Custer's last stand

[Ringel05]

Well we can all second guess, even the people who were there, are you aware how inaccurate eyewitness accounts can be? Very inaccurate. As for the range and power of the Springfields they were still heavily outnumbered and the Indians were defending their women and children, that's always a huge motivating factor. Reno was in an untenable position as he saw it, doesn't make him a coward or incompetent, means he assessed the situation the best he could and made a decision just like all military commanders are trained to do.
As for who and more importantly why a movement was made to make contact with Custer is actually a moot point because if a way was open we have no idea if Reno would have taken it or not.

in a sense, that's what makes it so interesting...I like to shy away from the "Custer wanted all the glory" kinda thing as much as I woudln't condem Reno perse as a coward...
Reno was no Indian fighter, but certainly a very brave civil war officer, yet in a sense it makes him incompetent
Custer was certainly in a tight spot politically, needing to get a good outcome of the campaign...he was only re-instated by Grant because Sheridan demanded it...so a glorious campaign would have secured his stay in the army

EVERY officer in a comand position was either in allegiance with custer or hated his guts...very interesting way of going into battle

"they were still heavily outnumbered" look at the numbers of Reno's and Benteen combined command: they're not that high, are they? specially with Reno loosing half of his men....yet, they held out for a whole day and a night with the Indians giving up finally...if the numbers factor would have been that heavily counting, they should have been wiped out just like Custer

It wasn't just numbers on Reno's Hill, he had found a more defensive position and had been reinforced so the main elements of that engagement changed, battles are never static neither are decisions. A battle plan goes out the window when the first shot is fired......... Reno not being a seasoned Indian fighter doesn't make him incompetent, it makes him inexperienced, nothing more, nothing less. And as has already been pointed out by you Custer and his men never really made a "last stand" per se, they were pretty much killed on the move. As for my statement about Custer wanting all the glory, historians and biographers have already shown this was his driving force, to reclaim the glory he enjoyed during the Civil War so my claim is much more probable than not.

 

[Ringel05]

Well we can all second guess, even the people who were there, are you aware how inaccurate eyewitness accounts can be? Very inaccurate. As for the range and power of the Springfields they were still heavily outnumbered and the Indians were defending their women and children, that's always a huge motivating factor. Reno was in an untenable position as he saw it, doesn't make him a coward or incompetent, means he assessed the situation the best he could and made a decision just like all military commanders are trained to do.
As for who and more importantly why a movement was made to make contact with Custer is actually a moot point because if a way was open we have no idea if Reno would have taken it or not.

in a sense, that's what makes it so interesting...I like to shy away from the "Custer wanted all the glory" kinda thing as much as I woudln't condem Reno perse as a coward...
Reno was no Indian fighter, but certainly a very brave civil war officer, yet in a sense it makes him incompetent
Custer was certainly in a tight spot politically, needing to get a good outcome of the campaign...he was only re-instated by Grant because Sheridan demanded it...so a glorious campaign would have secured his stay in the army

EVERY officer in a comand position was either in allegiance with custer or hated his guts...very interesting way of going into battle

"they were still heavily outnumbered" look at the numbers of Reno's and Benteen combined command: they're not that high, are they? specially with Reno loosing half of his men....yet, they held out for a whole day and a night with the Indians giving up finally...if the numbers factor would have been that heavily counting, they should have been wiped out just like Custer

....didn't they concentrate on Custer--giving Reno and Benteen time to dig fighting holes and get positioned? a good defensive perimeter
...whereas Custer did not have time to make a fighting position/dig in/etc
...the NAs had the advantage against Custer because it was a '''rout''/retreat

Yup, completely different battle scenarios.

 

[eagle1462010]

Custer was a very brave and Arrogant General. His Arrogance led to his destruction. Ignored warnings and split forces against superior numbers. Violated orders by not waiting for the infantry to be at the battle from the South.

Vanity and Pride were his downfall. Not Reno who did what he had to do or his command would have been destroyed as well.

Little known fact about Custer............in the battle of Gettysburg he defeated General Stuart who had superior numbers with a charge on the last day of the battle.

 

[eagle1462010]

I've been to that park and the location of the last stand...........It's clear that they got cut off out in the open.............had that not happened.......Custer isn't stupid........he would have tried to retreat to a more defensive position.

Just as Reno did.

 

[Camp]

Well we can all second guess, even the people who were there, are you aware how inaccurate eyewitness accounts can be? Very inaccurate. As for the range and power of the Springfields they were still heavily outnumbered and the Indians were defending their women and children, that's always a huge motivating factor. Reno was in an untenable position as he saw it, doesn't make him a coward or incompetent, means he assessed the situation the best he could and made a decision just like all military commanders are trained to do.
As for who and more importantly why a movement was made to make contact with Custer is actually a moot point because if a way was open we have no idea if Reno would have taken it or not.

in a sense, that's what makes it so interesting...I like to shy away from the "Custer wanted all the glory" kinda thing as much as I woudln't condem Reno perse as a coward...
Reno was no Indian fighter, but certainly a very brave civil war officer, yet in a sense it makes him incompetent
Custer was certainly in a tight spot politically, needing to get a good outcome of the campaign...he was only re-instated by Grant because Sheridan demanded it...so a glorious campaign would have secured his stay in the army

EVERY officer in a comand position was either in allegiance with custer or hated his guts...very interesting way of going into battle

"they were still heavily outnumbered" look at the numbers of Reno's and Benteen combined command: they're not that high, are they? specially with Reno loosing half of his men....yet, they held out for a whole day and a night with the Indians giving up finally...if the numbers factor would have been that heavily counting, they should have been wiped out just like Custer

Reno got lucky or had good scouts. He got his men to high ground, the top of a hill that had a depression at the summit, a sort of bowl that offered protection from snipers on nearby hills and an earthen berm for use against NA who might attempt charging up the hill. Reno and his men would have met the same fate as Custer if they had not made it up that hill.

 

[Lincoln1976]

It would have been nice if Custer had taken the Gatling Guns like he was supposed to. Idiot.

the Gatlin gun he was suppose to take (actually three of them) where carriage mounted ...pieces of "artillery" really...not much use for a quick strike force....I don't know how to post the individual image but look at these monsters

gatling gun 1875 - Google Search:

If that would have worked, than they could have used the 1500 men infantery that marches up from the South..the main force under Sheridan

 

[eagle1462010]

Crazy Horse's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn

AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN, Crazy Horse led his crack troops in charges that shattered the defenses of first Reno and then Custer.

Iron Hawk and Standing Bear described how Crazy Horse's first flanking charge of the battle "broke Reno's left wing" in the timber and sent his men fleeing for their lives, and Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse personally rode among the American soldiers and "killed a lot of them with his war-club." Then after he disengaged from Reno, Crazy Horse led his combined Sioux and Cheyenne force to flank Custer's retreating men.

Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse "shot them [American soldiers] as fast as he could load his gun" while he studied the situation. Then He Dog said Crazy Horse led a charge which split Custer's right flank on the ridge above the river. In the deadly melee that followed, Red Feather described how Crazy Horse rode between the two split portions blowing on his wild, unearthly Eagle Horn. Crazy Horse drew withering fire but escaped untouched.

 

[Camp]

Crazy Horse's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn

AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN, Crazy Horse led his crack troops in charges that shattered the defenses of first Reno and then Custer.

Iron Hawk and Standing Bear described how Crazy Horse's first flanking charge of the battle "broke Reno's left wing" in the timber and sent his men fleeing for their lives, and Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse personally rode among the American soldiers and "killed a lot of them with his war-club." Then after he disengaged from Reno, Crazy Horse led his combined Sioux and Cheyenne force to flank Custer's retreating men.

Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse "shot them [American soldiers] as fast as he could load his gun" while he studied the situation. Then He Dog said Crazy Horse led a charge which split Custer's right flank on the ridge above the river. In the deadly melee that followed, Red Feather described how Crazy Horse rode between the two split portions blowing on his wild, unearthly Eagle Horn. Crazy Horse drew withering fire but escaped untouched.

After having been to the battlefield, do you believe the story you just posted?

 

[eagle1462010]

Indian Wars, Rosebud -- Wyoming Tales and Trails

Following the battle, Henry was brevetted as a brigadier general. During the Spanish American War, Henry was promoted to major general. The Battle of the Rosebud is regarded as an Indian victory. Some contend that Crook's failure to advise of the strength of Indian forces was one of the causes of the loss by Custer eight days later at the Little Big Horn or Greasy Grass.




Crazy Horse forced a retreat of over a 1000 men in the battle of Rosebud. While there were not many casualties. If they couldn't beat Crazy Horse with that many men then how could so few with Custer do the same.

 

[mudwhistle]

I'd like to know your opinion about the battle of the greasy grass eg. Custer's last stand....I recently bought a book by Peter Panzeri (Little Big Horn 1876) and was quite intreagued by it, since it does give a very good and detailed insight into said battle.

I always knew about Major Reno's questionable command of his troops, yet the whole extend in which his incompetance (and cowardice) contributed to Custer's command's demise is quite astonishing.

Sure, one can blame Custer for hot headedly storming into the situation which than turned against him, yet it was Reno's retreat (and subsequent heavy losses) which allowed the Indians to break loose and concentrate their whole numbers on Custer...

So,what do you think?

I read a book about it...Reno spent most of the battle drunk and cowering in a hole in the fetal position.

 

[Lincoln1976]

Crazy Horse's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn

AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN, Crazy Horse led his crack troops in charges that shattered the defenses of first Reno and then Custer.

Iron Hawk and Standing Bear described how Crazy Horse's first flanking charge of the battle "broke Reno's left wing" in the timber and sent his men fleeing for their lives, and Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse personally rode among the American soldiers and "killed a lot of them with his war-club." Then after he disengaged from Reno, Crazy Horse led his combined Sioux and Cheyenne force to flank Custer's retreating men.

Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse "shot them [American soldiers] as fast as he could load his gun" while he studied the situation. Then He Dog said Crazy Horse led a charge which split Custer's right flank on the ridge above the river. In the deadly melee that followed, Red Feather described how Crazy Horse rode between the two split portions blowing on his wild, unearthly Eagle Horn. Crazy Horse drew withering fire but escaped untouched.

well, that was a very interesting read! thanks!

 

[eagle1462010]

Crazy Horse's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn

AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN, Crazy Horse led his crack troops in charges that shattered the defenses of first Reno and then Custer.

Iron Hawk and Standing Bear described how Crazy Horse's first flanking charge of the battle "broke Reno's left wing" in the timber and sent his men fleeing for their lives, and Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse personally rode among the American soldiers and "killed a lot of them with his war-club." Then after he disengaged from Reno, Crazy Horse led his combined Sioux and Cheyenne force to flank Custer's retreating men.

Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse "shot them [American soldiers] as fast as he could load his gun" while he studied the situation. Then He Dog said Crazy Horse led a charge which split Custer's right flank on the ridge above the river. In the deadly melee that followed, Red Feather described how Crazy Horse rode between the two split portions blowing on his wild, unearthly Eagle Horn. Crazy Horse drew withering fire but escaped untouched.

After having been to the battlefield, do you believe the story you just posted?

Yes. Been to Crazy Horse mountain as well.

Crazy Horse was legendary to the Indians. With the best Calvary in the time. He outflanked over a 1000 men in the battle of Rosebud. I have no doubt that he slammed into Reno and then maneuvered to crush Custer.

 

[Lincoln1976]

I read a book about it...Reno spent most of the battle drunk and cowering in a hole in the fetal position.

as I've stated quite clearly: I've read and heard about several depictions and only started to question cerain aspects when I read the mentioned book by Panzeri....we learn from reading books..or what do you do? get in your delorean, switch on the Flux compensator and go back to see for yourself?

geez..when people think books are anti-intellectual

 

[Votto]

I'd like to know your opinion about the battle of the greasy grass eg. Custer's last stand....I recently bought a book by Peter Panzeri (Little Big Horn 1876) and was quite intreagued by it, since it does give a very good and detailed insight into said battle.

I always knew about Major Reno's questionable command of his troops, yet the whole extend in which his incompetance (and cowardice) contributed to Custer's command's demise is quite astonishing.

Sure, one can blame Custer for hot headedly storming into the situation which than turned against him, yet it was Reno's retreat (and subsequent heavy losses) which allowed the Indians to break loose and concentrate their whole numbers on Custer...

So,what do you think?

I dunno, but I think it's a little late to be assessing the situation now. LOL.

Anyhew, Custer was simply a power hungry arrogant warmonger who had no real respect for his enemy.

 

[fncceo]

Is it too late to warn Custer?

 

[Lincoln1976]

I've been to that park and the location of the last stand...........It's clear that they got cut off out in the open.............had that not happened.......Custer isn't stupid........he would have tried to retreat to a more defensive position.

As far as I am aware, was it the fleeing non combatants, Custer was after..he send the left wing there but they were repulsed by warriors under Gall (?) and rallied back towards Custer hill

 

[Lincoln1976]

I dunno, but I think it's a little late to be assessing the situation now. LOL.

Anyhew, Custer was simply a power hungry arrogant warmonger who had no real respect for his enemy.

I disagree...I live in acountry, where the actions of men who fought 700 or 1000 years ago are still relevant today..in Custer's case, I find it very importand to avoid the "little big man" cliche of a lunatic incompetent "warmonger"....fist of all: he deserves some respect for the service he has done to his country during his career and secondly, is the thought that the US army would be completely reckless and stupid and God what not not a bit far fetched?

 

[Camp]

Crazy Horse's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn

AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN, Crazy Horse led his crack troops in charges that shattered the defenses of first Reno and then Custer.

Iron Hawk and Standing Bear described how Crazy Horse's first flanking charge of the battle "broke Reno's left wing" in the timber and sent his men fleeing for their lives, and Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse personally rode among the American soldiers and "killed a lot of them with his war-club." Then after he disengaged from Reno, Crazy Horse led his combined Sioux and Cheyenne force to flank Custer's retreating men.

Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse "shot them [American soldiers] as fast as he could load his gun" while he studied the situation. Then He Dog said Crazy Horse led a charge which split Custer's right flank on the ridge above the river. In the deadly melee that followed, Red Feather described how Crazy Horse rode between the two split portions blowing on his wild, unearthly Eagle Horn. Crazy Horse drew withering fire but escaped untouched.

After having been to the battlefield, do you believe the story you just posted?

Yes. Been to Crazy Horse mountain as well.

Crazy Horse was legendary to the Indians. With the best Calvary in the time. He outflanked over a 1000 men in the battle of Rosebud. I have no doubt that he slammed into Reno and then maneuvered to crush Custer.

Well, the Army examined the Custer battlefield extensively and mapped not only where the US soldiers fell, but also bloodstains indicating fallen or wounded NA's, and importantly, where they found empty cartridges. Nothing indicates Custer or his men made it to any ridge or his forces were split during the last stand battle.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I'd like to know your opinion about the battle of the greasy grass eg. Custer's last stand....I recently bought a book by Peter Panzeri (Little Big Horn 1876) and was quite intreagued by it, since it does give a very good and detailed insight into said battle.

I always knew about Major Reno's questionable command of his troops, yet the whole extend in which his incompetance (and cowardice) contributed to Custer's command's demise is quite astonishing.

Sure, one can blame Custer for hot headedly storming into the situation which than turned against him, yet it was Reno's retreat (and subsequent heavy losses) which allowed the Indians to break loose and concentrate their whole numbers on Custer...

So,what do you think?

Readers Digest version:
Custer split his forces. Both got pinned down in open field and were sitting targets with no cover. They wanted to reunite but the injuns were smart and prevented it. The whole battle was a running battle. ‘The Last Stand’ was just a finale hilltop where the last of Custer and his men were killed. They never stood a chance.

 

[eagle1462010]

I've been to that park and the location of the last stand...........It's clear that they got cut off out in the open.............had that not happened.......Custer isn't stupid........he would have tried to retreat to a more defensive position.

As far as I am aware, was it the fleeing non combatants, Custer was after..he send the left wing there but they were repulsed by warriors under Gall (?) and rallied back towards Custer hill

I seem to remember that as well. They did attack the camp and Crazy Horse responded. Crazy Horse was famous for dividing the enemy and then attacking smaller numbers with superior numbers. Killing the enemy in piece meal. Which is exactly what happened.