Does Spanking kids Work?

[asterism]

You have a great point. "Sticks and stones" was made up by tough guys. Words can maim for life. People that spank and beat in anger usually worsen the physical punishment by the use of verbal abuse.

I went to school with someone whose mother was every bit as psychotic as my father. She never touched him...but every day, it was: moron, idiot, dullard, stupid, and the like. When he got a bad grade, she once told him "If I'd known you'd be this stupid, I would have aborted you." He was told that if he wasn't the valedictorian, he would be disowned.

His junior year, he got a C on a calculus test. (Note: that was a college-level course.) He wrote, "You're right, I'm stupid," on the test, went home, and hung himself in the garage. His 13-year-old sister (my wife's close friend) found his body.

His mother actually refused to pay for a funeral.

I went to school with a kid like that too, who also hung himself. Same story. He was a top student and smart as a whip. Apparently not smart enough.

Also came to the same conclusion as Luddly and Jaraxle about not procreating, for similar reasons. I know exactly what you guys mean.

So you folks are so eager to demonize parenting methods but you don't have kids yourselves?

Predictable.

It's one thing to civilly disagree (as many have) but some of you people are making false generalizations.

 

[asterism]

I don't think anyone suggested that "spanking = X in every child". I didn't read that. But you actually hit the nail on the head whether you meant to or not, right here:



Exactly. That was the original point. It's a slippery slope and it's all downhill.

No, it’s not a slippery slope and you are going to have to do a lot more to establish such a causation. Again, using such a tool in direct relation to another violent act is certainly an effective disciplinary tool as well as something that teaches the valuable lesson. That does not make it a slippery slope.


A LOT of your statements continually demand that others are setting up straw men when, quite frankly, they are not. You are making the contention that spanking is, essentially, universally bad because it is going to leave the child thinking that might = right. That statement is outright false and, as eflat has been pointing out, is proven false by the fact that it has been quite effective for damn near forever. It is a disciplinary tool simple as that and has its place/use. That does not mean that all children should be spanked. Quite the contrary, the majority of children need no such thing.

Your statements ONLY hold true if spanking is used regularly and often, something that the VAST majority of parents that use spanking DOD NOT DO. I think that perhaps a lot of what you are stating is colored by this stamen though:

If that's the case we may have been describing different things this whole time

I find that a single term becomes the common vernacular in a family... in mine it was called "spanking" but in others it might have been "whipping" or "switching". It could involve open hand or wooden or leather instruments; these made no distinction made in what it was called. Usually it involved being physically cornered, and it was always delivered in anger and rage (which only makes sense; how could a calm person do it?).

Anyway that's what I understand the topic to be. I think this idea that there's some kind of "spanking lite" controlled violence going around is just unrealistic.

It is not unrealistic at all. As a matter of fact, it is the commonality whereas your ‘definition’ of spank is extremely uncommon. I haven’t heard of a parent requiring an ‘instrument’ like a belt for a generation. Even in my childhood such was a rare occurrence. Also, being physically cornered is NOT a likely scenario. Typically, the parent would make the child come over themselves. Cornering a child and hitting them essentially takes away the entire discipline part of the spanking. I know that I certainly am not going to corner my child – he is going to walk himself over to me no matter what the disciplinary action is. Chasing him down gives the wrong message about who is actually in control here. I don’t know a single parent that would do otherwise as well (though I am sure that they are out there).

Quite frankly, you are talking about an abusive situation. If you need to chase the child down and hit them with a belt or other object it is no longer a disciplinary action. That is an action taken in anger and frustration. Most spankings are not taken in anger – they are delivered because a parent is disciplining the child. Most BEATINGS are in anger and such is an entirely different ballgame having no similarities at all with a disciplinary action.

Again, a tower of babble to make a distinction without a difference. I don't think your Pollyanna view is realistic as far as what goes on in the real world. At all. If a parent isn't inflicting pain and suffering out of anger -- what's the point? Why would you pretend to be angry when you're not? Doesn't add up.

Further, as regards belts -- read the OP.

Taking the cell phone away from my teenage daughter causes more pain for her than any spanking she got ever did.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

 

[Iceweasel]

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

A homosexual criticizing parental skills. Isn't that quaint?

 

[asterism]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Perhaps you just don't understand. There is a distinction between spanking and hitting just as there is a distinction between poking fun and being mean.

 

[Chaussette]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Perhaps you just don't understand. There is a distinction between spanking and hitting just as there is a distinction between poking fun and being mean.

Spanking IS hitting. You hit your child with your hand or a belt, a wooden spoon...
Hitting children is cowardly.

 

[asterism]

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Perhaps you just don't understand. There is a distinction between spanking and hitting just as there is a distinction between poking fun and being mean.

Spanking IS hitting. You hit your child with your hand or a belt, a wooden spoon...
Hitting children is cowardly.

Spanking is not hitting, there is a difference. When you equate a tap on the butt to a punch in the face you make things worse for actual abused children.

 

[Ringel05]

Seems like some here would rather emote, walking the line (and occasionally stepping over) between clean debate and flaming. If you can't be adults and control your emotions maybe you should consider the Flame Zone, Badlands or the Rubber Room as your only soapbox.........

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Seems like some here would rather emote, walking the line (and occasionally stepping over) between clean debate and flaming. If you can't be adults and control your emotions maybe you should consider the Flame Zone, Badlands or the Rubber Room as your only soapbox.........

You really do need a mirror.

 

[oldfart]

I'm taking a different tack from the entertaining but out of bounds recent series of taunts and invective to point out that a couple of good points have been inadvertently raised.

Several posters have made passing mention of emotional abuse and compared it to physical abuse. IMHO emotional abuse can be every bit as damaging to a child as physical abuse. If we want to rear successful, self-confident, productive, and happy members of society; then we need to ask if all parts of our parenting strategy are consistent with that goal, including how we discipline and correct children. Anything with a high potential for great harm should be avoided.

A second point is that I have seen no perfect parents. I am certainly not a perfect parent, nor is anyone I know of. We make mistakes, and sometimes our children suffer because of those mistakes. It doesn't help to get too worked up about it. Kids are pretty adaptable. I seriously doubt that if a parent loses their temper once and slaps a kid around in anger that the child is scarred for life. Of course that doesn't make it a good idea or excuse the behavior. It still is a bad lesson for the child.

I see a strong connection between how posters recall their own childhood and what they think good parenting consists of. If all of your childhood memories are warm and fuzzy that's great. If not, there are probably some things you wish had been done differently. This is probably a good place to start with how you rear your own kids.

Maybe the problem with this thread is that it has focused too narrowly on discipline. Perhaps a wide range of discipline styles all work for parents who think about what lessons they want their children to learn, what kind of adults they want their children to grow into, who love their children and let them know it, and spend time with their children.

Now we can resume the insults.

 

[Wake]

In my own imperfect opinion, spanking shouldn't be illegal. If people don't want to spank their children, that is absolutely their right and I'll support it any day of the week. The same goes for people who believe in spanking their children. Guys, please, so long as we aren't trying to stop people from or forcing people to spank their little ones, we should all just relax, chill, sip some Joe, and try to understand each other better.

We ALL love our children. If you're reading this, look at everyone else here in this thread and acknowledge that every mother and father here loves their little ones so much. The whole big deal ain't one. We just disagree on the ways we go about disciplining our offspring. Let's try to get along and make a real attempt at trying to understand one another. This discussion would be so much nicer if we lowered our weapons and really, really tried to convey our experiences in a peaceful, respectful manner.

I think our children deserve that, because we are their examples... and they are our future.

 

[Asclepias]

I think any form of physical punishment for children should be outlawed. I've seen both extremes and its not a pretty sight. I know one guy in prison for killing his father due to the physical and mental abuse he suffered as a child. I know a woman who is a train wreck due to her parents trying to befriend her and withhold all punishment. IMHO raising your child can be done without ever laying a finger on them. It is more difficult especially if your child is willful but the results are outstanding. I relate raising children to training dogs. The same principles apply. You start young. You give them lots of opportunities to succeed. You give them as many yes's as possible. You limit the no's to whats absolutely necessary. You over celebrate their victories and use their losses as learning opportunities. Your disapproval is more than enough to punish a child if you have done everything else at least halfway right.

 

[BillyZane]

No, it’s not a slippery slope and you are going to have to do a lot more to establish such a causation. Again, using such a tool in direct relation to another violent act is certainly an effective disciplinary tool as well as something that teaches the valuable lesson. That does not make it a slippery slope.


A LOT of your statements continually demand that others are setting up straw men when, quite frankly, they are not. You are making the contention that spanking is, essentially, universally bad because it is going to leave the child thinking that might = right. That statement is outright false and, as eflat has been pointing out, is proven false by the fact that it has been quite effective for damn near forever. It is a disciplinary tool simple as that and has its place/use. That does not mean that all children should be spanked. Quite the contrary, the majority of children need no such thing.

Your statements ONLY hold true if spanking is used regularly and often, something that the VAST majority of parents that use spanking DOD NOT DO. I think that perhaps a lot of what you are stating is colored by this stamen though:

It is not unrealistic at all. As a matter of fact, it is the commonality whereas your ‘definition’ of spank is extremely uncommon. I haven’t heard of a parent requiring an ‘instrument’ like a belt for a generation. Even in my childhood such was a rare occurrence. Also, being physically cornered is NOT a likely scenario. Typically, the parent would make the child come over themselves. Cornering a child and hitting them essentially takes away the entire discipline part of the spanking. I know that I certainly am not going to corner my child – he is going to walk himself over to me no matter what the disciplinary action is. Chasing him down gives the wrong message about who is actually in control here. I don’t know a single parent that would do otherwise as well (though I am sure that they are out there).

Quite frankly, you are talking about an abusive situation. If you need to chase the child down and hit them with a belt or other object it is no longer a disciplinary action. That is an action taken in anger and frustration. Most spankings are not taken in anger – they are delivered because a parent is disciplining the child. Most BEATINGS are in anger and such is an entirely different ballgame having no similarities at all with a disciplinary action.

Again, a tower of babble to make a distinction without a difference. I don't think your Pollyanna view is realistic as far as what goes on in the real world. At all. If a parent isn't inflicting pain and suffering out of anger -- what's the point? Why would you pretend to be angry when you're not? Doesn't add up.

Further, as regards belts -- read the OP.

Taking the cell phone away from my teenage daughter causes more pain for her than any spanking she got ever did.

and that is where judgement comes into play. You judge that for YOUR child taking her phone away is the appropriate punishment. Meanwhile some other child may not respond at all to such punishment, but respond very well to spankings.

 

[Wake]

I think any form of physical punishment for children should be outlawed. I've seen both extremes and its not a pretty sight. I know one guy in prison for killing his father due to the physical and mental abuse he suffered as a child. I know a woman who is a train wreck due to her parents trying to befriend her and withhold all punishment. IMHO raising your child can be done without ever laying a finger on them. It is more difficult especially if your child is willful but the results are outstanding. I relate raising children to training dogs. The same principles apply. You start young. You give them lots of opportunities to succeed. You give them as many yes's as possible. You limit the no's to whats absolutely necessary. You over celebrate their victories and use their losses as learning opportunities. Your disapproval is more than enough to punish a child if you have done everything else at least halfway right.

Asclepias, there are two things I want you to know before we discuss this further. 1), I respect you. 2), you're OK in my book. That said, we disagree a bit on some stuff.

Physical punishment should be legal, so long as it doesn't cross any boundaries. Using a paddle or a hand on the rump is very different then slapping or punching the face, or beating, kicking punching, etc. Evolution made it so that the butt has fat on it, to make sitting more comfortable, while also making disciplining your children easier for both of you.

Sometimes young kids are little demons. I was one of them. Reasoning didn't work. You couldn't reason with me, therefore, you couldn't stop me. Little ones with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder can be so hyper and inattentive that only a few things will drive the message into the brain, and ensure it's remembered. And along the lines of being a hyper, evil, and intelligent brat, I soon learned that buying my love and obedience could be abused by me. Hitler did it, too. Sending me to my room did nothing, because video games. Having me stand in the corner did nothing but give me time to collect and organize my evil plans. Every little chink in my parents' armor was learned and abused, making it easy to come out ahead in bargaining.

Then the day came when it all stopped. I learned fear. After breaking something else Mom and Dad brought me into the living room, and I was notified that my butt was going to be spanked. This was new to me, because everything had been going so well. The very thought of this impending attack on my behind made me think that maybe, just maybe, my parents wouldn't lay down and take it any more. So with the bending of my body over Dad's knee, and the torture of the eternal two minutes, fear was not only learned... but remembered. Needless to say, so did respect. And with that my dreams of global domination came to an end.

If you my friend can get your children to obey you without having to spank their behinds, you are fortunate. That is rare, and was certainly not the case for my parents. Interestingly enough, we trained our puppy by scruffing her as punishment for biting people, running away, etc. She was a very loving, obedient, loyal sweetheart, and never got in trouble with the pound.

What you've mentioned about celebrating their victories and using their losses as learning opportunities is good, and I could see using that side-by-side with spanking out really bad behavior (maybe a caveat here would be to not over-celebrate, though?). If you were my parent, and I was very young, you would have to control me with spanking (give me very good reason to fear, respect, and obey you), or I'd likely burn your house down because no one's given me reason to not dare explore with matches.

Sometimes spanking is necessary and justified, and if you have reason to do so as a parent, you also have to keep it in moderation.

 

[Ringel05]

Seems like some here would rather emote, walking the line (and occasionally stepping over) between clean debate and flaming. If you can't be adults and control your emotions maybe you should consider the Flame Zone, Badlands or the Rubber Room as your only soapbox.........

You really do need a mirror.

That was an observation I made based on the dispassionate. Given your posting in this thread I would say your usage is anything but dispassionate or objective. Not that it wasn't unexpected, unfortunately.

 

[Chaussette]

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

A homosexual criticizing parental skills. Isn't that quaint?

I was married once to a beautiful, well-raised woman whose father was gay. Imagine that!

 

[Pogo]

No, it’s not a slippery slope and you are going to have to do a lot more to establish such a causation. Again, using such a tool in direct relation to another violent act is certainly an effective disciplinary tool as well as something that teaches the valuable lesson. That does not make it a slippery slope.


A LOT of your statements continually demand that others are setting up straw men when, quite frankly, they are not. You are making the contention that spanking is, essentially, universally bad because it is going to leave the child thinking that might = right. That statement is outright false and, as eflat has been pointing out, is proven false by the fact that it has been quite effective for damn near forever. It is a disciplinary tool simple as that and has its place/use. That does not mean that all children should be spanked. Quite the contrary, the majority of children need no such thing.

Your statements ONLY hold true if spanking is used regularly and often, something that the VAST majority of parents that use spanking DOD NOT DO. I think that perhaps a lot of what you are stating is colored by this stamen though:

It is not unrealistic at all. As a matter of fact, it is the commonality whereas your ‘definition’ of spank is extremely uncommon. I haven’t heard of a parent requiring an ‘instrument’ like a belt for a generation. Even in my childhood such was a rare occurrence. Also, being physically cornered is NOT a likely scenario. Typically, the parent would make the child come over themselves. Cornering a child and hitting them essentially takes away the entire discipline part of the spanking. I know that I certainly am not going to corner my child – he is going to walk himself over to me no matter what the disciplinary action is. Chasing him down gives the wrong message about who is actually in control here. I don’t know a single parent that would do otherwise as well (though I am sure that they are out there).

Quite frankly, you are talking about an abusive situation. If you need to chase the child down and hit them with a belt or other object it is no longer a disciplinary action. That is an action taken in anger and frustration. Most spankings are not taken in anger – they are delivered because a parent is disciplining the child. Most BEATINGS are in anger and such is an entirely different ballgame having no similarities at all with a disciplinary action.

Again, a tower of babble to make a distinction without a difference. I don't think your Pollyanna view is realistic as far as what goes on in the real world. At all. If a parent isn't inflicting pain and suffering out of anger -- what's the point? Why would you pretend to be angry when you're not? Doesn't add up.

Further, as regards belts -- read the OP.

A complete deflection, why am I not surprised. I should have expected such with the rest of your posts to others here completely missing the point in what can only be purposeful.

You are not even trying anymore Pogo.

"Deflection"??
You're making distinctions that I think are unconnected to the real world, and I said so. Would that these distinctions actually existed, but that's not how I see it at all. If you can't handle that my view and experience contrasts sharply with that idea (and I've got quite a few years on you) then oh well.

I feel I posted a lot of words for "not trying" but if I expended few on this particular post it's because I didn't see much in it.

 

[Pogo]

I went to school with someone whose mother was every bit as psychotic as my father. She never touched him...but every day, it was: moron, idiot, dullard, stupid, and the like. When he got a bad grade, she once told him "If I'd known you'd be this stupid, I would have aborted you." He was told that if he wasn't the valedictorian, he would be disowned.

His junior year, he got a C on a calculus test. (Note: that was a college-level course.) He wrote, "You're right, I'm stupid," on the test, went home, and hung himself in the garage. His 13-year-old sister (my wife's close friend) found his body.

His mother actually refused to pay for a funeral.

I went to school with a kid like that too, who also hung himself. Same story. He was a top student and smart as a whip. Apparently not smart enough.

Also came to the same conclusion as Luddly and Jaraxle about not procreating, for similar reasons. I know exactly what you guys mean.

So you folks are so eager to demonize parenting methods but you don't have kids yourselves?

Predictable.

It's one thing to civilly disagree (as many have) but some of you people are making false generalizations.

No, not "predictable"... the word is responsible.

 

[Pogo]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Yeah right. None of us have ever been children. We have no idea because we're "completely and totally ignorant" of what that could be like.

 

[Pogo]

I notice an unsurprising trend that most of those demanding spanking is evil/terrible or otherwise unacceptable tend to be people that do not have children.

I would note that you have no concept whatsoever about how to raise a child if you do not have one. That is a position born out of complete and total ignorance. Being a parent is NOT something that you teach or comes out of a manual.

Evidently, neither do people who have children.

From what I've read on this board, way too many of them have so little understanding, affection and control of their children, they actually hit them.

Now that is ignorance.

Perhaps you just don't understand. There is a distinction between spanking and hitting just as there is a distinction between poking fun and being mean.

Again -- if spanking is like "poking fun" then I have no clue what spanking is, as I've never seen it.