Equality and Israeli Citizenship

[Coyote]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

In a more serious note, yes, they can. Iranian Jews are citizens of Iran for example.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this:

Can there be real equality if citizenship is defined along ethnic or religious lines, and if those lines mean different responsibilities and rights - how can their be true equality?

When citizenship and religion are intertwined - can their be true equality for those not of that religion? Think of Iran.

Can you answer this seriously instead of just flaming?

 

[jillian]

I think it largely depends on the behaviour of the people involved. Will the people who end up on the "wrong" side be able to dedicate themselves to furthering the interests of the nation they live in?

That is a good question, but how would you determine that?

They could be given a choice of assuming a new citizenship and staying or maintaining the old and leaving?

If I was focusing on solutions, rather than delegitimizing the other, I would suggest the following in the parameters of a two-state solution with land swaps where Israel keeps the large Jewish blocs and swaps out equal portions of land, preferrably in areas with Arab populations.

1. Everyone who is on the "wrong" side at the end of the land swapping is offered a generous compensation package and incentives to move to the "right" side.

2. Anyone choosing not to move is granted dual Palestinian - Israeli citizenship. This dual citizenship applies only to the population at the time of the transfer and is not passed down to children and grandchildren. In other words, the children become citizens of only the nation in which they reside. (Though the other nation might offer an expedited application of citizenship should the child or grandchild wish to move there.)

3. Anyone who acts against the interests of the state in which they reside are stripped of citizenship and deported. (Since they have dual citizenship, this does not cause them to be stateless).

Basically, its an incentive to end up on the right side, and an incentive to play nice if you don't. Essentially, a humanitarian, non-forced population transfer.

I like that!

I think that would be fair, and just to all involved

of course you do.

and so glad you found it funny that i want to see where you demand that the arab countries grant jews citizenship.... you know, the countries like iran that expelled jews...

nah..... why would you. much easier to keep posting pro pal nonsense.

 

[jillian]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

In a more serious note, yes, they can. Iranian Jews are citizens of Iran for example.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this:

Can there be real equality if citizenship is defined along ethnic or religious lines, and if those lines mean different responsibilities and rights - how can their be true equality?

When citizenship and religion are intertwined - can their be true equality for those not of that religion? Think of Iran.

Can you answer this seriously instead of just flaming?

you don't know what you're talking about. and i was serious

you apparently, knowing nothing, aren't.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, PHOENALL, DocMauser1, et al,

Sometime we forget what the actual conflict is all about. And in losing sight of this, we tend to ask for otherwise unresolved questions. And with time, more questions start to arise.

The original issue for which the conflict arises where outline in the Statement of 6 February 1948 (A/AC.21/10 16 February 1948) Communicated to the Secretary-General by Mr. Isa Nakhleh, Representative of the Arab Higher Committee (AHC); ultimately channeled to the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC). The UNPC was them the designated Successor Government over the territory over which the Mandate would terminate in Midnight 14/15 May 1948.

Several points were made by the AHC which represented the Arab-Palestinians on this matter.

• The AHC did not recognize the passing vote by the General Assembly on Resolution 181(II). The AHC stated in substance that: "did not represent the sentiments of the United Nations." {understanding the difference between a "How to Document" versus a "Instructional Document."
• The AHC alleged that the UN had "no jurisdiction to order or recommend the partition of Palestine."
• The AHC the whole legal issue raised for a ruling by the International Court of Justice (ICJ), was nefariously block from a vote.
• The AHC stressed that the Arabs of Palestine cannot recognize the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate of Palestine or any situation arising or derived therefrom.
• The AHC considered that imposing international alien immigrants on their country by force is nothing but an act of aggression and invasion, whether made by Jews themselves, through Great Britain, or by the United Nations.
• The AHC alleged that the creation of any Jewish State in an Arab territory was an "act of wiping out the existence of an Arab country, violating its integrity, subjecting its land and people to foreign Jewish Domination.“
• “The Arabs of Palestine are, therefore, solidly determined to oppose, with all the means at their disposal, any scheme that provides for the dissection, segregation or partition of their tiny Country, or that gives to a minority, on the ground of creed, special and preferential rights or status.
• The Arabs are duty and honour bound to defend their country to the last man.
• “The Arabs of Palestine stressed how unwise and fruitless it would be to ask UNPC to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission.
​

The genesis on the issue of "citizenship" and "borders;" began with the wrongful exercise of lawful authority by the AHC to adopt a position to avoid cooperation with the implementation and the rejection to coordinate the implementation of the Partition Plan. It is why the 1988 entity for the State of Palestine is in question. Although under the Oslo Accord, the Palestinian Authority (PA) has the authority to issue travel documents. Like it is with other sovereign matters, acceptance of PA issued documents is under the purview of the country in which you are entering.

Palestinian Citizenship --- is as vague as it sounds. All that Article 7 of the Basic Law says, is that "Palestinian citizenship shall be regulated by law." I've never seen "citizenship" criteria.

View attachment 68904​

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks Rocco...if I understand it correctly....
a) it's a mess
b) The PA can issue passports, which may or may not be recognized...but there is no "citizenship" or citizenship criteria?
c) it's a mess

 

[Coyote]

I think it largely depends on the behaviour of the people involved. Will the people who end up on the "wrong" side be able to dedicate themselves to furthering the interests of the nation they live in?

That is a good question, but how would you determine that?

They could be given a choice of assuming a new citizenship and staying or maintaining the old and leaving?

If I was focusing on solutions, rather than delegitimizing the other, I would suggest the following in the parameters of a two-state solution with land swaps where Israel keeps the large Jewish blocs and swaps out equal portions of land, preferrably in areas with Arab populations.

1. Everyone who is on the "wrong" side at the end of the land swapping is offered a generous compensation package and incentives to move to the "right" side.

2. Anyone choosing not to move is granted dual Palestinian - Israeli citizenship. This dual citizenship applies only to the population at the time of the transfer and is not passed down to children and grandchildren. In other words, the children become citizens of only the nation in which they reside. (Though the other nation might offer an expedited application of citizenship should the child or grandchild wish to move there.)

3. Anyone who acts against the interests of the state in which they reside are stripped of citizenship and deported. (Since they have dual citizenship, this does not cause them to be stateless).

Basically, its an incentive to end up on the right side, and an incentive to play nice if you don't. Essentially, a humanitarian, non-forced population transfer.

I like that!

I think that would be fair, and just to all involved

of course you do.

and so glad you found it funny that i want to see where you demand that the arab countries grant jews citizenship.... you know, the countries like iran that expelled jews...

nah..... why would you. much easier to keep posting pro pal nonsense.

What is wrong with Shusha's idea? Seriously Jillian, I agree with you on so many other things - why not discuss it instead of throwing out flames? Yes, I'm prop-Pali. So what? That doesn't mean I'm "anti-Israel".

I pointed out - Iranian Jews have a recognized community - AND citizenship in Iran. Other countries expelled their Jews in 1948...but that doesn't mean that a) citizenship is denied to Jews or b) that because of of this citizenship should therefore be denied to non-Jews in Israel.

Discuss.

 

[Coyote]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

In a more serious note, yes, they can. Iranian Jews are citizens of Iran for example.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this:

Can there be real equality if citizenship is defined along ethnic or religious lines, and if those lines mean different responsibilities and rights - how can their be true equality?

When citizenship and religion are intertwined - can their be true equality for those not of that religion? Think of Iran.

Can you answer this seriously instead of just flaming?

you don't know what you're talking about. and i was serious

you apparently, knowing nothing, aren't.

Again, you're just flaming.

 

[Coyote]

Jillian:

1. how should citizenship be handled in Israel?

2. How should citizenship be handled if a two state solution should occur which includes land swaps?

3. Is it ethical to forceably strip citizenship of a person, and under what circumstances?

 

[montelatici]

I think it largely depends on the behaviour of the people involved. Will the people who end up on the "wrong" side be able to dedicate themselves to furthering the interests of the nation they live in?

That is a good question, but how would you determine that?

They could be given a choice of assuming a new citizenship and staying or maintaining the old and leaving?

If I was focusing on solutions, rather than delegitimizing the other, I would suggest the following in the parameters of a two-state solution with land swaps where Israel keeps the large Jewish blocs and swaps out equal portions of land, preferrably in areas with Arab populations.

1. Everyone who is on the "wrong" side at the end of the land swapping is offered a generous compensation package and incentives to move to the "right" side.

2. Anyone choosing not to move is granted dual Palestinian - Israeli citizenship. This dual citizenship applies only to the population at the time of the transfer and is not passed down to children and grandchildren. In other words, the children become citizens of only the nation in which they reside. (Though the other nation might offer an expedited application of citizenship should the child or grandchild wish to move there.)

3. Anyone who acts against the interests of the state in which they reside are stripped of citizenship and deported. (Since they have dual citizenship, this does not cause them to be stateless).

Basically, its an incentive to end up on the right side, and an incentive to play nice if you don't. Essentially, a humanitarian, non-forced population transfer.

I like that!

I think that would be fair, and just to all involved

of course you do.

and so glad you found it funny that i want to see where you demand that the arab countries grant jews citizenship.... you know, the countries like iran that expelled jews...

nah..... why would you. much easier to keep posting pro pal nonsense.

Iran does grant citizenship to Jews. But it is not an Arab country. Morocco, Tunisia and other other Arab countries grant citizenship to Jews, however.

 

[docmauser1]

Thanks Rocco...if I understand it correctly....
a) it's a mess
b) The PA can issue passports, which may or may not be recognized...but there is no "citizenship" or citizenship criteria?
c) it's a mess

And it's a palistanian problem, of course, and palistanians like it that way, anyway.

 

[Phoenall]

It's all hypothetical since there is no Palestinian state and we don't know what form it will take or how it's view towards citizenship will end up in reality but, for example:

Assuming there are landswaps, and Israel retains the larger more established settlements, but will likely have to give up on other settlements.

Should those settlers be forced to leave against their will?

Should they be stripped of their Israeli citizenship if they choose to stay?

I think it largely depends on the behaviour of the people involved. Will the people who end up on the "wrong" side be able to dedicate themselves to furthering the interests of the nation they live in?

That is a good question, but how would you determine that?

They could be given a choice of assuming a new citizenship and staying or maintaining the old and leaving?

By seeing how willing they are to stop attacking the other side.

In other words forced repatriation without any compensation for their losses

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, et al,

I agree here, but I would like to stress that Israelis have to decide this. It is there country.

(COMMENT)

I think it is important that non-Israelis temper their voice when it comes to these issues.


R

I think the same needs to apply to a future Palestinian state as well - people should be given a choice. Citizens who are citizens of Israel, should not be forceably stripped of citizenship, or property. Whether they remain in Palestine or Israel. IMO.

And again you ignore international treaties and international laws when they apply to the Jews. The arab Palestine lane is what is now Jordan, and that is where they are meant to be. What would you say if the Israelis declared that the Jewish refugees are still refugees along with their offspring and need to be given the same rights as the arab refugees. Do you think that is fair and honest, if not why is it fair and honest for the Palestinians. You are aware that Palestinians living in the US still class themselves as refugees and see their home as what ever land in Israel takes their fancy. If the arab's ever manage to gain full control you can expect modern day Israel to be destroyed within 3 years and all the Jews ethnically cleansed. The only solution is the one agreed by the LoN that saw the peaceful muslims allowed to stay in Israel and the extremists given two chances, move willingly to Jordan with a small compensation package ( about $100 at the time ) or be forcibly relocated by the armed forces of the LoN

How does any of that relate to what I am saying in regards to a two state solution and citizenship?

Are you suggesting that Arab Israeli's should be stripped of citizenship and sent to Jordan?

Is that what I replied to, or did I reply to your above post that had absolutely nothing to do with a two,three or fous state solution.

I'm trying to figure out WHAT you are calling for because your response doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the question.

There has been a two state solution in place since 1924 when the LoN mandate portioned Palestine into Jewish and arab sections. You deny this because it means the Jews are covered by international laws protecting their rights to what is now gaza, west bank and Golan heights.

That "solution" was never law or Israel, when it was founded, would not have had the borders it did. It's just a red herring.

There is NO LAW giving them rights to Gaza, WB or the Golan Heights which belonged to Syria. What they have, they have by right of conflict and occupation, however that falls out in the end.

I am suggesting those arab muslims that see themselves as Palestinians and not as Israelis should have their Israel citizenship revoked and be asked to leave Israel. Told if they stay they will no longer be covered by Israeli health care and welfare. Just as all those Americans that see themselves Africans, Italians, Irish et al should be told the same

There is nothing "legal" or ethical about that.

Should Jews who see themselves as Jews first, not Israeli's also have their citizenship revoked?

Where will all these people go?

The two state solution was law and it set out the borders of Israel :



Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory:11


PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.


Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.


It was the meddling of the UN hoping that the Jews would deny the partition plan that led to the cock up in 1948, this led to Israel not delineating the extent of their lands or naming their borders. Instead they relied on the LoN mandate and the UN wording of 181 that called for mutual agreements. When the arab muslims from Egypt denied 181 and refused to have anything to do with the plan the Jews set in motion their plan to call independence and face the armed might of the arab league. This they did and having studied their enemy knew that they would fight each other for leadership more than they would fight the Jews. This led to the Jews accruing more land than originally envisaged by the UN and keeping that land as the right of conquest was still in existence. That is why the borders look strange because in reality the Jews owned all the land but parts were occupied by Syria, Jordan and Egypt. These nations promptly broke the Geneva conventions, IHL and the UN charter by forcibly expelling 1 million Jews.



So deny all you want the International laws say that the land is legally Jewish and the arab muslims are illegal enemy aliens.


Where is the country or nation of Jew then, as this is what you are actually saying. That those Israelis that see themselves as Jewish should be evicted to this non existent nation. Or are you trying to say that Palestinian is now a religion, which is so laughable as to be alarming. A Palestinian can be Jewish, muslim, Christian et al and still see themselves as being more Palestinian than Israeli, so leaving themselves open to having their citizenship revoked. A give away is when they say " in my country I am allowed to do this " when they are 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th generation naturalised citizens of the country the commit the crime in. It was the first claim by many muslims arrested in the UK for honour crimes, and they were normally deported to those countries that allowed the crimes with much indignation and shouting about human rights.


If they claim to be more Palestinian than Israeli then they will go to Palestine of course, if they claim to be more Jewish than Israeli they will go to Israel as full citizens. If you have any intelligence you should be able to work it all out

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, et al,

What are we talking about here?

I think the same needs to apply to a future Palestinian state as well - people should be given a choice. Citizens who are citizens of Israel, should not be forceably stripped of citizenship, or property. Whether they remain in Palestine or Israel. IMO.

(COMMENT)

Can you give me an example scenario?

Most Respectfully,
R

It's all hypothetical since there is no Palestinian state and we don't know what form it will take or how it's view towards citizenship will end up in reality but, for example:

Assuming there are landswaps, and Israel retains the larger more established settlements, but will likely have to give up on other settlements.

Should those settlers be forced to leave against their will?

Should they be stripped of their Israeli citizenship if they choose to stay?

Then why are so many nations scrambling to recognise the state of Palestine that has been in existence since 1988. Why is their a seat in the UN observer area specifically for the Palestinian state representative. What you really mean is the Palestinians want the world to wipe out the Jews so they can walk into Israel and make it their own. Then to demand the world keeps them fully supplied with everything they need to live.

Where IS the nation of Palestine? What are it's borders? Why is there no such thing as Palestinian citizenship?

The nation of Palestine is a place on the map of the M.E. that is not delineated.

It has no borders until it negotiates them by mutual agreement as promised in 1988

There is a Palestinian citizenship and the P.A. issues travel warrants and passports to this effect. You could claim to be Palestinian by claiming to have lived in any part of Palestine for the last 2 years. That is you now a Palestinian, and this is how the vast majority of Palestinian came into existence.




You really need to do more reading up on this subject and stop just agreeing with team palestine

 

[Phoenall]

Where IS the nation of Palestine? What are it's borders? Why is there no such thing as Palestinian citizenship?

"I don’t think there is a Palestinian nation at all. I think there is an Arab nation. I always thought so... I think it’s a colonialist invention – a Palestinian nation. When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from?” Azmi Bishara
Us wonders too ... .

The people have always been there. It's what you call them, that has changed.

That is right as until the early 1960's it was an insult to any muslim to call them Palestinians, and the name was reserved for the Jews

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, PHOENALL, DocMauser1, et al,

Sometime we forget what the actual conflict is all about. And in losing sight of this, we tend to ask for otherwise unresolved questions. And with time, more questions start to arise.

The original issue for which the conflict arises where outline in the Statement of 6 February 1948 (A/AC.21/10 16 February 1948) Communicated to the Secretary-General by Mr. Isa Nakhleh, Representative of the Arab Higher Committee (AHC); ultimately channeled to the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC). The UNPC was them the designated Successor Government over the territory over which the Mandate would terminate in Midnight 14/15 May 1948.

Several points were made by the AHC which represented the Arab-Palestinians on this matter.

• The AHC did not recognize the passing vote by the General Assembly on Resolution 181(II). The AHC stated in substance that: "did not represent the sentiments of the United Nations." {understanding the difference between a "How to Document" versus a "Instructional Document."
• The AHC alleged that the UN had "no jurisdiction to order or recommend the partition of Palestine."
• The AHC the whole legal issue raised for a ruling by the International Court of Justice (ICJ), was nefariously block from a vote.
• The AHC stressed that the Arabs of Palestine cannot recognize the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate of Palestine or any situation arising or derived therefrom.
• The AHC considered that imposing international alien immigrants on their country by force is nothing but an act of aggression and invasion, whether made by Jews themselves, through Great Britain, or by the United Nations.
• The AHC alleged that the creation of any Jewish State in an Arab territory was an "act of wiping out the existence of an Arab country, violating its integrity, subjecting its land and people to foreign Jewish Domination.“
• “The Arabs of Palestine are, therefore, solidly determined to oppose, with all the means at their disposal, any scheme that provides for the dissection, segregation or partition of their tiny Country, or that gives to a minority, on the ground of creed, special and preferential rights or status.
• The Arabs are duty and honour bound to defend their country to the last man.
• “The Arabs of Palestine stressed how unwise and fruitless it would be to ask UNPC to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission.
​

The genesis on the issue of "citizenship" and "borders;" began with the wrongful exercise of lawful authority by the AHC to adopt a position to avoid cooperation with the implementation and the rejection to coordinate the implementation of the Partition Plan. It is why the 1988 entity for the State of Palestine is in question. Although under the Oslo Accord, the Palestinian Authority (PA) has the authority to issue travel documents. Like it is with other sovereign matters, acceptance of PA issued documents is under the purview of the country in which you are entering.

Palestinian Citizenship --- is as vague as it sounds. All that Article 7 of the Basic Law says, is that "Palestinian citizenship shall be regulated by law." I've never seen "citizenship" criteria.

View attachment 68904​

Most Respectfully,
R

And there you have it from Roccor that the Mandate for Palestine is a legal treaty that the arab muslims could not agree to as it went against the dictates of their religion.

 

[Phoenall]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

Jews are citizens of several Muslim countries, as are Christians.

And are decreasing every year due to ethnic cleansing and genocides. In 1948 there were over 1.5 million Jews in the M.E arab nations, by 1949 there were less than 300,000. Today they number 30,000 at best.

 

[jillian]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

Jews are citizens of several Muslim countries, as are Christians.

And are decreasing every year due to ethnic cleansing and genocides. In 1948 there were over 1.5 million Jews in the M.E arab nations, by 1949 there were less than 300,000. Today they number 30,000 at best.

actually, jews have been run out of every muslim country. the ones that remain are being held

she's lying and uninformed.

but then again, what can you expect fro someone who thinks you can be friends with holocaust deniers.

 

[Jroc]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

In a more serious note, yes, they can. Iranian Jews are citizens of Iran for example.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this:

Can there be real equality if citizenship is defined along ethnic or religious lines, and if those lines mean different responsibilities and rights - how can their be true equality?

When citizenship and religion are intertwined - can their be true equality for those not of that religion? Think of Iran.

Can you answer this seriously instead of just flaming?

You gotta love this person, in her mind the very few Jews left in Iran are equal citizens of Iran, but the 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel aren't


Jewish population

1948: 100,000 | 2014: 10,000
The Jewish community of Persia, modern-day Iran, is one of the oldest in the Diaspora, and its historical roots reach back to the 6th century B.C.E., the time of the First Temple. Their history in the pre-Islamic period is intertwined with that of the Jews of neighboring Babylon. Cyrus, the first of the Archemid dynasty, conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E. and permitted the Jewish exiles to return to the Land of Israel, bringing the First Exile to an end. The Jewish colonies were scattered from centers in Babylon to Persian provinces and cities such as Hamadan and Susa. The books of Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Daniel give a favorable description of the relationship of the Jews to the court of the Achaemids at Susa.

Under the Sassanid dynasty (226-642 C.E.), the Jewish population in Persia grew considerably and spread throughout the region; nevertheless, Jews suffered intermittent oppression and persecution. The invasion byArab Muslims in 642 C.E. terminated the independence of Persia, installed Islam as the state religion, and made a deep impact on the Jews by changing their sociopolitical status.

Throughout the 19th century, Jews were persecuted and discriminated against. Sometimes whole communities were forced to convert. During the 19th century, there was considerable emigration to the Land of Israel, and the Zionist movement spread throughout the community.

Under the Phalevi Dynasty, established in 1925, the country was secularized and oriented toward the West. This greatly benefited the Jews, who were emancipated and played an important role in the economy and in cultural life. On the eve of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, 80,000 Jews lived in Iran. In the wake of the upheaval, tens of thousands of Jews, especially the wealthy, left the country, leaving behind vast amounts of property.

The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its Anti-Zionist position.

Despite the official distinction between "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israel," the most common accusation the Jewsencounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious freedom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions im posed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.

Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government's publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999.2Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.3

The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Tehran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Tehran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function. 4

Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.

After the Iranian revolution in early 1979 members of the Jewish community feared for their lives, afraid that they would be murdered or expelled by the new Iranian regime. After the execution of prominent Jewish businessman Habib Elghanian on May 9, 1979 was publicized in local news outlets, the leaders of the Jewish community in Iran knew that they had to act fast in order to guarantee the safety of all Iranian Jews. The community leaders quickly assembled a group of two rabbis and four prominent young intellectuals and set off to meet with Ayatollah Khomeini in the Iranian city of Qom. After the group congratulated the Ayatollah on his victory over the Shah in the recent revolution, the Ayatollah gave a long monologue concluding by comparing Christianity, Islam and Judaism and saying that they are the only religions that are truly descended from heaven. The Ayatollah stated that in the Qur'an Moses's name is mentioned more times than the name of any other Prophet. The discussion concluded with Ayatollah Khomeini claiming that "We recognize our Jews as separate from those godless, bloodsucking Zionists." This was the answer that the Jewish community leaders had been looking for, and the Iranian government has kept their word and kept the Jews physically safe (for the most part) ever since this moment. 8

On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6

At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as to the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community’s isolation from world Jewry. The Jewish community in Iran is alive and well, although they live under the oppressive Islamic regime. In Iran's capital city of Tehran there are 13 active synagogues that hold weekly services, five Jewish schools, two Jewish kindergartens, and a 100-bed capacity Jewish hospital. Although there are active Jewish communities all around the country, Tehran's community is the most significant.




Jews of Iran | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[jillian]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

do you ever post anything that isn't anti-israel? just wondering.

can jews get citizenship in muslim countries?

until the answer is yes, no one really cares about your concerns.

In a more serious note, yes, they can. Iranian Jews are citizens of Iran for example.

In all seriousness, let me ask you this:

Can there be real equality if citizenship is defined along ethnic or religious lines, and if those lines mean different responsibilities and rights - how can their be true equality?

When citizenship and religion are intertwined - can their be true equality for those not of that religion? Think of Iran.

Can you answer this seriously instead of just flaming?

You gotta love this person, in her mind the very few Jews left in Iran are equal citizens of Iran, but the 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel aren't


Jewish population

1948: 100,000 | 2014: 10,000
The Jewish community of Persia, modern-day Iran, is one of the oldest in the Diaspora, and its historical roots reach back to the 6th century B.C.E., the time of the First Temple. Their history in the pre-Islamic period is intertwined with that of the Jews of neighboring Babylon. Cyrus, the first of the Archemid dynasty, conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E. and permitted the Jewish exiles to return to the Land of Israel, bringing the First Exile to an end. The Jewish colonies were scattered from centers in Babylon to Persian provinces and cities such as Hamadan and Susa. The books of Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Daniel give a favorable description of the relationship of the Jews to the court of the Achaemids at Susa.

Under the Sassanid dynasty (226-642 C.E.), the Jewish population in Persia grew considerably and spread throughout the region; nevertheless, Jews suffered intermittent oppression and persecution. The invasion byArab Muslims in 642 C.E. terminated the independence of Persia, installed Islam as the state religion, and made a deep impact on the Jews by changing their sociopolitical status.

Throughout the 19th century, Jews were persecuted and discriminated against. Sometimes whole communities were forced to convert. During the 19th century, there was considerable emigration to the Land of Israel, and the Zionist movement spread throughout the community.

Under the Phalevi Dynasty, established in 1925, the country was secularized and oriented toward the West. This greatly benefited the Jews, who were emancipated and played an important role in the economy and in cultural life. On the eve of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, 80,000 Jews lived in Iran. In the wake of the upheaval, tens of thousands of Jews, especially the wealthy, left the country, leaving behind vast amounts of property.

The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its Anti-Zionist position.

Despite the official distinction between "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israel," the most common accusation the Jewsencounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious freedom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions im posed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.

Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government's publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999.2Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.3

The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Tehran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Tehran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function. 4

Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.

After the Iranian revolution in early 1979 members of the Jewish community feared for their lives, afraid that they would be murdered or expelled by the new Iranian regime. After the execution of prominent Jewish businessman Habib Elghanian on May 9, 1979 was publicized in local news outlets, the leaders of the Jewish community in Iran knew that they had to act fast in order to guarantee the safety of all Iranian Jews. The community leaders quickly assembled a group of two rabbis and four prominent young intellectuals and set off to meet with Ayatollah Khomeini in the Iranian city of Qom. After the group congratulated the Ayatollah on his victory over the Shah in the recent revolution, the Ayatollah gave a long monologue concluding by comparing Christianity, Islam and Judaism and saying that they are the only religions that are truly descended from heaven. The Ayatollah stated that in the Qur'an Moses's name is mentioned more times than the name of any other Prophet. The discussion concluded with Ayatollah Khomeini claiming that "We recognize our Jews as separate from those godless, bloodsucking Zionists." This was the answer that the Jewish community leaders had been looking for, and the Iranian government has kept their word and kept the Jews physically safe (for the most part) ever since this moment. 8

On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6

At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as to the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community’s isolation from world Jewry. The Jewish community in Iran is alive and well, although they live under the oppressive Islamic regime. In Iran's capital city of Tehran there are 13 active synagogues that hold weekly services, five Jewish schools, two Jewish kindergartens, and a 100-bed capacity Jewish hospital. Although there are active Jewish communities all around the country, Tehran's community is the most significant.




Jews of Iran | Jewish Virtual Library

thank you for that. i doubt she's much interested though.

 

[montelatici]

 

[montelatici]