Dissecting John Stossel's Anti-Communist Lies

[Leo123]

That's not exactly true, Leo.

Maude staff technically run this place.

Admins abandoned the place a long time ago.

You do have long-standing senior maude staff here who openly and unapologetically profess to be trustees and proponents in Marx's ideology of ''from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

While that's certainly a bit of a (humorous) conflict of interest given the platform is considered private property, I've asked that question directly on the open board.

The Forum solicits donations but makes money from advertising and that is capitalistic.

 

[Red Front]

In every dorm room BS session I've ever attended -- or their adult equivalent -- someone invariably brings up the utopian society of "Star Trek". Roddenberry came up with the idea that his fictional space-faring society would be beyond such things as money and Capitalism and focus on the development of the self. A fine notion, if not well explained as to how it works.

We can only get an insight into the workings of Roddenberry's utopian ideal from what he actually wrote into his series... for example.

In the TOS/TNG canon, Star Fleet is an elitist group that regularly decides planetary policy (despite being an unelected body) and withholds technology from others. Far from being "a group dedicated to the exploration of space", Star Fleet spends very little time actually exploring. Whenever they go "where no man has gone before", someone is invariably waiting for them.

When Star Fleet does come across an unknown phenomenon, it is typically by accident.

Star Fleet is very competitive. Only the most highly driven individuals can gain admittance to the academy and even then, social skills and your ability to ingratiate yourself with higher ups, not your abilities, are your only paths to promotion. Far from being a place for individual development, Star Fleet is a regimented society of souless automatons who believe only in "The Starfleet Way". Reginald Barkley is a highly competent, some claim genius level lower officer in Star Fleet. But, his social inabilities preclude anyone from wanting to work with him and he is barred from promotion. Even a genius like Wesley Crusher who is not only smarter than his fellow cadets but has significantly more experience with Star Fleet is unable to cope with the social aspects of Star Fleet Academy and does eventually resign.

Star Fleet's primary law, "The Prime Directive" (a law they frequently break for convenience's sake) prohibits Star Fleet from providing technology to civilizations that might provide competition to an already resource scarce Federation of Planets, even when that technology may save an entire civilization.

Star Fleet may operate on the principle of "No Capitalism", but the rest of the galaxy clearly does not. Star Fleet fights wars (in the name of The Earth) against other races for both territory and resources. So, despite replicator technology and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of natural resources, space faring races must continue to fight over them. Even in their own society, Star Fleet must deal with Capitalist miners for dilithium crystals and other necessities that they are unable to produce themselves. In the TOS/TNG universe, Star Fleet is constantly plying between plants for "trade negotiations", implying these planets do not live under post-scarcity Socialism but are free-dealing Capitalists.

The DSN/VOY canon further elaborate on this by showing Star Fleet operating among worlds where Capitalism is the only form of economic system and Star Fleet will regularly begin to trade with them.

The point is that, when technology permits us to automate production without or with little human supervision, that's the end of capitalism. You're not dumb, think. According to Marx, the only way that socialism and later communism will be adopted by society is when material conditions permit it. There might be attempts to establish a socialist or communist society at a national scale before conditions are ideal for it, but if such attempts fail that doesn't necessarily imply that socialism and communism will never work. It might have not worked in the past under certain circumstances, due to material conditions, geopolitics..etc, but it might very well work beautifully when the material conditions for its success are present.

Since when does an economic system or mode of production have to work all of the time, under all conditions? Why do the defenders of capitalism resort to these types of arguments? Did capitalism replace slavery and feudalism overnight? For centuries, at least from the mid-1500s, the merchant class with its fleets of ships and armies was in competition with the kings and nobles.

They were under the authority of monarchs and nobles until material conditions permitted them to assert their interests and liberties in the form of constitutions, parliaments, Republicanism, and privately owned business enterprises with an immense amount of resources and power, rivaling that of the kings and feudal lords. The industrialist class was born from the earlier capitalist mercantile classes.

In the future, our need for socialism and communism will become crystal clear when technology significantly or completely replaces wage labor. Adopting socialism doesn't equate to authoritarianism or autocracy, we can have democratic socialism and communism. The people hold the power, rather than a few billionaires who will own all of the technology, reducing 95%+ of the population to compost. Technology will replace wage labor, not because I say it, but because it's a brute fact. The pursuit of efficiency in production leads to automation and hence a loss of jobs. No jobs, or not enough of them, equates to a catastrophic crisis requiring a monthly government bailout called a "Universal Basic Income", in order to keep capitalism on life support. They artificially create paying consumers in order to maintain the market and continue making money. This leads to feudalism and slavery.

In modern socialism, we all own the technology, facilities, machinery, robots..etc (i.e. means of production), together, as a community. We then organize production, with all of its logistics, and accounting, using the best computer systems and data-gathering tools, to tell us exactly how many products we need to produce with the robots.etc. Each member of society that is able to work, works 20 hours weekly, five days a week, supervising the system, and we all enjoy a very high standard of living. The alternative is everybody is a serf or slave to the billionaires who own everything. Techno-feudalism. I prefer modern, democratic socialism, where we all own the technology and means of production together.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your questions are full of false assumptions. The USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which included Ukraine, and when it collapsed in 1991, after several years of Perestroika in the 1980s, Ukraine became an independent state. Yeah? Like what's the point?

You critique socialism in the USSR as if it its failures were exclusively due to some supposed inherent flaw in the system and that's where you're wrong. You fail to factor in the many obstacles and challenges forced upon the USSR and other socialist-run economies by the United States and its allies. The United States and other capitalist powers encircled communist Russia and did everything possible to destroy it. The US even invaded it in 1918 with 14 other nations. The Germans later invaded it with four million soldiers in 1941, under Operation Barbarossa. The Soviets lost nine million soldiers fighting Nazi Germany and 17 million civilians. Comparably, the United States lost 480 thousand people. The US wasn't invaded.

You also disingenuously ignore the fact that the USSR started out as a poor, under-industrialized agrarian society comprised of peasants in the early 20th century with an 87% illiteracy rate. In a little over 20 years, Russia became an industrial juggernaut rivaling the United States and Western Europe. Its ascendency was noticed, respected, and even praised by many American economists and experts. During the American great depression, thousands of American engineers and scientists moved to Soviet Russia and contributed to its development. Both Russian and Western engineers and scientists were gradually transforming Soviet Russia into a superpower, a nation that began just twenty years earlier.

Then it was invaded by four million Nazis. After WW2, the Soviets had to start again, in many ways, from scratch. By the late 1950s, the USSR was a world superpower rivaling the US in every way (economically, militarily, and technologically). The USSR was launching satellites and people into space before we were here in the US. This was after the devastation of WW2, when they lost most of their industrial base and had to rebuild. The history of the USSR doesn't undermine the claims of socialism, on the contrary, it solidifies and impressively validates them. The only way capitalism beats socialism is through sabotage, sanctions, embargoes, bombs, bullets..etc. This only works in the beginning but in the end, socialism will win.


The current conflict in Ukraine is due to the US expanding NATO into Eastern Europe and co-opting the Ukrainian maidan protests of 2014, which ousted Viktor Yanukovych the democratically elected president of Ukraine, who was friendly with Russia, with Petro Poroshenko, an ultra-nationalist/neo-nazi sympathizer who hates everything Russian. Why should the Russo-Ukrainians of the Donbas accept the authority of an American puppet regime in Kyiv that wants to eliminate the Russian language and every other vestige of Russian culture and history from Ukraine? The Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity in both Crimea and the Donbas decided to reject the coup regime and become part of Russia. Crimea and the Donbas are now part of Russia.

The Ukrainians signed on to the Minsk-2 agreements of 2015, then refused to implement it, continuing to shell civilians in the Donbas. So now Russia is going to fully resolve the problem with an all-out invasion of Ukraine. Putin is no longer fighting Ukraine with gloves on, trying to accomplish his objectives with as little damage to Ukraine's infrastructure as possible. What we are about to see now isn't just a "military operation" designed to take control of the Donbas. What we're going to witness now is an all-out war, with at least 400 thousand Russians invading much of Ukraine. The Ukrainian leadership is now going to be targeted and so is all of the nation's infrastructure. Now you're really going to see Russia at war.

The USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which included Ukraine, and when it collapsed in 1991,

Collapsed? Was that because socialism was better?

You critique socialism in the USSR as if it its failures were exclusively due to some supposed inherent flaw in the system and that's where you're wrong.

It wasn't exclusively due to the flaws. But the flaws sure didn't help, eh?

The United States and other capitalist powers encircled communist Russia and did everything possible to destroy it.

Socialism can never be stopped by capitalism. Right?

In a little over 20 years, Russia became an industrial juggernaut rivaling the United States and Western Europe.

In 1938, they were still a poor, backward country. In 1990, they were still a poor, backward country. In 2022, they're still a poor, backward country.

I'm noticing a pattern. Are you?

The history of the USSR doesn't undermine the claims of socialism

In 1945, they enslaved half of Europe. Now the formerly enslaved countries are free.
With larger GDP per capita than Russia. Does that undermine the claims of socialism?

The only way capitalism beats socialism is through sabotage, sanctions, embargoes, bombs, bullets..etc.

You left out freedom and innovation. So why did the Berlin Wall get built?
To stop the West Germans from enjoying all that groovy socialism?
How many West Germans were killed trying to escape capitalism?
How many East Germans were killed trying to escape socialism?

The current conflict in Ukraine is due to the US expanding NATO into Eastern Europe

For some reason, Eastern Europe doesn't trust Russia. Weird.

Why should the Russo-Ukrainians of the Donbas accept the authority of an American puppet regime in Kyiv that wants to eliminate the Russian language and every other vestige of Russian culture and history from Ukraine?

Exactly!!! They should move to Russia. The largest and bestest country on Earth.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

This dopey OP has absolutely no grasp on logic, history, or reality itself.

Just like Marx!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The point is that, when technology permits us to automate production without or with little human supervision, that's the end of capitalism. You're not dumb, think. According to Marx, the only way that socialism and later communism will be adopted by society is when material conditions permit it. There might be attempts to establish a socialist or communist society at a national scale before conditions are ideal for it, but if such attempts fail that doesn't necessarily imply that socialism and communism will never work. It might have not worked in the past under certain circumstances, due to material conditions, geopolitics..etc, but it might very well work beautifully when the material conditions for its success are present.

Since when does an economic system or mode of production have to work all of the time, under all conditions? Why do the defenders of capitalism resort to these types of arguments? Did capitalism replace slavery and feudalism overnight? For centuries, at least from the mid-1500s, the merchant class with its fleets of ships and armies was in competition with the kings and nobles.

They were under the authority of monarchs and nobles until material conditions permitted them to assert their interests and liberties in the form of constitutions, parliaments, Republicanism, and privately owned business enterprises with an immense amount of resources and power, rivaling that of the kings and feudal lords. The industrialist class was born from the earlier capitalist mercantile classes.

In the future, our need for socialism and communism will become crystal clear when technology significantly or completely replaces wage labor. Adopting socialism doesn't equate to authoritarianism or autocracy, we can have democratic socialism and communism. The people hold the power, rather than a few billionaires who will own all of the technology, reducing 95%+ of the population to compost. Technology will replace wage labor, not because I say it, but because it's a brute fact. The pursuit of efficiency in production leads to automation and hence a loss of jobs. No jobs, or not enough of them, equates to a catastrophic crisis requiring a monthly government bailout called a "Universal Basic Income", in order to keep capitalism on life support. They artificially create paying consumers in order to maintain the market and continue making money. This leads to feudalism and slavery.

In modern socialism, we all own the technology, facilities, machinery, robots..etc (i.e. means of production), together, as a community. We then organize production, with all of its logistics, and accounting, using the best computer systems and data-gathering tools, to tell us exactly how many products we need to produce with the robots.etc. Each member of society that is able to work, works 20 hours daily, five days a week, supervising the system, and we all enjoy a very high standard of living. The alternative is everybody is a serf or slave to the billionaires who own everything. Techno-feudalism. I prefer modern, democratic socialism, where we all own the technology and means of production together.

Each member of society that is able to work, works 20 hours daily, five days a week,

20 hours a day? Sounds like slavery.

 

[Red Front]

I guess you don't think of labor camps as slavery. Every country controlled by communist had millions of people in forced labor.

Every country whether socialist or not has its gulags. Have you ever visited a jail or prison here in the United States? They're horrible. Many prisons here in the United States pay their inmates' twenty-five cents an hour, manufacturing products for private companies. The Russian gulag had a sentence maximum of ten years, whereas today in 2022, in many American prisons there are convicts serving 1200-year sentences. Are you aware of that?

You want to play the "uuuuu you people are so bad, so violent, so bad uuuuu bad, we are angels, we have halos glowing our heads in capitalism but you socialists uuuuuuu, uuuuuuu, so bad so bad".......Give it a rest. I'm an American communist, not a Russian or Chinese communist. Socialism in America will have American characteristics. American communists will always remain armed to the teeth, with combat rifles, and ammunition. American communists will always have oversight and control over their government through the people's councils, which is a much more effective democratic tool than elections every two or four years. You elect your government officials through the councils and can recall them, immediately replacing them.

Hands down, the socialist system of democracy, as described by Marx and Lenin grants us more power and freedom.

 

[Red Front]

Each member of society that is able to work, works 20 hours daily, five days a week,

20 hours a day? Sounds like slavery.

I meant 20 hours a week. Thanks for catching that. Typo.

 

[Unkotare]

Every country whether socialist or not has its gulags. Have you ever visited a jail or prison here in the United States? ....

Where people go because they broke the law, not because they were suspected of having unapproved political views or were members of a minority population that the commies were afraid of.

You would have loved fdr.

 

[Red Front]

View attachment 723906

In the last 170 years, it's always been that way. The right-wingers initiate the violence and the socialists simply defend themselves. If you look at every single revolution with few exceptions, that involved socialists, it was after the right-wingers started killing peaceful, socialist activists like myself. Threatening me and my comrades with violence just demonstrates how bankrupt you are ideologically, not being able to defend it with a good rational argument. All you have are insults and violence.

 

[eagle7-31]

​

Stossel Comes from Long Island, where he's a social butterfly. For all his "capitalism" hot air, when his 2.5 Mil Hamptons mansion was blown away years ago, he had no problem getting Gov't agencies to pay for the loss. Some say, he was "underinsured". He's the ultimate 'Bankster': "Socialism for me, capitalism for the peasants".

Gee another brain dead troll.

 

[BothWings]

Not even close.

You need to learn a lot more about history and feudalism

Nope. It's very much similar Just a "kinder gentler machine gun hand". You just need to learn not to be fooled by the changing face of bullshit.

 

[Red Front]

Where people go because they broke the law, not because they were suspected of having unapproved political views or were members of a minority population that the commies were afraid of.

You would have loved fdr.

That's just cheap rhetoric. Polemics. Guantanamo is a place where people go who haven't even been charged officially with a crime. If the US empire suspects you of being an enemy, they will send you there. There are plenty of people in American prisons due to their race, and bad laws that shouldn't even be on the books. The whole "war on drugs" is racist:

​

Native Americans were wiped out by white settlers.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Nope. It's very much similar Just a "kinder gentler machine gun hand". You just need to learn not to be fooled by the changing face of bullshit.

It is not remotely similar once again you are confused and ignorant about the terms you are using

 

[Unkotare]

... There are plenty of people in American prisons due to their race...


...

Not since fdr.

 

[Unkotare]

China’s Repression of Uyghurs in Xinjiang

More than a million Muslims have been arbitrarily detained in China’s Xinjiang region. The reeducation camps are just one part of the government’s crackdown on Uyghurs.

www.cfr.org

 

[Unkotare]

...


Native Americans were wiped out by white settlers.

There are 7 million Native Americans in the US, dumbass.

 

[Unkotare]

.... Guantanamo is a place where people go who haven't even been charged officially with a crime....

Terrorists who don't fall under US jurisdiction.

 

[Red Front]

The USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which included Ukraine, and when it collapsed in 1991,

Collapsed? Was that because socialism was better?

You critique socialism in the USSR as if it its failures were exclusively due to some supposed inherent flaw in the system and that's where you're wrong.

It wasn't exclusively due to the flaws. But the flaws sure didn't help, eh?

The United States and other capitalist powers encircled communist Russia and did everything possible to destroy it.

Socialism can never be stopped by capitalism. Right?

In a little over 20 years, Russia became an industrial juggernaut rivaling the United States and Western Europe.

In 1938, they were still a poor, backward country. In 1990, they were still a poor, backward country. In 2022, they're still a poor, backward country.

I'm noticing a pattern. Are you?

The history of the USSR doesn't undermine the claims of socialism

In 1945, they enslaved half of Europe. Now the formerly enslaved countries are free.
With larger GDP per capita than Russia. Does that undermine the claims of socialism?

The only way capitalism beats socialism is through sabotage, sanctions, embargoes, bombs, bullets..etc.

You left out freedom and innovation. So why did the Berlin Wall get built?
To stop the West Germans from enjoying all that groovy socialism?
How many West Germans were killed trying to escape capitalism?
How many East Germans were killed trying to escape socialism?

The current conflict in Ukraine is due to the US expanding NATO into Eastern Europe

For some reason, Eastern Europe doesn't trust Russia. Weird.

Why should the Russo-Ukrainians of the Donbas accept the authority of an American puppet regime in Kyiv that wants to eliminate the Russian language and every other vestige of Russian culture and history from Ukraine?

Exactly!!! They should move to Russia. The largest and bestest country on Earth.

In 1938 Soviet Russia wasn't poor and backward, it was actually quite developed, especially when compared to how it began approximately 20 years earlier under capitalism. Why should the people of the Donbas and Crimea move to Russia, leaving their homes and lands behind? You're not making any sense. If the Russian-hating Western Ukrainians decide to carry out a coup to take the power of the government and then engage in a campaign to eliminate ethnic Russians from the Donbas and Crimea, they deserve nothing but war. They're the ones unwilling to peacefully co-exist with Russo-Ukrainians, hence the people of Eastern Ukraine have the right to defend themselves.

The Berlin wall was in East Germany. All of Berlin was in East Germany, so there were several reasons for the wall. The defenders of capitalism and the West during the cold war don't have much moral high ground to stand on in view of the economic sanctions they imposed on East Germany and the USSR, and the wars they started against socialist countries. More, the fact that socialism didn't replace capitalism in the 20th century is irrelevant, because no one ever claimed that socialism has to replace capitalism immediately. It can take decades, centuries, just as capitalism took centuries to replace chattel slavery and feudalism. The kings and nobles of Europe weren't replaced by industrialists and republics until the material conditions were present for that to occur.

All of your arguments are flawed.

 

[BothWings]

It is not remotely similar once again you are confused and ignorant about the terms you are using

No, sorry. You are. It's ok though. I realize I can't fix stupid.

 

[Red Front]

There are 7 million Native Americans in the US, dumbass.

There would be 90 million or more if not for the genocidal campaigns of the 18th and 19th centuries to dispossess them of their lands. Tens of millions of Native Americans died both in North America and Central and South America, due to European colonization.