Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

[hobelim]

which is why we study the talmud -- this is the discussion of the law between learned men. Of course, one might also want to apply this to the idea of learning the Zohar but then 2 years isn't enough to prepare.

Moses said that the meaning wisdom and intent of the law was not arcane, hard to understand, but easily within the grasp of even the least intelligent person out there. That being said if the traditions in the Talmud that started after the death of Moses are right how is it that the history of the Jewish people reflects perfectly the long list of maledictions consequent to not complying with the Divine commands? Do you think anyone will ever comply with the literal letter of the law more perfectly than has already been done for thousands of years? Where are the blessings promised?

Have you ever heard a single word from the living God in your entire life? Any dreams, visions, or prophecies? How do you explain his complete absence unless you are not doing something right?

Is it too hard to believe that your learned men are wrong? How is that any better than christianity?

 

[Red Front]

yes----Jesus is presented in the NT as being in the LINE OF DAVID----SO? The lineage
described is via JOSEPH---the carpenter----he did not pass his HOUSE OF JUDAH
DNA to Jesus------or so the story goes. Muhummad is presented in the Koran as
being a direct descendant of Ishmael, an idea even more tenuous. Now!!! read some classical
Literature------even in the Greek Literature----the distant descendants of Menelaus
are described as Menelaus. The english word JEW ----is a translation from the
hebrew word JUDAH

You were wrong when you said that in the Hebrew Bible, the name of David is not used symbolically for the Messiah when it is. We disagree as far as Jesus/Yehoshua, not being the Messiah or a descendent of David. Have you "debunked" Christianity? No. The miracles that occur in Jesus Name are real, as well as the presence of God that is experienced by Christians. If you want to remain your sins, that's your prerogative.

 

[irosie91]

That's right, so why the self inflicted wounds post?

it was an allusion to come comments made by various prophets
about WOUNDS and the facts of religions in the region and even
today.

 

[irosie91]

You were wrong when you said that in the Hebrew Bible, the name of David is not used symbolically for the Messiah when it is. We disagree as far as Jesus/Yehoshua, not being the Messiah or a descendent of David. Have you "debunked" Christianity? No. The miracles that occur in Jesus Name are real, as well as the presence of God that is experienced by Christians. If you want to remain your sins, that's your prerogative.

you have expressed your faith based belief

 

[Billo_Really]

Does it get any better than this?

John MacArthur explains Jesus to Ben Shapiro.

You either accept Jesus is the Messiah, or that he is a blasphemer. There is no middle ground.

He also covers the animal sacrifice and why it was never good enough to cover for Israel’s sins.




Can any of you anti-Christs refute this?

Poor Ben, has no response.

He looks like Ted Nugent, without the guitar and bow and arrow prowess!

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The sinful must be purified before being with God. This is why sacrifices were made. The animal blood was considered the life force of the animal, and God would enact his purification on that instead of on the people, if they made the atonement. Now these animal sacrifices were a mere shadow of the true sacrifice to come, Jesus’s sacrifice as the Lamb of God. His sacrifice was the one final sacrifice for all mankind’s sins, past, present, and future. The animal sacrifices of the past were really pointing towards his sacrifice, just as taking the Eucharist today is reliving the sacrifice Jesus made in the past.

The forgiveness of sins is really Jesus paying that debt for you. So if you sin, you add to his suffering, assuming you ask for his forgiveness. Otherwise, you will pay for that sin yourself in the place of torment.

Jesus Was the First Protestant

This is how stupid the Christian superstition is: The boss wants to punish his employees for their incompetence. So he whips his son in front of them to make them work smarter.

Jesus was actually crucified for offending the High Priests. But when Christianity itself became tyrannical, because it was an arm of the hereditary ruling classes, the spin doctors of its own hierarchy came up with the atonement nonsense. They also blamed the Jews, who have been the scapegoat of the self-appointed rulers ever since.

 

[hobelim]

it was an allusion to come comments made by various prophets
about WOUNDS and the facts of religions in the region and even
today.

You have been hemorrhaging your life's blood ever since catholic meanies hurt your feelings when you were a little girl.

Talk about WOUNDS...

 

[rosends]

Moses said that the meaning wisdom and intent of the law was not arcane, hard to understand but easily within the grasp of even the least intelligent person out there.

That's not exactly what he said if you are referring to this
יא כִּי הַמִּצְוָה הַזֹּאת, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם--לֹא-נִפְלֵאת הִוא מִמְּךָ, וְלֹא רְחֹקָה הִוא. יב לֹא בַשָּׁמַיִם, הִוא: לֵאמֹר, מִי יַעֲלֶה-לָּנוּ הַשָּׁמַיְמָה וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ, וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ, וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה. יג וְלֹא-מֵעֵבֶר לַיָּם, הִוא: לֵאמֹר, מִי יַעֲבָר-לָנוּ אֶל-עֵבֶר הַיָּם וְיִקָּחֶהָ לָּנוּ, וְיַשְׁמִעֵנוּ אֹתָהּ, וְנַעֲשֶׂנָּה. יד כִּי-קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר, מְאֹד: בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ, לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ.
If you have a different quote, please pass it along

That being said if the traditions in the Talmud that started after the death of Moses are right how is it that the history of the Jewish people reflects perfectly the long list of maledictions consequent to not complying with the Divine commands?

Much of the talmud is not about what happened after Moses died, but we can ignore that for the moment. Meanwhile, regarding the material in the talmud and the people's intransigence,those two aspects are not in conflict. One can have a compendium of law and still have people who don't follow it.

Do you think anyone will ever comply with the literal letter of the law more perfectly than has already been done for thousands of years? Where are the blessings promised?

I'm not sure what you mean by the "literal letter of the law." We never followed the literal level of many laws. And we clearly haven't followed them well enough to merit the messianic blessings yet.

Have you ever heard a single word from the living God in your entire life? Any dreams, visions, or prophecies? How do you explain his absence if not because you are not doing something right?

I hear from God everyday by looking at the world around me (וְעַל נִסֶּֽיךָ שֶׁבְּכָל יוֹם עִמָּֽנוּ וְעַל נִפְלְ֒אוֹתֶֽיךָ וְטוֹבוֹתֶֽיךָ שֶׁבְּ֒כָל עֵת עֶֽרֶב וָבֹֽקֶר וְצָהֳרָֽיִם). Who said God is absent?

 

[hobelim]

Much of the talmud is not about what happened after Moses died, but we can ifgnore that for the moment.

No.

After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to testify against them. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have taught you to follow [the Law]. In days to come, disaster will fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and arouse his anger by what your hands have made.”

Temples can be made by human hands. The sanctuary of God, just like Divine providence, cannot.

One cannot comply with the command to refrain from the flesh of swine that do not ruminate literally without violating the deeper implications of the exact same law. Apply what you learned about the figurative language of the prophets to the Law given by God to Moses, a prophet.

Why wouldn't you? Traditions? Are you terrified? Afraid to think? Remember, "No one whose balls have been crushed can become a member of the assembly of the Lord." ITS THE LAW!

 

[Magnus]

Not that I have ever been able to find.

Have you ever wondered how many of the events recorded in the Diary of Anne Frank (or any journal) can be verified by an outside source?

LOL You think historians believe the Holocaust existed only because of Anne Frank's diary?

 

[irosie91]

You have been hemorrhaging your life's blood ever since catholic meanies hurt your feelings when you were a little girl.

Talk about WOUNDS...

those wounds were not self inflicted and are not VISIBLE

 

[hobelim]

those wounds were not self inflicted and are not VISIBLE

Not visible? In your dreams baby.

 

[irosie91]

Not visible? In your dreams baby.

not visible

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Seriously? The only proof you have that the sanhedrin did anything is because of the Christian (agendized) text. There are so many errors in the events as told that either you believe that the entire Jewish hierarchy threw out all of the rule books or you believe that a text written after the fact to advance a particular agenda got details wrong to make its fiction acceptable to the ignorant masses.

If you knew anything about the way Jewish law works, you would know that violating the sabbath as described, threatening to destroy the temple and claiming to be the messiah are not punishable by death, and if there is any death penalty, crucifixion is not allowed (nor is handing a religious criminal over to civil authorities). The entire set of accounts is so rife with error that it must have been written by someone who knew nothing of Jewish law.

Or, you can claim that the power structure that claimed to be the Jewish authority didn't follow any of its own rules and yet the public accepted it as its leadership. If you really think that, then I pity you.

Render Therefore Unto Caesar

Well then, the Romans must have had their own reasons for the Crucifixion.

Jesus was a Roman agent; his father was a Roman soldier who had sex with Mary. Jesus was assigned to divert the rebellious Jews into a pacifist concern with the afterlife (St. Augustine pushed the same unpatriotic escapism in The City of God).

But Jesus failed to get much of a following as the anti-imperialist uprising continued. So Pilate thought that making a martyr out of him might get him more followers who would otherwise kill Romans instead of ignoring their own secular status as subjects to a foreign power with foreign gods.

 

[rosends]

No.

um..."yes."

After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to testify against them. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have taught you to follow [the Law]. In days to come, disaster will fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and arouse his anger by what your hands have made.”

It is nice if you want to quote Dev 31. But why do you think it is relevant to plop that down there?

Temples can be made by human hands. The sanctuary of God, just like Divine providence, cannot.

That's true. But what's your point?

 

[rosends]

Well then, the Romans must have had their own reasons for the Crucifixion.

Yes -- to remove a political threat.

 

[hobelim]

It is nice if you want to quote Dev 31. But why do you think it is relevant to plop that down there?

Why is irrelevant. What I plopped down isn't.. lol...

That's true. But what's your point?

The sanctuary of God, just like Divine providence, cannot be made by human hands. Hello?

Are you hard of reading? Sheesh.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

It was foretold that the Messiah would be rejected by most men.

Isaiah 53 describes how he will be rejected, beaten, struck down and led to the slaughter.

Stupid Explanations Bible-Banging Bullies Preach to Us

The same things happened to many false Messiahs. This is what should be called "the Van Gogh fallacy." True, a great artist was only able to sell one painting. But there were at the time hundreds of other artists who didn't sell and produced paintings that are still considered to be junk. So Isaiah wasn't talking about Jesus; he was whining about himself.

 

[rosends]

Why is irrelevant. What I plopped down isn't.. lol...

So explain its relevance.

The sanctuary of God, just like Divine providence, cannot be made by human hands. Hello?

Are you hard of reading? Sheesh.

Did I claim otherwise? You are just dumping things in scattershot. Take a moment and a breath and try to formulate a coherent argument that uses quotes to support the point you are making. Just dropping a verse in, and then making a separate statement like "One cannot comply with the command to refrain from the flesh of swine that do not ruminate literally without violating the deeper implications of the exact same law" is useless.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Yes -- to remove a political threat.

Since When Is an Opiate a Threat to Tyranny?

Just the opposite. To punish an agent who had failed to stop the Jewish Revolt.