Custer's last stand

[Lincoln1976]

Not only those previous screw-ups our troops were sent to North Africa without winter gear........, in November....... The night gets below freezing during the winter. Guess none of the planners had ever been to a desert in the winter.

sounds like the brilliant German winter war fighting plan for Russia....they were sent to Russia in their summer uniforms without any winter gear available and when the offensive ground to a halt before Moscow, they froze their asses off! poor sods didn't even have white covers for their field grey uniforms!
I was told that you could soon see German soldiers wearing womens fur coats (donations from the home front) and such stuff....must have been a hillarious sight...even though quite sad

 

[Ringel05]

Custer's Last Stand is one of my favorite research subjects. For about the last 30 years, the vast majority of Custer scholars have concluded that Custer's battle plan was sound, given what he knew, and that the main reason for his defeat was Reno and Benteen's failure to follow his orders and to come to his aid when they surely knew he needed it. Here's my website on the subject:

https://miketgriffith.com/files/custer.pdf

I always love after the fact conclusions where even most historians omit the one key element in their writings, the "fog of battle". It never occurred to these esteemed writers that maybe Reno and Benteen did exactly what they thought was correct in their situation due to the dynamics of what was going on with them......... Obviously the vast majority of Custer scholars had never been trained as combat officers so don't understand the "fog of war".........

 

[eagle1462010]

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/custer-massacres-cheyenne-on-washita-river

Sheridan determined that a campaign in winter might prove more effective, since the Indians could be caught off guard while in their permanent camps. On November 26, Custer located a large village of Cheyenne encamped near the Washita River, just outside of present-day Cheyenne, Oklahoma. Custer did not attempt to identify which group of Cheyenne was in the village, or to make even a cursory reconnaissance of the situation. Had he done so, Custer would have discovered that they were peaceful people and the village was on reservation soil, where the commander of Fort Cobb had guaranteed them safety. There was even a white flag flying from one of the main dwellings, indicating that the tribe was actively avoiding conflict.


Having surrounded the village the night before, at dawn Custer called for the regimental band to play “Garry Owen,” which signaled for four columns of soldiers to charge into the sleeping village. Outnumbered and caught unaware, scores of Cheyenne were killed in the first 15 minutes of the “battle,” though a small number of the warriors managed to escape to the trees and return fire. Within a few hours, the village was destroyed–the soldiers had killed 103 Cheyenne, including the peaceful Black Kettle and many women and children



Custer's Indian fighting fame was attacking a peaceful village on a reservation. Killing women and children. While Custer was a very brave fighter. His only dream was a feather in his hat. And that led to the defeat and his death later.

 

[Ringel05]

Not only those previous screw-ups our troops were sent to North Africa without winter gear........, in November....... The night gets below freezing during the winter. Guess none of the planners had ever been to a desert in the winter.

sounds like the brilliant German winter war fighting plan for Russia....they were sent to Russia in their summer uniforms without any winter gear available and when the offensive ground to a halt before Moscow, they froze their asses off! poor sods didn't even have white covers for their field grey uniforms!
I was told that you could soon see German soldiers wearing womens fur coats (donations from the home front) and such stuff....must have been a hillarious sight...even though quite sad

Hitler assured the General Staff that they would have Russia beaten before the start of winter, they got a huge amount of information wrong before the start of Barbarossa.

 

[Unkotare]

Custer was an arrogant buffoon whose luck ran out.

 

[captkaos]

Bad old United States!

By the way the Sioux were pushed west in 1700 or so by the Iroquois who were trying to exterminate them. So the Sioux exterminated the Wicosawan and took their lands and began work on exterminating the Pawnee.
Custer used Crow Indian scouts because the Sioux had been massacring and enslaving Crow Indians for years. Over 160 Crow fought the Sioux and Cheyanne at Rosebud alongside the US Army.
The Arikara assisted Custer as well. Their nation had been brutally annihilated by the Sioux in 1862 at Star Village. The Arikara remnant fled to Fishhook Village for American protection but by the end of 1862 the Sioux had burned them out there as well.
No wonder Custer had so many willing Indian allies.

yeah,that is the aspect, people nowadays are completely ignorant about...the Sioux came from Canada (Yukon territory) so..were they invaders?
it's all a big fucking feel good bullshit lie about the "noble Indian"...stone age warrior societies tend to be bad neighbors and the raiding on white settlers was a real thing back than...

And why were white men here? Were they invited? Oh that's right Manifest Destiny! And gold in them thar hills had no impact!

 

[mikegriffith1]

Custer's Last Stand is one of my favorite research subjects. For about the last 30 years, the vast majority of Custer scholars have concluded that Custer's battle plan was sound, given what he knew, and that the main reason for his defeat was Reno and Benteen's failure to follow his orders and to come to his aid when they surely knew he needed it. Here's my website on the subject:

https://miketgriffith.com/files/custer.pdf

I always love after the fact conclusions where even most historians omit the one key element in their writings, the "fog of battle". It never occurred to these esteemed writers that maybe Reno and Benteen did exactly what they thought was correct in their situation due to the dynamics of what was going on with them......... Obviously the vast majority of Custer scholars had never been trained as combat officers so don't understand the "fog of war".........

That's excuse just won't wash. Once Custer realized the village was bigger than he thought, he sent *written* orders to Benteen to "come quick" and bring ammo, and Reno saw the order--but both of them just sat on Reno Hill until Captain Weir, fed up with their stalling, took off with his unit and shamed them into following, but by that time it was too late.

 

[Ringel05]

Custer's Last Stand is one of my favorite research subjects. For about the last 30 years, the vast majority of Custer scholars have concluded that Custer's battle plan was sound, given what he knew, and that the main reason for his defeat was Reno and Benteen's failure to follow his orders and to come to his aid when they surely knew he needed it. Here's my website on the subject:

https://miketgriffith.com/files/custer.pdf

I always love after the fact conclusions where even most historians omit the one key element in their writings, the "fog of battle". It never occurred to these esteemed writers that maybe Reno and Benteen did exactly what they thought was correct in their situation due to the dynamics of what was going on with them......... Obviously the vast majority of Custer scholars had never been trained as combat officers so don't understand the "fog of war".........

That's excuse just won't wash. Once Custer realized the village was bigger than he thought, he sent *written* orders to Benteen to "come quick" and bring ammo, and Reno saw the order--but both of them just sat on Reno Hill until Captain Weir, fed up with their stalling, took off with his unit and shamed them into following, but by that time it was too late.

That's one version

 

[protectionist]

Sometimes senior officers are plagued by the inexperience and overconfidence of subordinate officers. In the North Africa campaign, after the battle of Bengahazi, Libya, a Nazi Lieutenant told his commander (Gen. Rommel) >. "General, we have just won a great victory over the British, They are retreating. I am confident we will now conquer all of North Africa."

The General replied "You can AFFORD to be confident. I can't."

 

[Unkotare]

Not only those previous screw-ups our troops were sent to North Africa without winter gear........, in November....... The night gets below freezing during the winter. Guess none of the planners had ever been to a desert in the winter.

sounds like the brilliant German winter war fighting plan for Russia....they were sent to Russia in their summer uniforms without any winter gear available and when the offensive ground to a halt before Moscow, they froze their asses off! poor sods didn't even have white covers for their field grey uniforms!
I was told that you could soon see German soldiers wearing womens fur coats (donations from the home front) and such stuff....must have been a hillarious sight...even though quite sad

The idiot madman hitler apparently forgot about 1812.

 

[Lincoln1976]

The idiot madman hitler apparently forgot about 1812.

OK, we are going straight off topic here, but let me tell you something: the Russian army had a solid record of failing, starting with 1905 and the battle of Tsushima and Port Arthur, getting it's ass handed to what western imperial powers would have considered a third rank player (imagine Britain loosing to Argentina in 1982)...they folded in the first world war and that despite their (noted) mass of infantry attacking in swarms...they perforemed very poorly in Finland....every marker indicated that they would be push over....every marker indicated that they would be push over.....the red army lost 2.8 million men between 1941 and 42...yet they kept fighting.

German intelligence about Russia was practicly non-existing and estimates about Russian strenght were high, yet just roughly a third of what they were in reality.

As for Hitler's reason to attack: a bit more complicated than what you might think...Staliln blackmailed Hitler and while negotiating for influence spheres, amassed troops at the Western border of the Soviet Union...I've seen figures of 6 million red army troops..these troops, which were scattered by the German attack, later build the backbone of the partisan army, crippling the German supply lines....an unplaned, yet war decisive action

 

[Unkotare]

The idiot madman hitler apparently forgot about 1812.

OK, we are going straight off topic here, but let me tell you something: the Russian army had a solid record of failing, starting with 1905 and the battle of Tsushima and Port Arthur, getting it's ass handed to what western imperial powers would have considered a third rank player (imagine Britain loosing to Argentina in 1982)...they folded in the first world war and that despite their (noted) mass of infantry attacking in swarms...they perforemed very poorly in Finland....every marker indicated that they would be push over....every marker indicated that they would be push over.....the red army lost 2.8 million men between 1941 and 42...yet they kept fighting.

German intelligence about Russia was practicly non-existing and estimates about Russian strenght were high, yet just roughly a third of what they were in reality.

As for Hitler's reason to attack: a bit more complicated than what you might think...Staliln blackmailed Hitler and while negotiating for influence spheres, amassed troops at the Western border of the Soviet Union...I've seen figures of 6 million red army troops..these troops, which were scattered by the German attack, later build the backbone of the partisan army, crippling the German supply lines....an unplaned, yet war decisive action

Any other common knowledge completely unrelated to my comment you'd like to add?

 

[mikegriffith1]

Actually, Custer was sympathetic to the Indians' plight. Liberal historians don't like Custer because he was a conservative Democrat who opposed Radical Reconstruction and because he was one of General George McClellan's staunchest defenders.

Yet, even most liberal scholars who have seriously studied Custer's Last Stand, such as T. J. Stiles, now grudgingly admit that Custer's battle plan was reasonable given what he knew at the time, and that Reno and Benteen, his highest ranking subordinates, egregiously failed him and disobeyed his express written orders. Read Stiles' chapter on the the Little Big Horn battle in Custer's Trials: A Life on the Frontier of a New America. After bashing Custer at almost every opportunity in the preceding chapters of the book, Stiles does an about-face when it comes to Custer's handling of the battle at the Little Big Horn. Stiles is especially severe on Benteen: he comes close to accusing him of disobeying Custer's orders in the hope that the Indians would kill Custer.

 

[Lincoln1976]

Any other common knowledge completely unrelated to my comment you'd like to add?

How is that unrelated? Just because you can't comprehend that Hitler or the Oberkomando der Wehrmacht to be precise was convinced that Russia could be defeated before the winter sets in...Napoleon thought he could wage war for years there cause "Blitzkrieg" wasn't really on the agenda back than and armies had to live of the land, ultimately being defeated by the Russians determination to burn their own country including Moscow...the Wehrmacht was not dependant on the land for supplies, yet suffered from the escalating time scale of the invasion and partisan activity.....your point is?

Sorry, cause I don't see it

 

[Lincoln1976]

Actually, Custer was sympathetic to the Indians' plight. Liberal historians don't like Custer because he was a conservative Democrat who opposed Radical Reconstruction and because he was one of General George McClellan's staunchest defenders.

I would dispute that claim..the Washita raid was certainly not something to underpin any sympahtetic view of the Indians by Custer.

I think it's fair to say that he was a very ambitious and daring officer and that his aggressiveness has served him well until the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

Custer has to be seen as the product of the times he lived in and the indian wars were never as black and white as they are depicted today....

As for the Indians, it can be said that they lived by the sword and that the US army eagerly answered in kind

 

[Lincoln1976]

And why were white men here? Were they invited? Oh that's right Manifest Destiny! And gold in them thar hills had no impact!

Strange how you forgot to mention, that it was the constant attacks on gold prospectors that brought the US government into play...cause white lives don't matter, eh? No one wanted to settle there permanently...all they were after was gold which btw had no value for Indians....it was Indian killings which sparked the need for the federals to intervene

 

[harmonica]

Crazy Horse's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn

AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN, Crazy Horse led his crack troops in charges that shattered the defenses of first Reno and then Custer.

Iron Hawk and Standing Bear described how Crazy Horse's first flanking charge of the battle "broke Reno's left wing" in the timber and sent his men fleeing for their lives, and Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse personally rode among the American soldiers and "killed a lot of them with his war-club." Then after he disengaged from Reno, Crazy Horse led his combined Sioux and Cheyenne force to flank Custer's retreating men.

Flying Hawk described how Crazy Horse "shot them [American soldiers] as fast as he could load his gun" while he studied the situation. Then He Dog said Crazy Horse led a charge which split Custer's right flank on the ridge above the river. In the deadly melee that followed, Red Feather described how Crazy Horse rode between the two split portions blowing on his wild, unearthly Eagle Horn. Crazy Horse drew withering fire but escaped untouched.

After having been to the battlefield, do you believe the story you just posted?

Yes. Been to Crazy Horse mountain as well.

Crazy Horse was legendary to the Indians. With the best Calvary in the time. He outflanked over a 1000 men in the battle of Rosebud. I have no doubt that he slammed into Reno and then maneuvered to crush Custer.

Well, the Army examined the Custer battlefield extensively and mapped not only where the US soldiers fell, but also bloodstains indicating fallen or wounded NA's, and importantly, where they found empty cartridges. Nothing indicates Custer or his men made it to any ridge or his forces were split during the last stand battle.

The 7th Calvary was split. Reno being one part of it. Custer another. Crazy Horse hit Reno and forced a retreat then move quickly to attack Custer with Superior numbers.......Cutting off any retreat to a defensive position.

Face it. Crazy Horse was one bad assed fighter. He was never defeated and Custer got wiped out for underestimating him.

The split was to split portions of the 7th. And that most certainly happened......partially by Custer's stupidity.

and Benteen was the third

 

[harmonica]

Actually, Custer was sympathetic to the Indians' plight. Liberal historians don't like Custer because he was a conservative Democrat who opposed Radical Reconstruction and because he was one of General George McClellan's staunchest defenders.

I would dispute that claim..the Washita raid was certainly not something to underpin any sympahtetic view of the Indians by Custer.

I think it's fair to say that he was a very ambitious and daring officer and that his aggressiveness has served him well until the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

Custer has to be seen as the product of the times he lived in and the indian wars were never as black and white as they are depicted today....

As for the Indians, it can be said that they lived by the sword and that the US army eagerly answered in kind

..it's easy to be aggressive against a ''not strong'' force as at Washita

 

[harmonica]

Custer's Last Stand is one of my favorite research subjects. For about the last 30 years, the vast majority of Custer scholars have concluded that Custer's battle plan was sound, given what he knew, and that the main reason for his defeat was Reno and Benteen's failure to follow his orders and to come to his aid when they surely knew he needed it. Here's my website on the subject:

https://miketgriffith.com/files/custer.pdf

1. he knew/was told the village was large = outnumbered = splitting forces = stupid = not LISTENING to facts but to his ego
2. he ordered Reno to split away == but then he want's him to come to his aid???!!!
what?
..he ordered Benteen to come up with the packs and ammo

 

[Lincoln1976]

..it's easy to be aggressive against a ''not strong'' force as at Washita

that's not what I've ment...his conduct during the civil war was very aggressive and daring towards the enemy....his actions at Gettysburg speaks here volumes...he lead the cavalary counter attack against Picketts charge and he collapsed it