Dr Collins, top geneticist, and CHRISTIAN....

The Evolution of the Human Eye



Sean D. Pitman M.D.

© Aug. 2001











No discussion of evolution seems complete without bringing up the topic of the human eye. Despite its deceptively simple anatomical appearance, the human eye is an incredibly complicated structure. Even in this age of great scientific learning and understanding, the full complexity of the human eye has yet to be fully understood. It seems that with increased learning comes increased amazement in that the complexity that once seemed approachable continues to be just as incomprehensible as ever, if not more so. It is well documented that Darwin stood in wonder at the complexity of the eye, even from what little he knew of it in comparison to modern science. And yet, though he could not explain exactly how, he believed that such amazing complexity could be developed through a naturalistic process of evolution. Very small changes, selected as advantageous, could be passed on and multiplied over many generations to produce major miracles of complexity… such as the human eye.





Numerous Gradations



Obviously, Darwin was not crazy. His proposed theory of evolution and his basic explanations concerning the gradual development of complex structures, such as the eye, have convinced the vast majority of modern scientists. So, what exactly did he propose to explain the complexity of such structures as the human eye? Consider the following quote from Darwin.



Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.1



Darwin was at a loss to explain exactly what was happening, but he proposed a stepwise evolution of the human eye by showing examples of differences in the eyes of other creatures that seemed to be less complex. These differences were ordered in a stepwise fashion of progression from the most simple of eyes to the most complex. There did in fact appear to be a good number of intermediaries that linked one type of eye to another type in an evolutionary pattern. Some of the “simplest” eyes are nothing more than spots of a small number of light sensitive cells clustered together. This type of eye is only good for sensing light from dark. It cannot detect an image. From this simple eye, Darwin proceeded to demonstrate creatures with successively more and more complex eyes till the level of the complexity of the human eye was achieved.

This scenario certainly seems reasonable. However, many theories that initially seem reasonable on paper are later disproved. Such theories need direct experimental evidence to support them before they are accepted outright as “scientific.” Do complex structures such as eyes actually evolve in real life? As far as I could find, there is no documented evidence of anyone evolving an eye or even an eye spot through any sort of selection mechanism in any creature that did not have an eye before. Also, I have not seen documented evidence for the evolution of one type of eye into a different type of eye in any creature. As far as I can tell, no such evolution has ever been directly observed. Of course the argument is that such evolution takes thousands or even millions of years to occur. Maybe so, but without the ability for direct observation and testing, such assumptions, however reasonable, must maintain a higher degree of faith.





A Closer Look



The necessary faith in such a scenario increases even more when one considers the fact that even a simple light sensitive spot is extremely complicated, involving a huge number of specialized proteins and protein systems. These proteins and systems are integrated in such a way that if one were removed, vision would cease. In other words, for the miracle of vision to occur, even for a light sensitive spot, a great many different proteins and systems would have to evolve simultaneously, because without them all there at once, vision would not occur. For example, the first step in vision is the detection of photons. In order to detect a photon, specialized cells use a molecule called 11-cis-retinal. When a photon of light interacts with this molecule, it changes its shape almost instantly. It is now called trans-retinal. This change in shape causes a change in shape of another molecule called rhodopsin. The new shape of rhodopsin is called metarhodopsin II. Metarhodopsin II now sticks to another protein called transducin forcing it to drop an attached molecule called GDP and pick up another molecule called GTP. The GTP-transducin-metarhodopsin II molecule now attaches to another protein called phosphodiesterase. When this happens, phosphodiesterase cleaves molecules called cGMPs. This cleavage of cGMPs reduces their relative numbers in the cell. This reduction in cGMP is sensed by an ion channel. This ion channel shuts off the ability of the sodium ion to enter the cell. This blockage of sodium entrance into the cell causes an imbalance of charge across the cell’s membrane. This imbalance of charge sends an electrical current to the brain. The brain then interprets this signal and the result is called vision. Many other proteins are now needed to convert the proteins and other molecules just mentioned back to their original forms so that they can detect another photon of light and signal the brain. If any one of these proteins or molecules is missing, even in the simplest eye system, vision will not occur.2

The question now of course is, how could such a system evolve gradually? All the pieces must be in place simultaneously. For example, what good would it be for an earthworm that has no eyes to suddenly evolve the protein 11-cis-retinal in a small group or “spot” of cells on its head? These cells now have the ability to detect photons, but so what? What benefit is that to the earthworm? Now, lets say that somehow these cells develop all the needed proteins to activate an electrical charge across their membranes in response to a photon of light striking them. So what?! What good is it for them to be able to establish an electrical gradient across their membranes if there is no nervous pathway to the worm’s minute brain? Now, what if this pathway did happen to suddenly evolve and such a signal could be sent to the worm’s brain. So what?! How is the worm going to know what to do with this signal? It will have to learn what this signal means. Learning and interpretation are very complicated processes involving a great many other proteins in other unique systems. Now the earthworm, in one lifetime, must evolve the ability to pass on this ability to interpret vision to its offspring. If it does not pass on this ability, the offspring must learn as well or vision offers no advantage to them. All of these wonderful processes need regulation. No function is beneficial unless it can be regulated (turned off and on). If the light sensitive cells cannot be turned off once they are turned on, vision does not occur. This regulatory ability is also very complicated involving a great many proteins and other molecules… all of which must be in place initially for vision to be beneficial.

Now, what if we do not have to explain the origin of the first light sensitive “spot.” The evolution of more complex eyes is simple from that point onward… right? Not exactly. Every different component that requires unique proteins doing unique functions requires a unique gene in the DNA of that creature. Neither the genes nor the proteins that they code for function alone. The existence of a unique gene or protein means that a unique system of other genes and proteins are involved with its function. In such a system, the absence of any one of the system genes, proteins, or molecules means that the whole system becomes functionless. Considering the fact that the evolution of a single gene or protein has never been observed or reproduced in the laboratory, such apparently small differences suddenly become quite significant.





The "Design Flaw" Argument



Oh, but what about the “design flaws” of the human eye? It is a common argument in favor of evolution that no intelligent designer would design anything with flaws. Evolution on the other hand, being a naturalistic process of trial and error, easily explains the existence of flaws in the natural world. Although many are convinced by this argument, this argument in and of itself assumes the motives and capabilities of the designer. To say that everything designed should match our individual conceptions of perfection before we can detect design, is clearly misguided.

Some might question the design of a Picasso painting, but no one questions the fact that it was designed, even having never met Picasso. A child might build a box car for racing the neighborhood kids in a box car derby. His car might not meet anyone’s idea of perfection, but most would not question the idea that it was designed. Or, someone might deliberately alter the design of a previous designer for personal reasons. This alteration itself is designed by a new designer and can be detected as such. Although not “beneficial” to overall function or the intentions of the original designer, the alteration might still be understood to be designed. For example, if someone slices the tires on a car with a razor blade, would it be accurate for someone walking by afterward to automatically assume that an evolutionary process was at work because of the presence of this current supposed design flaw? While a sliced up tire might not seem logical for a designer of tires to create, the flaw itself does not automatically rule out a designer. A very intelligent designer of flaws might be at work and the calling card might be the abundant evidence of high intelligence and purpose. Or, design flaws might be the result of natural decay and not representative of the original purpose or creation of the designer. A car tire that has 50,000 miles on it might have a few more “flaws” than it had when it was first made. Everything wears out. People grow old, have low back pain, arthritis, senile dementia, and dental decay. Are these design flaws or the wearing out of a great design that just did not last forever? Simply put, just because someone can think of a better design or an improvement upon an old design, does not mean that the old design was not… designed.

Another problem with finding design flaws in nature is that we do not know all the information there is to know. What seems to us to be a design flaw initially, might turn out to be an advantage once we learn more about the needs of a particular system or creature… or designer. In any case, lets take a closer look at the supposed design flaws in the human eye.

In his 1986 book, “The Blind Watchmaker,” the famous evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins posses this design flaw argument for the human eye:



“Any engineer would naturally assume that the photocells would point towards the light, with their wires leading backwards towards the brain. He would laugh at any suggestion that the photocells might point away, from the light, with their wires departing on the side nearest the light. Yet this is exactly what happens in all vertebrate retinas. Each photocell is, in effect, wired in backwards, with its wire sticking out on the side nearest the light. The wire has to travel over the surface of the retina to a point where it dives through a hole in the retina (the so-called ‘blind spot’) to join the optic nerve. This means that the light, instead of being granted an unrestricted passage to the photocells, has to pass through a forest of connecting wires, presumably suffering at least some attenuation and distortion (actually, probably not much but, still, it is the principle of the thing that would offend any tidy-minded engineer). I don’t know the exact explanation for this strange state of affairs. The relevant period of evolution is so long ago.” 3







Dawkins’s argument certainly does seem intuitive. However, the problem with relying strictly on intuition is that intuition alone is not scientific. Many a well thought out hypothesis has seemed flawless on paper, but in when put to the test, it turns out not to work as well as was hoped. Unforeseen problems and difficulties arise. New and innovative solutions, not previously considered, became all important to obtaining the desired function. Dawkins’s problem is not one of reasonable intuition, but one of a lack of testability of his hypothesis. However reasonable it may appear, unless Dawkins is able to test his assumptions to see if in fact “verted” is better than “inverted” retinal construction for the needs of the human, this hypothesis of his remains untested and therefore unsupported by the scientific method. Beyond this problem, even if he were to prove scientifically that a verted retina is in fact more reasonable for human vision, this still would not scientifically disprove design. As previously described, proving flaws in design according to a personal understanding or need does not disprove the hypothesis that this flawed design was none-the-less designed.

Since a designer has not been excluded by this argument of Dawkins, the naturalistic theory of evolution is not an automatic default. However true the theory of evolution might be, it is not supported scientifically without testability. This is what evolutionists need to provide and this is exactly what is lacking. The strength of design theory rests, not in its ability to show perfection in design, but in its ability to point toward the statistical improbability of a naturalistic method to explain the complexity of life that is evident in such structures as the human eye. Supposed flaws do not eliminate this statistical challenge to evolutionary theories. Dawkins’s error is to assume that the thinking, knowledge and motivation of all designers are similar to his thinking, knowledge and motivation.

Dawkins’s problems are further exacerbated by his own admission that the inverted retina works very well. His argument is not primarily one that discusses the technical failures of the inverted retina, but of aesthetics. The inverted retina just does not seem right to him regardless of the fact that the inverted retina is the retina used by the animals with the most acute (image forming) vision systems in the world.





Verted vs. Inverted



The most advanced verted retinas in the world belong to the octopus and squid (cephalopods). An average retina of an octopus contains 20 million photoreceptor cells. The average human retina contains around 126 million photoreceptor cells. This is nothing compared to birds who have as much as 10 times as many photoreceptors and two to five times as many cones (cones detect color) as humans have. 4,5 Humans have a place on the retina called a “fovea centralis.” The fovea is a central area in the central part of the human retina called the macula. In this area humans have a much higher concentration photoreceptors, especially cones. Also, in this particular area, the blood vessels, nerves and ganglion cells are displaced so that they do not interpose themselves between the light source and the photoreceptor cells, thus eliminating even this minimal interference to the direct path of light. This creates an area of high visual acuity with decreasing visual acuity towards the periphery of the human retina. The cones in the macula (and elsewhere) also have a 1:1 ratio to the ganglion cells. Ganglion cells help to preprocess the information received by the retinal photoreceptors. For the rods of the retina, a single ganglion cell handles information from many, even hundreds of rod cells, but this is not true of cones whose highest concentration is in the macula. The macula provides information needed to maximize image detail, and the information obtained by the peripheral areas of the retina helps to provide both spatial and contextual information. Compared with the periphery, the macula is 100 times more sensitive to small features than in the rest of the retina. This enables the human eye to focus in on a specific area in the field of vision without being distracted by peripheral vision too much.6

Bird retinas, on the other hand, do not have a macula or fovea centralis. Visual acuity is equal in all areas. Octopus retinas also lack a fovea centralis, but do have what is called a linea centralis. The linea centralis forms a band of higher acuity horizontally across the retina of the octopus. A unique feature of octopod eyes is that regardless of the position of their bodies, their eyes always maintain the same relative position to the gravitational field of the earth using an organ called a statocyst. The reason for this appears to be related to the fact that octopods retinas are set up to detect horizontal and vertical projections in their visual fields.7 This necessitates a predictable way to judge horizontal and verticalness. Octopods use this ability, not so much to form images as vertebrates do, but to detect patterns of movement. It is interesting to note that regardless of the shape of an object, octopods will respond to certain movements as they would to prey that make similar movements. However, if their normal prey is not moving, an octopus will not generally respond.8,9 In this respect, the vision of octopods is similar to an insect-type compound eye. The octopod eye has in fact been referred to as a compound eye with a single lens.10 In some other respects, it is also more simple in its information processing than is the vertebrate eye. The photoreceptors consist only of rods, and the information transmitted by these rods does not pass through any sort of peripheral processing ganglion cell(s).11 Octopod eyes are not set up for the perception of small detail, but for the perception of patterns and motion thus eliminating the need for the very high processing power seen in human and other vertebrate eyes.

The high processing power of human and other vertebrate eyes is not cheep. It is very expensive and the body pays a high price for the maintenance of such a high level of detection and processing power. The retina has the highest energy demands/metabolic rate of any tissue in the entire body. The oxygen consumption of the human retina (per gram of tissue) is 50% greater than the kidney, 300% greater than the cerebral cortex (of the brain), and 600% greater than cardiac muscle. These are numbers for the retina as a whole. The photoreceptor cell layer, taken alone, has a significantly higher metabolic demand.12,13 All this energy must be supplied quickly and efficiently. Directly beneath each photoreceptor lies the choroid layer. This layer contains a dense capillary bed called the choriocapillaris. The only thing separating the capillaries from direct contact with the photoreceptors is the very thin (one cell thick) retinal-pigmented epithelial (RPE) layer. These capillaries are much larger than average being 18-50 microns in diameter. They provide a huge relative blood supply per gram of tissue and as much as 80% of the total blood supply for the entire eye. On the other hand, the retinal artery that passes through the “blind spot” and distributes across the anterior retina supplying the needs of the neural layer, contributes only 5% of the total blood supply to the retina.15 The close proximity of the choroidal blood supply to the photoreceptor cells without any extra intervening tissue or space such as nerves and ganglion cells (ie: from a “verted” system) allows the most rapid and efficient delivery of vital nutrients and the removal of the tremendous quantities of waste generated. The cells that remove this waste and re-supply several needed elements to the photoreceptors are the RPE cells.

Everyday rods and cones shed around 10% of their segmented disks. Rods average 700 to 1,000 disks while cones average 1,000 to 1,200 disks.16 This in itself creates a very large metabolic demand on the RPE cells who must recycle this huge number of shed disks. Conveniently, these disks do not have to travel too far to reach the RPE cells since they are sloughed from the end of the photoreceptor that directly contacts the RPE cell layer. If these disks were sloughed off in the opposite direction (toward the lens and cornea), their high level of sloughing would soon create a cloudy haze in front of the photoreceptors, which could not be cleared as rapidly as would be needed to maintain the highest degree of visual clarity. This high rate of recycling maintains the very high sensitivity of the photoreceptors. RPE cells also contain retinol isomerase. Trans-retinal must be converted back to 11-cis-retinal in the visual molecular cascade. With the help of vitamin-A and retinol isomerase, the RPE cells are able to do this and then transfer these rejuvenated molecules back to the photoreceptors.17 The funny thing is, the RPE cells in the retinas of cephalopods do not have retinol isomerase.18 However, the retinas of all sighted vertebrates do have this important enzyme. All of these functions require large amounts of energy and so the RPE cells, like the photoreceptor cells, must be in close proximity to a very good blood supply, which of course they are. Also, as the name implies, RPE cells are pigmented with a very dark/black pigment called melanin. This melanin absorbs scattered light, thus preventing stray reflections of photons and the indirect activation of photoreceptors. This aids significantly in the creation of a clear/sharp image on the retina. There is a different system for some other vertebrates such as the cat who have a reflective layer called the tapetum lucidus, which allows for better night vision (six times better than humans) but poor day vision.19

So we see that inverted retinas seem to have some at least marginal if not significant advantages based on the needs of their owners. We also have the evidence that the best eyes in the world for image detection and interpretation are all inverted as far as their retinal organization. As far as the disadvantages are concerned, they are generally not of practical significance in comparison to overall relative function. Even Dawkins seems to admit that his uneasiness is mostly one of aesthetics. Consider the following admission from Dawkins:



With one exception, all the eyes I have so far illustrated have had their photocells in front of the nerves connecting them to the brain. This is the obvious way to do it, but it is not universal. The flatworm … keeps its photocells apparently on the wrong side of their connecting nerves. So does our own vertebrate eye. The photocells point backwards, away from the light. This is not as silly as it sounds. Since they are very tiny and transparent, it doesn’t much matter which way they point: most photons will go straight through and then run the gauntlet of pigment-laden baffles waiting to catch them.20





The Error of Presumption



To say then that the human eye is definite proof of a lack thoughtful design, is a bit presumptuous I would think. This seems to be especially true when one considers the fact that the best of modern human science and engineering has not produced even a fraction of the computing and imaging capability of the human eye. How can we then, ignorant as we must be concerning such miracles of complex function, hope to accurately judge the relative fitness or logic of something so far beyond our own capabilities? Should someone who cannot even come close to understanding or creating the object that they are observing think to critique not to mention disparage the work that that lies before them? This would be like a six-year-old child trying to tell an engineer how to design a skyscraper or that one of his buildings is “better” than the others. Until Dawkins or someone else can actually make something as good or better than the human eye, I would invite them to consider the silliness of their efforts in trying to make value judgments on such things… such things that are obviously among most beautiful and beyond the most astounding works of human genius and art in existence.





Detecting Design



Then, if and when humans do achieve and surpass this level of creativity and genius and are able to experimentally prove the existence of actual defects in the function of human eyes and other such things, would this evidence rule out a designer? No. Intuitively, such complexity as we see in living things seems to speak for design in that it has the obvious appearance of design. Richard Dawkins as much as admits this in the title of his book, "The Blind Watchmaker." For those who wish to propose a naturalistic mechanism to explain complexity, the burden of proof cannot be relieved by appealing to supposed design "flaws." The best that evolutionist can do to disprove the theory of design is to demonstrate some real examples of evolution in action where a purely naturalistic mechanism actually works to form a comparably complex function of interacting parts. I have yet to see this done. As it currently stands, the theory of evolution is based only on correlation and inference, but not on actual demonstration. The best examples of evolution in action deal with the evolution of very simple enzymatic functions, such as the evolution of the enzyme galactosidase in E. coli... and even this evolution has its clear limitations. I have yet to see an "irreducibly complex" system of function evolve were the function in question requires more than a few hundred fairly specified amino acid "parts" working together at the same time. For example, the flagellar bacterial motility system requires several thousand fairly specified amino acid "parts" in the form of a couple dozen individual proteins, working together in unified haromony at the same time. Of course, there are many different kinds of bacterial motility systems possible, but all of them require several thousand fairly specified amino acids working together at the same time before the function of motility can be realized. Such a level of functional complexity has never been observed to evolve through any sort of naturalistic process.





Not Much Else to Go On . . .



If one looks carefully at the average time required for the evolution of such a multipart system of function, Dawkins and other evolutionists will most likely be waiting for a very long time for any experimental confirmation. No wonder hypothetical claims of design flaws are so common. There does not seem to be too much else to go on as far as a significant example of real evolution in action. The statistics are against such a process actually working in real life (kind of like a perpetual motion machine). So, evolutionists are left with the design flaw argument - an argument that relies upon the assumed understanding of the identity, motives, and abilities of any possible designer or collection of designers. Such arguments prove nothing except for the arrogance of those who use such arguments - especially when the very ones proposing such arguments cannot make anything even remotely comparable to much less better than that which they are disparaging.







1. Darwin, Charles. Origin of Species (1872), 6th ed., New York University Press, New York, 1988.

2. Behe, Michael J., Darwin’s Black Box, Simon & Schuster Inc., 1996.

3. Dawkins, R., 1986. The Blind Watchmaker: Why the evidence of evolution reveals a universe without design. W.W. Norton and Company, New York, p. 93.

4. J. Z. Young, “The Anatomy of the Nervous System,” Octopus Vulgaris (New York: Oxford University Press, 1971), 441.

5. Frank Gill, Ornithology (New York: W. H. Freeman, 1995), 189.

6. Timothy Goldsmith, “Optimization, Constraint, and History in the Evolution of Eyes,” The Quarterly Review of Biology 65:3 (Sept. 1990): 281–2.

7. Robert D. Barnes, Invertebrate Zoology (Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 1980), 454.

8. H. S. Hamilton, “Convergent evolution-Do the Octopus and Human eyes qualify?” CRSQ 24 (1987): 82–5.

9. Bernhard Grzimek, Grzimek’s Animal Life Encyclopedia (New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Co., 1972), 191.

10. B. V. Budelmann, “Cephalopod Sense Organs, Nerves and the Brain: Adaptations for high performance and life style,” in Physiology of Cephalopod Mollusks, ed. Hans Portner, et al. (Australia: Gordon and Breach Pub., 1994), 15.

11. Martin John Wells, Octopus: Physiology and Behavior of an Advanced Invertebrate (London: Chapman and Hall, 1978), 150.

12. Futterman, S. (1975). Metabolism and Photochemistry in the Retina, in Adler’s Physiology of the Eye, 6th edition, ed. R.A. Moses. St. Louis: C.V. Mosby Company, pp. 406-419; p. 406.

13. Whikehart, D.R. (1994). Biochemistry of the Eye. Boston: Butterworth-Heinemann, p. 73.

14. J.M. Risco and W. Noanitaya, Invest. Opthalmol. Vis. Sci. 19 [1980]:5.

15. Henkind, P., Hansen, R.I., Szalay, J. (1979). Ocular Circulation, in Physiology of the Human Eye and the Visual System, ed. R.R. Records. Maryland: Harper & Row Publishers, pp. 98-155; p. 119

16. Dean Bok, “Retinal Photoreceptor disc shedding and pigment epithelium phagocytosis,” in The Retinal Pigment Epithelium, 148.

17. T. Hewitt and Rubin Adler, “The Retinal Pigment Epithelium and Interphotoreceptor Matrix: Structure and Specialized Functions” in The Retina, 58.

18. D. B. Bridges, “Distribution of Retinol Isomerase in Vertebrate Eyes and its Emergence During Retinal Development,” Vision Research 29:12 (1989): 1711–7.

19. M. Ali and A. Klyne, Vision in Vertebrates, New York: Plenum Press, 1985.

20. Richard Dawkins, Climbing Mount Improbable (New York: W. W. Norton, 1996), 170.



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The Evolution of the Human Eye
 
Evolutionary biologist known for his theory of how species develop.

By the way this is entirely irrelevant, he was wrong at this count if the quote is true or to be believed. The eye DID evolve, and we've known this since Darwin's time.

By the way the other quote was Dawkins.

There was only one quote that you replied to me with unless I missed it.

Yeah it might have been someone else but it was dawkins kinda directed at cbirch i believe.
 
YWC you ignore the wiki and the 32 references on the page I asked you to address, but then expect everyone else to read your long sources.


Why the obvious hypocrisy?
 
Another quote for you fellas.

"The Blind Watchmaker." For those who wish to propose a naturalistic mechanism to explain complexity, the burden of proof cannot be relieved by appealing to supposed design "flaws." The best that evolutionist can do to disprove the theory of design is to demonstrate some real examples of evolution in action where a purely naturalistic mechanism actually works to form a comparably complex function of interacting parts. I have yet to see this done.

There's no scientific evidence for the theory of design, only rhetoric based on someone's beliefs and misunderstandings of the actual evidence for evolution. There's no reason to even bother disproving it, given the fact that's it not a credible scientific theory.

Yeah if someone has an open mind they can see the order in the universe and as well as how the human anatomy came about. I was just trying to reason with you fellas but you seem hell bent on believing theory over actual documented evidence.

Not one of you have tried to refute the mutation argument that totally refutes the theory of Neo. I don't think any of you noticed that i presented two arguments. Mutations are not the answer,it started with Frech biologist pierre grasse still today it is not the answer.

1. The amount of mutations it would take for human evolution would take well over 6 million years for human evolution to occur. by the rate we see mutations happening naturally not figures reached by inducing mutations.

2. Then if we go to the other argument knowing what we know about mutations,we would go extinct within 100,000 years . Sorry that is way short of your time frame and the other argument shows the supposed age of the earth don't support your theory.

The only argument from your side is a mutation in bacteria, that helped fight disease. but in the end comes at a cost to the organism. No one is showing enough beneficial mutations for macro-evolution to take place. but the two arguments above,are pretty much, game set and match.

Evolutionary theory asserts that random mutations (changes in the DNA code), followed by natural selection, can result in complicated and functional protein structures. But mutations are almost always harmful. As Nobel Prize winner H.J. Muller concedes, "t is entirely in line with the accidental nature of natural mutations that … the vast majority of them (are) detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing, just as changes accidentally introduced into any artificial mechanism are predominantly harmful to its useful operation." French evolutionist Pierre-Paul Grasse noted, "[n]o matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution." Similarly, leading biologist Lynn Margulis (who opposes intelligent design) argues that “new mutations don't create new species; they create offspring that are impaired” and writes that “Mutations, in summary, tend to induce sickness, death, or deficiencies. No evidence in the vast literature of heredity changes shows unambiguous evidence that random mutation itself, even with geographical isolation of populations, leads to speciation.”

DNA consists of a complex code formed of four “letters” that are arranged into three letter “words.” Each word codes for a subunit of a protein, an amino acid. The proteins are analogous to complex machines, in that they have moving parts that repetitively perform a task. Several classes of mutations are shown above, but even in this simple illustration it is obvious that random changes in code do not increase the information content, making it unlikely that DNA mutations are responsible for the complex specificity of life.

One oft-cited “beneficial” mutation is bacterial antibiotic resistance. Yet antibiotic resistance does not introduce new information into the genome (see right). This is microevolution because it involves only minor change “within a species” and does not add information. Antibiotic resistance is not macroevolution and does not explain how new biological structures arise; it never results in one bacterial species becoming another. Interestingly, antibiotic resistant bacteria face a net “fitness cost” and are weakened by the very mutation that made them drug-resistant.

Primer: Mutations in a Nutshell
 
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YWC you ignore the wiki and the 32 references on the page I asked you to address, but then expect everyone else to read your long sources.


Why the obvious hypocrisy?

I will look it over and respond,but really it is not gonna be nothing i have not read before.

But for the sake of being fair i will look it over.
 
YWC you ignore the wiki and the 32 references on the page I asked you to address, but then expect everyone else to read your long sources.


Why the obvious hypocrisy?

I will look it over and respond,but really it is not gonna be nothing i have not read before.

But for the sake of being fair i will look it over.

and everything you've posted is all stuff we've already seen from bible scholars posing as biologists.
 
YWC you ignore the wiki and the 32 references on the page I asked you to address, but then expect everyone else to read your long sources.


Why the obvious hypocrisy?

I will look it over and respond,but really it is not gonna be nothing i have not read before.

But for the sake of being fair i will look it over.

and everything you've posted is all stuff we've already seen from bible scholars posing as biologists.

Really,you make light of the doctorate degrees they possess you do the same with me,why ?

I looked at what was posted from wiki. You do understand your side have to attempt to answer how the eye's could have evolved right ? Well that is what they did they are trying to offer an explanation. They have no proof and it's easy to see that by reading what written there on wiki.

Let me give you a hint to know they are using theory to make their case. When you use terms like maybe,could,could be,may suggest, that means they don't know. Come on guy's what is known, is the eye is very complex, and anyone with an open mind can see evidence that it shows design.

If not, you should easily be able to show how natural selection can weed out traits that are not necessary and replace them with superior traits. How can natural selection know the difference between a hamrful mutation and a beneficial mutation ? Does Natural Selection have eyes to discern between the two ? Is Natural selection a process that thinks and possesses the ability to reason ?

That is exactly what you're saying, and that is what your sources are saying. Let me tell you i agree a thinking process was used in bringing forth life and the complexity of that life, but it's not how your theory say's it happened.
 
YWC you ignore the wiki and the 32 references on the page I asked you to address, but then expect everyone else to read your long sources.


Why the obvious hypocrisy?

I will look it over and respond,but really it is not gonna be nothing i have not read before.

But for the sake of being fair i will look it over.

and everything you've posted is all stuff we've already seen from bible scholars posing as biologists.

Well what are your answers to it ?
 
I will look it over and respond,but really it is not gonna be nothing i have not read before.

But for the sake of being fair i will look it over.

and everything you've posted is all stuff we've already seen from bible scholars posing as biologists.

Really,you make light of the doctorate degrees they possess you do the same with me,why ?

I looked at what was posted from wiki. You do understand your side have to attempt to answer how the eye's could have evolved right ? Well that is what they did they are trying to offer an explanation. They have no proof and it's easy to see that by reading what written there on wiki.

Let me give you a hint to know they are using theory to make their case. When you use terms like maybe,could,could be,may suggest, that means they don't know. Come on guy's what is known, is the eye is very complex, and anyone with an open mind can see evidence that it shows design.

If not, you should easily be able to show how natural selection can weed out traits that are not necessary and replace them with superior traits. How can natural selection know the difference between a hamrful mutation and a beneficial mutation ? Does Natural Selection have eyes to discern between the two ? Is Natural selection a process that thinks and possesses the ability to reason ?

That is exactly what you're saying, and that is what your sources are saying. Let me tell you i agree a thinking process was used in bringing forth life and the complexity of that life, but it's not how your theory say's it happened.

Natural selection weeds out the weak, if you and I were out in the wild and you could run faster and a wolf chases us, I'm going to be eaten and you'll be able to pass on your beneficial traits that include running fast while my slow genes were the wolves dinner.

Your view is based on what the Bible says, not based on science.

That's why you see deep sea fish with eye sockets and eye buds but no functioning eyes, they evolved from fish working eyes but in the deep sea they no longer needed them and thus evolved the current trait of no working eyes.
 
I find, and most logical people would agree, that if your going to make a decision about anything you should approach the topic from a totally clean perspective. So if were going to talk about intelligent design, i sure hope your argument isnt going to be guided by the christian relation story. The only reason you believe that is because your parents believed it, the same for them, and so on for generations. There is no evidence christian genesis, none at all.

If were going to talk about just how intelligent and complex life is, i would love to.

Looking at life from a purely factual standpoint, i dont exactly see a creator. I do see complexity, but when looking at any specific system its not difficult to understand how it works.

The circulatory system seems complex, but our 4 chambered heart and closed circulatory system are just the result of gradual changes built upon single chambered open circulatory systems, which themselves probably have their roots in the vascular system of plants. I dont think most people would argue that the vascular system within plants is terribly complicated.

Look at the nervous system and your brain. You see a soul for some reason, i see a complex system of interconnecting neurons. All of your complex thought takes place within your cerebral hemispheres and your cortex. Your emotional thought comes from the lower brain. The modern brain has is roots in the reptilian brain, the spinal cord is just a slightly more complex version of the notochord.

Even a single cell isnt as complex as you think. A prokaryote is just a cell membrane enclosing DNA with certain enzymes, maybe very primitive structures. That is not complex. Are you telling me the progression from virus (not life) to a prokaryote (simple cell) to a eukaryote (complex cells) is impossible? I find it rather easy to believe, considering all the similarities and evidence.

The complexity you talk about does exist, of course life is complex. But the only reason you assume it is the result of a creator is because you dont understand the basics of how it works.
 
Another quote for you fellas.

"The Blind Watchmaker." For those who wish to propose a naturalistic mechanism to explain complexity, the burden of proof cannot be relieved by appealing to supposed design "flaws." The best that evolutionist can do to disprove the theory of design is to demonstrate some real examples of evolution in action where a purely naturalistic mechanism actually works to form a comparably complex function of interacting parts. I have yet to see this done.

There's no scientific evidence for the theory of design, only rhetoric based on someone's beliefs and misunderstandings of the actual evidence for evolution. There's no reason to even bother disproving it, given the fact that's it not a credible scientific theory.

Yeah if someone has an open mind they can see the order in the universe and as well as how the human anatomy came about. I was just trying to reason with you fellas but you seem hell bent on believing theory over actual documented evidence.

Which I have provided you with, many times over. And you have never given a reason for discounting, and just ignore it for no reason. Just saying it doesn't prove anything when in actuality it does, doesn't make you correct.

Not one of you have tried to refute the mutation argument that totally refutes the theory of Neo. I don't think any of you noticed that i presented two arguments. Mutations are not the answer,it started with Frech biologist pierre grasse still today it is not the answer.

1. The amount of mutations it would take for human evolution would take well over 6 million years for human evolution to occur. by the rate we see mutations happening naturally not figures reached by inducing mutations.

You do realize that this argument is entirely nonsensical in disproving evolution correct? For starters, defining "human evolution" is extremely vague. What is human evolution and what is occurring over millions of years? From one cell to human

No matter what way you take it, the genus homo is 2 million years old, with recent specimens possibly even as old as 3 million years old. Going further, we're descended from primates, who are among the oldest surviving mammals (at 65 million years old). So I'm not sure how this proves your point of evolution being false.

2. Then if we go to the other argument knowing what we know about mutations,we would go extinct within 100,000 years . Sorry that is way short of your time frame and the other argument shows the supposed age of the earth don't support your theory.

Sorry, um what? Why must we go extinct due to mutations within 100,000 years? Is this your gross and blatant inaccuracy about beneficial mutations being weeded out, no new information being added, and only the negative mutations remaining again? Because I've said more than once to you, natural selection does not work that way.

The only argument from your side is a mutation in bacteria, that helped fight disease. but in the end comes at a cost to the organism. No one is showing enough beneficial mutations for macro-evolution to take place. but the two arguments above,are pretty much, game set and match.

No it's not, I've provided more evidence for macro evolution than bacteria. You don't really understand what natural selection is or how it works do you?

Evolutionary theory asserts that random mutations (changes in the DNA code), followed by natural selection, can result in complicated and functional protein structures. But mutations are almost always harmful. As Nobel Prize winner H.J. Muller concedes, "t is entirely in line with the accidental nature of natural mutations that … the vast majority of them (are) detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing, just as changes accidentally introduced into any artificial mechanism are predominantly harmful to its useful operation." French evolutionist Pierre-Paul Grasse noted, "[n]o matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution." Similarly, leading biologist Lynn Margulis (who opposes intelligent design) argues that “new mutations don't create new species; they create offspring that are impaired” and writes that “Mutations, in summary, tend to induce sickness, death, or deficiencies. No evidence in the vast literature of heredity changes shows unambiguous evidence that random mutation itself, even with geographical isolation of populations, leads to speciation.”

DNA consists of a complex code formed of four “letters” that are arranged into three letter “words.” Each word codes for a subunit of a protein, an amino acid. The proteins are analogous to complex machines, in that they have moving parts that repetitively perform a task. Several classes of mutations are shown above, but even in this simple illustration it is obvious that random changes in code do not increase the information content, making it unlikely that DNA mutations are responsible for the complex specificity of life.

One oft-cited “beneficial” mutation is bacterial antibiotic resistance. Yet antibiotic resistance does not introduce new information into the genome (see right). This is microevolution because it involves only minor change “within a species” and does not add information. Antibiotic resistance is not macroevolution and does not explain how new biological structures arise; it never results in one bacterial species becoming another. Interestingly, antibiotic resistant bacteria face a net “fitness cost” and are weakened by the very mutation that made them drug-resistant.


Why should I even bother formulating a reply to this when you've never even discussed the faults of the actual evidence I've posted?
 
and everything you've posted is all stuff we've already seen from bible scholars posing as biologists.

Really,you make light of the doctorate degrees they possess you do the same with me,why ?

I looked at what was posted from wiki. You do understand your side have to attempt to answer how the eye's could have evolved right ? Well that is what they did they are trying to offer an explanation. They have no proof and it's easy to see that by reading what written there on wiki.

Let me give you a hint to know they are using theory to make their case. When you use terms like maybe,could,could be,may suggest, that means they don't know. Come on guy's what is known, is the eye is very complex, and anyone with an open mind can see evidence that it shows design.

If not, you should easily be able to show how natural selection can weed out traits that are not necessary and replace them with superior traits. How can natural selection know the difference between a hamrful mutation and a beneficial mutation ? Does Natural Selection have eyes to discern between the two ? Is Natural selection a process that thinks and possesses the ability to reason ?

That is exactly what you're saying, and that is what your sources are saying. Let me tell you i agree a thinking process was used in bringing forth life and the complexity of that life, but it's not how your theory say's it happened.

Natural selection weeds out the weak, if you and I were out in the wild and you could run faster and a wolf chases us, I'm going to be eaten and you'll be able to pass on your beneficial traits that include running fast while my slow genes were the wolves dinner.

Your view is based on what the Bible says, not based on science.

That's why you see deep sea fish with eye sockets and eye buds but no functioning eyes, they evolved from fish working eyes but in the deep sea they no longer needed them and thus evolved the current trait of no working eyes.

I agree with your view on how natural selection works ,but how does it work biologically ? How does it know we need a heart,lungs,blood,veins,eye's,brain,and many other things that we need to have a productive life ?

What is the chance of a non-intelligent process knowing these things ? Are we gonna reason it just happened by chance ?

Wait, how do you know the fish that had no eye's did not need them ? How do you know that it was not just a result of a harmful mutation ?
 
There's no scientific evidence for the theory of design, only rhetoric based on someone's beliefs and misunderstandings of the actual evidence for evolution. There's no reason to even bother disproving it, given the fact that's it not a credible scientific theory.

Yeah if someone has an open mind they can see the order in the universe and as well as how the human anatomy came about. I was just trying to reason with you fellas but you seem hell bent on believing theory over actual documented evidence.

Which I have provided you with, many times over. And you have never given a reason for discounting, and just ignore it for no reason. Just saying it doesn't prove anything when in actuality it does, doesn't make you correct.



You do realize that this argument is entirely nonsensical in disproving evolution correct? For starters, defining "human evolution" is extremely vague. What is human evolution and what is occurring over millions of years? From one cell to human

No matter what way you take it, the genus homo is 2 million years old, with recent specimens possibly even as old as 3 million years old. Going further, we're descended from primates, who are among the oldest surviving mammals (at 65 million years old). So I'm not sure how this proves your point of evolution being false.



Sorry, um what? Why must we go extinct due to mutations within 100,000 years? Is this your gross and blatant inaccuracy about beneficial mutations being weeded out, no new information being added, and only the negative mutations remaining again? Because I've said more than once to you, natural selection does not work that way.

The only argument from your side is a mutation in bacteria, that helped fight disease. but in the end comes at a cost to the organism. No one is showing enough beneficial mutations for macro-evolution to take place. but the two arguments above,are pretty much, game set and match.

No it's not, I've provided more evidence for macro evolution than bacteria. You don't really understand what natural selection is or how it works do you?

Evolutionary theory asserts that random mutations (changes in the DNA code), followed by natural selection, can result in complicated and functional protein structures. But mutations are almost always harmful. As Nobel Prize winner H.J. Muller concedes, "t is entirely in line with the accidental nature of natural mutations that … the vast majority of them (are) detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing, just as changes accidentally introduced into any artificial mechanism are predominantly harmful to its useful operation." French evolutionist Pierre-Paul Grasse noted, "[n]o matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution." Similarly, leading biologist Lynn Margulis (who opposes intelligent design) argues that “new mutations don't create new species; they create offspring that are impaired” and writes that “Mutations, in summary, tend to induce sickness, death, or deficiencies. No evidence in the vast literature of heredity changes shows unambiguous evidence that random mutation itself, even with geographical isolation of populations, leads to speciation.”

DNA consists of a complex code formed of four “letters” that are arranged into three letter “words.” Each word codes for a subunit of a protein, an amino acid. The proteins are analogous to complex machines, in that they have moving parts that repetitively perform a task. Several classes of mutations are shown above, but even in this simple illustration it is obvious that random changes in code do not increase the information content, making it unlikely that DNA mutations are responsible for the complex specificity of life.

One oft-cited “beneficial” mutation is bacterial antibiotic resistance. Yet antibiotic resistance does not introduce new information into the genome (see right). This is microevolution because it involves only minor change “within a species” and does not add information. Antibiotic resistance is not macroevolution and does not explain how new biological structures arise; it never results in one bacterial species becoming another. Interestingly, antibiotic resistant bacteria face a net “fitness cost” and are weakened by the very mutation that made them drug-resistant.


Why should I even bother formulating a reply to this when you've never even discussed the faults of the actual evidence I've posted?


I have posted the reasons did you read them ?

Look back they went into detail by the amount of mutations that happen naturally not induced. And by the results we see that comes from mutations. Even scientist on your side know these arguments are a problem for the theory.

Look back through the thread they go into detail.

When we induced mutations in the drosophila most were harmful and all flies became weaker and died off prematurely. We also have observed many mutations that happened naturally. There was not much difference from the mutations that were induced and the ones that happened naturally.

By there being many more harmful and neutral mutations it is overwhelming in number compared to beneficial mutations. But even the beneficial mutations come at a price. How is a mutation a benefit to me if i have to have a blood disorder to fight off a disease ?
 
There's no scientific evidence for the theory of design, only rhetoric based on someone's beliefs and misunderstandings of the actual evidence for evolution. There's no reason to even bother disproving it, given the fact that's it not a credible scientific theory.

Yeah if someone has an open mind they can see the order in the universe and as well as how the human anatomy came about. I was just trying to reason with you fellas but you seem hell bent on believing theory over actual documented evidence.

Which I have provided you with, many times over. And you have never given a reason for discounting, and just ignore it for no reason. Just saying it doesn't prove anything when in actuality it does, doesn't make you correct.



You do realize that this argument is entirely nonsensical in disproving evolution correct? For starters, defining "human evolution" is extremely vague. What is human evolution and what is occurring over millions of years? From one cell to human

No matter what way you take it, the genus homo is 2 million years old, with recent specimens possibly even as old as 3 million years old. Going further, we're descended from primates, who are among the oldest surviving mammals (at 65 million years old). So I'm not sure how this proves your point of evolution being false.



Sorry, um what? Why must we go extinct due to mutations within 100,000 years? Is this your gross and blatant inaccuracy about beneficial mutations being weeded out, no new information being added, and only the negative mutations remaining again? Because I've said more than once to you, natural selection does not work that way.

The only argument from your side is a mutation in bacteria, that helped fight disease. but in the end comes at a cost to the organism. No one is showing enough beneficial mutations for macro-evolution to take place. but the two arguments above,are pretty much, game set and match.

No it's not, I've provided more evidence for macro evolution than bacteria. You don't really understand what natural selection is or how it works do you?

Evolutionary theory asserts that random mutations (changes in the DNA code), followed by natural selection, can result in complicated and functional protein structures. But mutations are almost always harmful. As Nobel Prize winner H.J. Muller concedes, "t is entirely in line with the accidental nature of natural mutations that … the vast majority of them (are) detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing, just as changes accidentally introduced into any artificial mechanism are predominantly harmful to its useful operation." French evolutionist Pierre-Paul Grasse noted, "[n]o matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution." Similarly, leading biologist Lynn Margulis (who opposes intelligent design) argues that “new mutations don't create new species; they create offspring that are impaired” and writes that “Mutations, in summary, tend to induce sickness, death, or deficiencies. No evidence in the vast literature of heredity changes shows unambiguous evidence that random mutation itself, even with geographical isolation of populations, leads to speciation.”

DNA consists of a complex code formed of four “letters” that are arranged into three letter “words.” Each word codes for a subunit of a protein, an amino acid. The proteins are analogous to complex machines, in that they have moving parts that repetitively perform a task. Several classes of mutations are shown above, but even in this simple illustration it is obvious that random changes in code do not increase the information content, making it unlikely that DNA mutations are responsible for the complex specificity of life.

One oft-cited “beneficial” mutation is bacterial antibiotic resistance. Yet antibiotic resistance does not introduce new information into the genome (see right). This is microevolution because it involves only minor change “within a species” and does not add information. Antibiotic resistance is not macroevolution and does not explain how new biological structures arise; it never results in one bacterial species becoming another. Interestingly, antibiotic resistant bacteria face a net “fitness cost” and are weakened by the very mutation that made them drug-resistant.


Why should I even bother formulating a reply to this when you've never even discussed the faults of the actual evidence I've posted?


Because you don't understand all they are doing is presenting an explanation not facts they are presenting opinions. But if you read through it they don't know.
 
If i said evolution may have happened did i prove to you evolution happened ? or mutations might be the engine of evolution is that convincing to you ? and then go on to give a hypothesis.
 
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Really,you make light of the doctorate degrees they possess you do the same with me,why ?

I looked at what was posted from wiki. You do understand your side have to attempt to answer how the eye's could have evolved right ? Well that is what they did they are trying to offer an explanation. They have no proof and it's easy to see that by reading what written there on wiki.

Let me give you a hint to know they are using theory to make their case. When you use terms like maybe,could,could be,may suggest, that means they don't know. Come on guy's what is known, is the eye is very complex, and anyone with an open mind can see evidence that it shows design.

If not, you should easily be able to show how natural selection can weed out traits that are not necessary and replace them with superior traits. How can natural selection know the difference between a hamrful mutation and a beneficial mutation ? Does Natural Selection have eyes to discern between the two ? Is Natural selection a process that thinks and possesses the ability to reason ?

That is exactly what you're saying, and that is what your sources are saying. Let me tell you i agree a thinking process was used in bringing forth life and the complexity of that life, but it's not how your theory say's it happened.

Natural selection weeds out the weak, if you and I were out in the wild and you could run faster and a wolf chases us, I'm going to be eaten and you'll be able to pass on your beneficial traits that include running fast while my slow genes were the wolves dinner.

Your view is based on what the Bible says, not based on science.

That's why you see deep sea fish with eye sockets and eye buds but no functioning eyes, they evolved from fish working eyes but in the deep sea they no longer needed them and thus evolved the current trait of no working eyes.

I agree with your view on how natural selection works ,but how does it work biologically ? How does it know we need a heart,lungs,blood,veins,eye's,brain,and many other things that we need to have a productive life ?

What is the chance of a non-intelligent process knowing these things ? Are we gonna reason it just happened by chance ?

Wait, how do you know the fish that had no eye's did not need them ? How do you know that it was not just a result of a harmful mutation ?

It does not "know", thats what you dont get. The animals with beneficial mutations survive better, that is the mechanism by which it progresses. In animals with three chambered hearts, oxygened and unoxygenated blood mix in the ventricle. Thats very inefficient. So some animals received small mutations (variations in the expression of some protein, or whatever), that results in a small, partial separation of the ventricle. We see this in reptiles. This makes the respiratory system more efficient, it prevents the mixing of blood. These animals have a competitive advantage. This gradually develops into a fully separated ventricle; even more efficient and advantageous.

This is not a knowledgeable progression. Its just natural selection, thats what you dont get. The chance expression of one protein more than another can lead to a competitive advantage among a certain family of animals. Those animals overtake the entire population gradually and therefore natural selection has produced evolution.
 
"Wait, how do you know the fish that had no eye's did not need them ? How do you know that it was not just a result of a harmful mutation ?"

Evolution is not about giving an organism everything it needs. I could use eyes on the back of my head and a third arm, that doesnt mean evolution should provide it for me.
 
Literally thousands of human diseases associated with genetic mutations have been catalogued in recent years, with more being described continually. A recent reference book of medical genetics listed some 4,500 different genetic diseases. Some of the inherited syndromes characterized clinically in the days before molecular genetic analysis (such as Marfan's syndrome) are now being shown to be heterogeneous; that is, associated with many different mutations... With this array of human diseases that are caused by mutations, what of positive effects? With thousands of examples of harmful mutations readily available, surely it should be possible to describe some positive mutations if macroevolution is true. These would be needed not only for evolution to greater complexity, but also to offset the downward pull of the many harmful mutations. But, when it comes to identifying positive mutations, evolutionary scientists are strangely silent.23

The only instance evolutionary biologists give of "useful mutation" is the disease known as sickle cell anemia. In this, the hemoglobin molecule, which serves to carry oxygen in the blood, is damaged as a result of mutation, and undergoes a structural change. As a result of this, the hemoglobin molecule's ability to carry oxygen is seriously impaired. People with sickle cell anemia suffer increasing respiratory difficulties for this reason. However, this example of mutation, which is discussed under blood disorders in medical textbooks, is strangelyevaluated by some evolutionary biologists as a "useful mutation."


Darwinism Refuted.com
 

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