Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

[Yousaidwhat]

So, the majority of gun owners are: White. Married. Have Kids. Rural. Middle class
But the majority of violent crimes are: Minority. Single. No kids. Urban. Low income.

Remind me again how that works?

Who do you think steals the guns?

So we shouldn't own cars?

They might steal them?

 

[rightwinger]

Am I right that the right-to-carry laws started getting put into place as crime rates were already declining across the country?

Yes; essentially one thinks the Clinton administration as being the period of tremendous decline, and that was hurting gun sales dramatically. So the NRA was looking around for other ways to stimulate gun sales and managed to get a fair number of these right-to-carry laws passed during the Clinton years and successive years.

Permit holders do an amazing effectively job of arming criminals with their lost and stolen guns.

Both violent crime and the murder rate peaked during the early 90s. This was due to the crack epidemic and crack wars.

The murder rate has dropped significantly since then and gun advocates are taking credit for the drop in violent crimes. But the rate has dropped significantly in both states with strong gun laws and states with open carry
It was going to drop regardless of gun possession

 

[Skull Pilot]

Kleck:
Finally, Lott claims that “the vast majority of” studies of the impact of right-to-carry laws indicate that they reduce crime. Unlike Lott, I do not believe that truth is determined by majority vote. It is not the most popular conclusion that is most likely to be correct; it is the one supported by the methodologically strongest research, no matter how numerous or rare the technically stronger studies may be. Lott’s primary research, and that of others who drew the same conclusions, relied on county crime data that were essentially worthless for tracking crime trends before and after right-to-carry laws were passed, because they did not correct for widespread failures of law enforcement agencies to report their crime data to the Uniform Crime Reporting program. The technically soundest studies that were not afflicted by this problem have found that right-to-carry laws have no net effect one way or the other on crime rates.

So you just contradicted your first post.

So if they have no net effect on crime why do you oppose carry laws?

The OP was sharing a study. That post was another oppinion. The OP was for discussion.

So you posted a "study" based on synthetic analysis that you don't even agree with

 

[Skull Pilot]

Kleck:
Finally, Lott claims that “the vast majority of” studies of the impact of right-to-carry laws indicate that they reduce crime. Unlike Lott, I do not believe that truth is determined by majority vote. It is not the most popular conclusion that is most likely to be correct; it is the one supported by the methodologically strongest research, no matter how numerous or rare the technically stronger studies may be. Lott’s primary research, and that of others who drew the same conclusions, relied on county crime data that were essentially worthless for tracking crime trends before and after right-to-carry laws were passed, because they did not correct for widespread failures of law enforcement agencies to report their crime data to the Uniform Crime Reporting program. The technically soundest studies that were not afflicted by this problem have found that right-to-carry laws have no net effect one way or the other on crime rates.

So you just contradicted your first post.

So if they have no net effect on crime why do you oppose carry laws?

I oppose carry laws because too many guns are killing our law enforcement. A cop gets shot and killed every week. Too many guns.

NOT BY LEGAL CARRY people dumb fuck.

Law Enforcement Officers Killed By Concealed Carry Killers

So

That is hardly statistically significant

And once again you are resorting to the flawed argument that all gun owners or CCW permit holders are responsible for the acts of others

 

[Skull Pilot]

A million crimes per year are prevented by good men and women carrying guns.

How many arrests does that lead to?

doesn't matter it leads to fewer victims of crime

 

[Skull Pilot]

Kleck:
Finally, Lott claims that “the vast majority of” studies of the impact of right-to-carry laws indicate that they reduce crime. Unlike Lott, I do not believe that truth is determined by majority vote. It is not the most popular conclusion that is most likely to be correct; it is the one supported by the methodologically strongest research, no matter how numerous or rare the technically stronger studies may be. Lott’s primary research, and that of others who drew the same conclusions, relied on county crime data that were essentially worthless for tracking crime trends before and after right-to-carry laws were passed, because they did not correct for widespread failures of law enforcement agencies to report their crime data to the Uniform Crime Reporting program. The technically soundest studies that were not afflicted by this problem have found that right-to-carry laws have no net effect one way or the other on crime rates.

Kleck is a criminologist, Lott is an economist...Kleck does not believe in market forces....considering the all of the studies that show Kleck is off on this, he has no leg to stand on when it comes to crime reduction.....that isn't his area....he just found that Americans use guns close to 2-2.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack....it was Lott's research on concealed carry laws and numerous others that found it helps reduce crime rates...

But keep trying to lie....

Yes I know you only choose to believe Kleck when you agree with him. Economists don't study crime....

Yes..economists do..........they study it all the time...

Please explain. What does concealed carry have to do with the economy?

CCW as related to crime has plenty to do with the economy

 

[Skull Pilot]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Violent Crime: The US and Abroad - Criminal Justice Degree Hub

The US as a whole is as safe as most modern industrialized nations.

 

[Scamp]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Europe does not have blacks committing half the gun violence.

 

[Brain357]

Kleck:
Finally, Lott claims that “the vast majority of” studies of the impact of right-to-carry laws indicate that they reduce crime. Unlike Lott, I do not believe that truth is determined by majority vote. It is not the most popular conclusion that is most likely to be correct; it is the one supported by the methodologically strongest research, no matter how numerous or rare the technically stronger studies may be. Lott’s primary research, and that of others who drew the same conclusions, relied on county crime data that were essentially worthless for tracking crime trends before and after right-to-carry laws were passed, because they did not correct for widespread failures of law enforcement agencies to report their crime data to the Uniform Crime Reporting program. The technically soundest studies that were not afflicted by this problem have found that right-to-carry laws have no net effect one way or the other on crime rates.

So you just contradicted your first post.

So if they have no net effect on crime why do you oppose carry laws?

The OP was sharing a study. That post was another oppinion. The OP was for discussion.

So you posted a "study" based on synthetic analysis that you don't even agree with

Was posted for discussion. I like to hear all sides.

 

[Brain357]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Violent Crime: The US and Abroad - Criminal Justice Degree Hub

The US as a whole is as safe as most modern industrialized nations.

Shouldn't we be much safer since we have by far the most guns?

 

[rightwinger]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Europe does not have blacks committing half the gun violence.

Neither does the US

 

[Slash]

And they still have much lower crime rates. Chicago experienced a surge in homicides after getting concealed carry. Surges happen, but overall they are still much safer countries. How about Japan?[/QUOTE]

Chicago experienced that surge at the same time as Baltimore, which has no concealed carry. Actually Baltimore hit an all time high, while Chicago did not. And we've already talked about how when concealed carry started in Chicago it also saw record drops in murder rates. You aren't proving any correlation. All you are proving is with concealed carry, murder rates vary. Without concealed carry, murder rates vary.

Look at 1997 vs. today. Kansas 1997 no issuance at all of concealed carry. Today, unrestricted, no permit required for concealed carry. Murder rate dropped from about 165 a year to around 100 a year with a 20% increase in population to boot. Concealed carry and reduced crime together.

Nebraska... Went from a no issue state to a shall issue state in the past 20 years. Murder rate down nearly 15%, violent crime rate dropped nearly 30%.

New Mexico, 190 murders and 16,700 violent crimes as a no issue state. 117 and 13,700 as a shall issue state, and a 15-20% increase in population to boot.

In 1997 the ONLY state in the US with unrestricted open carry was Vermont. They were only behind the Dakotas for the lowest murder rate in the USA. The safest state east of the Mississippi was the only one with unrestricted open carry.

Arizona passed unrestricted concealed carry in 2010. Murder rate dropped in 2011.. and 2012, and 2013, and 2014, and 2015.

Alaska passed unrestricted concealed carry in 2003. 2009 saw the lowest number of murders in 45 years and the lowest murder rate on record.


I'm not saying concealed carry reduces crime.

I am saying you haven't even been able to prove correlation between concealed carry and crime. And you need that before you even start to think about cause and effect.

I'm saying rather than trying to fit this square peg you have into the round hole, why not put the politics aside. Quit trying to force an argument that has no correlation because it fits your political leanings, and look at socio-economic issues that lead to crime rates.

 

[Brain357]

And they still have much lower crime rates. Chicago experienced a surge in homicides after getting concealed carry. Surges happen, but overall they are still much safer countries. How about Japan?

Chicago experienced that surge at the same time as Baltimore, which has no concealed carry. Actually Baltimore hit an all time high, while Chicago did not. And we've already talked about how when concealed carry started in Chicago it also saw record drops in murder rates. You aren't proving any correlation. All you are proving is with concealed carry, murder rates vary. Without concealed carry, murder rates vary.

Look at 1997 vs. today. Kansas 1997 no issuance at all of concealed carry. Today, unrestricted, no permit required for concealed carry. Murder rate dropped from about 165 a year to around 100 a year with a 20% increase in population to boot. Concealed carry and reduced crime together.

Nebraska... Went from a no issue state to a shall issue state in the past 20 years. Murder rate down nearly 15%, violent crime rate dropped nearly 30%.

New Mexico, 190 murders and 16,700 violent crimes as a no issue state. 117 and 13,700 as a shall issue state, and a 15-20% increase in population to boot.

In 1997 the ONLY state in the US with unrestricted open carry was Vermont. They were only behind the Dakotas for the lowest murder rate in the USA. The safest state east of the Mississippi was the only one with unrestricted open carry.

Arizona passed unrestricted concealed carry in 2010. Murder rate dropped in 2011.. and 2012, and 2013, and 2014, and 2015.

Alaska passed unrestricted concealed carry in 2003. 2009 saw the lowest number of murders in 45 years and the lowest murder rate on record.


I'm not saying concealed carry reduces crime.

I am saying you haven't even been able to prove correlation between concealed carry and crime. And you need that before you even start to think about cause and effect.

I'm saying rather than trying to fit this square peg you have into the round hole, why not put the politics aside. Quit trying to force an argument that has no correlation because it fits your political leanings, and look at socio-economic issues that lead to crime rates.

I strongly disagree with the idea more guns lowers crime, but can't strongly disagree with anything you just said.

What are your thoughts on how often our police are shot and killed? How often they shoot and kill people? We stand out in the world in the regards.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Violent Crime: The US and Abroad - Criminal Justice Degree Hub

The US as a whole is as safe as most modern industrialized nations.

Shouldn't we be much safer since we have by far the most guns?

No.

The point is we are just as safe while allowing citizens to have the right to be armed if they so choose.
Our 2nd amendment right makes us no less safe as you say it does.

I for one never said more guns equal less crime because in all honesty I don't care if citizens being armed reduces or increases the crime rate.

I say this because I know that I am not responsible for the actions of others. I have been shooting since I was 8, got my first .22 rifle at 16 have had my CCW permit for 27 years and have never once committed a crime with a gun, have never once accidentally discharged a gun, have never once even pointed a gun in the general direction of another person. I am more exemplary of the average gun owner than you seem to believe.

 

[Brain357]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Violent Crime: The US and Abroad - Criminal Justice Degree Hub

The US as a whole is as safe as most modern industrialized nations.

Shouldn't we be much safer since we have by far the most guns?

No.

The point is we are just as safe while allowing citizens to have the right to be armed if they so choose.
Our 2nd amendment right makes us no less safe as you say it does.

I for one never said more guns equal less crime because in all honesty I don't care if citizens being armed reduces or increases the crime rate.

I say this because I know that I am not responsible for the actions of others. I have been shooting since I was 8, got my first .22 rifle at 16 have had my CCW permit for 27 years and have never once committed a crime with a gun, have never once accidentally discharged a gun, have never once even pointed a gun in the general direction of another person. I am more exemplary of the average gun owner than you seem to believe.

That is fair. Can I assume you've never needed a gun for defense?

Same question for you:
What are your thoughts on how often our police are shot and killed? How often they shoot and kill people? We stand out in the world in the regards.

 

[Slash]

I strongly disagree with the idea more guns lowers crime, but can't strongly disagree with anything you just said.

What are your thoughts on how often our police are shot and killed? How often they shoot and kill people? We stand out in the world in the regards.

Thanks, honestly.

I really think we need to stop looking at guns. Like I've said, Australia and New Zealand, similar soci-economic situations, went opposite ways on gun control and had similar results. This goes for both sides here. The problem is the left and right get so diametrically opposed they focus on what they are opposed about and not the issue. So we've got all these gun studies out there from both sides, showing two different things. Constantly debunking each other. That's why I said even though you see correlation between gun laws and lower crime in my examples, I am not saying there is a cause and effect.

I think it's largely regardless of guns. Unfortunately most of the studies are partisan and ignore that part. But be it drugs, other legislation, restrictions or openings of freedom, financial situations, how we police cities, who knows. Maybe it's just ingrained in our society and needs a new generation to fix.

 

[Brain357]

I strongly disagree with the idea more guns lowers crime, but can't strongly disagree with anything you just said.

What are your thoughts on how often our police are shot and killed? How often they shoot and kill people? We stand out in the world in the regards.

Thanks, honestly.

I really think we need to stop looking at guns. Like I've said, Australia and New Zealand, similar soci-economic situations, went opposite ways on gun control and had similar results. This goes for both sides here. The problem is the left and right get so diametrically opposed they focus on what they are opposed about and not the issue. So we've got all these gun studies out there from both sides, showing two different things. Constantly debunking each other. That's why I said even though you see correlation between gun laws and lower crime in my examples, I am not saying there is a cause and effect.

I think it's largely regardless of guns. Unfortunately most of the studies are partisan and ignore that part. But be it drugs, other legislation, restrictions or openings of freedom, financial situations, how we police cities, who knows. Maybe it's just ingrained in our society and needs a new generation to fix.

If you want to lower crime I completely agree guns shouldn't be your first step. But I do think they play a huge role in police deaths and shootings.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Gun laws work adversely. The areas with the most strict gun laws have the most gun crime.

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Violent Crime: The US and Abroad - Criminal Justice Degree Hub

The US as a whole is as safe as most modern industrialized nations.

Shouldn't we be much safer since we have by far the most guns?

No.

The point is we are just as safe while allowing citizens to have the right to be armed if they so choose.
Our 2nd amendment right makes us no less safe as you say it does.

I for one never said more guns equal less crime because in all honesty I don't care if citizens being armed reduces or increases the crime rate.

I say this because I know that I am not responsible for the actions of others. I have been shooting since I was 8, got my first .22 rifle at 16 have had my CCW permit for 27 years and have never once committed a crime with a gun, have never once accidentally discharged a gun, have never once even pointed a gun in the general direction of another person. I am more exemplary of the average gun owner than you seem to believe.

That is fair. Can I assume you've never needed a gun for defense?

Same question for you:
What are your thoughts on how often our police are shot and killed? How often they shoot and kill people? We stand out in the world in the regards.

No, luckily I have not ever had to use a gun in self defense. But then again I've never used home owners insurance either but I still keep it.
There is real violence in this world and I count myself lucky as to have not been a victim of violent crime as of this point in my life but I am not naive enough to think it will never happen.

And I really don't care how many people are shot by cops. IMO if you are not complying with a cop no matter if you're innocent or not then you run the risk of getting shot.

I have been stopped for minor things like a burned out tail light and I always always always do whatever the officer tells me to do. I even go so far as to keep my registration clipped to my visor so I don't have to rummage around in the glove box for it. I keep both my drivers' license and my CCW permit in my front shirt pocket so I don't have to reach behind my back to get them out of a wallet.

My thoughts on the matter are that if you get shot by a cop you were doing something to deserve it.

Cops getting shot is part of the job.

 

[Scamp]

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Europe does not have blacks committing half the gun violence.[/QUOTE]

Neither does the US[/QUOTE]

DOJ statistics show that blacks commit half the murders and gun crimes. I know you find this unbelievable and shocking, but it's a fact.

 

[Brain357]

Are those the most densely populated areas?

Why is it Europe with strict gun laws has so much lower crime?

Violent Crime: The US and Abroad - Criminal Justice Degree Hub

The US as a whole is as safe as most modern industrialized nations.

Shouldn't we be much safer since we have by far the most guns?

No.

The point is we are just as safe while allowing citizens to have the right to be armed if they so choose.
Our 2nd amendment right makes us no less safe as you say it does.

I for one never said more guns equal less crime because in all honesty I don't care if citizens being armed reduces or increases the crime rate.

I say this because I know that I am not responsible for the actions of others. I have been shooting since I was 8, got my first .22 rifle at 16 have had my CCW permit for 27 years and have never once committed a crime with a gun, have never once accidentally discharged a gun, have never once even pointed a gun in the general direction of another person. I am more exemplary of the average gun owner than you seem to believe.

That is fair. Can I assume you've never needed a gun for defense?

Same question for you:
What are your thoughts on how often our police are shot and killed? How often they shoot and kill people? We stand out in the world in the regards.

No, luckily I have not ever had to use a gun in self defense. But then again I've never used home owners insurance either but I still keep it.
There is real violence in this world and I count myself lucky as to have not been a victim of violent crime as of this point in my life but I am not naive enough to think it will never happen.

And I really don't care how many people are shot by cops. IMO if you are not complying with a cop no matter if you're innocent or not then you run the risk of getting shot.

I have been stopped for minor things like a burned out tail light and I always always always do whatever the officer tells me to do. I even go so far as to keep my registration clipped to my visor so I don't have to rummage around in the glove box for it. I keep both my drivers' license and my CCW permit in my front shirt pocket so I don't have to reach behind my back to get them out of a wallet.

My thoughts on the matter are that if you get shot by a cop you were doing something to deserve it.

Cops getting shot is part of the job.

While I believe that to be the case in the majority of instances, there certainly are many mistakes also:
New Details Surface In Minnesota Officer-Involved Shooting Of Australian Woman

This guy would have been better off not carrying:
'Concealed carrier's worst nightmare': Officer acquitted in death of Philando Castile

Possibly getting shot is part of the job, but it doesn't need to be so bad:

In 2015, the year for which the most recent French government data are available, six police officers were killed in the line of duty, according to an October 2016 report by the National Institute of Higher Studies of Security and Justice. In 2014, 11 officers were killed, and the total for the year before that was 10. The numbers dating to 2010 are slightly lower


.French police are targeted but rarely killed