Did Jesus really exist?

[UllysesS.Archer]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

I've done extensive research on this. The Jesus that Paul popularized appears to be a composite of 12 figures. One of them was the High Priest of the Sanhedrin, a Jesus ben David, who was crucified by the Romans. This was some 300 years prior to the events of the New Testament, but it appears the basis of the crucifixion story, though the Sanhedrin were the "good guys" standing up to the invading Romans in the historical account, where Paul made them the villains.

Probably the most telling thing is that the Romans have VOLUMES of data on Paul - they REALLY didn't like him, but not a single word about Jesus. Think about this, the most litigious society up to that point, that recorded and cataloged EVERYTHING, somehow failed to mention a rabble rouser in Judea? The reality is simply, the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of Paul, the first of the great cult masters. Paul created a formula that EVERY successful cult since has followed, it is not I that is god, I am but his chosen messenger. Note that Muhammad, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Ti and Do ALL used the same formula - because it works.

Paul gathered the myths and tales, from Gnostic, mystical, and traditional sources, and created a god that he could point to as he built his empire.

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

It's not me who is telling you that, it is the evidence.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

You approach things from the idea that the Bible is literal fact, that there is no source of information other than the Bible. The problem is, this isn't true. There is a great quantity of information availible - it simply doesn't support the New Testament accounts.

 

[Uncensored2008]

God's Word IS ALL ETERNAL LIVING TRUTH Not just a book.==In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:1-5

Of course Gizzy Sock...

 

[amrchaos]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.

Eleven different appearances of our risen Lord are recorded in the New Testament…
To Mary Magdalene at the sepulchre alone. This is recorded at length only by John (20:11-18), and alluded to by Mark (16:9-11).
To certain women, "the other Mary," Salome, Joanna, and others, as they returned from the sepulchre. Matthew (28:1-10) alone gives an account of this. (Compare Mark 16:1-8, and Luke 24:1-11.)
To Simon Peter alone on the day of the resurrection. (See Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15:5.)
To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus on the day of the resurrection, recorded fully only by Luke (24:13-35. Compare Mark 16:12,13).
To the ten disciples (Thomas being absent) and others "with them," at Jerusalem on the evening of the resurrection day. One of the evangelists gives an account of this appearance, John (20:19-24).
To the disciples again (Thomas being present) at Jerusalem (Mark 16:14-18; Luke 24:33-40; John 20:26-28. See also 1 Cor. 15:5).
To the disciples when fishing at the Sea of Galilee. Of this appearance also John (21:1-23) alone gives an account.
To the eleven, and above 500 brethren at once, at an appointed place in Galilee (1 Cor. 15:6; compare Matt. 28:16-20).
To James, but under what circumstances we are not informed (1 Cor. 15:7).
To the apostles immediately before the ascension. They accompanied him from Jerusalem to Mount Olivet, and there they saw him ascend "till a cloud received him out of their sight" (Mark 16:19; Luke 24:50-52; Acts 1:4-10).
It is worthy of note that it is distinctly related that on most of these occasions our Lord afforded his disciples the amplest opportunity of testing the fact of his resurrection. He conversed with them face to face. They touched him (Matt. 28:9; Luke 24:39; John 20:27), and he ate bread with them (Luke 24:42,43; John 21:12,13).
In addition to the above, mention might be made of Christ's manifestation of himself to Paul at Damascus, who speaks of it as an appearance of the risen Savior (Acts 9:3-9, 17; 1 Cor. 15:8; 9:1).
It is implied in the words of Luke (Acts 1:3) that there may have been other appearances of which we have no record

Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

You do know that there were more people willing to die at Jonestown where many thought Jim Jones was Jesus reincarnate, right.

I don't think the fact that people are willing to die for a belief makes the belief true. If anything, it shows how much they are willing to stand up for that belief regardless if that belief was actually true or not.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

It's not me who is telling you that, it is the evidence.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

You approach things from the idea that the Bible is literal fact, that there is no source of information other than the Bible. The problem is, this isn't true. There is a great quantity of information availible - it simply doesn't support the New Testament accounts.

To me, the Bible is literal fact.

Yes, there are many more sources of information, and if you notice, they all want to contradict each other. It just depends on which one you choose to believe, for whatever reasoning you have. There are a great many that will support the NT account, and just as many that will not support it.

All we know, for a certainty, is that Paul's tomb was checked in 2009, and the man there was ruled martyred, by the Catholic Church(Please note, I have no confidence at all in the Catholic Church). Other than that, it's pretty much speculation, that is why it is called 'faith'.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.

Eleven different appearances of our risen Lord are recorded in the New Testament…
To Mary Magdalene at the sepulchre alone. This is recorded at length only by John (20:11-18), and alluded to by Mark (16:9-11).
To certain women, "the other Mary," Salome, Joanna, and others, as they returned from the sepulchre. Matthew (28:1-10) alone gives an account of this. (Compare Mark 16:1-8, and Luke 24:1-11.)
To Simon Peter alone on the day of the resurrection. (See Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15:5.)
To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus on the day of the resurrection, recorded fully only by Luke (24:13-35. Compare Mark 16:12,13).
To the ten disciples (Thomas being absent) and others "with them," at Jerusalem on the evening of the resurrection day. One of the evangelists gives an account of this appearance, John (20:19-24).
To the disciples again (Thomas being present) at Jerusalem (Mark 16:14-18; Luke 24:33-40; John 20:26-28. See also 1 Cor. 15:5).
To the disciples when fishing at the Sea of Galilee. Of this appearance also John (21:1-23) alone gives an account.
To the eleven, and above 500 brethren at once, at an appointed place in Galilee (1 Cor. 15:6; compare Matt. 28:16-20).
To James, but under what circumstances we are not informed (1 Cor. 15:7).
To the apostles immediately before the ascension. They accompanied him from Jerusalem to Mount Olivet, and there they saw him ascend "till a cloud received him out of their sight" (Mark 16:19; Luke 24:50-52; Acts 1:4-10).
It is worthy of note that it is distinctly related that on most of these occasions our Lord afforded his disciples the amplest opportunity of testing the fact of his resurrection. He conversed with them face to face. They touched him (Matt. 28:9; Luke 24:39; John 20:27), and he ate bread with them (Luke 24:42,43; John 21:12,13).
In addition to the above, mention might be made of Christ's manifestation of himself to Paul at Damascus, who speaks of it as an appearance of the risen Savior (Acts 9:3-9, 17; 1 Cor. 15:8; 9:1).
It is implied in the words of Luke (Acts 1:3) that there may have been other appearances of which we have no record

Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

You do know that there were more people willing to die at Jonestown where many thought Jim Jones was Jesus reincarnate, right.

I don't think the fact that people are willing to die for a belief makes the belief true. If anything, it shows how much they are willing to stand up for that belief regardless if that belief was actually true or not.

When someone has a gun on you and your family, and says 'drink this or die', you probably gonna drink this. How many of those people figured out to late that Jim Jones was a lunatic? They didn't have a lifetime to think about it.

And there are many people who will die for what they believe to be true. But, find me one person ever, who knew they died for a lie.

 

[amrchaos]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.

Eleven different appearances of our risen Lord are recorded in the New Testament…
To Mary Magdalene at the sepulchre alone. This is recorded at length only by John (20:11-18), and alluded to by Mark (16:9-11).
To certain women, "the other Mary," Salome, Joanna, and others, as they returned from the sepulchre. Matthew (28:1-10) alone gives an account of this. (Compare Mark 16:1-8, and Luke 24:1-11.)
To Simon Peter alone on the day of the resurrection. (See Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15:5.)
To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus on the day of the resurrection, recorded fully only by Luke (24:13-35. Compare Mark 16:12,13).
To the ten disciples (Thomas being absent) and others "with them," at Jerusalem on the evening of the resurrection day. One of the evangelists gives an account of this appearance, John (20:19-24).
To the disciples again (Thomas being present) at Jerusalem (Mark 16:14-18; Luke 24:33-40; John 20:26-28. See also 1 Cor. 15:5).
To the disciples when fishing at the Sea of Galilee. Of this appearance also John (21:1-23) alone gives an account.
To the eleven, and above 500 brethren at once, at an appointed place in Galilee (1 Cor. 15:6; compare Matt. 28:16-20).
To James, but under what circumstances we are not informed (1 Cor. 15:7).
To the apostles immediately before the ascension. They accompanied him from Jerusalem to Mount Olivet, and there they saw him ascend "till a cloud received him out of their sight" (Mark 16:19; Luke 24:50-52; Acts 1:4-10).
It is worthy of note that it is distinctly related that on most of these occasions our Lord afforded his disciples the amplest opportunity of testing the fact of his resurrection. He conversed with them face to face. They touched him (Matt. 28:9; Luke 24:39; John 20:27), and he ate bread with them (Luke 24:42,43; John 21:12,13).
In addition to the above, mention might be made of Christ's manifestation of himself to Paul at Damascus, who speaks of it as an appearance of the risen Savior (Acts 9:3-9, 17; 1 Cor. 15:8; 9:1).
It is implied in the words of Luke (Acts 1:3) that there may have been other appearances of which we have no record

Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

You do know that there were more people willing to die at Jonestown where many thought Jim Jones was Jesus reincarnate, right.

I don't think the fact that people are willing to die for a belief makes the belief true. If anything, it shows how much they are willing to stand up for that belief regardless if that belief was actually true or not.

When someone has a gun on you and your family, and says 'drink this or die', you probably gonna drink this. How many of those people figured out to late that Jim Jones was a lunatic? They didn't have a lifetime to think about it.

And there are many people who will die for what they believe to be true. But, find me one person ever, who knew they died for a lie.

First thing first
Not everyone was forced t drink the kool-aid at gun point. Only those that refused to drink was forced by gun point and many of them were shot.
I am not talking about the skeptics at Jonestown, I am talking about the true believers.

Second, I didn't say they believed in a lie. I suggested that people will die for a belief. Now if that belief is actually true or not is irrelevant, what matter is that they were willing to stand up for that belief and give their lives.

Understand the difference. I did not say they died for a belief they knew was a lie(It would be pretty difficult to keep that belief in the first place). I said they died for something they thought was true regardless of it actually being true or false. What was actual is something these martyrs may not have known.

The same is true for suicide cults as well. Those people are not killing themselves for a lie they. They are killing themselves for something they think is true, regardless if their belief is actually true or not.

Killing or dying for a belief is not proof that the belief is actually true. The martyr may believe it is true, but martyrdom is not proof that the belief is true

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Only a demon inspired tool of satan would ask such a foolish question.

And only actual demons talk as much about hell as you do.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I feel sure that Jesus lived, but I suspect that if he came back, he would be bewildered as to who that blue eyed, red haired Anglo-Saxon guy is that is in that picture that is hanging on walls all over America with his name on it.

 

[guno]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

"ancient cultures around the Mediterranean shared standard ideas about Gods and their powers and place in the universe—and that Christianity simply adopted those ideas and applied them to Jesus. Ancient people knew godmen did miracles. The first Christians thought Jesus was a godman, so they told stories about Jesus doing miracles. They even had Him doing the same miracles as the other godmen."

POCM Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

 

[Vandalshandle]

Only a demon inspired tool of satan would ask such a foolish question.

I owned a Dodge Demon back in 1971, and I will admit that it inspired me to say many things that I would not repeat here.

 

[guno]

On another thread, I made the statement that Jesus was a made up character.

Here's why I think he was.

1) The Gospels were written years after his supposed life, and they contradict each other on key points.

2) He is not mentioned by a lot of contemporary writers who should have noticed him.

3) He shares a lot of traits with other mythological figures.

I've done extensive research on this. The Jesus that Paul popularized appears to be a composite of 12 figures. One of them was the High Priest of the Sanhedrin, a Jesus ben David, who was crucified by the Romans. This was some 300 years prior to the events of the New Testament, but it appears the basis of the crucifixion story, though the Sanhedrin were the "good guys" standing up to the invading Romans in the historical account, where Paul made them the villains.

Probably the most telling thing is that the Romans have VOLUMES of data on Paul - they REALLY didn't like him, but not a single word about Jesus. Think about this, the most litigious society up to that point, that recorded and cataloged EVERYTHING, somehow failed to mention a rabble rouser in Judea? The reality is simply, the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of Paul, the first of the great cult masters. Paul created a formula that EVERY successful cult since has followed, it is not I that is god, I am but his chosen messenger. Note that Muhammad, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Ti and Do ALL used the same formula - because it works.

Paul gathered the myths and tales, from Gnostic, mystical, and traditional sources, and created a god that he could point to as he built his empire.

LOL!!! You need do a lot more research and stop believing satan's lies. Your eternity is at stake!

gee gizmo joined another one of your socks today

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I feel sure that Jesus lived, but I suspect that if he came back, he would be bewildered as to who that blue eyed, red haired Anglo-Saxon guy is that is in that picture that is hanging on walls all over America with his name on it.

Thinking of Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" show I'd love to see a jive-talking Jesus if only for the amusement I'd get watching people freak the heck out.

"A black man can steal your stereo, but not be your Lord and Savior." - Chris Rock, "Dogma"

 

[guno]

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

It's not me who is telling you that, it is the evidence.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

You approach things from the idea that the Bible is literal fact, that there is no source of information other than the Bible. The problem is, this isn't true. There is a great quantity of information availible - it simply doesn't support the New Testament accounts.

It is really sad in this day and age you have people believing it's true , bowing down to statues, eating cookies they think becomes a their godman when eaten or twitching and rolling on the floor or talking gibberish (tongues)

 

[MaxGrit]

And only actual demons talk as much about hell as you do.

Actual demons talk about hell how much?

 

[guno]

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

It's not me who is telling you that, it is the evidence.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

You approach things from the idea that the Bible is literal fact, that there is no source of information other than the Bible. The problem is, this isn't true. There is a great quantity of information availible - it simply doesn't support the New Testament accounts.

It is really sad in this day and age you have people believing it's true , bowing down to statues, eating cookies they think becomes a their godman when eaten or twitching and rolling on the floor or talking gibberish (tongues)

 

[guno]

Wow, Paul sure had me fooled.

He was born a Jew, a Pharisee, thus a leader of the Jews, and now you are telling me that Saul threw that all away, so that he could make tons of money.

It's not me who is telling you that, it is the evidence.

Nevermind the fact, that Paul was martyred, spent years locked up in jail, was beaten, battered and bruised for his Ministry.

Looks to me like, he gave up the good life, for a horrible existence, much like a millionaire giving up his fortune, to live life as a homeless man.

But, you keep on trying to fool yourself, deep down, you really know the truth, you just can't handle the truth, huh?

You approach things from the idea that the Bible is literal fact, that there is no source of information other than the Bible. The problem is, this isn't true. There is a great quantity of information availible - it simply doesn't support the New Testament accounts.

It is really sad in this day and age you have people believing it's true , bowing down to statues, eating cookies they think becomes a their godman when eaten or twitching and rolling on the floor or talking gibberish (tongues)

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Actual demons talk about hell how much?

Makusatsu because I believe you can do better.

 

[Disir]

There were NO contemporary witnesses. There were NO eye witnesses period.

I, and many billions more would disagree with that statement.

Eleven different appearances of our risen Lord are recorded in the New Testament…
To Mary Magdalene at the sepulchre alone. This is recorded at length only by John (20:11-18), and alluded to by Mark (16:9-11).
To certain women, "the other Mary," Salome, Joanna, and others, as they returned from the sepulchre. Matthew (28:1-10) alone gives an account of this. (Compare Mark 16:1-8, and Luke 24:1-11.)
To Simon Peter alone on the day of the resurrection. (See Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15:5.)
To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus on the day of the resurrection, recorded fully only by Luke (24:13-35. Compare Mark 16:12,13).
To the ten disciples (Thomas being absent) and others "with them," at Jerusalem on the evening of the resurrection day. One of the evangelists gives an account of this appearance, John (20:19-24).
To the disciples again (Thomas being present) at Jerusalem (Mark 16:14-18; Luke 24:33-40; John 20:26-28. See also 1 Cor. 15:5).
To the disciples when fishing at the Sea of Galilee. Of this appearance also John (21:1-23) alone gives an account.
To the eleven, and above 500 brethren at once, at an appointed place in Galilee (1 Cor. 15:6; compare Matt. 28:16-20).
To James, but under what circumstances we are not informed (1 Cor. 15:7).
To the apostles immediately before the ascension. They accompanied him from Jerusalem to Mount Olivet, and there they saw him ascend "till a cloud received him out of their sight" (Mark 16:19; Luke 24:50-52; Acts 1:4-10).
It is worthy of note that it is distinctly related that on most of these occasions our Lord afforded his disciples the amplest opportunity of testing the fact of his resurrection. He conversed with them face to face. They touched him (Matt. 28:9; Luke 24:39; John 20:27), and he ate bread with them (Luke 24:42,43; John 21:12,13).
In addition to the above, mention might be made of Christ's manifestation of himself to Paul at Damascus, who speaks of it as an appearance of the risen Savior (Acts 9:3-9, 17; 1 Cor. 15:8; 9:1).
It is implied in the words of Luke (Acts 1:3) that there may have been other appearances of which we have no record

Most of those listed above, were murdered/martyred proclaiming Jesus is the Risen Lord.

If you could find just 1 person who was willing to die for you(no kin folks), then you have a truly blessed life.But, to have more than a dozen people, go their separate ways, preach the Gospel, and then, basically at knife point, be forced to recant, or die, and they all choose to die, as opposed to betraying the Person, they consider to be the Lord.

Yeah, there were plenty of eye witnesses, and since the Gospels have survived more than 2 millennia now, i'll take that, as the Word of God.

There were no eye witnesses. JC doesn't care enough to leave anything written. Nobody else cares enough to take notes. Paul meets Jesus in a dream. 1Corinthians 15:3-8

1.JC is allegedly born in 5 CE and dies in 30-35 CE.
2. The first of Paul's writings surfaces in 55 CE. Note the time difference between the alleged death and the writing.
3. The Gospel attributed to Mark is written in 70 CE. Note the time difference between the alleged death and the writing.
4. The Gospel attributed to John is written in 90-95 CE.
5. The Gospel attributed to Luke (or Luke-Acts) is written at approximately 100 CE.
6. Matthew slides in as late as 110 CE.

What you do have is a Jewish War between 66 CE and 70 CE. Hence, those four gospels are referred to as Wartime literature.

It's not until Irenaeus gets highly tweaked and decides that he is going to be the authority that these four are picked out. It's a pure power grab. Now your at 180 CE to 200 CE.

A dream is not a fact.

 

[JoeB131]

[Q.


Wrong and stupid with stupid holding a large edge.

He's mentioned by at least 2 contemporaneous Roman writers

Which two? And do you actually understand what "contemporaneous" means?