Defining ourselves as "pro" or "anti"

[Coyote]

If I look at my culture - American....I find it hard to defiine something that is uniquely American in terms of culture rather than regional.

I would define American culture in ideological terms rather than in physical ones. The right to bear arms and shoot someone who interferes with one's perceived rights, comes to mind.

unfortunately...

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So no response then? Typical Zionist. It's ok it's not us who have to make the argument. Look around, mixed Americans aren't going to look kindly on racist Jews.

You hate Jews and seek to deny them the same sense of self-determination afforded any other people.

.....and in the twisted workings of your mind, that somehow makes THEM the racists here.

 

[Juicin]

So no response then? Typical Zionist. It's ok it's not us who have to make the argument. Look around, mixed Americans aren't going to look kindly on racist Jews.

You hate Jews and seek to deny them the same sense of self-determination afforded any other people.

.....and in the twisted workings of your mind, that somehow makes THEM the racists here.

How do you imagine that Jews have more right to Palestine than Palestinians is beyond me

If Jews wanted a piece of Antartica or European Jews wanted to fight Germans or Poles for land in central Europe that would make sense.

Being members of a cult doesn't entitle you to a state. I'm a Brahmin, I know about endogamy. Ashkenazi Jews have not kept their lines in tact. They have 0 claim to Palestine. They would need to have no white blood to have anything approaching the claim Palestinians do

Again the Right of Return and a Jewish State cannot coexist. European or Libyan Jews do not have a right to Palestinian land. Palestinians have a right of return

 

[Dogmaphobe]

To follow from your claims - then would that mean attempts to exclude Palestinians from being "a culture" stem from racism?

You are a complete antisemite, so ignore the fact that one group has been around 3500 years and the other 50, and that one group arose through natural processes of defining a people, whereas the other was created quite intentionally and cynically so as to fool useful idiots into thinking that the Jews were targeting the "Palestinians" instead of the reality of Arabs targeting Jews.

 

[Coyote]

So no response then? Typical Zionist. It's ok it's not us who have to make the argument. Look around, mixed Americans aren't going to look kindly on racist Jews.

You hate Jews and seek to deny them the same sense of self-determination afforded any other people.

.....and in the twisted workings of your mind, that somehow makes THEM the racists here.

How do you imagine that Jews have more right to Palestine than Palestinians is beyond me

If Jews wanted a piece of Antartica or European Jews wanted to fight Germans or Poles for land in central Europe that would make sense.

Being members of a cult doesn't entitle you to a state. I'm a Brahmin, I know about endogamy. Ashkenazi Jews have not kept their lines in tact. They have 0 claim to Palestine. They would need to have no white blood to have anything approaching the claim Palestinians do

Again the Right of Return and a Jewish State cannot coexist. European or Libyan Jews do not have a right to Palestinian land. Palestinians have a right of return

Jews ARE Palestinians. They have the same rights to the region as non-Jewish Palesetinians.

 

[Juicin]

To follow from your claims - then would that mean attempts to exclude Palestinians from being "a culture" stem from racism?

You are a complete antisemite, so ignore the fact that one group has been around 3500 years and the other 50, and that one group arose through natural processes of defining a people, whereas the other was created quite intentionally and cynically so as to fool useful idiots into thinking that the Jews were targeting the "Palestinians" instead of the reality of Arabs targeting Jews.

Such specious claims about Jewish heritage

What Jew can trace their line back 1,000 years much less 3 and a half millenia. You've lived as a minority breeding with outsiders for generation after generation. My line is 2,000 years old and my ethnic group has dominated the same piece of land for that time period. My heritage is in doubt just out fo the sheer scale of time.

Jews claims are laughable. Jews are a cult who practice endogamy not a race. If you were a race you wouldn't have been scattered across the planet for millenia breeding with others.

 

[Juicin]

So no response then? Typical Zionist. It's ok it's not us who have to make the argument. Look around, mixed Americans aren't going to look kindly on racist Jews.

You hate Jews and seek to deny them the same sense of self-determination afforded any other people.

.....and in the twisted workings of your mind, that somehow makes THEM the racists here.

How do you imagine that Jews have more right to Palestine than Palestinians is beyond me

If Jews wanted a piece of Antartica or European Jews wanted to fight Germans or Poles for land in central Europe that would make sense.

Being members of a cult doesn't entitle you to a state. I'm a Brahmin, I know about endogamy. Ashkenazi Jews have not kept their lines in tact. They have 0 claim to Palestine. They would need to have no white blood to have anything approaching the claim Palestinians do

Again the Right of Return and a Jewish State cannot coexist. European or Libyan Jews do not have a right to Palestinian land. Palestinians have a right of return

Jews ARE Palestinians. They have the same rights to the region as non-Jewish Palesetinians.

There are a couple thousand families that were there before the British came, the rest have no rights to Palestine. Now those Jews might not all be able to trace their line back to Palestine, but I think the Palestinians will get over having a small Jewish community in Jersualem. Many of them fled Christian persecution in Europe after all.

Religion is not blood. Do you know anything about endogamy? Jews live as a minority all across the planet, they are not a race. The people of caste are a race, Jews are cultists

 

[Coyote]

So Juicin....just to get back on topic. Do you consider yourself pro or anti either or both?

 

[Juicin]

I'm not sure whre you're getting that number from

We only have Ottoman tax data, which puts the number at just over 2,000 Jewish tax paying families in Jerusalem. 7,000 or so Muslim families. Along with about the same number of Christians as Jews, maybe a little less I don't remember the figures exactly

There is no way to know how many there were exactly

Obviously I'm anti zionist morally. As a descendant of Indians and Native Americans i find Zionist claims abhorrent

And from an American foreign policy perspective there is no choice between a few million Jews and a billion and a half muslims. The cold war is over we have no need for Israel with nukes to prevent a hegemon from rising up. We should cut all ties immediately and stop messing around in the former Ottoman empire for no gain

 

[Shusha]

How is saying there is not a universal Jewish culture denying them any rights?

It is used in this way by people on this board, and in the wider world. Routinely. Because Jews are just a "cult' and not a culture -- they have no rights to a national homeland. That is how the argument is used. That is the purpose of arguing for or against any peoples having a culture. You brought this up yourself some weeks ago -- that the only reason we argue about indigeneity (or culture) is to deny rights to other groups.

 

[Juicin]

How is saying there is not a universal Jewish culture denying them any rights?

It is used in this way by people on this board, and in the wider world. Routinely. Because Jews are just a "cult' and not a culture -- they have no rights to a national homeland. That is how the argument is used. That is the purpose of arguing for or against any peoples having a culture. You brought this up yourself some weeks ago -- that the only reason we argue about indigeneity (or culture) is to deny rights to other groups.

Blood gives you right to a land, and eventually time spent there

It also changes you from a cult to a race.

There are about a billion members of caste

There are 20 million Jews scattered throughout the planet with very little genetic heritage in common. Jews are not a race, they're a cult. Ashkenazi Jews have claims to Europe. Iranian Jews have claim to Iran, etc etc. Jews have the same rights to a homeland as everyone else, they need to go home where their blood belongs.

Again no Jew can trace his line back 1,000 years. Once you breed with Europeans for 10 generations you are European. Certainly not semites by blood

What Jews want is a right to a majority not a homeland, huge difference. Ashkenazi know where their homeland is, their forefathers fled it instead of fighting. I doubt Palestinians will make the same mistake.

 

[Shusha]

My argument was that religion alone isn't enough to define a culture.

Ah, now that is a different argument than the one you came up with an hour or so ago.

Okay, so lets go with that. Religion alone is not enough to define a culture.

What characteristics do the Jewish people have which are not religion (although they might be tied to the religion, which we already agreed is permissble)?

1. Language. (Boom. That alone is enough).
2. Social customs, holidays and life rituals.
3. A system of laws.
4. Cuisine.
5. Clothing traditions.
6. Myths, origins stories, legends, historical records.
7. Ties to an historical place.

I could go on, but it seems unnecessary. It seems to me that defining what is or what is not a culture is easy. You shouldn't have to try so hard. If you have to try THIS hard to come up with a workable, rational, objective definition of a culture which includes most but excludes Jews -- there is something else going on here.

 

[Coyote]

How is saying there is not a universal Jewish culture denying them any rights?

It is used in this way by people on this board, and in the wider world. Routinely. Because Jews are just a "cult' and not a culture -- they have no rights to a national homeland. That is how the argument is used. That is the purpose of arguing for or against any peoples having a culture. You brought this up yourself some weeks ago -- that the only reason we argue about indigeneity (or culture) is to deny rights to other groups.

I see indiginous and culture as seperate entities independent of each other. You don't have to have a distinct culture to be indiginous and have rights of place. I do see your point though, and agree - I can see it used in arguments to eventually deny rights.

 

[Shusha]

Once you breed with Europeans for 10 generations you are European.

Does that mean that once you breed with Arabs for 10 generations you are Arab? Goose/gander, dude.

Oh, and your comments about blood and race are vile and disgusting.

 

[Shusha]

I see indiginous and culture as seperate entities independent of each other. You don't have to have a distinct culture to be indiginous and have rights of place. I do see your point though, and agree - I can see it used in arguments to eventually deny rights.

So, again, we might have to agree to disagree. I see culture as being the defining marker of indigeneity. But I agree you don't have to have a distinct culture to necessarily have rights to a place.

But again, while I see your arguments as being consistent and reasonable -- you are the exception which proves the rule. MOST people arguing against Jewish indigeneity and culture are doing so for the express purpose of denying rights to the Jewish people. And most arguments against Jewish culture are not rational and objective.

 

[Coyote]

My argument was that religion alone isn't enough to define a culture.

Ah, now that is a different argument than the one you came up with an hour or so ago.

How?
This was what I said:
Religion: they all share the Jewish religion, though it can be argued there are diverse sects.

The definition was based on ticking all of those boxes, not just religion.

Okay, so lets go with that. Religion alone is not enough to define a culture.

What characteristics do the Jewish people have which are not religion (although they might be tied to the religion, which we already agreed is permissble)?

1. Language. (Boom. That alone is enough).
2. Social customs, holidays and life rituals.
3. A system of laws.
4. Cuisine.
5. Clothing traditions.
6. Myths, origins stories, legends, historical records.
7. Ties to an historical place.

Ok - you're using a different definition now. Though I agree, that to defines a culture.

I could go on, but it seems unnecessary. It seems to me that defining what is or what is not a culture is easy. You shouldn't have to try so hard. If you have to try THIS hard to come up with a workable, rational, objective definition of a culture which includes most but excludes Jews -- there is something else going on here.

The definition I used, and the arguments I made would EXCLUDE most, not just Jews.

 

[Coyote]

I see indiginous and culture as seperate entities independent of each other. You don't have to have a distinct culture to be indiginous and have rights of place. I do see your point though, and agree - I can see it used in arguments to eventually deny rights.

So, again, we might have to agree to disagree. I see culture as being the defining marker of indigeneity. But I agree you don't have to have a distinct culture to necessarily have rights to a place.

But again, while I see your arguments as being consistent and reasonable -- you are the exception which proves the rule. MOST people arguing against Jewish indigeneity and culture are doing so for the express purpose of denying rights to the Jewish people. And most arguments against Jewish culture are not rational and objective.

I can agree to disagree. I see indiginous as tied to place only. You do realize the same arguments against Jewish culture are also made against Palestinians?

 

[Shusha]

I can agree to disagree. I see indiginous as tied to place only. You do realize the same arguments against Jewish culture are also made against Palestinians?

One has to work much less hard to argue that Palestinian is not a culture.

The problem with indigeneity being defined by place only (residence) is that it permits conquest, invasion and ethnic cleansing to confer indigeneity. Which I think defeats the purpose.

 

[Coyote]

I can agree to disagree. I see indiginous as tied to place only. You do realize the same arguments against Jewish culture are also made against Palestinians?

One has to work much less hard to argue that Palestinian is not a culture.

The problem with indigeneity being defined by place only (residence) is that it permits conquest, invasion and ethnic cleansing to confer indigeneity. Which I think defeats the purpose.

I'm not sure...

the thing is, once you move beyond ties to place - then you start denying people who's families or people have been in a certain geographical area for a long length of time. I can see that is somehow arbritrary (length of time) but it allows for the fewest rights to be trampled, as I see it.

 

[Coyote]

Once you breed with Europeans for 10 generations you are European.

Does that mean that once you breed with Arabs for 10 generations you are Arab? Goose/gander, dude.

Oh, and your comments about blood and race are vile and disgusting.

Certainly does, but no Jew has done that, they make sure not to breed with Palestinians. All sorts of rules against it.

Edit - not a significant amount of Jews*, I'm sure there are many little mixed Ashkenazi/Palestinian babies out there

Rabbis can't be everywhere with their ledgers checking who is who now...Rather reminiscent of something

Let's not derail the thread please.