Death penalty

[Gadawg73]

A man was released from death row after DNA tests showed he was innocent of the crime he was accused of:

After 15 years on death row, freedom - CNN

This could have been one innocent person killed. If he was killed and was later found to be innocent, would this be enough for people to stop supporting the death penalty?

You mean ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE have been released because of that.
No way we can know WHICH ONES may be innocent down the road. Maybe only 1 out of 500 murderers.
So we need to end the death penalty to make damn sure that one innocent one is not put to death.
So the other 499 get life also because WE DO NOT KNOW.
Beyond a reasonable doubt is the burden and only God knows that in punishment of death.
Nothing to do about whether or not we believe they are innocent or not at trial of the murder as that is A JURY DECISION that we need to respect.
Death penalty is a separate phase of a criminal trial, AFTER THE DETERMINATION of guilt.

 

[Gadawg73]

Death penalty deters ONLY the person put to death from future crimes.
And in most cases that is a good thing.
MOST does not and should not apply in the criminal code.
Innocent folk have been put to death and the different criteria even within states on who are indicted for it and why make it uneven.

If people are wrongly being sent to Death Row, then they are wrongly being sent to jail for life.

It strikes me that you want to fix the symptom rather than the underlying problem, which is inept police and overzealous prosecutors.

Joe, the sentencing phase of a criminal trial is SEPARATE from the proof of guilt phase.
They have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.

 

[Noomi]

When an amendment is made to the Constitution it necessarily becomes part of the Constitution. I can see this is a very challenging concept for you, so you might want to ask a 5 year-old to explain it in terms you can understand.

I don't see an answer to the question. Why am I not surprised?

What question?

FFS. Go back and read my fucking post. There you will see a sentence with a question mark at the end of it. That is what a question is.

 

[Noomi]

BULL SHIT.
I can list dozens. How about David Spence who the police that investigated the murder stated he was innocent.
And Texas executed him.
Where the fuck do you get your bull crap? Out of your ass?
Claude Jones, Cameron Willingham,
Since 1973 ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE death row inmates have been released with evidence of their innocence.
And you are stupid enough to claim that is all of them.
You claim that the police are "inept" and prosecutors are "overzealous" and out of the other side of your mouth you claim there is no evidence one person that is innocent has been put to death.

A couple of years ago a black guy was released after 25 years in prison. He was accused of raping and killing a woman, but he didn't do it. He could have been executed, and how would they possibly make up for that?

 

[Unkotare]

I don't see an answer to the question. Why am I not surprised?

What question?

FFS. Go back and read my fucking post. There you will see a sentence with a question mark at the end of it. That is what a question is.

State your question if you want an answer.

 

[Noomi]

What question?

FFS. Go back and read my fucking post. There you will see a sentence with a question mark at the end of it. That is what a question is.

State your question if you want an answer.

I did. Its not my fault you are too fucking lazy to go look for it.

 

[Unkotare]

I guess it's not that important to you. Probably something stupid anyway.

 

[Noomi]

I guess it's not that important to you. Probably something stupid anyway.

Because you are blind:

This could have been one innocent person killed. If he was killed and was later found to be innocent, would this be enough for people to stop supporting the death penalty?

Answer the question. And don't give me some constitution shit that has nothing to do with my question.

 

[Unkotare]

I guess it's not that important to you. Probably something stupid anyway.

Because you are blind:

This could have been one innocent person killed. If he was killed and was later found to be innocent, would this be enough for people to stop supporting the death penalty?

Answer the question. And don't give me some constitution shit that has nothing to do with my question.

You didn't ask that question to me previously. What the hell is all this "why won't you answer?" nonsense?


In any case, the answer is no. I find it interesting that you, of all people, would ask such a question when you openly support the deliberate taking of human lives you know for sure are innocent. As I've said before, you're a fucking hypocrite.

 

[JoeB131]

Death penalty deters ONLY the person put to death from future crimes.
And in most cases that is a good thing.
MOST does not and should not apply in the criminal code.
Innocent folk have been put to death and the different criteria even within states on who are indicted for it and why make it uneven.

If people are wrongly being sent to Death Row, then they are wrongly being sent to jail for life.

It strikes me that you want to fix the symptom rather than the underlying problem, which is inept police and overzealous prosecutors.

How does your argument stack up 20 years after the conviction when they found new evidence of innocence?
The lifer IS STILL ALIVE and the other sad sack is dead.
Ask the 100s of released lifers how they feel about not facing the death penalty when DNA evidence showed them innocent and they were released.
Go to the Innocence Project and look at our work.
Real world criminal cases are not like Perry Mason re-runs, CSI and Law and Order.
Humans make mistakes and in most all cases it has absolutely nothing to do with "inept police" or "overzealous prosecutors".
On TV it always plays out that way.
Inept police never work cases good enough to prosecute for shoplifting much less a murder case.
Overzealous prosecutors? LOL, they, just like overzealous criminal defense attorneys, are the scales of justice. That is why we have JURIES.

You know what, I live in a state where they put the same guy on trial THREE TIMES when someone else confessed to the crime. He was convicted twice and sentenced to death. Finally, a judge had to put a stop to the third trial.

What the police and prosecutors did in the Hernado Cruz case shows a system that is SEVERELY broken. They didn't make "mistakes", they maliciously continued a prosecution because they just couldn't admit they got the wrong guy.

So I don't want to hear it.

 

[JoeB131]

Death penalty deters ONLY the person put to death from future crimes.
And in most cases that is a good thing.
MOST does not and should not apply in the criminal code.
Innocent folk have been put to death and the different criteria even within states on who are indicted for it and why make it uneven.

If people are wrongly being sent to Death Row, then they are wrongly being sent to jail for life.

It strikes me that you want to fix the symptom rather than the underlying problem, which is inept police and overzealous prosecutors.

Joe, the sentencing phase of a criminal trial is SEPARATE from the proof of guilt phase.
They have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.

Well, um, yeah, they kind of do.

If they hadn't LIED THEIR ASSES OFF to get a conviction to start with, we'd never be talking about a penalty phase.

Again. Hernando Cruz. Convicted on a confession that police lied about, for ten years, sentenced to death TWICE despite the fact another guy, Brian Dugan, admitted he committed the crime and eventually, DNA proved it.

Then you have John Burge, who sent guys to death row after torturing confessions out of them.

Now, it would be nice if the prosecutors who went along with this SHIT paid a price, but they weren't disbarred or fired. The guy who took Burge's confessions to trial was Richard M. Daley, who went on to be mayor of Chicago for 22 years. Patrick Ryan and Joe Burkett were hip deep in the Cruz case, but they went on to have great careers in IL GOP politics.

And this is the problem. George Ryan had to let EVERYONE off death row because he simply didn't have the time to sort through every case. And there were some folks who were on there who really deserved the death penalty. But when you have politicians who run on how many scalps they can nail to the wall, you are going to get these kinds of abuses.

 

[Gadawg73]

If people are wrongly being sent to Death Row, then they are wrongly being sent to jail for life.

It strikes me that you want to fix the symptom rather than the underlying problem, which is inept police and overzealous prosecutors.

How does your argument stack up 20 years after the conviction when they found new evidence of innocence?
The lifer IS STILL ALIVE and the other sad sack is dead.
Ask the 100s of released lifers how they feel about not facing the death penalty when DNA evidence showed them innocent and they were released.
Go to the Innocence Project and look at our work.
Real world criminal cases are not like Perry Mason re-runs, CSI and Law and Order.
Humans make mistakes and in most all cases it has absolutely nothing to do with "inept police" or "overzealous prosecutors".
On TV it always plays out that way.
Inept police never work cases good enough to prosecute for shoplifting much less a murder case.
Overzealous prosecutors? LOL, they, just like overzealous criminal defense attorneys, are the scales of justice. That is why we have JURIES.

You know what, I live in a state where they put the same guy on trial THREE TIMES when someone else confessed to the crime. He was convicted twice and sentenced to death. Finally, a judge had to put a stop to the third trial.

What the police and prosecutors did in the Hernado Cruz case shows a system that is SEVERELY broken. They didn't make "mistakes", they maliciously continued a prosecution because they just couldn't admit they got the wrong guy.

So I don't want to hear it.

There is a guy here that admits to killings in England, Canada, California and Hahira, Ga. all on the same day.
Strange hobby but folk with mental problems do such things.
And some folks believe it.

 

[Gadawg73]

If people are wrongly being sent to Death Row, then they are wrongly being sent to jail for life.

It strikes me that you want to fix the symptom rather than the underlying problem, which is inept police and overzealous prosecutors.

Joe, the sentencing phase of a criminal trial is SEPARATE from the proof of guilt phase.
They have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.

Well, um, yeah, they kind of do.

If they hadn't LIED THEIR ASSES OFF to get a conviction to start with, we'd never be talking about a penalty phase.

Again. Hernando Cruz. Convicted on a confession that police lied about, for ten years, sentenced to death TWICE despite the fact another guy, Brian Dugan, admitted he committed the crime and eventually, DNA proved it.

Then you have John Burge, who sent guys to death row after torturing confessions out of them.

Now, it would be nice if the prosecutors who went along with this SHIT paid a price, but they weren't disbarred or fired. The guy who took Burge's confessions to trial was Richard M. Daley, who went on to be mayor of Chicago for 22 years. Patrick Ryan and Joe Burkett were hip deep in the Cruz case, but they went on to have great careers in IL GOP politics.

And this is the problem. George Ryan had to let EVERYONE off death row because he simply didn't have the time to sort through every case. And there were some folks who were on there who really deserved the death penalty. But when you have politicians who run on how many scalps they can nail to the wall, you are going to get these kinds of abuses.

"They" do not sentence folks to the death penalty.
Your arguments are all over the place.

 

[JoeB131]

How does your argument stack up 20 years after the conviction when they found new evidence of innocence?
The lifer IS STILL ALIVE and the other sad sack is dead.
Ask the 100s of released lifers how they feel about not facing the death penalty when DNA evidence showed them innocent and they were released.
Go to the Innocence Project and look at our work.
Real world criminal cases are not like Perry Mason re-runs, CSI and Law and Order.
Humans make mistakes and in most all cases it has absolutely nothing to do with "inept police" or "overzealous prosecutors".
On TV it always plays out that way.
Inept police never work cases good enough to prosecute for shoplifting much less a murder case.
Overzealous prosecutors? LOL, they, just like overzealous criminal defense attorneys, are the scales of justice. That is why we have JURIES.

You know what, I live in a state where they put the same guy on trial THREE TIMES when someone else confessed to the crime. He was convicted twice and sentenced to death. Finally, a judge had to put a stop to the third trial.

What the police and prosecutors did in the Hernado Cruz case shows a system that is SEVERELY broken. They didn't make "mistakes", they maliciously continued a prosecution because they just couldn't admit they got the wrong guy.

So I don't want to hear it.

There is a guy here that admits to killings in England, Canada, California and Hahira, Ga. all on the same day.
Strange hobby but folk with mental problems do such things.
And some folks believe it.

Except that wasn't the case here.

Rolando Cruz didn't confess to anything, but the cops claimed he did, because he was a local gangbanger and he looked good for it.

Meanwhile, Brian Dugan DID confess to this murder, and he looked good for it because he was already in the can for two other murders (one of another child).

However, instead of investigating Dugan, the Police in Dupage Country kept going after Cruz and got a conviction by suppressing evidence of Dugan's confession/involvement. A judge threw that out.

They then tried to concoct some story that Dugan and Cruz were in it together, even though they were unable to prove the two men had ever even met or travelled in the same social circles. They got a second jury to buy that horseshit, and another court threw that one out.

Then they went for a third trial, but by that time, someone actually bothered to test the DNA from the crime scene, and lo and behold, it was Dugan all along. Shit, man, Scooby Fucking Doo could have figured that one out.

And this was the problem. Somewhere, someone in teh Dupage State's Attorney's office or Sheriff's department should have asked, "Hey, you think maybe we are going after the wrong guy?"

But because there were poltiicians with higher ambitions involved, nope.

All they cared about was their conviction rate. THAT'S the problem.

Oh, the prosecutors and cops were eventually prosecuted, but an all-white jury in Dupage acquitted them, and then went out and had beers with them afterwards.

 

[JoeB131]

"They" do not sentence folks to the death penalty.
Your arguments are all over the place.

Do I need to use smaller words for you?

 

[Gadawg73]

"They" do not sentence folks to the death penalty.
Your arguments are all over the place.

Do I need to use smaller words for you?

LOL, now I admit that is a good one Joe!

Specific words would be better.
Police and prosecutors do not determine guilt or innocence or sentence folk.

 

[Gadawg73]

The LEGISLATURE writes the criminal codes in each state. They WRITE the law.
All the police and prosecution do is ENFORCE the law.

 

[Bfgrn]

Law Enforcement Statement on Capital Punishment

As law enforcement officers, our primary concern is the protection of the public from crime. Punishment of offenders is a crucial element of this protection, and one which we believe is vitally important in deterring crime.

Recently, attention has focused on one form of punishment: the death penalty. As individuals, we differ widely in our belief in capital punishment. Many of us hold that the death penalty, if fairly and equitably administered, may have a role in American society. Others of us have sincere reservations about the use of this ultimate sanction.

As endorsers of this Statement, however, we share the belief that other law enforcement priorities are far more important and urgent than capital punishment. The death penalty absorbs an inordinate portion of the financial resources and valuable time of the criminal justice system. Because millions of dollars and countless hours of court time go toward the execution of a single individual, we believe that other dimensions of crime prevention are being short-changed.

In many communities, the public would be better served by measures such as the hiring of additional police officers, the implementation of community policing, drug interdiction programs, early childhood intervention programs, weapons control programs, speedier trials, or better funded probation and parole departments, than by an occasional death sentence on an isolated individual, to be carried out, if at all, only many years later. The death penalty may fascinate the media and the public, but it is truly peripheral to our efforts to make this society safer.

Too much attention on one extreme of law enforcement distracts the public from the more critical task of combating daily crime on our city's streets. State and federal legislatures spend an exorbitant amount of time debating the merits of the death penalty. The courts are burdened with lengthy death penalty trials and years of appeals. From the perspective of those of us who see crime up close on a daily basis, there are far higher priorities that deserve the public's attention and support.

We deeply understand the public's concern with the amount of random, violent crime prevalent in our society today. The solutions to this problem are not easy ones, and they require a commitment of money and resources. The sooner we order our crime prevention priorities toward solutions with proven records of effectiveness, the sooner we will be able to make a serious dent in America's crime problem.



ENDORSEMENTS

(List in formation)


Catherine M. Abate
Former Commissioner
New York City Dept. of Correction*

Gordon S. Bates
Executive Director, Connecticut Prison Association*

Donald A. Cabana
Former Warden and Commissioner of
Corrections, Mississippi*

Jo Ann D. Diamos
Former U.S. Attorney, Arizona*

Walter J. Dickey
Former Commissioner,
Wisconsin Dept. of Corrections*

Jerry J. Enomoto
Former Director,
California Dept. of Corrections*

James J. Fyfe
Former Lieutenant
New York City Police Dept.*

James M. Gamble
Administrator, Montana Dept. of Corrections *
Robert Gangi
Executive Director, Correctional Association of New York*

Patricia L. Gatling
Former President,
National Black Prosecutors Association*

John F. Gorczyk
Commissioner,
Vermont Dept. of Corrections*

Ronald E. Hampton
Director, National Black Police Association*

Thomas L. Johnson
Former Hennepin County Attorney, Minnesota*

John R. Kramer
Executive Director, Pennsylvania Commission on Sentencing*

Jennie Lancaster
Female Command Manager
North Carolina Dept. of Prisons*

William M. Leech, Jr.
Former Attorney General, Tennessee*
Sidney I. Lezak
Former U.S. Attorney, Oregon*

Elaine Little
Director, North Dakota Department of Corrections*

Terre K. Marshall
Deputy Commissioner
Connecticut Dept. of Corrections*

George N. Martin III
Regional Administrator
Former Warden
South Carolina Dept. of Corrections*

E. Michael McCann
District Attorney
Milwaukee, Wisconsin*

Patrick C. McManus
Former Secretary of Corrections, Kansas*

F. Russell Millin
Former U.S. Attorney,
Western District of Missouri*

Kathryn R. Monaco
Former Deputy Sec. for Correction, New Mexico*

Patrick V. Murphy
Former Police Commissioner New York, NY; Detroit, MI
Former Public Safety Director, Washington, DC*

Robert P. Owens
Former Chief of Police
Oxnard, California*

Orville B. Pung
Former Commissioner,
Minnesota Department of Corrections*

W. Jeff Reynolds
Former Commissioner,
Tennessee Dept. of Corrections*

Chase Riveland
Secretary, Washington Dept. of Corrections*

Larry D. Smith
Deputy Assistant Secretary of Corrections, Louisiana*

Raoul Stitt
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney,
Jackson County, Missouri*

Myra Wall
Assistant to the Secretary, Department of Corrections, Washington*

* Law Enforcement affiliation listed for identification only

 

[Katzndogz]

How many people released from prison have gone on to kill again? How many lifers have killed other inmates or guards?

Roger Coleman was long felt to be innocent of the crimes that he was executed for. Many people worked diligently before his execution and afterwards to clear his name. Only to have DNA evidence affirm his guilt.

There are thousands more innocent victims put to death by guilty criminals than innocent of crimes put to death by the judicial system. Half or more of them should be put to death as career criminals anyway.

 

[Katzndogz]

A way to alleviate the stress and expense on the system might just be to execute the obviously and known guilty immediately leaving additional processing time to those who have a basis to protest innocence.

Richard Ramirez, the Menendez boys, Roy Norris and Larry Bittaker, William Bonin (He's already dead but it took too long), we don't really need to continue to feed these guys.