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Oh if I said that I made a mistake. Because I made the point yesterday that variations in a family was due to inter and cross-breeding not mutations.

What they do say is every family of organisms evolved from another family of organisms throught mutations and that still presents a problem because of all the different faily of organisms.

How Many Species? A Study Says 8.7 Million, but It’s Tricky

By CARL ZIMMER

Published: August 23, 2011



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In the foothills of the Andes Mountains lives a bat the size of a raspberry. In Singapore, there’s a nematode worm that dwells only in the lungs of the changeable lizard.



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The bat and the worm have something in common: They are both new to science. Each of them recently received its official scientific name: Myotis diminutus for the bat, Rhabdias singaporensis for the worm.

These are certainly not the last two species that scientists will ever discover. Each year, researchers report more than 15,000 new species, and their workload shows no sign of letting up. “Ask any taxonomist in a museum, and they’ll tell you they have hundreds of species waiting to be described,” says Camilo Mora, a marine ecologist at the University of Hawaii.

Scientists have named and cataloged 1.3 million species. How many more species there are left to discover is a question that has hovered like a cloud over the heads of taxonomists for two centuries.

“It’s astounding that we don’t know the most basic thing about life,” said Boris Worm, a marine biologist at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia.

On Tuesday, Dr. Worm, Dr. Mora and their colleagues presented the latest estimate of how many species there are, based on a new method they have developed. They estimate there are 8.7 million species on the planet, plus or minus 1.3 million.

The new paper, published in the journal PLoS Biology, is drawing strong reactions from other experts. “In my opinion this is a very important paper,” said Angela Brandt, a marine biologist at the University of Hamburg in Germany. But critics say that the method in the new paper can’t work, and that Earth’s true diversity is far greater.

In 1833, a British entomologist named John Obadiah Westwood made the earliest known estimate of global biodiversity by guessing how many insect species there are. He estimated how many species of insects lived on each plant species in England, and then extrapolated that figure across the whole planet. “If we say 400,000, we shall, perhaps, not be very wide of the truth,” he wrote.

Today, scientists know the Westwood figure is far too low. They’ve already found more than a million insect species, and their discovery rate shows no signs of slowing down.

In recent decades, scientists have looked for better ways to determine how many species are left to find. In 1988, Robert May, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Oxford, observed that the diversity of land animals increases as they get smaller. He reasoned that we probably have found most of the species of big animals, like mammals and birds, so he used their diversity to calculate the diversity of smaller animals. He ended up with an estimate 10 to 50 million species of land animals.

Other estimates have ranged from as few as 3 million to as many as 100 million. Dr. Mora and his colleagues believed that all of these estimates were flawed in one way or another. Most seriously, there was no way to validate the methods used, to be sure they were reliable.

For the new estimate, the scientists came up with a method of their own, based on how taxonomists classify species. Each species belongs to a larger group called a genus, which belongs to a larger group called a family, and so on. We humans, for example, belong to the class of mammals, along with about 5,500 other species.

In 2002, researchers at the University of Rome published a paper in which they used these higher groups to estimate the diversity of plants around Italy. At three different sites, they noted the number of genera, families and so on. There were fewer higher-level groups than lower ones at each site, like the layers of a pyramid. The scientists could estimate how many species there were at each site, much as it’s possible to estimate how big the bottom layer of a pyramid based on the rest of it.

The paper drew little notice at the time, but Dr. Mora and his colleagues seized on it, hoping to use the method to estimate all the species on Earth. They charted the discovery of new classes of animals since 1750. The total number climbed steeply for the first 150 years and then began to crest — a sign that we’re getting close to finding all the classes of animal. They found that the discovery rate of other high-level groups has also been slowing down. The scientists built a taxonomic pyramid to estimate the total number of species in well-studied groups, like mammals and birds. They consistently made good predictions.

Confident in their method, the scientists then used it on all major groups of species, coming up with estimates of 7.7 million species of animals, for example, and 298,000 species of plants. Although the land makes up 29 percent of the Earth’s surface, the scientists concluded that it is home to 86 percent of the world’s species.

“I think it is an interesting and imaginative new approach to the important question of how many species actually are alive on earth today,” said Lord May.

But Terry Erwin, an entomologist at the Smithsonian Institution, think there’s a big flaw in the study. There’s no reason to assume that the diversity in little-studied groups will follow the rules of well-studied ones. “They’re measuring human activity, not biodiversity,” he said.

David Pollock, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Colorado who studies fungi — a particularly understudied group — agrees. “This appears to be an incredibly ill-founded approach,” he said. There are 43,271 cataloged species of fungi, based on which Dr. Mora and his colleagues estimate there are 660,000 species of fungi on Earth. But other studies on fungus diversity suggest the number may be as high as 5.1 million species.

The authors of the new study acknowledge that their method doesn’t work well with bacteria. Scientists have only started to really dig into the biodiversity of microbes, and so they are finding high-level groups of bacteria at a brisk pace. Dr. Mora and his colleagues write that their estimate — about 10,000 species — should be considered a “lower bound.”

Microbiologists, on the other hand, are fairly sure the diversity of microbes will turn out to dwarf the diversity of animals. A single spoonful of soil may contain 10,000 different species of bacteria, many of which are new to science.

Jonathan Eisen, an expert on microbial diversity at the University of California, Davis, said he found the new paper disappointing.

“This is akin to saying, ‘Dinosaurs roamed the Earth more than 500 years ago,’ ” he said. “While true, what is the point of saying it?”


It's evolutionist problem they are the ones making the claims knowing that beneficial mutations through natural selection is how over eons of time macroevolution took place. Knowing how rare beneficial mutations really are that is problem they need to overcome.

My prediction eventually as more evidence comes to light they will abandon the theory of Neo Darwinism.

Your article never once mentions mutation, and I have no idea why you posted it. Scientists have different estimations about how many species there are? So what?

Every other article and link you've provided says beneficial mutations happen, I'm glad they agree with me and I'm not sure why you'd post articles and links that state the exact opposite of what you're trying to convince us.

The point is there are too many family of organisms to evolve over time through beneficial mutations,Because they are so rare.

Mutations are common, beneficial is a misnomer. How many times do you think you have to hear something before it sinks in?
 
Did you not read anything drock posted so I am gonna repeat what he posted. And what I have learned over the years ?

Good. Like I said, I'm not interested in having you re-post walls of text that you don't even understand. I want this in your own words.

How bout you explain it ,it's your theory and provide evidence to prove it.

Wrong. It was you, not I, who claimed that it was mathematically impossible for evolution to have produced the results we see. As that is your assertion, not mine, it is your burden of proof, not mine.

I used the percentage difference in the Dna of a chimp and human to show the impossibility.

Which is 150,000,000 base pairs of Dna.

Look in the old threads ask drock or someone I am not gonna put it all out again.

It took a little time to work it out.

And when did you calculate in the chromosome translocation event that separates us from all other primates ?
 
BULLSHIT there is not. the only evidence is for your belief is belief. you have no empirical quantifiable evidence to prove that the thing or action (intelligent design) believed in exists or happened .
belief only proves belief nothing more.

Everything created or invented came into existence by intelligence.

Can you think of any language that came in to existence absent of a mind ? The DNA code is a language did that come into existence by intelligence ?

Can non-intelligence create intelligence ?

Would a natural process be able to think of everything that is needed for life then think of mechanisms to preserve that life ?

How bout this planet that is setup to sustain life is that just a coincedence ?
first you have to prove what intelligence is did it come about due to naturally occurring conditions and billions of years of evolution? inventions are man made and after the fact, they are a byproduct of human existence.
science has shown that everything is caused by chemical reactions.
can you prove that intelligence is anything more than that?
don't forget: Probability is ordinarily used to describe an attitude of mind towards some proposition of whose truth we are not certain.[1] The proposition of interest is usually of the form "Will a specific event occur?" The attitude of mind is of the form "How certain are we that the event will occur?" The certainty we adopt can be described in terms of a numerical measure and this number, between 0 and 1, we call probability.[2] The higher the probability of an event, the more certain we are that the event will occur. Thus, probability in an applied sense is a measure of the likeliness that a (random) event will occur.

The concept has been given an axiomatic mathematical derivation in probability theory, which is used widely in such areas of study as mathematics, statistics, finance, gambling, science, artificial intelligence/machine learning and philosophy to, for example, draw inferences about the likeliness of events. Probability is used to describe the underlying mechanics and regularities of complex systems.

your insistence that an intelligent force is behind existence is based on faith, nothing more.
IMO that faith is a way of filling in the unknown.

:lame2:
 
The preferred theory now is Neo,that is positive mutation+natural selection+large spans of time equal macro-evolution.

Don't know what you mean by "Neo" (watching The Matrix too many times?) but this is more or less accurate: mutation plus natural selection.

However, you demonstrated above that you do NOT know what "mutation" means, and you have demonstrated with other posts that you also don't know what "natural selection" means, so the fact that you can spout those words correctly doesn't mean you understand the theory.
 
So who and what do you say we can compare DNA to do what I did with the chimp and human ?

You are still saying nothing here in support of your contention that it is mathematically impossible (I'll even do you the kindness of translating that into "extremely unlikely" -- nothing with a statistical probability above zero is literally impossible).

As to what you can compare humans to, obviously the answer is our actual ancestors on the hominid line. But you need to know, going in, the probability that a species comparable to ours (not just ours specifically) could result from such species over time. You actually have a lot of work to do here in order to bolster your case. I don't see you even beginning to do that work. Instead, I see you looking for an easy out, an excuse to reject evolution on any pretext.

,Which is, of course, SOP for creationists.

Mutations are essential to the evolution theory, but mutations can only eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features.

We will play your game if you can point to one mutation producing new features after all that is what your theory needs.

Paralogs ...
 
:lol:
Everything created or invented came into existence by intelligence.

Can you think of any language that came in to existence absent of a mind ? The DNA code is a language did that come into existence by intelligence ?

Can non-intelligence create intelligence ?

Would a natural process be able to think of everything that is needed for life then think of mechanisms to preserve that life ?

How bout this planet that is setup to sustain life is that just a coincedence ?
first you have to prove what intelligence is did it come about due to naturally occurring conditions and billions of years of evolution? inventions are man made and after the fact, they are a byproduct of human existence.
science has shown that everything is caused by chemical reactions.
can you prove that intelligence is anything more than that?
don't forget: Probability is ordinarily used to describe an attitude of mind towards some proposition of whose truth we are not certain.[1] The proposition of interest is usually of the form "Will a specific event occur?" The attitude of mind is of the form "How certain are we that the event will occur?" The certainty we adopt can be described in terms of a numerical measure and this number, between 0 and 1, we call probability.[2] The higher the probability of an event, the more certain we are that the event will occur. Thus, probability in an applied sense is a measure of the likeliness that a (random) event will occur.

The concept has been given an axiomatic mathematical derivation in probability theory, which is used widely in such areas of study as mathematics, statistics, finance, gambling, science, artificial intelligence/machine learning and philosophy to, for example, draw inferences about the likeliness of events. Probability is used to describe the underlying mechanics and regularities of complex systems.

your insistence that an intelligent force is behind existence is based on faith, nothing more.
IMO that faith is a way of filling in the unknown.

:lame2:
:lol::lol::lol:shut u up!
 
I already have,living organisms produce living organisms can this be proven or not ?

For what it's worth (and it ain't worth much), the answer is yes. Unless, of course, you insert an "only" before the first "living" in that sentence.

Are purebred animals the result of a loss of genetic information ,yes or no ?

When we breed animals do we breed information out or new information in ?

No, and neither. The amount of information in the genetic code of a purebred animal is exactly the same as in that of a mixed-breed, neither more nor less.

Now, here's one for you. When plant or animal stock is bred for certain desired characteristics, this bears a resemblance to what mechanism described in the theory of evolution?

Dammit that is not correct. Pure breeds have less variation and you are trying to breed the variation out. When thinking about all the polymorphisms possible in a mixed breed dog, you could say that there is more information because mixed breeds will have more heterozygous locus whereas pure breeds will be homozygous for most alleles and it could be construed as less information.

Really,what separates you and i are what mutations do and you believe it happens over large spans of time.
 
The only losers are the ones on here pretending their brand of idiocy is any more scientific than that of the Christians they so obviously hate.
All right Cupcake; same deal, bring your best game--only you don't get dozens of concessions like Youwerecreated, and this is your only chance to refuse gracefully and respectfully--otherwise, same consequences.

What the hell are you yammering about? My contention is that you have different standards for yourself v. the faithful, and lie about what the evidence shows.

That's proven every time you open your stupid mouth. There's really nothing else to bring.

Someone needs to give you reputation points I tried but it wouldn't let me and that was after i added reputation to BB.
 
Does anyone else wonder how long this thread can keep going, considering the arguments seem to have been pretty much exhausted and are getting to the point of just being rehashed between the same people? :)

Not really, because we have a different theory of evolution going on now.
 
Every YWC thread is simply him forcing you to repeat yourself, and re-debunk assessments he made earlier in the thread over and over again until you're bored with it.


Then once you're bored with proving him wrong, he repeats himself again, and declares himself victor.
 
Not a slip up, but we can discuss a few so called beneficial mutations and see if they were really beneficial to the whole human race.

Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max

For honest answers.

Mutations

It would be nice if any of your bible bloggers ever had any education in biology.

But then again if they were educated in biology, they wouldn't be evolution deniers.

more like, if they didn't they would lie about it. Creationists are some of the biggest liars around. Do they think god really wants them to lie for him/her/it?

Hold on a second pal, you sound like these Ideologues we are talking to.

We look at the same evidence as you evolutionist we have different presuppositions that is why we interpret evidence differently. We come at it from the point of view of creation you come at from the point of view of a naturalist. If you can understand the differences that presents from observed evidence then you're no different then your bretheren.
 
Lee Spetner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read all about it. He essentially invented his own version of evolution.

Yep but in the process destroyed the mutation argument.

No, actually that backs it up. What have I told you? Mutations are not beneficial or harmful, they just are. It is the environment that changes. Unbelievable that a scientist, even a physicist would make such an elementary mistake.

Oh it's not a mistake,there is no evidence to suggest mutations cause macro-evolution zero.
 
Every YWC thread is simply him forcing you to repeat yourself, and re-debunk assessments he made earlier in the thread over and over again until you're bored with it.


Then once you're bored with proving him wrong, he repeats himself again, and declares himself victor.

I think you're right. The question is, why does he bother? He's not going to convince anyone who knows anything about the subject. Is he really foolish enough to think there are no answers to the arguments he's raising? What does he get out of this? It's quite mysterious.

Anyway, I think I will take your implied advice and be done with this thread. There is really no point in arguing with committed creationists; no evidence will be seriously and honestly considered.
 
This has already been tested and proven, again your bible bloggers don't provide the earth-shattering evidence you were praying for.

Gain-of-function mutation in FGFR3 in mice leads to decreased bone mass by affecting both osteoblastogenesis and osteoclastogenesis

Not to mention gene and even whole genome duplication events which we have seen take place recently add tremendous information to the gene pool, something creationists ignore.

The key is new information to the genepool you have admitted that when breeding takes place you breed information out not information in unless you are cross breeding.

DR. Max evolutionist agreed with DR. Spetner

Max: I agree that there are no definitive examples where a macroevolutionary change (such as the development of cetaceans from terrestrial mammals) has been shown to result from a specific chain of mutations. And I agree with your further comment that “we have no way of observing a long series of mutations.” But you go on to say that “our inability to observe such series cannot be used as a justification for the assumption that the series Darwinian theory requires indeed exist.” An equally reasonable conclusion, in my view, would be that our inability to observe such series cannot be used as a justification for the assumption that such a series of mutations did NOT occur.

Spetner: Now Ed, that’s ridiculous! Those two statements are not symmetrical. I don’t have to assume the series did not occur to make a case for the inadequacy of NDT. You, who are basing your theory of evolution on the occurrence of such a series, are required to show that it exists, or at least that it is likely to exist. You are obliged to show an existence. I am not obliged to prove a non-existence.
[LMS: IN MAX’S POSTING HE MOVED THIS REMARK OF MINE TO A LATER POINT IN THE DIALOGUE. I ORIGINALLY HAD IT HERE, AND HERE IS WHERE IT BELONGS.]

Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max
 
they were hoping it could be a transitional fossil that linked humans and some sort of apelike creature.

"Transitional fossil" is a creationist term. It carries no weight with scientists. Your statement as to what was hoped is, therefore, incorrect. You are exaggerating the degree to which creationist arguments are taken seriously among biologists from, well, zero (which is the reality) to something in the plausible zone.

Ever heard of Darwin ? the term was used by him.
 
Every YWC thread is simply him forcing you to repeat yourself, and re-debunk assessments he made earlier in the thread over and over again until you're bored with it.


Then once you're bored with proving him wrong, he repeats himself again, and declares himself victor.

I think you're right. The question is, why does he bother? He's not going to convince anyone who knows anything about the subject. Is he really foolish enough to think there are no answers to the arguments he's raising? What does he get out of this? It's quite mysterious.

Anyway, I think I will take your implied advice and be done with this thread. There is really no point in arguing with committed creationists; no evidence will be seriously and honestly considered.

He doesn't even click on the proof I provide anymore. He probably reads the word "science" somewhere in the link I provide and determines it's not worth clicking on.
 
Your article never once mentions mutation, and I have no idea why you posted it. Scientists have different estimations about how many species there are? So what?

Every other article and link you've provided says beneficial mutations happen, I'm glad they agree with me and I'm not sure why you'd post articles and links that state the exact opposite of what you're trying to convince us.

The point is there are too many family of organisms to evolve over time through beneficial mutations,Because they are so rare.

Mutations are common, beneficial is a misnomer. How many times do you think you have to hear something before it sinks in?

Here you go I will only post a little bit of the article i would read the whole article.

The Detrimental Mutation Rate

and the Genetic Deterioration of Mankind




Since mutations are the only possible source of novel genomic function in the evolution of living things, we should consider a few facts about these mutations. Mutations are thought to be purely random events causes by errors of replication and maintenance over time. They occur anywhere in the entire genome in a fairly random fashion with each generation. Given this information, lets consider how these mutations would build up and what effect, if any, they would have on a human lineage.

Some researchers suggests a detrimental mutation rate (Ud) of 1 to 3 per person per generation with at least some scientists (Nachmann and Crowell, 2000) favoring at least 3 or more.30 Notice that these detrimental mutation rates are based on overall DNA mutation rate estimates that are indirectly determined based on assumed evolutionary relationships. The actual mutation rates, as noted above, are likely to be much higher. In any case, even given these assumptions, since detrimental mutations outnumber beneficial mutations by at least 1,000 to 1, it seems like the build up of detrimental mutations in a population might lead toward extinction. 34,36

Nachmann and Crowell detail the perplexing situation at hand in the following conclusion from their fairly recent paper on human mutation rates:





The high deleterious mutation rate in humans presents a paradox. If mutations interact multiplicatively, the genetic load associated with such a high U [detrimental mutation rate] would be intolerable in species with a low rate of reproduction [like humans and apes etc.] . . .

The reduction in fitness (i.e., the genetic load) due to deleterious mutations with multiplicative effects is given by 1 - e -U (Kimura and Moruyama 1966). For U = 3, the average fitness is reduced to 0.05, or put differently, each female would need to produce 40 offspring for 2 to survive and maintain the population at constant size. This assumes that all mortality is due to selection and so the actual number of offspring required to maintain a constant population size is probably higher.

The problem can be mitigated somewhat by soft selection or by selection early in development (e.g., in utero). However, many mutations are unconditionally deleterious and it is improbable that the reproductive potential on average for human females can approach 40 zygotes. This problem can be overcome if most deleterious mutations exhibit synergistic epistasis; this is, if each additional mutation leads to a larger decrease in relative fitness. In the extreme, this gives rise to truncation selection in which all individuals carrying more than a threshold number of mutations are eliminated from the population. While extreme truncation selection seems unrealistic [the death of all those with a detrimental mutational balance], the results presented here indicate that some form of positive epistasis among deleterious mutations is likely.30





Nachmann and Crowell find the situation a very puzzling one. How does one get rid of all the bad mutations faster than they are produced? Does their hypothesis of positive epistasis adequately explain how detrimental mutations can be cleared faster than they are added to a population? If the functional effects of mutations were increased in a multiplicative instead of additive fashion, would fewer individuals die than before? As noted above, even if every detrimental mutation caused the death of its owner, the reproductive burden of the survivors would not diminish, but would remain the same.

For example, lets say that all those with at least three detrimental mutations die before reproducing. The population average would soon hover just above 3 deleterious mutation rates. Over 95% of each subsequent generation would have 3 or more deleterious mutations as compared with the original "neutral" population. The death rate would increase dramatically. In order to keep up, the reproductive rates of those surviving individuals would have to increase in proportion to the increased death rate. The same thing would eventually happen if the death line were drawn at 100, 500, 1000, 10000 or more deleterious mutations. The only difference would be the length of time it would take a given population to build up a lethal number of deleterious mutations in its gene pool beginning at a relatively "neutral" starting point. The population might survive fairly well for many generations without having to resort to huge increases in the reproduction rate. However, without getting rid of the accumulating deleterious mutations, the population would eventually find itself experiencing an exponential rise in its death rate as its average population crossed the line of lethal mutations.

Since the theory of positive epistasis does not seem to help the situation much, some other process must be found to explain how to preferentially get rid of detrimental mutations from a population. Consider an excerpt from a fairly recent Scientific American article entitled, "Mutations Galore":





According to standard population genetics theory, the figure of three harmful mutations per person per generation implies that three people would have to die prematurely in each generation (or fail to reproduce) for each person who reproduced in order to eliminate the now absent deleterious mutations [75% death rate]. Humans do not reproduce fast enough to support such a huge death toll. As James F. Crow of the University of Wisconsin asked rhetorically, in a commentary in Nature on Eyre-Walker and Keightley's analysis: "Why aren't we extinct?"

Crow's answer is that sex, which shuffles genes around, allows detrimental mutations to be eliminated in bunches. The new findings thus support the idea that sex evolved because individuals who (thanks to sex) inherited several bad mutations rid the gene pool of all of them at once, by failing to survive or reproduce.

Yet natural selection has weakened in human populations with the advent of modern medicine, Crow notes. So he theorizes that harmful mutations may now be starting to accumulate at an even higher rate, with possibly worrisome consequences for health. Keightley is skeptical: he thinks that many mildly deleterious mutations have already become widespread in human populations through random events in evolution and that various adaptations, notably intelligence, have more than compensated. "I doubt that we'll have to pay a penalty as Crow seems to think," he remarks. "We've managed perfectly well up until now." 37



Well, the answer might be found in a combination of processes where both sexual replication and natural selection play a role to keep a slowly reproducing population from going extinct. For example consider the following chart showing how deleterious mutations build up in a population that reproduces via asexual means: 49











Notice how the most fit "Progenitor Class" (P) loss numbers in each generation while the numbers of those that have greater numbers of deleterious mutations build up more and more. In this article Rice notes that in asexual populations the only way to really overcome this buildup of detrimental mutations is to increase the reproductive rate substantially. But, what about beneficial mutations? Rice comments, "Rare reverse and compensatory mutations can move deleterious mutations, via genetic hitchhiking, against the flow of genetic polarization. But this is a minor influence, analogous to water turbulence that occasionally transports a pebble a short distance upstream." 49 So, how do sexually reproducing populations overcome this problem?

When it comes to sexually reproducing populations, the ability for genetic recombination during the formation of gametes makes it possible to concentrate both good and bad mutations. For example, lets say we have two individuals, each with 2 detrimental mutations. Given sexual recombination between these two individuals, there is a decent chance that some of their offspring (1 chance in 32) will not have any inherited detrimental mutations. But what happens when the rate of additional detrimental mutations is quite high - higher than 3?

To look into this just a bit more, consider another example of a steady state population of 5,000 individuals each starting out with 7 detrimental mutations and an average detrimental mutation rate of 3 per individual per generation. Given a reproductive rate of 4 offspring per each one of the 2,500 couples (10,000 offspring), in one generation, how many offspring will have the same or fewer detrimental mutations than the parent generation?



Inherited
After Ud = 3

7
901

6
631

5
378

4
189

3
76

2
23

1
5

0
0.45

< or = 7
2202




This Poisson approximation shows that out of 10,000 offspring, only 2,202 of them would have the same or less than the original number of detrimental mutations of the parent population. This leaves 7,798 with more detrimental mutations than the parent population.51 Of course, in order to maintain a steady state population of 5,000, natural selection must cull out 5,000 of these 10,000 offspring before they are able to reproduce. Given a preference, those with more detrimental mutations will be less fit by a certain degree and will be removed from the population before those that are more fit (less detrimental mutations). Given strong selection pressure, the second generation might be made up of ~2,200 more fit individuals and only ~2,800 less fit individuals with the overall average showing a decline as compared with the original parent generation. If selection pressure is strong, so that the majority of those with more than 7 detrimental mutations are removed from the population, the next generation will only have about 1,100 mating couples as compared to 2,500 in the original generation. With a reproductive rate of 4 per couple, only 4,400 offspring will be produced as compared to 10,000 originally. In order to keep up with this loss, the reproductive rate must be increased or the population will head toward extinction. In fact, given a detrimental mutation rate of Ud = 3 in a sexually reproducing population, the average number of offspring needed to keep up would be around 20 per breeding couple (2eUd/2). While this is about half that required for an asexual population (2eUd), it is still quite significant.

In this light, consider that more recent estimates suggest that the deleterious mutation rate is even higher. "Extrapolations from studies of humans and Drosophila (Mukai, 1979; Kondroshov, 1988; Crow, 1993) suggest that Ud > 5 is feasible." 49 However, the number of required offspring needed to compensate for a detrimental mutation rate of Ud = 5 would soar to 148 per female per generation! And, this is not the worst of it. Recent genetic studies have shown that much of what was once thought of as "junk DNA" is actually functional ( Link ). In fact, these recent studies suggest that the total amount of functional DNA in the human genome is not actually 2-3% as previously thought, but is upwards of 85-90% ( Link ). Consider also that what were once thought to be neutral mutations are now being discovered to be functional mutations governed by natural selection. In a 2007 paper published in the Indian Journal of Human Genetics, author Clyde Winters claims to have made a very interesting discovery.



It is often assumed that selection plays a limited role in the mtDNA control region. . . However, there is a selective constraint on mutation frequencies of an mtDNA site. Some of the East African transitions . . . are the most rapidly occurring nucleotide substitutions in the human mitochondrial genome. These transitions are often referred too as "hotspots." These hot spots of mutational activity suggest that positive selection influences mutation rates and not neutral selection which, theoretically, would manifest parallel mutations.53





Of course, this is not the only region in the human genome that was once thought to be limited to neutral mutations alone. Much of the genome is now known to be subject to differential selection.

So what. What does this matter? It matters to this particular problem because the actual detrimental mutation rate would be a significantly greater percentage of the total number of mutations experienced by the genome in each generation. As noted above, the total number of mutations per offspring per generation is at least 175. If the functional genome percentage was actually 50% (instead of just 2%), the likely detrimental mutation rate (Ud) would be well over 30 instead of the usual estimates of ~3 noted above. This would increase the reproductive rate needed to avoid genomic decay from ~20 offspring per woman per generation to well over 10 trillion offspring per woman per generation - obviously an impossible hurdle to overcome.

In short, the best available evidence overwhelmingly supports the theory that the human genome is in decay. The various forms of "positive epistasis" (see illustration by Rice below) 49 do not solve this problem.















The Y-Chromosome Rapidly Headed for Extinction?



Also, what about the Y-chromosome in males? The Y-chromosome does not undergo significant sexual recombination. Are the males of slowly reproducing species, like humans, therefore headed for extinction at an even faster rate than females?



"The absence of recombination with a homologous partner means that it [The Y-chromosome] can never be repaired by recombination. This has led to suggestions that the Y is destined for extinction it will eventually dwindle to nothing. According to this model, its role in sex determination will eventually be taken on by genes elsewhere in the genome." 50



The author of the above quoted article goes onto point out that several species, like the Armenian mole vole, are able to reproduce without the Y chromosome. While this might explain where humans are headed, it doesn't seem quite clear as to just how the Y-chromosome could have evolved over millions of years of time given its relative inability to combat high detrimental mutation rates.

DNA Mutation Rates and Evolution
 
Good. Like I said, I'm not interested in having you re-post walls of text that you don't even understand. I want this in your own words.



Wrong. It was you, not I, who claimed that it was mathematically impossible for evolution to have produced the results we see. As that is your assertion, not mine, it is your burden of proof, not mine.

I used the percentage difference in the Dna of a chimp and human to show the impossibility.

Which is 150,000,000 base pairs of Dna.

Look in the old threads ask drock or someone I am not gonna put it all out again.

It took a little time to work it out.

And when did you calculate in the chromosome translocation event that separates us from all other primates ?

What is your point ?

It's just two chromosomes getting stuck together.
 
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The preferred theory now is Neo,that is positive mutation+natural selection+large spans of time equal macro-evolution.

Don't know what you mean by "Neo" (watching The Matrix too many times?) but this is more or less accurate: mutation plus natural selection.

However, you demonstrated above that you do NOT know what "mutation" means, and you have demonstrated with other posts that you also don't know what "natural selection" means, so the fact that you can spout those words correctly doesn't mean you understand the theory.

Neo darwinism.

Definition for neo darwinism:




Web definitions:




a modern Darwinian theory that explains new species in terms of genetic mutations.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
 
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