Explain this. This guy shoots a Firefighter during the attempt to murder someone else....released in less than 3 years, gets illegal gun, again.

[Ray From Cleveland]

I realize in my lifetime nothing will change. I've been resigned to that for a while. Just from a logical perspective, does more guns equate to more safety? You say yes, I say no. We'll never agree. Long after we're gone history will decide the answer to that. I'm pretty confident I'll be correct.

I think it's pretty much already decided. Armed Americans use their guns more than a million times a year to stop crime, for self-defense, or to help out others. Very few involve actual shootings but an armed citizen with the right to use the weapon stops a lot of problems when it comes to criminals. Some pro-gun surveys state that we use our guns over 4 million times a year.

You seldom hear of these stories because they are mostly local, but they happen multiple times every single day.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Interesting. Now you're advocating murder. Gun bans or strict gun laws seem to work quite well in every country that uses them. Locking people up doesnt solve the problem either. We by far incarcerate more people than any other first world country and we are still the most violent crime ridden 1st world country on the planet. So you got a 3rd choice?

If gun bans worked then the cities that have them like Chicago and several cities in California would be virtually crime free. But they are more loaded with violent and gun crime than places much more lenient on guns. So your theory is flawed.

As for trying to compare countries to each other that's apples and oranges. The US is extremely diverse and you can't compare us to a mostly if not all white country. Over 50% of our murders are committed by only 7% of our population; black males.

Here's the thing: If you took a nice safe white suburb and created law that all households must have a firearm, their crime rate will remain very low. If you went to the most crime ridden black areas of our country and made guns illegal, their crime rate won't change much either. What does that tell us? It tells us our crime is not related to guns, our crime is related to the people.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Speaking of dangerous neighborhoods, etc. Should a home owner need to wait until the drive-by is already going down and shots fired before "brandishing" a firearm of their own in an effort to detour it?

I cannot WAIT to hear your response.

A couple of decades ago I lived in a neighborhood that was mostly middle class aerospace and utility workers.

Speaking of dangerous neighborhoods, etc. Should a home owner need to wait until the drive-by is already going down and shots fired before "brandishing" a firearm of their own in an effort to detour it?

I cannot WAIT to hear your response.

A few decades ago I lived in a neighborhood that was populated by mostly aerospace and utility workers of all races. One day a single mother moved in with her late teen/early twenties son. No big thing, we all welcomed them to the neighborhood. She told us she had moved there to get away from the gangs in the barrio. A week or two later, the son's friends start showing up with tattoos and lowriders hanging around in the street and generally making nuisances of themselves in a quiet suburban neighborhood. After a couple of calls to the LA Sheriffs accomplished nothing except making the "visitors" more hostile; a number of us starting sitting on our front stoops quietly cleaning our assorted rifles and pistols. Nothing hostile you understand, no brandishing or threats, just quietly doing normal firearms maintenance. Within a week, the "friends" were gone and the mother came around thanking us. The "friends" were the gangbangers she moved her son to get away from. Apparently he didn't want to get away from them and invited them to his new house. Shortly after that the son moved away to go back to his friends, the mother stayed and was a great neighbor.

 

[SavannahMann]

So where did you get the idea that I wanted us to do that here? I never said that. I was simply giving an example of how a strong enough deterrent works when it's used. That's besides the fact even if we could do that, the taxpayers would have to support the criminal for the rest of his life since he couldn't work. They don't do that in the middle-east.

Now look at San Francisco. The Walgreens are closing up because in order for the police to come out for a shoplifting call, the criminal has to be stealing more than $950.00 of merchandise. What should they have done? Increase the penalties for shoplifting so the criminal spends several days or weeks in jail. Liberalism is the exact opposite of common sense. If they made it harder and more strict penalties for shoplifting, those stores would be open today. After the blacks moved into my suburbs all the major stores had to close down. Why? Because little was done to them when caught shoplifting. Everybody suffers.

Ok. Back to my earlier question you ignored. How much more are you willing to pay in taxes? California jails and prisons are overcrowded.

California’s Prison Population Drops Sharply, but Overcrowding Still Threatens Prisoner Health

The state’s prison population declined by more than 20% in 2020 as authorities took steps to address the COVID-19 pandemic. But some California prisons are still well above capacity, posing potential health risks for prisoners and prison workers.

www.ppic.org

There are only two ways to reduce this overcrowding.

One. Release prisoners early. When they do you rush out screaming that Democrats are letting criminals out of jails.

The second is to build more jails and prisons. How many new prisons will we need to lock people up for a sufficient time to satisfy you? Double what we have? Triple?

How much will that cost? Even privatizing them cost money. We have to guarantee a certain number of prisoners for a certain number of years for a minimum price.

So how will we pay for this? Crank up higher taxes is the only way isn’t it? Are you now in favor of higher taxes?

You can’t have stiffer sentences without somewhere to keep them. Those places cost money. Money comes from taxes. Everyone wants to pay less tax. So how much more are you willing to pay for these sentences?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Ok. Back to my earlier question you ignored. How much more are you willing to pay in taxes? California jails and prisons are overcrowded.

California’s Prison Population Drops Sharply, but Overcrowding Still Threatens Prisoner Health

The state’s prison population declined by more than 20% in 2020 as authorities took steps to address the COVID-19 pandemic. But some California prisons are still well above capacity, posing potential health risks for prisoners and prison workers.

www.ppic.org

There are only two ways to reduce this overcrowding.

One. Release prisoners early. When they do you rush out screaming that Democrats are letting criminals out of jails.

The second is to build more jails and prisons. How many new prisons will we need to lock people up for a sufficient time to satisfy you? Double what we have? Triple?

How much will that cost? Even privatizing them cost money. We have to guarantee a certain number of prisoners for a certain number of years for a minimum price.

So how will we pay for this? Crank up higher taxes is the only way isn’t it? Are you now in favor of higher taxes?

You can’t have stiffer sentences without somewhere to keep them. Those places cost money. Money comes from taxes. Everyone wants to pay less tax. So how much more are you willing to pay for these sentences?

Make prisons less hospitable and criminals will be less likely to want to return. Take away the TVs and the air conditioning, make the inmates do hard, unpleasant work for long days even if it's something stupid like filling sandbags form one pile of sand moving them a hundred feet and emptying them onto another pile. You know, make being in prison a PUNISHMENT like it was for most of history. It would also save the taxpayers a lot of money.

 

[john doe 101]

Where did I say murder them? If they are attacking you, and you kill them in self defense that is called "Justifiable Homicide".

And, no. Gun bans DON'T work as the 70 plus dead people in Norway, and the 130 plus dead people in Paris prove beyond doubt.

Norway just had their SECOND mass killing in TEN years today. America has had TWENTY EIGHT mass shootings this year in 8 months. So yeah you stupid fuck tell me again who is doing things wrong? Beyond doubt my ass you piece of shit.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Norway just had their SECOND mass killing in TEN years today. America has had TWENTY EIGHT mass shootings this year in 8 months. So yeah you stupid fuck tell me again who is doing things wrong? Beyond doubt my ass you piece of shit.

Yes Norway and the rest of Scandanavia for that matter, have been pretty peaceful. That’s because up until very recently they have had a peaceful, homogenous society. The UK used to be a pretty peaceful place where the criminals respected the cops and the cops didn’t need anything more lethal than a nightstick. Germany had a similar history as did Portugal, Holland and Belgium. They aren’t so peaceful anymore. The US has been a violent place since it was a British colony. Canada right next door hasn’t, but Canada was less accepting of immigration except from the UK for most of its history.

 

[westwall]

Norway just had their SECOND mass killing in TEN years today. America has had TWENTY EIGHT mass shootings this year in 8 months. So yeah you stupid fuck tell me again who is doing things wrong? Beyond doubt my ass you piece of shit.

First off, gang shootings are being counted as mass shootings, which is a lie. The first norway shooting killed more than the actual mass shootings in the USA over a period of ten years.

The Paris shooting killed more than all of the US mass shootings over a twenty year period. That's called a fact.

 

[john doe 101]

Yes Norway and the rest of Scandanavia for that matter, have been pretty peaceful. That’s because up until very recently they have had a peaceful, homogenous society. The UK used to be a pretty peaceful place where the criminals respected the cops and the cops didn’t need anything more lethal than a nightstick. Germany had a similar history as did Portugal, Holland and Belgium. They aren’t so peaceful anymore. The US has been a violent place since it was a British colony. Canada right next door hasn’t, but Canada was less accepting of immigration except from the UK for most of its history.

You'll go to any length to blame ANYTHING and EVERYTHING except guns. You'll be sitting there in another 10 years still wondering why Norway just had their third mass killing in 20 years while we've had thousands of mass shootings in the same time period. No wait you'll be sitting there saying "See I told you so look how bad Norway's got it with no guns".

 

[SavannahMann]

Make prisons less hospitable and criminals will be less likely to want to return. Take away the TVs and the air conditioning, make the inmates do hard, unpleasant work for long days even if it's something stupid like filling sandbags form one pile of sand moving them a hundred feet and emptying them onto another pile. You know, make being in prison a PUNISHMENT like it was for most of history. It would also save the taxpayers a lot of money.

That is hilarious. Really. It is.

Many of Georgia prisons aren’t air conditioned. The guards let violence happen claiming their job is to keep the crooks in. Not protect them.

Want to know the real reason those things are in prisons? The air con and tvs and decent food? It saves guards lives.

You see the prisoners are less likely to riot if there is decent food. They are less likely to riot if there is a tv on. This means the guards are less likely to be beaten or murdered. You realize that the guards are vastly outnumbered right?

So by taking away those things. You would need to increase the numbers of guards. This would be necessary to insure safety of the aforementioned guards. If you don’t the guards would be swamped and the prisoners would escape.

Guards who are hurt are unavailable for the next shift. So a few small incidents quickly lead to a large incident. A riot.

So instead of spending the money on air conditioning and food you spend it on guards and medical care for them. Same money. Worse result. In fact you probably end up spending more on guards and medical.

Do you know how a helicopter flies? It is an incredibly difficult aircraft to manage. Each motion requires another. If you adjust the cyclic you have to adjust the tail rotor. Doing so requires an adjustment to the collective. That requires another adjustment of the cyclic. That is why a pilot is always moving the controls in the videos. Each movement requires an adjustment of the others to keep things in balance.

Social questions are similar. There is no simple solution. If you make prisons worse you require more security. More security means greater numbers of injuries. That means more money to pay people to take the risks of guarding the prisoners. That means more money for payroll. That means more money for medical. And it goes on and on.

The prisons we have are run that way for efficiency and expense. It is cheaper to buy a TV and some air conditioning than it is to hire a bunch of guards to keep the prisoners in line. It is cheaper to buy some decent food than it is to deal with riots.

Getting tough hasn’t worked yet. But the get tough on crime folks always pretend that this time it will. Why? The tent jail that the Sheriff went with in Phoenix didn’t work. Crooks didn’t stop committing crimes. The crime rate was unchanged. It should have worked right? It was miserable and awful and it did nothing.

All that happened was more deputies meant more money for that. Saved on buildings. But not a bit of difference for the total costs.

So why not examine things to see what does work?

 

[john doe 101]

First off, gang shootings are being counted as mass shootings, which is a lie. The first norway shooting killed more than the actual mass shootings in the USA over a period of ten years.

The Paris shooting killed more than all of the US mass shootings over a twenty year period. That's called a fact.

Here come the excuses and the like. I fucking guarantee you people in Norway right now arent clamoring to be more like us regarding our gun laws. What does that tell you?

 

[westwall]

You'll go to any length to blame ANYTHING and EVERYTHING except guns. You'll be sitting there in another 10 years still wondering why Norway just had their third mass killing in 20 years while we've had thousands of mass shootings in the same time period. No wait you'll be sitting there saying "See I told you so look how bad Norway's got it with no guns".

That's because guns aren't the problem. Violent people are. The UK has watched their gun crime rate skyrocket over the last few years.

You tell us why.

 

[westwall]

Here come the excuses and the like. I fucking guarantee you people in Norway right now arent clamoring to be more like us regarding our gun laws. What does that tell you?

I hate to break it to you but Norway is in the top ten for civilian ownership of guns worldwide.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ok. Back to my earlier question you ignored. How much more are you willing to pay in taxes? California jails and prisons are overcrowded.

California’s Prison Population Drops Sharply, but Overcrowding Still Threatens Prisoner Health

The state’s prison population declined by more than 20% in 2020 as authorities took steps to address the COVID-19 pandemic. But some California prisons are still well above capacity, posing potential health risks for prisoners and prison workers.

www.ppic.org

There are only two ways to reduce this overcrowding.

One. Release prisoners early. When they do you rush out screaming that Democrats are letting criminals out of jails.

The second is to build more jails and prisons. How many new prisons will we need to lock people up for a sufficient time to satisfy you? Double what we have? Triple?

How much will that cost? Even privatizing them cost money. We have to guarantee a certain number of prisoners for a certain number of years for a minimum price.

So how will we pay for this? Crank up higher taxes is the only way isn’t it? Are you now in favor of higher taxes?

You can’t have stiffer sentences without somewhere to keep them. Those places cost money. Money comes from taxes. Everyone wants to pay less tax. So how much more are you willing to pay for these sentences?

I'm willing to pay whatever it takes. Currently we have a bill in Congress containing hundreds of billions of dollars in Democrat pork. What's better, a slightly cleaner environment that won't make one environmentalist happy, or more criminals behind bars where they can't hurt people any longer? And just what do you consider our escalating fuel prices because Biden is choking off domestic fuel production? That's a cost everybody has to pay including the poor be it a tax or not. Natural gas prices this winter is expected to rise over 50% from last year. Plus Dementia wants to put a huge national tax on tobacco products---mostly used by the poor and middle-class. So much for nobody making less than 400K a year...........

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Want to know the real reason those things are in prisons? The air con and tvs and decent food? It saves guards lives.

You see the prisoners are less likely to riot if there is decent food. They are less likely to riot if there is a tv on. This means the guards are less likely to be beaten or murdered. You realize that the guards are vastly outnumbered right?

So by taking away those things. You would need to increase the numbers of guards. This would be necessary to insure safety of the aforementioned guards. If you don’t the guards would be swamped and the prisoners would escape.

Guards who are hurt are unavailable for the next shift. So a few small incidents quickly lead to a large incident. A riot.

So instead of spending the money on air conditioning and food you spend it on guards and medical care for them. Same money. Worse result. In fact you probably end up spending more on guards and medical.

So what happens when inmates want a huge olympic swimming pool, fishing trips, McDonald's food of choice once a week, otherwise high end T-bone steaks and ribs, a movie theater, visits from female prisoners from another facility?

Want to stop assaults on prison guards, a five year addition to your sentence if you hurt a guard. Riot? An additional 15 years to your sentence.

 

[SavannahMann]

I'm willing to pay whatever it takes. Currently we have a bill in Congress containing hundreds of billions of dollars in Democrat pork. What's better, a slightly cleaner environment that won't make one environmentalist happy, or more criminals behind bars where they can't hurt people any longer? And just what do you consider our escalating fuel prices because Biden is choking off domestic fuel production? That's a cost everybody has to pay including the poor be it a tax or not. Natural gas prices this winter is expected to rise over 50% from last year. Plus Dementia wants to put a huge national tax on tobacco products---mostly used by the poor and middle-class. So much for nobody making less than 400K a year...........

Yeah. The usual tripe.

First, you start out claiming you are willing to pay whatever. But then, a sentence later, you start to decry the spending already going on. You personally are not willing to pay one more dime. You are perfectly happy to strip it from things you don’t believe have merit.

In other words, you are just like the Democrats. You want others to sacrifice for what you want.

The problem in this nation isn’t crime. It isn’t Democrats. Or the left. It isn’t Republicans or the Right. It is that we are all willing to sacrifice what they want to get what we want. None of us are willing to do what it takes to get what we want.

So you’ll keep posting your inane screeds about how Democrats are turning people loose from jails, or soft on crime. But you won’t go to your Legislature and demand that taxes be raised to fund more prisons. You won’t go to Washington and demand that we reduce the spending on the Military to build and staff more prisons. No, you want to take the money from other sources that you consider wasteful.

Let’s talk wasteful. Why not start an experiment? Why not start a rehabilitation program that is so successful in Norway? Wouldn’t that program if successful reduce crime, prison costs, and even allow us to have offenders serve their entire sentences since they would be free from overcrowding issues?

Nah. Not punitive enough for you.

This nation is going down the proverbial tubes. And it can’t happen soon enough. I expect I won’t see you on the front lines. Instead you’ll be in your home ranting and raving about how awful the left is.

 

[SavannahMann]

So what happens when inmates want a huge olympic swimming pool, fishing trips, McDonald's food of choice once a week, otherwise high end T-bone steaks and ribs, a movie theater, visits from female prisoners from another facility?

Want to stop assaults on prison guards, a five year addition to your sentence if you hurt a guard. Riot? An additional 15 years to your sentence.

They get additional time already. Idiot. You are absolutely clueless about anything relating to criminal justice. Other than your ideals that the system is too soft.

If they ever made it a requirement that you had to know something before you were allowed to speak about it, you would be required to have your mouth stapled shut before you left the house. You would probably fuck up a discussion on the weather.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

They get additional time already. Idiot. You are absolutely clueless about anything relating to criminal justice. Other than your ideals that the system is too soft.

If they ever made it a requirement that you had to know something before you were allowed to speak about it, you would be required to have your mouth stapled shut before you left the house. You would probably fuck up a discussion on the weather.

Look asshole I know people who have been in prison. I know one that's currently there now. My old GF and long time friend was a correction officer in a male prison. I know what goes on there.

Yeah, they get extra time for assault, a few extra months. No deterrent whatsoever. Want to know what a real deterrent looks like? Get a video of a classic movie Cool Hand Luke. If prions were like that today, nobody would want to be near them.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yeah. The usual tripe.

First, you start out claiming you are willing to pay whatever. But then, a sentence later, you start to decry the spending already going on. You personally are not willing to pay one more dime. You are perfectly happy to strip it from things you don’t believe have merit.

In other words, you are just like the Democrats. You want others to sacrifice for what you want.

The problem in this nation isn’t crime. It isn’t Democrats. Or the left. It isn’t Republicans or the Right. It is that we are all willing to sacrifice what they want to get what we want. None of us are willing to do what it takes to get what we want.

So you’ll keep posting your inane screeds about how Democrats are turning people loose from jails, or soft on crime. But you won’t go to your Legislature and demand that taxes be raised to fund more prisons. You won’t go to Washington and demand that we reduce the spending on the Military to build and staff more prisons. No, you want to take the money from other sources that you consider wasteful.

Let’s talk wasteful. Why not start an experiment? Why not start a rehabilitation program that is so successful in Norway? Wouldn’t that program if successful reduce crime, prison costs, and even allow us to have offenders serve their entire sentences since they would be free from overcrowding issues?

Nah. Not punitive enough for you.

This nation is going down the proverbial tubes. And it can’t happen soon enough. I expect I won’t see you on the front lines. Instead you’ll be in your home ranting and raving about how awful the left is.

And just how many times have you been on the front lines for your beliefs? Zero, just like most people. You vote for people that has most of your interests on their agenda. You asked if I was willing to pay more for taxes and I answered you. Sorry if you don't like the truth. And yes, I do want to strip away wasteful spending and use that money instead for more productive things that will benefit this country like keeping violent people behind bars for as long as possible.

So how much higher taxes are you paying when the Democrats decided to pay people to stay home instead of work? How much more in taxes are you paying to fund the Kennedy Center millions of dollars or the arts. Don't give me this BS how much more I'm willing to pay when we never see a tax increase for any of our spending. That being said, if we are going to spend borrowed money, put it towards the things that matter the most.

 

[westwall]

Yeah. The usual tripe.

First, you start out claiming you are willing to pay whatever. But then, a sentence later, you start to decry the spending already going on. You personally are not willing to pay one more dime. You are perfectly happy to strip it from things you don’t believe have merit.

In other words, you are just like the Democrats. You want others to sacrifice for what you want.

The problem in this nation isn’t crime. It isn’t Democrats. Or the left. It isn’t Republicans or the Right. It is that we are all willing to sacrifice what they want to get what we want. None of us are willing to do what it takes to get what we want.

So you’ll keep posting your inane screeds about how Democrats are turning people loose from jails, or soft on crime. But you won’t go to your Legislature and demand that taxes be raised to fund more prisons. You won’t go to Washington and demand that we reduce the spending on the Military to build and staff more prisons. No, you want to take the money from other sources that you consider wasteful.

Let’s talk wasteful. Why not start an experiment? Why not start a rehabilitation program that is so successful in Norway? Wouldn’t that program if successful reduce crime, prison costs, and even allow us to have offenders serve their entire sentences since they would be free from overcrowding issues?

Nah. Not punitive enough for you.

This nation is going down the proverbial tubes. And it can’t happen soon enough. I expect I won’t see you on the front lines. Instead you’ll be in your home ranting and raving about how awful the left is.

How much do you think the crimes committed cost?

Waaaay more than what it costs to keep them locked up.