Endure Hardship Like a Good Soldier

[Avatar4321]

Why do you think God is punishing you for being rational? Who is saying he is?

Let's think rationally. How can anyone know there isn't a God? Answer: it's not possible to know there isn't a God. In order to know there wasn't a God, we would have to be everywhere in the universe at the same time, throughout all time, and outside of time. In essence, to know there was no God, we would have to be a god.

Is there any other way to know there isn't a god? Find me one and Ill reformulate this theory. Because it's impossible to know there is no God, Atheism is by definition irrational.

Agnosticism would be rational. It's very easy to not know whether there is a God or not.

But would it be rational to be a Theist? I would argue yes. You might not be able to know there isn't a God, but you can easily know there is one. How? Through personal experience with God. If God appeared to you, for example, you would know He was there. If you heard His voice, you would know He was there. If you felt Him, you would know He is there. If you smelled Him you would. If you tasted Him you would know. (Granted I couldn't at all Explain how God would taste or smell, but the point is if you could do these things, you could know He exists).

So rationally we can be Agnostic or Theistic. The problem I see agnostics have is many irrationally conclude that if they don't know there is a God, no one else does and it cannot be known. That seems to be where you are at. You have concluded that there is nothing to base a belief in the supernatural on in the universe. I humbly disagree. Everything in the universe is a witness that there is a God.

Perhaps our problem is in what is supernatural? We may have different definitions of the word.

When I first started investigating whether there was a God, I had no clue whether He existed. Nor did I know if I could ever know whether He existed. I just reasoned that if God does exist and if He gives wisdom to those who seek it, He could reveal Himself to me in some way that I could know. That gave me reason to experiment with belief.

I read the scriptures and they teach us that if we ask, we shall recieve, that if we seek we shall find, that if we knock it will be openned to us. Christ taught that if we do what He says we can know whether it's from the Father or not. I saw the example of Peter who only learned that Jesus was the Christ through revelation from the Father. I saw that if any of us lack wisdom, we can ask God and He will give us liberally.

so I thought I would experiment by exercising faith. Real face. I started praying. I started studying the scriptures. I researched different topics online. I asked questions. I told myself that I was going to seek out the truth no matter where it lead me. Even if I lost family or friends (I really had no reason to think I would, but you never know how people react).

It wasn't long after that I recieved a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. When I finally recognized Him, I realized the Lord has been leading and teaching me the entire time and I just failed to notice it. I only truly learned after a substantial effort on my part. I have no doubt that the Lord is leading you as well. He will make Himself known to you when the time is right.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Spirituality and religion are two different things. Spirituality is about relationship with God and religion is about doctrine and the outer workings of the subject. Spirituality is the interior way whereas religion is the exterior way. Get it, P.T.?

I tend to think of religion as spirituality in practice. There are some who seem to think religion us a bad word. I don't know if you are one of them, but I don't agree with that. James said that Pure religion is to take care of the widow and the fatherless and to keep ourselves unspotted from the world. Religion then seems to be how we express our spirituality towards our fellow man.

Religion is as Guyon describes it. The oars in the boat that get us out to the deep blue sea with God and then? The Wind of the Holy Spirit comes - we lift the sail and take the oars into the boat and lay them down because they are no longer needed......now it is wherever the Spirit of God takes you.

So with that...... a relationship with God is nurtured in our spending time in prayer, reading the bible which is the Word of God, and being led by the Spirit. If you are being led by the Spirit you will find yourself caring for the widow and the orphan, keeping yourself unspotted from the world and if you are not led by the Spirit but rather by your own flesh than you will do the things the world does and seek the same pleasures the world seeks. With the exact same result in the end ( spiritual death )

Religion is not how we express our spirituality towards our fellow man however - Showing our Love for our brethren in Christ - is how we express our spirituality to our fellow man, Avatar. this is how they will know Jesus is real. By the love his followers show towards one another. This is something that cannot be counterfeited which is why only a true born again Christian will not give up the names of their fellow brethren for smuggling bibles in communist nations even when under the threat of death. No "religion" will do this because no religion is capable of doing this.

Only the true followers of Jesus Christ can do it because they have overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony and love not their lives unto the death.

 

[PainefulTruth]

Why do you think God is punishing you for being rational? Who is saying he is?

I'm not saying God does, you do. If I don't dismiss reason and believe on faith, I'm not going to heaven, know the truth, or whatever the rewards are for believing according to a given "revealed" religion.

Then there's the problem that if I were to believe one of them on faith, that would be to discard all the other faith based revealed religions.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why do you think God is punishing you for being rational? Who is saying he is?

I'm not saying God does, you do. If I don't dismiss reason and believe on faith, I'm not going to heaven, know the truth, or whatever the rewards are for believing according to a given "revealed" religion.

Then there's the problem that if I were to believe one of them on faith, that would be to discard all the other faith based revealed religions.

You're the only one making faith and reason mutually exclusive. Not us.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Why do you think God is punishing you for being rational? Who is saying he is?

I'm not saying God does, you do. If I don't dismiss reason and believe on faith, I'm not going to heaven, know the truth, or whatever the rewards are for believing according to a given "revealed" religion.

Then there's the problem that if I were to believe one of them on faith, that would be to discard all the other faith based revealed religions.

P.T., dismiss reason and believe God will all your heart. Accept that God loves you, sent His Only Begotten Son for your redemption and you are fully accepted in the beloved. Believe and if you find yourself doubting, say Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief! He will do it because he loves you and desires you to be reconciled to God. It is what he came to do, P.T. You do not need to be any religion.. what you need is relationship! Relax and have one! I will be praying for you tonight. God bless you. You are precious to the LORD, believe it. You are.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Your sceptical. So are many people. Then they have their own encounters with God and suddenly they are no longer sceptical. Absurd claims? What absurd claims? How big is your picture of God?

Any claim to anything supernatural is absurd since the only possible statement that can be made is hear-say. Add to that thousands of years and the fallibility of man, and you have a tangled mess that we're only now beginning to unravel some of.

Not sure what you mean by "picture of God", but God, if It exists as a sentient super spirit, would be equivalent with Truth, which is everything that exists in the Cosmos and in the mind.

That's the beauty of the Lord. He can speak on His own behalf. You don't have to take my word for anything. You can go to Him and find out for yourself by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I had faith, strong faith, that I had done that. People kept telling me the same things you just said until I finally figured out the problem wasn't with me. God wouldn't give me my free will, and a mind to exercise it on, and then expect me to turn it off. God (if It exists) didn't make me rational only to punish me for being so. I'm not a skeptic, I'm an agnostic. I don't know if God exists or not, but I do know there's absolutely nothing to base a belief in the supernatural on in this universe.

I have no doubt that as we all honestly seek the truth and to know God, He will guide us by His Spirit. If we are humble and willing to correct ourselves where we are mistaken, He will teach us the Truth of all things and eventually we will all see eye to eye even if now we may seem miles apart.

Being humble and trying to correct ourselves, which I try to be, sounds like the scientific method to me and a sound model for the pursuit of the Truth. In fact that's exactly how I came to leave Christianity--which, btw, was very frightening, especially since the rest of my family remained unchanged.

You got it in your first reply. Forget everything else, P.T. God is equivalent of Truth. He is truth. Indeed the Holy Spirit is also called, The Spirit of Truth. So let's stop there and rest. I do not believe you left your faith per se but rather the "way" Christianity was presenting itself in the church you were attending. You left mans defining of who God was for a search on your own. To find the Truth. So let the Lord minister to you about it and relax because seriously I see someone who God has His hand on. You are not lost. God is closer to you than the breath coming out of your mouth right now. Good night. - Jeri

 

[PainefulTruth]

Why do you think God is punishing you for being rational? Who is saying he is?

I'm not saying God does, you do. If I don't dismiss reason and believe on faith, I'm not going to heaven, know the truth, or whatever the rewards are for believing according to a given "revealed" religion.

Then there's the problem that if I were to believe one of them on faith, that would be to discard all the other faith based revealed religions.

You're the only one making faith and reason mutually exclusive. Not us.

I'm not making it that way, miracles and the supernatural have no basis in reason by definition. If I were to decide to pick a faith, how do I go about choosing one of the many hundreds/thousands out there?

You got it in your first reply. Forget everything else, P.T. God is equivalent of Truth. He is truth. Indeed the Holy Spirit is also called, The Spirit of Truth. So let's stop there and rest. I do not believe you left your faith per se but rather the "way" Christianity was presenting itself in the church you were attending. You left mans defining of who God was for a search on your own. To find the Truth. So let the Lord minister to you about it and relax because seriously I see someone who God has His hand on. You are not lost. God is closer to you than the breath coming out of your mouth right now. Good night. - Jeri

If a church or Bible can mis-convey Christianity, then the problem is with Christianity. The Truth is never wrong. And I am where I am today, and very happily so, due to what you call the Spirit of Truth. I don't know with certainty that Truth is a sentient super spirit, or if the Spirit of Truth is the essence of Truth harbored in the hearts of men; either way, my actions, morality and virtues are the same.

One thing I'm sure of is that no one (divine or otherwise) can die to save my soul from myself or any evil I might be practicing for which I am unrepentant. God (the Truth) has graciously given me custody of my own heart, for my possible benefit and for God's. I won't deny that gift.

 

[Avatar4321]

['m not making it that way, miracles and the supernatural have no basis in reason by definition. If I were to decide to pick a faith, how do I go about choosing one of the many hundreds/thousands out there?

Miracles and the super natural have no basis in reason? What definition of reason are you using. I find it completely irrational to disbelieve in miracles. Why? Because I know God is there and that He is a God of miracles.

How do you pick a faith? By going to the source.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given unto you." (James 1:5)

You need to know God before you can know how to Worship Him. Seek Him out. Talk with Him. Study the scriptures. If you don't know which ones to start with, pick one and start studying. You can know God for yourself.

Ive mentioned many times on this board that I didn't know whether God existed when I started searching. I just reasoned that if there was a God and He was as He was described, He would be able to make Himself known to me. That I thought was a reasonable hypothesis. And it was reasonable to test it. I didn't know if it was true or not. So I exercised faith in the hypothesis I reasoned.

Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. Faith and reason can both be tested.

 

[Katzndogz]

The fair cause of freedom always rises and falls, then it has to rise again.

Freedom isn't easy. It's hard. It's messy. Dependency is easy which is why once freedom has been achieved people eventually reject it in favor of dependency.

Would you rather own your own land, farm it yourself, take the risk of crop failure, sell your surplus and become rich? Or, would you rather just have a nice man from the government give you your food while you sit home and watch television?

I think I'd rather put my trust in the Lord and take my chances.

It was for the cause of liberty that Christ came into the world. His message was to set at free those who were in prison and those who are in bondage.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Cor 3:17)

If we want to have freedom. We need to obtain the Spirit of the Lord. And we get that with the truth. And the truth will set us free.

We are looking for political solutions for a spiritual problem.

Exactly. Well said, Avatar. It isn't our physical location or our physical possessions that protect us in a time of trouble but rather our abiding in Christ and He is our only protection. In all truth. Not these other things..

What protects me in time of trouble is a .357 magnum, two rifles, a shotgun, a cross-bow and a newly aquired Kalishnakov automatic knife. I thank God for these gifts and the ability to use them.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I don't feel I need a weapon to protect me. If I said I did I'd be lying. I just don't. I have Jesus. But I would say if your faith is to have weapons to protect you then by all means do it. Whatever you have faith for.

 

[Sunshine]

['m not making it that way, miracles and the supernatural have no basis in reason by definition. If I were to decide to pick a faith, how do I go about choosing one of the many hundreds/thousands out there?

Miracles and the super natural have no basis in reason? What definition of reason are you using. I find it completely irrational to disbelieve in miracles. Why? Because I know God is there and that He is a God of miracles.

How do you pick a faith? By going to the source.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given unto you." (James 1:5)

You need to know God before you can know how to Worship Him. Seek Him out. Talk with Him. Study the scriptures. If you don't know which ones to start with, pick one and start studying. You can know God for yourself.

Ive mentioned many times on this board that I didn't know whether God existed when I started searching. I just reasoned that if there was a God and He was as He was described, He would be able to make Himself known to me. That I thought was a reasonable hypothesis. And it was reasonable to test it. I didn't know if it was true or not. So I exercised faith in the hypothesis I reasoned.

Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. Faith and reason can both be tested.

Yes, you must be a seeker. Jesus said to Ask, Seek, and Knock.

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 7:7

I realize that there are many who accept only the Bible as the source of knowledge of God. But there are many ancient writings from which we can learn. I think Jesus studied what were in His day the ancient sages. And in my study I have found that He is the compendium of all things spiritual. But he did tell us to seek, and those who do not do that sell themselves short. There is a lot of good stuff out there.

 

[pacer]

When the reality of what is coming to America finally became clear to me, my first thought was to get my family together and fly to Australia where we would stay until peace and stability returned.

What was the reality of what was coming to America and have your overcome it?

 

[Avatar4321]

I realize that there are many who accept only the Bible as the source of knowledge of God. But there are many ancient writings from which we can learn. I think Jesus studied what were in His day the ancient sages. And in my study I have found that He is the compendium of all things spiritual. But he did tell us to seek, and those who do not do that sell themselves short. There is a lot of good stuff out there.

I agree. The Bible is not the only source of knowledge from God. The Bible contains the Word of God. No doubt about that. But it doesn't claim to be the only thing God has said and I see no reason to restrict God. God speaks to all nations. Unfortunately, many of those revelations were not written or were lost.

 

[PainefulTruth]

I don't feel I need a weapon to protect me. If I said I did I'd be lying. I just don't. I have Jesus. But I would say if your faith is to have weapons to protect you then by all means do it. Whatever you have faith for.

I'm not a Christian, but isn't Jesus quoted by the divinely inerrant word of God as saying that "I come not to bring peace, but a sword"? And didn't he and the crowd use those swords to take the Temple and stop commerce in it for a whole day with the Temple guards and Romans right there?