Do our rights come from nature and God as Paul Ryan says?

[JakeStarkey]

All Americans are equal, but far right extremist Americans are more equal?

NYcarbineer

Are human sexual rights inalienable? Are they God given, or natural?

I don't believe in Magic Sky Fairies so that's not even part of the equation. Those who do believe in a "god" would have no choice to believe that sexual rights are bestowed by their god. In that case, homosexuality would also be given by their god so they would protect what their god created.

In real life however, hypocrites are against anything and everything that doesn't fit their narrow little hate beliefs. And, by GAWD, if there is one thing "christians" love its HATE.

Sexual rights are part of being human. But, for all the haters, certain sexual rights are terrifying. Way too many are scared to death that they might be homa-sax-shuls so they hate them.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENTH
CHRISTIANS LOVE HATE

Of the above four sayings, which three did George Orwell write, and which one did Luddly Goodnite write?

 

[Amazed]

LOL.....very stable....says the taker with zero understanding of how things actually work....

You think we can "print" our way out of this.

Hi.

What do you mean by "taker"?

That was extreme, I apologize.

Our way of life is anything but stable.

We have been monetizing our debt since Bush, that means we just print the money we need....

If you start with two dollars and you just print a new dollar you have cut the value of the two you started with.

Everything we hold dear is hanging by a thread....the last time this was tried was the the Weimar Republic, it ended very badly.

 

[B. Kidd]

Narratively correct, legally nonsense.

We are a secular government that keeps government and organized religion apart.

End of story.

That's your opinion and non-binding on anyone.

After the French Revolution, the "Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen" espoused 'natural law' without basing itself on religious authority, unlike our declaration.. But, yet, their ensuing constitution was guided by their declaration.
So it is an opinion set in the historical precedent of two seperate revolutions, declarations, and constitutions.
Fact.

And I thank you for keeping the 'legal nonsense' out of the narrative of 'natural process'.

 

[Sallow]

...we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth.

You could not be more wrong. The ENTIRE idea behind the founding of America, which is codified in the Constitution, is that no government nor any person can grant or take certain rights without due process. You and everyone is born with these rights. It matters not if you believe in God, you get the rights no matter what.

That is what differentiated the USA from previous societies in which some rights could be granted by government and others taken without due process (it's good the be the King!). America was the first to say your rights are yours at birth. Nobody need grant them. And, if a right is to be taken away, it must be through due process (warrants, trial by peers, etc).

Read up on history. You're missing the idea behind the American experiment...the very heart of it.

You entire argument is dashed apart by history.

Native Americans and Africans were not protected by any "godly" rights. Neither were women or people without land.

 

[B. Kidd]

...we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth.

You could not be more wrong. The ENTIRE idea behind the founding of America, which is codified in the Constitution, is that no government nor any person can grant or take certain rights without due process. You and everyone is born with these rights. It matters not if you believe in God, you get the rights no matter what.

That is what differentiated the USA from previous societies in which some rights could be granted by government and others taken without due process (it's good the be the King!). America was the first to say your rights are yours at birth. Nobody need grant them. And, if a right is to be taken away, it must be through due process (warrants, trial by peers, etc).

Read up on history. You're missing the idea behind the American experiment...the very heart of it.

You entire argument is dashed apart by history.

Native Americans and Africans were not protected by any "godly" rights. Neither were women or people without land.

So, are you saying that Native Americans, Africans, Women, and the Land-less, did not have a Creator?

 

[GuyPinestra]

...we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth.

You could not be more wrong. The ENTIRE idea behind the founding of America, which is codified in the Constitution, is that no government nor any person can grant or take certain rights without due process. You and everyone is born with these rights. It matters not if you believe in God, you get the rights no matter what.

That is what differentiated the USA from previous societies in which some rights could be granted by government and others taken without due process (it's good the be the King!). America was the first to say your rights are yours at birth. Nobody need grant them. And, if a right is to be taken away, it must be through due process (warrants, trial by peers, etc).

Read up on history. You're missing the idea behind the American experiment...the very heart of it.

You are wrong. We the people, not god, not nature decide on rights and freedoms which are implemented by the government through the Constitution, amendments, laws, etc. God has influenced some of this as well as nature (I mentioned limitations nature imposes upon us) but the real determinants are the people!!! I never said government can take away rights or that government is autonomous and can dictate them. It is WE THE PEOPLE!!!!

You deserve this....

FUCK OFF, YOU IDIOT
MOTHER FUCKER!!​

"We the People ARE the government, you illiterate moron!

Any 'right' given by the Government can be TAKEN by the Government.

 

[LoneLaugher]

LOL.....very stable....says the taker with zero understanding of how things actually work....

You think we can "print" our way out of this.

Hi.

What do you mean by "taker"?

That was extreme, I apologize.

Our way of life is anything but stable.

We have been monetizing our debt since Bush, that means we just print the money we need....

If you start with two dollars and you just print a new dollar you have cut the value of the two you started with.

Everything we hold dear is hanging by a thread....the last time this was tried was the the Weimar Republic, it ended very badly.

OK.......we are talking about two different things. I am referring to our political system being stable......still a nation of laws and while imperfect......still not in danger of being trashed from within.

Economics.........your concern. We are the wealthiest nation in the world. We have the debt because there are banks willing to loan us the money. They only do that......if they are acting rationally......because they know we can still pay it back. In addition.....the rest of the world relies on us for food and/or affordable food availability. Our position is stable. Thus.....investors are still lining up.

Attempts to reduce the debt are futile as long as we refuse to energize the middle class with buying power while taking the steps needed to once again become the worlds leading manufacturer/producer.

In order to do that......and capitalize on our greatest resource........the American worker....we need to rebuild and update infrastructure............and friggen educate our kids.

Feel better?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

That is simply not true. Rights may be restricted through the legislative process, but the rights we're talking about, you're born with. We can debate on what is and what isn't an inherent right, but you are very wrong that rights come through democracy or through social consensus. Just flat out wrong.

I am amazed that there is this much ignorance on this subject. It is the very founding principal that differentiated the USA from all previous societies.

Ah the wonders of public education...

Then why can the right of gays to same sex marriage be so easily ignored, and denied?

Rights are (1) to Life (2) Liberty (3) Property (4) Pursue Happiness.

/.

And the ‘right’ to ‘pursue happiness’ is the right to self-determination, the right to privacy, the right to equal access to the law, and thus the right to marry.

Otherwise, Justice Kennedy’s majority opinion in Lawrence is among the better expressions of the meaning of the Constitution and its case law, perhaps some might find it helpful:

Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Don't be goofy, Kidd. Natural process has nothing to do with the legal narrative of the Constitution. God (yours or mine) has nothing to do with governing the American nation. I can clearly show you where in the Constitution that we are a secular governance.

End of story.

Narratively correct, legally nonsense.

We are a secular government that keeps government and organized religion apart.

End of story.

After the French Revolution, the "Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen" espoused 'natural law' without basing itself on religious authority, unlike our declaration.. But, yet, their ensuing constitution was guided by their declaration.
So it is an opinion set in the historical precedent of two seperate revolutions, declarations, and constitutions.
Fact.

And I thank you for keeping the 'legal nonsense' out of the narrative of 'natural process'.

 

[B. Kidd]

Hi.

What do you mean by "taker"?

That was extreme, I apologize.

Our way of life is anything but stable.

We have been monetizing our debt since Bush, that means we just print the money we need....

If you start with two dollars and you just print a new dollar you have cut the value of the two you started with.

Everything we hold dear is hanging by a thread....the last time this was tried was the the Weimar Republic, it ended very badly.

OK.......we are talking about two different things. I am referring to our political system being stable......still a nation of laws and while imperfect......still not in danger of being trashed from within.

Economics.........your concern. We are the wealthiest nation in the world. We have the debt because there are banks willing to loan us the money. They only do that......if they are acting rationally......because they know we can still pay it back. In addition.....the rest of the world relies on us for food and/or affordable food availability. Our position is stable. Thus.....investors are still lining up.

Attempts to reduce the debt are futile as long as we refuse to energize the middle class with buying power while taking the steps needed to once again become the worlds leading manufacturer/producer.

In order to do that......and capitalize on our greatest resource........the American worker....we need to rebuild and update infrastructure............and friggen educate our kids.

Feel better?

Banks don't loan, tho' we monetize (print mo' money for the banks). Banks forgot how to act rationally, or have you been in a time capsule for the last 4-5 years? Who is the 'we' that can pay back? For sure, not the middle class, as 40% of their wealth was wiped out while you've been in a time capsule. And the rest of the world views us with suspicion as they feel duped by buying into 'mortgage securitizations'. The world can forget about food for the next year, as we experienced a mega-drought this year. Yet, you are trying to sell that investors are 'lining up' and 'our position is stable'? Besides, we are already 15 trillion in debt, so where is the money gonna come from to 'rebuild and update infrastructure'?
We have two choices......print more money or vote Obama out, with the latter giving us a sliver of a chance to really recover way down the road.
Otherwise, with Obamnomics for 4 more years, a sliver of a chance to recover becomes no iota of a chance to recover.
Just the way it is!

 

[LoneLaugher]

Nope.

 

[SniperFire]

...we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth.

You could not be more wrong. The ENTIRE idea behind the founding of America, which is codified in the Constitution, is that no government nor any person can grant or take certain rights without due process. You and everyone is born with these rights. It matters not if you believe in God, you get the rights no matter what.

That doesn't really refute the point of the OP that rights are established and secured through social consensus. The fact that you can point to the importance of a foundational idea sewn into the fabric of American culture as the source of America's (not always uniformly sterling) dedication to the protection of human rights doesn't contradict the point being made at all.

Wrong again.

Unalienable rights have nothing to do with 'social consciousness.'

 

[SniperFire]

Irony:

"Prove our Government doesn't provide our rights."

"Our Government's founding documents say so!"

Double entendre of irony, actually. wow.

Wrong.

Our founding documents acknowledge that our unalienable rights supersede government. They do not 'grant' rights.

 

[Amazed]

Banks are not loaning right now...too much risk because of the new laws....and yes we have been monetizing our debt...it will destroy us if we aren't careful.

 

[courseofhistory]

You could not be more wrong. The ENTIRE idea behind the founding of America, which is codified in the Constitution, is that no government nor any person can grant or take certain rights without due process. You and everyone is born with these rights. It matters not if you believe in God, you get the rights no matter what.

That is what differentiated the USA from previous societies in which some rights could be granted by government and others taken without due process (it's good the be the King!). America was the first to say your rights are yours at birth. Nobody need grant them. And, if a right is to be taken away, it must be through due process (warrants, trial by peers, etc).

Read up on history. You're missing the idea behind the American experiment...the very heart of it.

You are wrong. We the people, not god, not nature decide on rights and freedoms which are implemented by the government through the Constitution, amendments, laws, etc. God has influenced some of this as well as nature (I mentioned limitations nature imposes upon us) but the real determinants are the people!!! I never said government can take away rights or that government is autonomous and can dictate them. It is WE THE PEOPLE!!!!

You deserve this....

FUCK OFF, YOU IDIOT
MOTHER FUCKER!!​

"We the People ARE the government, you illiterate moron!

Any 'right' given by the Government can be TAKEN by the Government.

I believe you are confusing yourself. What you said above about "we the people" is exactly the point I was making. And if the government can take a right away it is with the consent of the people! BTW, I don't think your red font is big enough and if you want people to take you seriously (which is doubtful), you could try debating the subject instead of wetting your pants!

 

[SniperFire]

Why not?

Because if they could be voted away, they wouldn't be inalienable.

His point was, they cant be voted away because the people put that to paper.

If you still dont get the contradiction - meh.

You are actually getting to the chewy center of your argument fail, in that America is quite fundamentally a quasi-theocracy where we believe that man did not grant us rights by putting them on 'paper. '

In fact, many Founders wanted nothing to do with producing a Bill of Rights, since they rightfully assumed some right would be overlooked.

If it is possible for a right to be overlooked, then logic dictates that rights exist independent of man putting them on paper.

But again, this all assumes you buy into the unique idea behind America and God granting sovereign rights to each individual. Godless commies don't want to hear it. Tough shit.

 

[courseofhistory]

Paul Ryan has no effing clue. Neither does idiot Mittens. How dare they make their grand entrance from a BATTLESHIP and to the music from the movie, Air Force One. Mittens is a draft dodger who hid out in Paris, in the lap of luxury. Ryan is a hawk who cheerfully sends others to a useless and illegal war but never served himself. A pair of chickenhawks with not one real testicle between them but they're hoping that rw's are so dumb, they'll ignore that or believe that somehow, either of them have ever done a damn thing to save American rights.

Our RIGHTS come from the men and women who lay down their lives while others snap their fingers for another mint julep.

Where was "gawd" or nature on the battlefields of the American Revolution? Or, the battlefields of any other war the US has fought in?

Saying that his god or nature gave us our right to free speech, our right to "bear arms", or any other RIGHT we enjoy, just proves what a weasel Ryan really is. He didn't fight for anything and Mittens sure as hell didn't fight for anything so neither of these jerks have the right to tell anybody where their rights came from.

What a matched set they are.

Yeah, I thought of that battleship hype myself. It was even more offensive and an exemplar of extreme hubris than Obama's Roman Columns in Denver! And I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Banks are not loaning right now...too much risk because of the new laws....and yes we have been monetizing our debt...it will destroy us if we aren't careful.

Who holds our debt?

 

[Amazed]

Banks are not loaning right now...too much risk because of the new laws....and yes we have been monetizing our debt...it will destroy us if we aren't careful.

Who holds our debt?

Various countries but primarily China, we have printed the rest...surely you are aware of "quantitative easing".....

 

[NYcarbineer]

Your right to get butt-fucked is included in the right to pursue happiness.

What else can I clarify for ya'?

.

Are human sexual rights inalienable? Are they God given, or natural?

Asked and answered.

Move on.

.

Then the right of gays to same sex unions/marriages are a natural 'God given' right that cannot be justly taken from them while leaving them in place for heterosexuals.