or fiction. Once beliefs are set in stone at an early age, they are very difficult to remove, and no amount of logic or actual real-world empirical truth can budge them, because they become a part of the identity structure, and once that happens, its all over. This is especially true with religious beliefs, because they inform identity and perform a social purpose (church). With so many important functions being serviced by such identity and core-beliefs, they become impossible to remove unless through something traumatic. It is tragic that we are so susceptible to our own minds, and capable of being so oblivious to the world around, but such is the way it was throughout our evolution. There was no incentive to be scientific, because there was no science yet until only recently. The only incentive we had was to learn to get along with eachother in our hunter-gather group, in other words: to cooperate. This was the ultimate end, and so beliefs that facilitate this are rewarded. This includes the unifying function of spiritual beliefs, which brought people together on a deep level, easily, regardless of whether those beliefs corresponded with the physical reality and history of the universe. So, this is where we are today. Run by false beliefs, and defending them to the death. Beliefs and our affinity for them cause all of the problems we have as humans. If we were simply more humble, and not so convinced of our own righteousness in terms of religion and politics, we could all get along a lot better.

I think that within the mind of a person holding young earth creation beliefs, they think that following a literal interpretation of the bible will score them points with Jesus, basically. It is a test of faith to not question anything, or take a less literal interpretation of the book. They think therefore, that they will be 'preferred' over other Christians who do not hold such a literal view.

No difference from the Ideologues of macro-evolution.

 

[Youwerecreated]

100% made-up-nonsense.

Why don't you post an intellectually honest rebuttal? Or do you only know how to spew words without a point?

Like I said before, your boy Provine said it, not me. So if I am citing an actual materialistic high priest, I supposet that is a strawman too. pffff. Whatever.

There was nothing intellectually dishonest about my rebuttal.

However ...

I did not respond to what Provine said. I clearly responded to what you said. You made NO citation of Povine in the post I responded to, nor any post prior.

Nor have you disavowed your post since (except, perhaps now). So Jackass, you indeed said all that you clearly said, and it is still 100% made-up-nonsense ... including your notions of material high priesthood.

You are delusional if you don't think that the science community is not affected greatly by the likes of Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald. These are your high priests of your religion.

 

[Montrovant]

Why don't you post an intellectually honest rebuttal? Or do you only know how to spew words without a point?

Like I said before, your boy Provine said it, not me. So if I am citing an actual materialistic high priest, I supposet that is a strawman too. pffff. Whatever.

There was nothing intellectually dishonest about my rebuttal.

However ...

I did not respond to what Provine said. I clearly responded to what you said. You made NO citation of Povine in the post I responded to, nor any post prior.

Nor have you disavowed your post since (except, perhaps now). So Jackass, you indeed said all that you clearly said, and it is still 100% made-up-nonsense ... including your notions of material high priesthood.

You are delusional if you don't think that the science community is not affected greatly by the likes of Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald. These are your high priests of your religion.

So, are you now expanding things to say that not only is evolution a religion, all of science is religion? That the seeming implication of this post.

 

[ilia25]

Because people allow themselves to be blinded. Just like they allow themselves to be possessed and or lead down the wrong road.

How exactly people allow themselves to be blinded? By giving an explicit permission to satan? Or just by watching Discovery channel?

 

[ilia25]

So, are you now expanding things to say that not only is evolution a religion, all of science is religion? That the seeming implication of this post.

That is their favorite trick -- though they mostly use it on themselves. You know, if science is just another religion, then it is a matter of personal preference what to believe.

Of course it is impossible to explain what the scientific method is about to the likes of youwerecreated. They just say "thanks, I have a degree" and the next thing they are repeating the same "science is religion" bull.

 

[daws101]

Prove there was no free oxygen when life began. You are relying on speculation not fact.

There is one thing you need to understand about science -- it does not provide absolute proof of anything. It is all "speculations", although the right word is "theory".

So please, stop faulting TOE for being a theory.

Then please stop presenting it as the FACT of evolution. I think we could "all just get along" if this happened. Instead, materialists regularly state speculation as fact.

the toe is fact, it exists, just has your belief in an invisible sky god exists..
the difference being that there is evidence for the TOE and none for the sky god, except for the belief in said sky god.
it's is also fact that belief proves nothing but belief .
it's no evidence of the thing believed in

 

[ilia25]

How the hell does someone seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?

Meh. It baffles me.

My belief:

We are belief-run creatures. It is simply a matter of what information reaches a developing brain first: fact or fiction.

If it were that simple there would be no atheists out there Many people with religious upbringing eventually become atheists once they get to know this world. Unfortunately, it works both ways -- many people that were raised atheists become religious.

I think people become atheists simply because they are better at building a consistent model of the world around them.

 

[daws101]

How the hell does someone seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?

Meh. It baffles me.

My belief:

We are belief-run creatures. It is simply a matter of what information reaches a developing brain first: fact or fiction.

If it were that simple there would be no atheists out there Many people with religious upbringing eventually become atheists once they get to know this world. Unfortunately, it works both ways -- many people that were raised atheists become religious.

I think people become atheists simply because they are better at building a consistent model of the world around them.

you're going straight to hell! blasphemer!

 

[LOki]

Why don't you post an intellectually honest rebuttal? Or do you only know how to spew words without a point?

Like I said before, your boy Provine said it, not me. So if I am citing an actual materialistic high priest, I supposet that is a strawman too. pffff. Whatever.

There was nothing intellectually dishonest about my rebuttal.

However ...

I did not respond to what Provine said. I clearly responded to what you said. You made NO citation of Povine in the post I responded to, nor any post prior.

Nor have you disavowed your post since (except, perhaps now). So Jackass, you indeed said all that you clearly said, and it is still 100% made-up-nonsense ... including your notions of material high priesthood.

You are delusional if you don't think that the science community is not affected greatly by the likes of Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald.

So what if Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald have a great effect upon "the science community"?

These are your high priests of your religion.

It's disingenuous to assert that science is a religion with high priests. It is nothing but a lame attempt to assert that science has no greater relevance to reality than superstition.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There was nothing intellectually dishonest about my rebuttal.

However ...

I did not respond to what Provine said. I clearly responded to what you said. You made NO citation of Povine in the post I responded to, nor any post prior.

Nor have you disavowed your post since (except, perhaps now). So Jackass, you indeed said all that you clearly said, and it is still 100% made-up-nonsense ... including your notions of material high priesthood.

You are delusional if you don't think that the science community is not affected greatly by the likes of Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald.

So what if Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald have a great effect upon "the science community"?

These are your high priests of your religion.

It's disingenuous to assert that science is a religion with high priests. It is nothing but a lame attempt to assert that science has no greater relevance to reality than superstition.

Science is only as relevent as it's next discovery.
Oh look! Strings........

 

[LOki]

You are delusional if you don't think that the science community is not affected greatly by the likes of Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald.

So what if Provine, Dawkins and Douglas Theobald have a great effect upon "the science community"?

These are your high priests of your religion.

It's disingenuous to assert that science is a religion with high priests. It is nothing but a lame attempt to assert that science has no greater relevance to reality than superstition.

Science is only as relevent as it's next discovery.
Oh look! Strings........

Modern medicine = irrelevant. Please demonstrate.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Modern medicine= chemotherapy
Tomorrow's medicine= cancer vacine

 

[LOki]

Modern medicine= chemotherapy
Tomorrow's medicine= cancer vacine

Looks like tomorrows science is irrelevant today, and yesterday's science is still relevant.