Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

[Woodznutz]

Leviticus is not the Ten Commandments, and seems more like punishments decided by mankind for those not keeping the Commandments. While Genesis 3 might be construed as punishment, it also seems like God is explaining the consequences of their acts. For example, a child jumps off the roof. The doctor wouldn't say, "The punishment for jumping off the roof is a broken leg," he would remark the consequence of jumping off high places is usually a broken bone.

Where do we come to the conclusions that God was just waiting to punish someone for the sins of all? Where in Jesus' ministry does he proclaim that he was there so God might punish him alone in place of punishing each person individually? If it was going to be punishment for the remission of sins, why was Jesus always teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins?

Jesus's death was of concern for the hereafter, not the here-and-now.

 

[Red Front]

Wait, now your argument is that a lack of mention dosn't mean it doesn't mean something. So instead of being able to point to the text as positively referring to what you want to find, you resort to "just because it isn't there doesn't mean it isn't there in my interpretation".


We believe. Just not what you believe. To us, you are non-believing.

Why would you say that when I pointed out to you that the nation of Israel is identified with the servant repeatedly. Is it because in the passages about a suffering servant, it isn't mentioned AGAIN? Actually, if you start reading from 52, you will see explicit mention of the people as the subject of the conversation. That subject is then called the servant. I can show you how the nouns and pronouns work if you need me to.

You put a few different claims in this statement. The first is true -- if Jews kept the Torah properly and consistently, we wouldn't go through suffering. But we haven't, so we do. Then you bring in the word "redeemer" which isn't a very good word to use as it doesn't actually describe the messiah. You also throw in the word "savior" but your meaning is not clear.

I didn't say it wasn't. I showed how the name was used in Isaiah.

Exactly. I hope this shows how there is no value to your insistence of a plain old "yes it is."

He is not mentioned explicitly anywhere in Jewish texts.

What chapters did I delete? I don't recall deleting anything. I catalogued uses of a term.

I cited verses where the text makes that clear, yes.

"the signpost" What is that? Is that some fanciful interpretation that you insert? Because it isn't part of the text.

And Jews know how to read the text as a whole.

so you start by saying "even though Jesus isn't there, nonetheless, I will say he is there."

Only because you insist that 53 is about the messiah. Except it isn't, so your claim to a "deeper meaning" is more a "wishful thinking." You don't have to believe it, but those of us who study the text see the reality of it.


No, it never means Jesus and he wasn't a messiah.

Like the ones about Cyrus, which I quoted. And about Isaiah, which i quoted. Both are referred to by the root for messiah.

That is your belief, yes.

There is no "bar nasha." Learn the words before you try to use them. And all you have done is insert your personal belief in the place of what the text says.

But, again, that's just a statement of your belief. It isn't a function of the texts' meaning. Sorry you can't see that because of the blinders you prefer to wear.

We believe. Just not what you believe. To us, you are non-believing.

It doesn't matter what you believe. Without Jesus Christ, you're dead in your sins. No matter how many "good works" you perform, it will not grant you salvation or entrance into God's Kingdom. You need to pick up your cross and follow Him into the Kingdom, in a state of divine grace and faith.

Why would you say that when I pointed out that the nation of Israel is repeatedly identified with the servant. Is it because in the passages about a suffering servant, it isn't mentioned AGAIN?

You argued that in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, Jesus wasn't mentioned. I simply pointed out that in the same chapter that we were discussing, Israel wasn't explicitly mentioned either. If you now want to modify your argument by saying that in the book of Isaiah, Israel is identified as a servant of God. Yes? So what? The servant motif is applied to Israel, the prophet Isaiah, king David..etc, as you admitted yourself. Isaiah has Messianic prophecies, that even the rabbis recognize, so it's not beyond the pale, to identify the servant in Isaiah 53 as the Messiah, especially when the servant in Isaiah 53 is suffering unjustly.

YHWH made Israel a promise that if they kept His Torah and did what was right, they wouldn't suffer but rather would be blessed. The purpose of the nation of Israel and the Mosaic law, was to create a nation that would condemn Idolatry, allowing for the Son of YHWH to incarnate and save the world. YHWH planned a "rescue mission" in Eden, after the fall of Adam and Eve, that led to the formation of Israel, a priestly nation that would create the sacred space for the incarnation. After the incarnation, martyrdom and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the nation of Israel had accomplished its mission. It's now through faith in Messiah-Jesus that one joins Israel, not through pedigree, as it was before Christ.

Non-believing Jews think they're still God's "chosen people", ignoring the essence of why their ancestors were chosen. It all revolved around the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Jew who split time and convinced the world to follow Him into paradise.

Jesus/Yehoshua/Joshua = The Salvation of YHWH. He leads the mixed multitude into the land of milk and honey (eternal life). Without him, you will die in the wilderness (in your sins).


Actually, if you start reading from 52, you will see explicit mention of the people as the subject of the conversation. That subject is then called the servant. I can show you how the nouns and pronouns work if you need me to.

You're completely ignoring everything I'm saying. The true, perfect, archetypical servant is the Messiah, who suffers for the world and redeems it. He's the one who leads the world to paradise. There is a deeper meaning in Isaiah 53, which you refuse to recognize. You only acknowledge deeper meaning in the Hebrew Bible when it conforms to your rabbinic Judaic theology and beliefs.

You put a few different claims in this statement. The first is true -- if Jews kept the Torah properly and consistently, we wouldn't go through suffering. But we haven't, so we do. Then you bring in the word "redeemer" which isn't a very good word to use as it doesn't actually describe the messiah.

It doesn't describe the messiah as you as an adherent of rabbinic Judaism, understand what and who Messiah is. The Messiah for us isn't just a political leader, He is the incarnation of God's Son. The perfect image of God, who takes the place of the first Adam, becoming the second Adam and new head of YHWH's creation. In Him, we are restored and regenerated. Re-born into the Kingdom of God.

You also throw in the word "savior" but your meaning is not clear.

He is Yehoshua/Jesus/Joshua, whose name in Hebrew means: "Salvation of YHWH" or "YHWH Saves". He saves us from death, both spiritually and eventually physically as well. The spiritual is the most important aspect of our nature that has to be redeemed and regenerated, before everything else. Redemption is not just political or people entering paradise, without first being cleansed and reborn within, as new creations. Messiah redeems the human mind and spirit, not just the body, or a person's material condition.

I didn't say it wasn't. I showed how the name was used in Isaiah.

I was responding to another individual, who was denying that the name of David was used metaphorically for the Messiah. There are different levels of meaning in the Hebrew Bible. Peshat, Remez, Derash, and Sod. Each represents a different approach to studying the Bible.

1. Peshat (פְּשָׁט‎): This represents the literal interpretation of the text. It involves understanding the basic, literal meaning.
2. Remez (רֶמֶז‎): This is the allegorical interpretation. It assumes that the text has a hidden or deeper meaning beyond the literal sense. This often involves symbolic and metaphorical interpretations.
3. Derash (דְּרַשׁ‎): This is the comparative or homiletical interpretation (Midrash). It involves understanding the text through narratives, parables, and other educational methods. It often includes extrapolations or interpretations of the text that are not evident in the literal reading.
4. Sod (סוֹד‎): This is the mystical or secret interpretation. It's often associated with Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. This level involves seeking a deeper spiritual meaning of the text, often involving esoteric and mystical interpretations.

PRDS means "garden" or "orchard". Christians we see Yehoshua/Jesus in Isaiah 53 and so did the Jewish apostles of Jesus. So we follow their understanding of the Hebrew Bible and our experience confirms it. We witness miracles in Jesus Name, and we experience the presence of the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha'Kodesh). The Messiah is the one who baptizes and immerses with the holy fire of God.

Luke 3:16: "John answered them all, 'I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.'"

Exactly. I hope this shows how there is no value to your insistence of a plain old "yes it is."

I know it's true and so do all of the other Christians, whoever receives God's grace to see it. You will deny it as all non-believers do, but that doesn't alter the reality, which we know and experience as Christians. My concern right now are the Christians who are reading your falsehood, lest they get bewitched, as some of them do by Jewish anti-missionaries. To the Christians I say, don't drink the rabbinic Kool-Aid. It will kill you spiritually.


He is not mentioned explicitly anywhere in Jewish texts.

The Messiah doesn't have to be explicitly mentioned by name in the Hebrew Bible.

What chapters did I delete? I don't recall deleting anything. I catalogued uses of a term.I cited verses where the text makes that clear, yes."the signpost" What is that? Is that some fanciful interpretation that you insert? Because it isn't part of the text.

For you, it's a "fanciful interpretation" because you're not born again and filled with God's spirit. We know the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is referring to the Messiah and Savior of the world, who saves everyone through His suffering. You can disagree but that's fine, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I write this for the sake of the Christians who might get deceived by your carnal, dead arguments.


And Jews know how to read the text as a whole.

Most Jews don't know much about the Bible. The ones like you who know Hebrew, lack Jesus Christ, hence you're reading Isaiah 53 carnally, failing to see the deeper meaning of the text, misapplying it to the nation of Israel. It's not Israel that suffers unjustly, it's the Messiah. The Son of YHWH, incarnates, lives a perfect life, and through His martyrdom, rises from the dead, as the head of humanity. The Second Adam leads the mixed multitude into the land of milk and honey (immortality and righteousness). An intimate relationship with YHWH Father, in and through His perfect Son and the power of the Holy Spirit (רוח הקודש / Ruach Ha'Kodesh).

so you start by saying "even though Jesus isn't there, nonetheless, I will say he is there."

Even though he's not explicitly, by Name, mentioned in Isaiah 53, He is nonetheless, there, because He is the Mashiach who saves through His suffering and resurrection. There is no other under heaven, through which we can be saved. Through one man we were consigned to corruption and death, due to his failure, and through another man we are saved, due to his victory and success.

DERECH HASHEM - THE RAMCHAL/Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto:

" The rule that the Community of the Future World [Olam Haba] is restricted only to those who attained perfection in their own right is not absolute. For it was also decreed that an individual can reach a level where he can partake of perfection and be included in the Community as the result of his association with a more worthy individual. The only difference is that he will remain on a lower level, since he is not included in the Community in his own right, but only through the association of another.[1]

The only ones who are cast aside completely from perfection, therefore, are those who are not worthy of it at all, neither through their own merit nor through the association with another. Because of this, the number who are saved from annihilation and allowed the ultimate bliss is maximized.

Those who cause others to partake in the World-to-Come will definitely be the foremost in the Community. They will be the leaders, while those who enter by virtue of their association with them will be beholden and dependent on them.

In order for this to be possible, all men were originally bound to each other, as our Sages teach us, “All Israel are responsible for one another.”[2] As a result of this, each individual is bound to everyone else, and no man is counted separately. Hashem’s Attribute of Good is the stronger, however, and if the guilt for sin is shared by others, this must certainly be true of the merit associated with good deeds."

///// IF WE ARE DAMNED THROUGH THE FIRST ADAM, WE CAN BE SAVED/REDEEMED BY THE SECOND ADAM = THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME = JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH / YEHOSHUA HA'MASHIACH / JOSHUA THE JEWISH MAN WHO LEADS THE MIXED MULTITUDE INTO THE STATE OF IMMORTALITY IN YHWH'S KINGDOM.//////

​

The RAMCHAL continues:

" As a result of this principle, suffering and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik ( righteous person) as an atonement for his entire generation.[3] This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed on him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time, is himself elevated to a very great degree. For a tzaddik such as this is made into one of the leaders in the Community of the Future World, as discussed earlier.

Such suffering also includes cases where a tzaddik suffers because his entire generation deserves great punishments, bordering on annihilation, but is spared via the tzaddik’s suffering. In atoning for his generations, through his suffering, this tzaddik saves these people in this world, and als greatly benefits them in the World-to-Come.

In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."

///// YEHOSHUA/JESUS = THE SALVATION OF YHWH. ​

THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME. THE JEWISH MAN WHO THE GOYIM SEEK AND FALL PROSTRATE BEFORE. THE TRUE GLORY OF ISRAEL...///////


The Ramchal Continues:

"According to the original plan, the sequence of worldly events required that man undergo at least some suffering before both he and the world could attain perfection. This was required by the very fact that one of the basic concepts of man’s predicament was that Hashem should hold back His Light and hide His Presence. This became all the more necessary as a result of the corruption and spiritual damage caused by man’s many sins, which held the good back even more and caused Hashem’s presence to become all the more hidden. The world and everything in it are therefore in a degraded evil state, and require that Hashem’s unfathomable wisdom bring about numerous chains of events to achieve their rectification.

Among the most important elements of this sequence is the requirement that man be punished for his wickedness until the Attribute of Justice is satisfied. Hashem arranged matters, however, so that select perfect individuals could rectify things for others, as discussed earlier. The Attribute of Justice therefore relates to them rather than to the rest of the world in general.

Individuals such as these, however, are themselves perfect, and are therefore worthy only of good. The only reason that they suffer is because of others, and the Attribute of Justice must therefore be as satisfied with a small amount of suffering on their part as with a large amount on the part of those who actually sinned.

Beyond that, the merit and power of these tzaddikim is also increased because of such suffering, and this gives them even greater ability to rectify the damage of others. They can therefore not only rectify their own generation, but can also correct all of the spiritual damage done from the beginning, from the time of the very first sinners.

It is obvious that individuals such as these will ultimately be the foremost leaders in the Perfected Community, and the ones who are the very closest to Hashem.[4]

All this is not only the result of justice, but also follows from the actual order of things. As a result of man’s sins, corruption is increased and incorporated into both man and the world. This in turn causes Hashem’s Light to be increasingly retracted and hidden. The more that this corruption is cleansed, on the other hand, and the more people that are purified of it, the more Hashem’s Light is once again revealed, step by step.

Suffering is the thing that Hashem created to cleanse the pollution, both in general and in particular. Thus, through the suffering of these select individuals, creation in general is cleansed, and step by step the world is brought closer to perfection.[5]"

Refereces:

[1]. Zohar 3:220b, Tikkunei Zohar 32 (76b), that Tzaddikim enter Gehinom to help others leave. Cf. Anaf Yosef on Tanchuma, Vayeshev 3, and Zohar Chadash 25a. This is even true of those who the Talmud says have no portion in the World-to-Come. They can still share the portion of a Tzaddik: cf. R. Bachya on Vayikra 18:29, quoted in Shikchas Leket (in Yalkut Reuveni, Warsaw 5644) 217a, s.v. Mah; quoted in Ta’amei ha-Minhagim, Kuntres Acharon § 536 (p.232). Also see Ramasayim Tzofim 15 on Tana D’vei Eliyahu Rabbah (p. 64a). Also see Kesubos 111b

[2]. Shavuos 39a, Sanhedrin 27b, Sifra and Rashi on Vayikra 26:37. Also see Shabbos 55a, Vayikra Rabbah 4:6, Tana D’vei Eliyahu Rabbah 11 (66b); Mechilta on Shemos 19:6. Reagrding the logic that people should be able to help each other spiritually for this reason, see Sotah 37b, Rashi as loc. S.v. Amar Rav Mesharshia. We also find that because of this mutual responsibility, one person can sometimes fulfill the responsibility of another, cf. Rashi, Rosh Hashanah 29a, s.v. Af Al Pi; Ran ibid. (on Rif 8a), s.v. Tani; Ran, Pesachim (on Rif 27b), s.v. Sheyuchal; Magen Avraham 167:40.

[3]. Nega’im 2:1; Bertinoro ad loc. s.v. Beis; Bava Metzia 84b; Yerushalmis Berachos 2:8 (20a), Bereshis Rabbah 33:1, 44:6, Vayikra Rabbah 2:5; Shir ha-Shirim Rabbah 6:6, Koheles Rabbah 5:14, Pesikta 30 (191a), Zohar 165a, 167b, 1:180a, 2:10b, 2:36b, 2:53a, 2:195a, 2:212a, 2:269a, 2:257a, 3:17b, 3:38a, 3:46b, 3:118a, Sefer Chasidim § 528. Cf. Shabbos 139b, Sanhedrin 39a, Zohar 3:20b, 3:115a. Ramban on Shemos 32:32, Ikkarim 4:13. We thus find that the death of the righteous atones for the sins of their generation: cf. Shabbos 33b, Mo’ed Katan 25a, 28a, Yerushalmi Yoma 1:1 (2a), Shemos Rabbah 35:4, Vayikra Rabbah 27:7, Pesikta 27 (174b).

[4]. Rabbi Shimon thus said that he could rectify the entire world from the time of creation, and therefor he also attained a highest level in the Future World: Sukkah 45b, Maharsha ad loc., Yerushalmi Berachos 9:2 (65a), Avos d’Rabbi Nasan 16:4, Eruvin 65a top, Sefer Chasidim § 611. Cf. Yoma 38b, Chagigah 12b, Mechilta on Shemos 15:1, Bereshis Rabbah 75:11; Tanchuma, B’shalach 10, Nitzavim 2. Also see Ta’anis 8a from Yeshayahu 64:4; Menoras ha-Maor 51:2 (299). Cf. Daniel 12:3, Rashi as loc.; Tanchuma, Noach 7; Berachos 17b, Ta’anis 24b, Chullin 26a, Yerushalmi Ma’aser Sheni 5:5 (35a); Ta’anis 21b, Bava Metzia 85a, Sanhedrin 114a.

[5]. Cf. Bereshis Rabbah 19:7, that the sins of mankind caused the Shechinah (Divine Presence) to depart from the world, whereas the righteous were able to bring it back.

---------------

What you just read above, is a renowned rabbi, within Judaism, known as the RAMCHAL, who sounds like a Christian, when he describes how the suffering of the righteous, can redeem, save, cleanse, and purify others. He sounds like a Christian. The more "mystical" rabbinic Judaism gets, the more Christian it becomes. Christians have been saying what you just read from the RAMCHAL, for 2000 years. The Mashiach comes to suffer and redeem, save the world. Only YHWH can guide you to this fact. I can't do it. Only the Holy Spirit can draw you to this truth and lift the veil off of your eyes.


Only because you insist that 53 is about the messiah. Except it isn't, so your claim to a "deeper meaning" is more a "wishful thinking." You don't have to believe it, but those of us who study the text see the reality of it.

Only because it's true. Those who are born again and spirit-filled know Jesus Christ/Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach, is the suffering servant. It's supernatural, supra-rational, knowledge. You can be born again too, but it's up to you. You don't stop being Jewish, when you believe Yehoshua is the Son of the Living God and Savior of the world. You can continue practicing your customs, but you will know, just as all born again Christians know, that their faith is founded on truth. Jesus is truly The Way, The Truth and The Life. The One who leads us all into the land of milk and honey. He is our Sabbath.

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh will come, and to him shall the subduing of the peoples be” (Gn 49:10).


No, it never means Jesus and he wasn't a messiah.

He is and will always be the Savior and Messiah. There is no one else but Him.

MASHIACH BEN YOSEPH - TZADICK OF ALL TZADICKIM. THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME.

Martyred upon the TAV/TAW/CROSS:​

​

"Tav is the last letter of the Hebrew Alphabet. Meaning mark, sign, omen, or seal, it is the symbol of truth, perfection, and completion. It represents the restoration Tikkun תיקון of all of existence. It is a return to the essence and purpose of one’s life. It represents completion, before beginning again with the original Oneness of the Aleph.

The Tav shows us that the end was set from the beginning, as Tav is the final letter of בראשית Beresheet, “In the Beginning”, the first word of the Torah/Bible. It is the idea that the Creator set in motion all of existence in order to reach a final state of perfection, the fulfillment of all of creation. It is also the completion of Truth אמת Emet.

However, as soon as the Tav is reached, we begin again immediately by going back to the Aleph, the one source of everything. The end is never really the end, but the beginning of something new.

The Zohar states: "the tav makes an impression on the Ancient of Days." "The Ancient of Days" refers to the sublime pleasure innate within the "crown" (Will) of Divine Emanation. The letter tav (here referring to the "Kingdom of the Infinite One, Blessed be He") leaves its impression on the "Ancient of Days." The impression is the secret of simple faith in G-d's ultimate omnipresence the Infinite present in the finite, for "there is none like unto Him" (the conclusion of the above quotation from the Zohar). "

Source: The letter TAV

כולם = Koloom. Nothing. The Messiah is reduced to nothing, upon the TAV. He entered the grave, and it spit Him out, because death had no authority over him. He kept the Torah, perfectly. The incarnation of the Sar Gadol, the Son of the Living God, YHWH. The Mission of Israel, was to create a holy-place for the incarnation. He would not be passed through the fire, sacrificed to demons:

​

He would not be sacrificed to the fallen angels you heard in those videos. Israel's mission, was to make sure the Sar Gadol, the Mashiach, would incarnate and complete His mission, of redeeming YHWH's creation. Israel was chosen for that reason. If you must take pride, take pride in the fact that the Savior and King of the world is a Jewish man from Nazareth. Before Him, we fall prostrate.

Like the ones about Cyrus, which I quoted. And about Isaiah, which i quoted. Both are referred to by the root for messiah.

Yes, there are many anointed ones, but there is only one anointed who saves the world. He is Shilo, the one who takes the sceptre from Judah, and rules the Earth. Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach leads us all into the eternal Kingdom of YHWH. He saves the human spirit from annihilation, leading it into the land of milk and honey, the true Israel (Garden Of Eden) = Immortality in YHWH's Kingdom (In His Light).


That is your belief, yes.

I know it, it's not just a belief. Those who are born again and spirit filled, also know it. They're not impressed with your anti-Christ/anti-Messiah, carnal arguments.

There is no "bar nasha." Learn the words before you try to use them. And all you have done is insert your personal belief in the place of what the text says.

I interpret it like many rabbis do. The angel in Daniel 7 interprets Daniel's vision, identifying the beasts as the nations that don't have God's divine instructions. The human being or "Barnasha"/בַּרְנָשָׁא, "Son Of Man", is the embodiment of the tzadikim, the righteous/saints. However, there are also rabbis who interpret that Son of Man as Mashiach. So, we see there an example of a community of tzadikim, who are embodying the Mashiach. It's the remnant of Israel that keeps God's divine instructions and also Mashiach. It can be both. If you say that the barnasha represents the saints, you are correct. If you say that the barnasha represents Mashiach, you are also correct. It represents both.

But, again, that's just a statement of your belief. It isn't a function of the texts' meaning. Sorry you can't see that because of the blinders you prefer to wear.

Yes the text itself points to what I am saying and even rabbis of your rabbinic religion, agree with me, not with you.

 

[Woodznutz]

So many questions, but I'll just ask one. He said the resurection is a provable, historical fact. Could someone prove that for those of us who haven't seen this evidence?

God is the life giver. He breathed life into the corpse of Adam, and the corpse of the second Adam, Jesus Christ. There is no scientific explanation for life, therefore we defer to the Biblical narrative.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus's death was of concern for the hereafter, not the here-and-now.

I see it differently.

 

[hobelim]

We believe. Just not what you believe. To us, you are non-believing.

It doesn't matter what you believe. Without Jesus Christ, you're dead in your sins. No matter how many "good works" you perform, it will not grant you salvation or entrance into God's Kingdom. You need to pick up your cross and follow Him into the Kingdom, in a state of divine grace and faith.

Why would you say that when I pointed out that the nation of Israel is repeatedly identified with the servant. Is it because in the passages about a suffering servant, it isn't mentioned AGAIN?

You argued that in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, Jesus wasn't mentioned. I simply pointed out that in the same chapter that we were discussing, Israel wasn't explicitly mentioned either. If you now want to modify your argument by saying that in the book of Isaiah, Israel is identified as a servant of God. Yes? So what? The servant motif is applied to Israel, the prophet Isaiah, king David..etc, as you admitted yourself. Isaiah has Messianic prophecies, that even the rabbis recognize, so it's not beyond the pale, to identify the servant in Isaiah 53 as the Messiah, especially when the servant in Isaiah 53 is suffering unjustly.

YHWH made Israel a promise that if they kept His Torah and did what was right, they wouldn't suffer but rather would be blessed. The purpose of the nation of Israel and the Mosaic law, was to create a nation that would condemn Idolatry, allowing for the Son of YHWH to incarnate and save the world. YHWH planned a "rescue mission" in Eden, after the fall of Adam and Eve, that led to the formation of Israel, a priestly nation that would create the sacred space for the incarnation. After the incarnation, martyrdom and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the nation of Israel had accomplished its mission. It's now through faith in Messiah-Jesus that one joins Israel, not through pedigree, as it was before Christ.

Non-believing Jews think they're still God's "chosen people", ignoring the essence of why their ancestors were chosen. It all revolved around the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Jew who split time and convinced the world to follow Him into paradise.

Jesus/Yehoshua/Joshua = The Salvation of YHWH. He leads the mixed multitude into the land of milk and honey (eternal life). Without him, you will die in the wilderness (in your sins).


Actually, if you start reading from 52, you will see explicit mention of the people as the subject of the conversation. That subject is then called the servant. I can show you how the nouns and pronouns work if you need me to.

You're completely ignoring everything I'm saying. The true, perfect, archetypical servant is the Messiah, who suffers for the world and redeems it. He's the one who leads the world to paradise. There is a deeper meaning in Isaiah 53, which you refuse to recognize. You only acknowledge deeper meaning in the Hebrew Bible when it conforms to your rabbinic Judaic theology and beliefs.

You put a few different claims in this statement. The first is true -- if Jews kept the Torah properly and consistently, we wouldn't go through suffering. But we haven't, so we do. Then you bring in the word "redeemer" which isn't a very good word to use as it doesn't actually describe the messiah.

It doesn't describe the messiah as you as an adherent of rabbinic Judaism, understand what and who Messiah is. The Messiah for us isn't just a political leader, He is the incarnation of God's Son. The perfect image of God, who takes the place of the first Adam, becoming the second Adam and new head of YHWH's creation. In Him, we are restored and regenerated. Re-born into the Kingdom of God.

You also throw in the word "savior" but your meaning is not clear.

He is Yehoshua/Jesus/Joshua, whose name in Hebrew means: "Salvation of YHWH" or "YHWH Saves". He saves us from death, both spiritually and eventually physically as well. The spiritual is the most important aspect of our nature that has to be redeemed and regenerated, before everything else. Redemption is not just political or people entering paradise, without first being cleansed and reborn within, as new creations. Messiah redeems the human mind and spirit, not just the body, or a person's material condition.

I didn't say it wasn't. I showed how the name was used in Isaiah.

I was responding to another individual, who was denying that the name of David was used metaphorically for the Messiah. There are different levels of meaning in the Hebrew Bible. Peshat, Remez, Derash, and Sod. Each represents a different approach to studying the Bible.

1. Peshat (פְּשָׁט‎): This represents the literal interpretation of the text. It involves understanding the basic, literal meaning.
2. Remez (רֶמֶז‎): This is the allegorical interpretation. It assumes that the text has a hidden or deeper meaning beyond the literal sense. This often involves symbolic and metaphorical interpretations.
3. Derash (דְּרַשׁ‎): This is the comparative or homiletical interpretation (Midrash). It involves understanding the text through narratives, parables, and other educational methods. It often includes extrapolations or interpretations of the text that are not evident in the literal reading.
4. Sod (סוֹד‎): This is the mystical or secret interpretation. It's often associated with Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. This level involves seeking a deeper spiritual meaning of the text, often involving esoteric and mystical interpretations.

PRDS means "garden" or "orchard". Christians we see Yehoshua/Jesus in Isaiah 53 and so did the Jewish apostles of Jesus. So we follow their understanding of the Hebrew Bible and our experience confirms it. We witness miracles in Jesus Name, and we experience the presence of the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha'Kodesh). The Messiah is the one who baptizes and immerses with the holy fire of God.

Luke 3:16: "John answered them all, 'I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.'"

Exactly. I hope this shows how there is no value to your insistence of a plain old "yes it is."

I know it's true and so do all of the other Christians, whoever receives God's grace to see it. You will deny it as all non-believers do, but that doesn't alter the reality, which we know and experience as Christians. My concern right now are the Christians who are reading your falsehood, lest they get bewitched, as some of them do by Jewish anti-missionaries. To the Christians I say, don't drink the rabbinic Kool-Aid. It will kill you spiritually.


He is not mentioned explicitly anywhere in Jewish texts.

The Messiah doesn't have to be explicitly mentioned by name in the Hebrew Bible.

What chapters did I delete? I don't recall deleting anything. I catalogued uses of a term.I cited verses where the text makes that clear, yes."the signpost" What is that? Is that some fanciful interpretation that you insert? Because it isn't part of the text.

For you, it's a "fanciful interpretation" because you're not born again and filled with God's spirit. We know the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is referring to the Messiah and Savior of the world, who saves everyone through His suffering. You can disagree but that's fine, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I write this for the sake of the Christians who might get deceived by your carnal, dead arguments.


And Jews know how to read the text as a whole.

Most Jews don't know much about the Bible. The ones like you who know Hebrew, lack Jesus Christ, hence you're reading Isaiah 53 carnally, failing to see the deeper meaning of the text, misapplying it to the nation of Israel. It's not Israel that suffers unjustly, it's the Messiah. The Son of YHWH, incarnates, lives a perfect life, and through His martyrdom, rises from the dead, as the head of humanity. The Second Adam leads the mixed multitude into the land of milk and honey (immortality and righteousness). An intimate relationship with YHWH Father, in and through His perfect Son and the power of the Holy Spirit (רוח הקודש / Ruach Ha'Kodesh).

so you start by saying "even though Jesus isn't there, nonetheless, I will say he is there."

Even though he's not explicitly, by Name, mentioned in Isaiah 53, He is nonetheless, there, because He is the Mashiach who saves through His suffering and resurrection. There is no other under heaven, through which we can be saved. Through one man we were consigned to corruption and death, due to his failure, and through another man we are saved, due to his victory and success.

DERECH HASHEM - THE RAMCHAL/Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto:

" The rule that the Community of the Future World [Olam Haba] is restricted only to those who attained perfection in their own right is not absolute. For it was also decreed that an individual can reach a level where he can partake of perfection and be included in the Community as the result of his association with a more worthy individual. The only difference is that he will remain on a lower level, since he is not included in the Community in his own right, but only through the association of another.[1]

The only ones who are cast aside completely from perfection, therefore, are those who are not worthy of it at all, neither through their own merit nor through the association with another. Because of this, the number who are saved from annihilation and allowed the ultimate bliss is maximized.

Those who cause others to partake in the World-to-Come will definitely be the foremost in the Community. They will be the leaders, while those who enter by virtue of their association with them will be beholden and dependent on them.

In order for this to be possible, all men were originally bound to each other, as our Sages teach us, “All Israel are responsible for one another.”[2] As a result of this, each individual is bound to everyone else, and no man is counted separately. Hashem’s Attribute of Good is the stronger, however, and if the guilt for sin is shared by others, this must certainly be true of the merit associated with good deeds."

///// IF WE ARE DAMNED THROUGH THE FIRST ADAM, WE CAN BE SAVED/REDEEMED BY THE SECOND ADAM = THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME = JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH / YEHOSHUA HA'MASHIACH / JOSHUA THE JEWISH MAN WHO LEADS THE MIXED MULTITUDE INTO THE STATE OF IMMORTALITY IN YHWH'S KINGDOM.//////

View attachment 807901

View attachment 807904​

The RAMCHAL continues:

" As a result of this principle, suffering and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik ( righteous person) as an atonement for his entire generation.[3] This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed on him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time, is himself elevated to a very great degree. For a tzaddik such as this is made into one of the leaders in the Community of the Future World, as discussed earlier.

Such suffering also includes cases where a tzaddik suffers because his entire generation deserves great punishments, bordering on annihilation, but is spared via the tzaddik’s suffering. In atoning for his generations, through his suffering, this tzaddik saves these people in this world, and als greatly benefits them in the World-to-Come.

In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."

View attachment 807905

View attachment 807906

///// YEHOSHUA/JESUS = THE SALVATION OF YHWH. ​

THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME. THE JEWISH MAN WHO THE GOYIM SEEK AND FALL PROSTRATE BEFORE. THE TRUE GLORY OF ISRAEL...///////


The Ramchal Continues:

"According to the original plan, the sequence of worldly events required that man undergo at least some suffering before both he and the world could attain perfection. This was required by the very fact that one of the basic concepts of man’s predicament was that Hashem should hold back His Light and hide His Presence. This became all the more necessary as a result of the corruption and spiritual damage caused by man’s many sins, which held the good back even more and caused Hashem’s presence to become all the more hidden. The world and everything in it are therefore in a degraded evil state, and require that Hashem’s unfathomable wisdom bring about numerous chains of events to achieve their rectification.

Among the most important elements of this sequence is the requirement that man be punished for his wickedness until the Attribute of Justice is satisfied. Hashem arranged matters, however, so that select perfect individuals could rectify things for others, as discussed earlier. The Attribute of Justice therefore relates to them rather than to the rest of the world in general.

Individuals such as these, however, are themselves perfect, and are therefore worthy only of good. The only reason that they suffer is because of others, and the Attribute of Justice must therefore be as satisfied with a small amount of suffering on their part as with a large amount on the part of those who actually sinned.

Beyond that, the merit and power of these tzaddikim is also increased because of such suffering, and this gives them even greater ability to rectify the damage of others. They can therefore not only rectify their own generation, but can also correct all of the spiritual damage done from the beginning, from the time of the very first sinners.

It is obvious that individuals such as these will ultimately be the foremost leaders in the Perfected Community, and the ones who are the very closest to Hashem.[4]

All this is not only the result of justice, but also follows from the actual order of things. As a result of man’s sins, corruption is increased and incorporated into both man and the world. This in turn causes Hashem’s Light to be increasingly retracted and hidden. The more that this corruption is cleansed, on the other hand, and the more people that are purified of it, the more Hashem’s Light is once again revealed, step by step.

Suffering is the thing that Hashem created to cleanse the pollution, both in general and in particular. Thus, through the suffering of these select individuals, creation in general is cleansed, and step by step the world is brought closer to perfection.[5]"

Refereces:

[1]. Zohar 3:220b, Tikkunei Zohar 32 (76b), that Tzaddikim enter Gehinom to help others leave. Cf. Anaf Yosef on Tanchuma, Vayeshev 3, and Zohar Chadash 25a. This is even true of those who the Talmud says have no portion in the World-to-Come. They can still share the portion of a Tzaddik: cf. R. Bachya on Vayikra 18:29, quoted in Shikchas Leket (in Yalkut Reuveni, Warsaw 5644) 217a, s.v. Mah; quoted in Ta’amei ha-Minhagim, Kuntres Acharon § 536 (p.232). Also see Ramasayim Tzofim 15 on Tana D’vei Eliyahu Rabbah (p. 64a). Also see Kesubos 111b

[2]. Shavuos 39a, Sanhedrin 27b, Sifra and Rashi on Vayikra 26:37. Also see Shabbos 55a, Vayikra Rabbah 4:6, Tana D’vei Eliyahu Rabbah 11 (66b); Mechilta on Shemos 19:6. Reagrding the logic that people should be able to help each other spiritually for this reason, see Sotah 37b, Rashi as loc. S.v. Amar Rav Mesharshia. We also find that because of this mutual responsibility, one person can sometimes fulfill the responsibility of another, cf. Rashi, Rosh Hashanah 29a, s.v. Af Al Pi; Ran ibid. (on Rif 8a), s.v. Tani; Ran, Pesachim (on Rif 27b), s.v. Sheyuchal; Magen Avraham 167:40.

[3]. Nega’im 2:1; Bertinoro ad loc. s.v. Beis; Bava Metzia 84b; Yerushalmis Berachos 2:8 (20a), Bereshis Rabbah 33:1, 44:6, Vayikra Rabbah 2:5; Shir ha-Shirim Rabbah 6:6, Koheles Rabbah 5:14, Pesikta 30 (191a), Zohar 165a, 167b, 1:180a, 2:10b, 2:36b, 2:53a, 2:195a, 2:212a, 2:269a, 2:257a, 3:17b, 3:38a, 3:46b, 3:118a, Sefer Chasidim § 528. Cf. Shabbos 139b, Sanhedrin 39a, Zohar 3:20b, 3:115a. Ramban on Shemos 32:32, Ikkarim 4:13. We thus find that the death of the righteous atones for the sins of their generation: cf. Shabbos 33b, Mo’ed Katan 25a, 28a, Yerushalmi Yoma 1:1 (2a), Shemos Rabbah 35:4, Vayikra Rabbah 27:7, Pesikta 27 (174b).

[4]. Rabbi Shimon thus said that he could rectify the entire world from the time of creation, and therefor he also attained a highest level in the Future World: Sukkah 45b, Maharsha ad loc., Yerushalmi Berachos 9:2 (65a), Avos d’Rabbi Nasan 16:4, Eruvin 65a top, Sefer Chasidim § 611. Cf. Yoma 38b, Chagigah 12b, Mechilta on Shemos 15:1, Bereshis Rabbah 75:11; Tanchuma, B’shalach 10, Nitzavim 2. Also see Ta’anis 8a from Yeshayahu 64:4; Menoras ha-Maor 51:2 (299). Cf. Daniel 12:3, Rashi as loc.; Tanchuma, Noach 7; Berachos 17b, Ta’anis 24b, Chullin 26a, Yerushalmi Ma’aser Sheni 5:5 (35a); Ta’anis 21b, Bava Metzia 85a, Sanhedrin 114a.

[5]. Cf. Bereshis Rabbah 19:7, that the sins of mankind caused the Shechinah (Divine Presence) to depart from the world, whereas the righteous were able to bring it back.

---------------

What you just read above, is a renowned rabbi, within Judaism, known as the RAMCHAL, who sounds like a Christian, when he describes how the suffering of the righteous, can redeem, save, cleanse, and purify others. He sounds like a Christian. The more "mystical" rabbinic Judaism gets, the more Christian it becomes. Christians have been saying what you just read from the RAMCHAL, for 2000 years. The Mashiach comes to suffer and redeem, save the world. Only YHWH can guide you to this fact. I can't do it. Only the Holy Spirit can draw you to this truth and lift the veil off of your eyes.


Only because you insist that 53 is about the messiah. Except it isn't, so your claim to a "deeper meaning" is more a "wishful thinking." You don't have to believe it, but those of us who study the text see the reality of it.

Only because it's true. Those who are born again and spirit-filled know Jesus Christ/Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach, is the suffering servant. It's supernatural, supra-rational, knowledge. You can be born again too, but it's up to you. You don't stop being Jewish, when you believe Yehoshua is the Son of the Living God and Savior of the world. You can continue practicing your customs, but you will know, just as all born again Christians know, that their faith is founded on truth. Jesus is truly The Way, The Truth and The Life. The One who leads us all into the land of milk and honey. He is our Sabbath.

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh will come, and to him shall the subduing of the peoples be” (Gn 49:10).


No, it never means Jesus and he wasn't a messiah.

He is and will always be the Savior and Messiah. There is no one else but Him.

View attachment 807913
MASHIACH BEN YOSEPH - TZADICK OF ALL TZADICKIM. THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME.

View attachment 807918

Martyred upon the TAV/TAW/CROSS:​

​

"Tav is the last letter of the Hebrew Alphabet. Meaning mark, sign, omen, or seal, it is the symbol of truth, perfection, and completion. It represents the restoration Tikkun תיקון of all of existence. It is a return to the essence and purpose of one’s life. It represents completion, before beginning again with the original Oneness of the Aleph.

The Tav shows us that the end was set from the beginning, as Tav is the final letter of בראשית Beresheet, “In the Beginning”, the first word of the Torah/Bible. It is the idea that the Creator set in motion all of existence in order to reach a final state of perfection, the fulfillment of all of creation. It is also the completion of Truth אמת Emet.

However, as soon as the Tav is reached, we begin again immediately by going back to the Aleph, the one source of everything. The end is never really the end, but the beginning of something new.

The Zohar states: "the tav makes an impression on the Ancient of Days." "The Ancient of Days" refers to the sublime pleasure innate within the "crown" (Will) of Divine Emanation. The letter tav (here referring to the "Kingdom of the Infinite One, Blessed be He") leaves its impression on the "Ancient of Days." The impression is the secret of simple faith in G-d's ultimate omnipresence the Infinite present in the finite, for "there is none like unto Him" (the conclusion of the above quotation from the Zohar). "

Source: The letter TAV

כולם = Koloom. Nothing. The Messiah is reduced to nothing, upon the TAV. He entered the grave, and it spit Him out, because death had no authority over him. He kept the Torah, perfectly. The incarnation of the Sar Gadol, the Son of the Living God, YHWH. The Mission of Israel, was to create a holy-place for the incarnation. He would not be passed through the fire, sacrificed to demons:

​

He would not be sacrificed to the fallen angels you heard in those videos. Israel's mission, was to make sure the Sar Gadol, the Mashiach, would incarnate and complete His mission, of redeeming YHWH's creation. Israel was chosen for that reason. If you must take pride, take pride in the fact that the Savior and King of the world is a Jewish man from Nazareth. Before Him, we fall prostrate.

Like the ones about Cyrus, which I quoted. And about Isaiah, which i quoted. Both are referred to by the root for messiah.

Yes, there are many anointed ones, but there is only one anointed who saves the world. He is Shilo, the one who takes the sceptre from Judah, and rules the Earth. Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach leads us all into the eternal Kingdom of YHWH. He saves the human spirit from annihilation, leading it into the land of milk and honey, the true Israel (Garden Of Eden) = Immortality in YHWH's Kingdom (In His Light).


That is your belief, yes.

I know it, it's not just a belief. Those who are born again and spirit filled, also know it. They're not impressed with your anti-Christ/anti-Messiah, carnal arguments.

There is no "bar nasha." Learn the words before you try to use them. And all you have done is insert your personal belief in the place of what the text says.

I interpret it like many rabbis do. The angel in Daniel 7 interprets Daniel's vision, identifying the beasts as the nations that don't have God's divine instructions. The human being or "Barnasha"/בַּרְנָשָׁא, "Son Of Man", is the embodiment of the tzadikim, the righteous/saints. However, there are also rabbis who interpret that Son of Man as Mashiach. So, we see there an example of a community of tzadikim, who are embodying the Mashiach. It's the remnant of Israel that keeps God's divine instructions and also Mashiach. It can be both. If you say that the barnasha represents the saints, you are correct. If you say that the barnasha represents Mashiach, you are also correct. It represents both.

But, again, that's just a statement of your belief. It isn't a function of the texts' meaning. Sorry you can't see that because of the blinders you prefer to wear.

Yes the text itself points to what I am saying and even rabbis of your rabbinic religion, agree with me, not with you.

Damn you are annoying. Is it any wonder why many people abhor christianity as you preach it?

You bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people whatever they believe or don't believe. Whatever the truth may be you don't know it. Way to go, you nonsense believing lowlife. If I were you I'd find another hobby. You may be an amazing parrot, but you really suck at acting, and some things just can't be faked joker. You don't believe your own bullshit. Its obvious.

 

[Red Front]

Damn you are annoying. Is it any wonder why many people abhor christianity as you preach it?

You bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people whatever they believe or don't believe. Whatever the truth may be you don't know it. Way to go, you nonsense believing golem.

Hate all you want, but Jesus is real.

​

 

[rosends]

Right.

In kosher law the "flesh" represents the "teaching" of animals which represent human archetypes.

No, in kosher law, the flesh represents the animals and the teaching of the animals represents the teaching of the animals. Any "human archetype" you want to introduce here isn't part of the law.

Isn't that exactly what I said? I didn't stutter. Whats your problem? Perplexed are you? Damn.

Now that I see what you said I can conclusively say that it makes no sense. Grammatically I have it figured out but it is a fanciful piece of your personal fiction so don't expect it to make sense to anyone else.

You must be one of those guys who wants to turn Israel into a dictatorship. Good luck with your fancy schmancy glorified slaughterhouse temple plans. I bet there is a high priest in waiting...lol..

Nice of you to draw a conclusion about my politics. I mean, you are wrong, but it is important for you to have a hobby.

There are too many people in this day and age who are too smart to fall for that scam yet again.

And too many who are wise to Christianity's errors. Go figure.

 

[BreezeWood]

to what jews does "paid by THE JEWS to point him out..." refer ? who is seeking whose
"favor"?

really, why deny history ....

to reveal that Judas Iscariot, a disciple of Jesus, was secretly negotiating with the chief priests about what they would be willing to pay in order for him to lead them to Jesus. The rabbie's counted out thirty silver coins and gave them to Judas.

to live in denial will never solve one's problems. or their makebelieve religion.

 

[hobelim]

Hate all you want,

lol.. Why is it that every time I expose a liar for lying they accuse me of hatred or being anti catholic or antisemitic or even worse, a liberal.? lol. Nevermind. I already know.

but Jesus is real.

Jesus is real. I agree.

YOU ARE NOT REAL. You are an actor and lying fraud.

Just not a very good one.

 

[Red Front]

No, in kosher law, the flesh represents the animals and the teaching of the animals represents the teaching of the animals. Any "human archetype" you want to introduce here isn't part of the law.

Now that I see what you said I can conclusively say that it makes no sense. Grammatically I have it figured out but it is a fanciful piece of your personal fiction so don't expect it to make sense to anyone else.

Nice of you to draw a conclusion about my politics. I mean, you are wrong, but it is important for you to have a hobby.

And too many who are wise to Christianity's errors. Go figure.

Pentecostal Christianity is the fastest-growing religious group in the world.

 

[Red Front]

lol.. Why is it that every time I expose a liar for lying they accuse me of hatred or being anti catholic or antisemitic or even worse, a liberal.? lol. Nevermind. I already know.


Jesus is real. I agree.

YOU ARE NOT REAL. You are an actor and lying fraud.

Just not a very good one.

On what grounds am I a "lying fraud"?

 

[hobelim]

On what grounds am I a "lying fraud"?

First things first.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything that you say can and will be used against you.

Do you understand? Entiendes?

Capisci?

 

[Red Front]

First things first.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything that you say can and will be used against you.

Do you understand? Entiendes?

Capisci?

You're saying I'm a liar and fraud, but you can't explain why you believe that? Your charge against me is based on what? What am I lying about? Why do you believe I'm a "fraud"? If you refuse to answer that simple question with a rational, well-supported answer, then you have nothing but empty accusations. You're a slanderer.

 

[irosie91]

The Jews wanted Jesus killed because he came as king seeking peace. They wanted a warlord messiah.

BS----at no time or place is the messiah described as a warlord----Mr. Nutz is thinking
of the Mass Murdering Pig ---Richard the FAT-CAT hearted

 

[rosends]

It doesn't matter what you believe. Without Jesus Christ, you're dead in your sins. No matter how many "good works" you perform, it will not grant you salvation or entrance into God's Kingdom. You need to pick up your cross and follow Him into the Kingdom, in a state of divine grace and faith.

It doesn't matter what you believe. You have the right to whatever story you like.

You argued that in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, Jesus wasn't mentioned. I simply pointed out that in the same chapter that we were discussing, Israel wasn't explicitly mentioned either.

Except that if you follow the grammar, Israel IS mentioned. Start from 52 because there really is no division between 52 and 53.

If you now want to modify your argument by saying that in the book of Isaiah, Israel is identified as a servant of God.

What am I modifying? I have been citing this understanding the whole time.

Isaiah has Messianic prophecies, that even the rabbis recognize, so it's not beyond the pale, to identify the servant in Isaiah 53 as the Messiah, especially when the servant in Isaiah 53 is suffering unjustly.

You misunderstand what the rabbis say and when they say it. Isaiah has specific instances which certain rabbis have ALSO applied to a messianic idea. Strange how none of those rabbis thinks it applies to Jesus. So you like if they say "messiah" but don't then follow their understanding that it isn't Jesus.

You're completely ignoring everything I'm saying. The true, perfect, archetypical servant is the Messiah, who suffers for the world and redeems it. He's the one who leads the world to paradise. There is a deeper meaning in Isaiah 53, which you refuse to recognize. You only acknowledge deeper meaning in the Hebrew Bible when it conforms to your rabbinic Judaic theology and beliefs.

And you are inventing a reading to justify your theological needs. There is nothing in the text to support it so you claim "deeper meaning" so that you can hang onto something. Good luck with that invention.

It doesn't describe the messiah as you as an adherent of rabbinic Judaism, understand what and who Messiah is.

This is true, and since the concept of the messiah was given to us, you might want to pay attention to how we understand it instead of coopting it and changing it to fit your needs.

The Messiah for us isn't just a political leader, He is the incarnation of God's Son.

Great. That just isn't what the messiah was or will be.

He is Yehoshua/Jesus/Joshua, whose name in Hebrew means: "Salvation of YHWH" or "YHWH Saves".

God saves. Exactly. That isn't the role of the messiah. At least not in the sense of the y-sh-ayin root.

PRDS

Invoking the rabbinic concept of Pardes should mean that you accept the authority of the rabbinic statements. Then you should know this one "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto" which should help you understand how rabbis can see the Isaiah instances as applying secondarily to a deeper idea.

My concern right now are the Christians who are reading your falsehood, lest they get bewitched, as some of them do by Jewish anti-missionaries.

you are worried that I will "bewitch" people by pointing out what Judaism says? So how about this -- you stick with what your gospels say so that Christians can believe it and I'll stick with the Jewish texts. What? You mean you NEED the Jewish texts to establish Christian ideas and if I point out what the Jewish texts actually say that calls Christian understanding into doubt? And you want to rely on rabbinic ideas when it is convenient but otherwise they will bewitch? That's sad.

For you, it's a "fanciful interpretation" because you're not born again and filled with God's spirit.

Or in need of external inventions.

We know the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is referring to the Messiah and Savior of the world, who saves everyone through His suffering. You can disagree but that's fine, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I write this for the sake of the Christians who might get deceived by your carnal, dead arguments.

And I'm just pointing out the errors of your inventions for the sake of, well, anyone who might not want to be misled by all the errors and inventions.

hence you're reading Isaiah 53 carnally, failing to see the deeper meaning of the text, misapplying it to the nation of Israel.

Actually,. I'm reading it accurately, not inserting stuff that isn't there. If you actually read that section of Isaiah, you would see who is talking and about whom and you would realize that your understanding is flawed.

Even though he's not explicitly, by Name, mentioned in Isaiah 53, He is nonetheless, there, because He is the Mashiach who saves through His suffering and resurrection. There is no other under heaven, through which we can be saved. Through one man we were consigned to corruption and death, due to his failure, and through another man we are saved, due to his victory and success.

"Jesus is in there because I believe in Jesus and so even if he's not in there, he must be in there because I believe in him." Good luck with that.

///// IF WE ARE DAMNED THROUGH THE FIRST ADAM, WE CAN BE SAVED/REDEEMED BY THE SECOND ADAM = THE JEW WHO SPLIT TIME = JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH / YEHOSHUA HA'MASHIACH / JOSHUA THE JEWISH MAN WHO LEADS THE MIXED MULTITUDE INTO THE STATE OF IMMORTALITY IN YHWH'S KINGDOM.//////

So you misunderstand the Ramchal. If we are all "reduced" because of the events in Eden, then following commandments and doing acts of piety now can affect all of us and raise us all up now.
The important line you seem to ignore from the Ramchal is "This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."

If you read Jewish discussions of suffering and atonement you would learn that the Ramchal's statement falls in line with a classic Jewish idea about the suffering and death of the righteous. One of the things it does is inspire people to repent and improve, thus bringing about atonement. It isn't magic or automatic vicarious anything. It is about (as the Ramchal said) bringing about a chain of events. Those people suffer as a sig to others, driving others to repent without having to suffer as much. If you want more information about this so that you don't look so foolish when bringing up the Ramchal, just let me know. You also seem to be stepping into some of the more complex ideas of klipot and the original divine light. It isn't appropriate to move on to Zoharic ideas unless you understand the basics more thoroughly. If you just want to pick and choose in order to make your point, then feel free, but in Judaism, learning is cumulative and ordered so that things make sense in a context built on a foundation. For example, the section and footnotes you snipped led you to misunderstand the talmud. Had you studied Sukkah 45b you would see that RashBi's statement isn't about absolving anyone of sin and certainly not through death.

I'm assuming that you are citing the Derech Hashem because you already studied the Messilat Yesharim -- they need to be learned in order to be understood. So you did that, right?

What you just read above, is a renowned rabbi, within Judaism, known as the RAMCHAL, who sounds like a Christian, when he describes how the suffering of the righteous, can redeem, save, cleanse, and purify others.

You hear in him an echo of Christianity because that's the lens through which you read it. A Jew reading it wouldn't get any of that because the Jew would be reading him through the understanding of Jewish ideas and other Jewish texts. But I guess misappropriating rabbinic statements when they benefit you is a method that works for you. What's really funny is that nothing in the Ramchal talks about any of this as a role of the messiah.

כולם = Koloom.

Wrong word. Sigh. you mean כּלוּם. What you wrote is Kulom, meaning "all". If you don't know the stuff, you are better off not putting anything there so you don't look so foolish.

He would not be sacrificed to the fallen angels

"Fallen angels"? Ugh. More Christian stuff. Not a Jewish concept.

I know it, it's not just a belief. Those who are born again and spirit filled, also know it. They're not impressed with your anti-Christ/anti-Messiah, carnal arguments.

It is just a belief, and one informed by misunderstandings and grand (non-biblical) statements.

The human being or "Barnasha"/בַּרְנָשָׁא, "Son Of Man",

No, the word ברנשא does not appear at all in Judaic books. Daniel 7:13 makes reference to a figure in a dream who looks human, and the text says כְּבַ֥ר אֱנָ֖שׁ (k'var enosh). Again, if you don't know the language, don't try to use it.

is the embodiment of the tzadikim, the righteous/saints.

According to whom? I can give a citation for the understanding that the phrase refers to the future messiah. Can you show me the source that says it refers to the saints? In fact, the primary commentator who explains Bar Enosh as referring to the messiah explicitly says that the other references to the holy ones (such as in 7:18) are NOT references to the messiah. So drawing them together is a huge error. Delbert Burkett made the connection in a book he wrote specifically about Christianity, unrelated to any Jewish thought. [and Burkett is of the opinion that originally, "Bar Enosh" was not a messianic reference and only became so through rabbinic interpretation, so your claim that it can be the messiah requires you to accept rabbinic interpretive authority. But you do that only when convenient] If you want to go according to him, then you shouldn't go according to the rabbis. Unless you want to pick and choose and be inconsistent. Your call, I guess.

It's the remnant of Israel that keeps God's divine instructions and also Mashiach. It can be both.

No, it can't. Different words/phrases refer to different groups/people.

 

[rosends]

Pentecostal Christianity is the fastest-growing religious group in the world.

I didn't know that we were playing the non-sequitur game!

 

[BULLDOG]

God is the life giver. He breathed life into the corpse of Adam, and the corpse of the second Adam, Jesus Christ. There is no scientific explanation for life, therefore we defer to the Biblical narrative.

All very interesting, and I often recieve that answer even when it has nothing to do with my question. This is another time when it has nothing to do with my question.

 

[Red Front]

It doesn't matter what you believe. You have the right to whatever story you like.

Except that if you follow the grammar, Israel IS mentioned. Start from 52 because there really is no division between 52 and 53.

What am I modifying? I have been citing this understanding the whole time.

You misunderstand what the rabbis say and when they say it. Isaiah has specific instances which certain rabbis have ALSO applied to a messianic idea. Strange how none of those rabbis thinks it applies to Jesus. So you like if they say "messiah" but don't then follow their understanding that it isn't Jesus.

And you are inventing a reading to justify your theological needs. There is nothing in the text to support it so you claim "deeper meaning" so that you can hang onto something. Good luck with that invention.

This is true, and since the concept of the messiah was given to us, you might want to pay attention to how we understand it instead of coopting it and changing it to fit your needs.

Great. That just isn't what the messiah was or will be.


God saves. Exactly. That isn't the role of the messiah. At least not in the sense of the y-sh-ayin root.

Invoking the rabbinic concept of Pardes should mean that you accept the authority of the rabbinic statements. Then you should know this one "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto" which should help you understand how rabbis can see the Isaiah instances as applying secondarily to a deeper idea.

you are worried that I will "bewitch" people by pointing out what Judaism says? So how about this -- you stick with what your gospels say so that Christians can believe it and I'll stick with the Jewish texts. What? You mean you NEED the Jewish texts to establish Christian ideas and if I point out what the Jewish texts actually say that calls Christian understanding into doubt? And you want to rely on rabbinic ideas when it is convenient but otherwise they will bewitch? That's sad.

Or in need of external inventions.

And I'm just pointing out the errors of your inventions for the sake of, well, anyone who might not want to be misled by all the errors and inventions.

Actually,. I'm reading it accurately, not inserting stuff that isn't there. If you actually read that section of Isaiah, you would see who is talking and about whom and you would realize that your understanding is flawed.

"Jesus is in there because I believe in Jesus and so even if he's not in there, he must be in there because I believe in him." Good luck with that.

So you misunderstand the Ramchal. If we are all "reduced" because of the events in Eden, then following commandments and doing acts of piety now can affect all of us and raise us all up now.
The important line you seem to ignore from the Ramchal is "This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."

If you read Jewish discussions of suffering and atonement you would learn that the Ramchal's statement falls in line with a classic Jewish idea about the suffering and death of the righteous. One of the things it does is inspire people to repent and improve, thus bringing about atonement. It isn't magic or automatic vicarious anything. It is about (as the Ramchal said) bringing about a chain of events. Those people suffer as a sig to others, driving others to repent without having to suffer as much. If you want more information about this so that you don't look so foolish when bringing up the Ramchal, just let me know. You also seem to be stepping into some of the more complex ideas of klipot and the original divine light. It isn't appropriate to move on to Zoharic ideas unless you understand the basics more thoroughly. If you just want to pick and choose in order to make your point, then feel free, but in Judaism, learning is cumulative and ordered so that things make sense in a context built on a foundation. For example, the section and footnotes you snipped led you to misunderstand the talmud. Had you studied Sukkah 45b you would see that RashBi's statement isn't about absolving anyone of sin and certainly not through death.

I'm assuming that you are citing the Derech Hashem because you already studied the Messilat Yesharim -- they need to be learned in order to be understood. So you did that, right?

You hear in him an echo of Christianity because that's the lens through which you read it. A Jew reading it wouldn't get any of that because the Jew would be reading him through the understanding of Jewish ideas and other Jewish texts. But I guess misappropriating rabbinic statements when they benefit you is a method that works for you. What's really funny is that nothing in the Ramchal talks about any of this as a role of the messiah.

Wrong word. Sigh. you mean כּלוּם. What you wrote is Kulom, meaning "all". If you don't know the stuff, you are better off not putting anything there so you don't look so foolish.

"Fallen angels"? Ugh. More Christian stuff. Not a Jewish concept.

It is just a belief, and one informed by misunderstandings and grand (non-biblical) statements.

No, the word ברנשא does not appear at all in Judaic books. Daniel 7:13 makes reference to a figure in a dream who looks human, and the text says כְּבַ֥ר אֱנָ֖שׁ (k'var enosh). Again, if you don't know the language, don't try to use it.

According to whom? I can give a citation for the understanding that the phrase refers to the future messiah. Can you show me the source that says it refers to the saints? In fact, the primary commentator who explains Bar Enosh as referring to the messiah explicitly says that the other references to the holy ones (such as in 7:18) are NOT references to the messiah. So drawing them together is a huge error. Delbert Burkett made the connection in a book he wrote specifically about Christianity, unrelated to any Jewish thought. [and Burkett is of the opinion that originally, "Bar Enosh" was not a messianic reference and only became so through rabbinic interpretation, so your claim that it can be the messiah requires you to accept rabbinic interpretive authority. But you do that only when convenient] If you want to go according to him, then you shouldn't go according to the rabbis. Unless you want to pick and choose and be inconsistent. Your call, I guess.

No, it can't. Different words/phrases refer to different groups/people.

As a Christian, if you have any questions about what Rosends is saying, just let me know. He ignores the points that I make and plays the pedantic critic. Don't be fooled by his anti-Christ arguments.

 

[rosends]

As a Christian, if you have any questions about what Rosends is saying, just let me know. He ignores the points that I make and plays the pedantic critic. Don't be fooled by his anti-Christ arguments.

As a Jew, if you have any questions about what Red Front is saying, just let me know. Red Front ignores what I have said, admits to introducing phantom "deep meanings" and does not know Hebrew, or much about Judaism. Don't be fooled by his flawed arguments in favor of Christianity.

 

[irosie91]

As a Christian, if you have any questions about what Rosends is saying, just let me know. He ignores the points that I make and plays the pedantic critic. Don't be fooled by his anti-Christ arguments.

"anti christ arguments?" I will explain Jesus to you, mr. front. He was literate in Hebrew and
the Jewish form of aramaic. He washed his hand before he ate and did not eat bacon and eggs.
He read the works of the talmudist Hillel. He was a pharisee ----semi-politically speaking