F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[DrainBamage]

To take MoronOnTheSteet's silliness in better perspective, this is was released a few days after his source:

IDF: No decision on advanced F-15s as yet | Jane's 360

Israel has not made a final decision on acquiring a more advanced version of the Boeing F-15 multirole fighter, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) told Jane's . "All possibilities regarding this issue are under IDF, IAF [Israeli Air Force], and the defence establishment's examination, and their position has yet to be decided," the IDF said in a statement on 20 November.

The Ynet news website reported on 19 November that there had been an official announcement that the IAF would acquire a more advanced version of the fighter called the F-15IA in addition to more Lockheed Martin F-35s, 50 of which have already been ordered. It indicated that the F-15IA is the Israeli designation for the F-15 Advanced Eagle. A Saudi version called the F-15SA is already in production and Qatar has ordered one called the F-15QA, the main difference between the two being the Qataris have opted for the Large Area Display cockpit made by the Israeli company Elbit. Ynet said there was initially US opposition to Israel's acquisition of the F-15IA if it resulted in a reduction of Israel's F-35 order. It cited a document approved by Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman shortly before he resigned on 14 November as saying that the IAF still intends to field three F-35 squadrons, each with 25 aircraft.

So not only did he post something that isn't necessarily true, there is an additional confirmation that IAF intends to field 75 F-35s just like they said they've been planning to as far back as 2012.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

To take MoronOnTheSteet's silliness in better perspective, this is was released a few days after his source:

IDF: No decision on advanced F-15s as yet | Jane's 360

Israel has not made a final decision on acquiring a more advanced version of the Boeing F-15 multirole fighter, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) told Jane's . "All possibilities regarding this issue are under IDF, IAF [Israeli Air Force], and the defence establishment's examination, and their position has yet to be decided," the IDF said in a statement on 20 November.

The Ynet news website reported on 19 November that there had been an official announcement that the IAF would acquire a more advanced version of the fighter called the F-15IA in addition to more Lockheed Martin F-35s, 50 of which have already been ordered. It indicated that the F-15IA is the Israeli designation for the F-15 Advanced Eagle. A Saudi version called the F-15SA is already in production and Qatar has ordered one called the F-15QA, the main difference between the two being the Qataris have opted for the Large Area Display cockpit made by the Israeli company Elbit. Ynet said there was initially US opposition to Israel's acquisition of the F-15IA if it resulted in a reduction of Israel's F-35 order. It cited a document approved by Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman shortly before he resigned on 14 November as saying that the IAF still intends to field three F-35 squadrons, each with 25 aircraft.

So not only did he post something that isn't necessarily true, there is an additional confirmation that IAF intends to field 75 F-35s just like they said they've been planning to as far back as 2012.

They still have the option to upgrade their older F-15C models they aquired in 1989.

 

[DrainBamage]

worthless F-35 sqdn

"Former Israel Air Force chief Maj.-Gen. (res.) Amir Eshel has called the F-35 “game changing,” saying that Israel gathered new intelligence during a single flight by the F-35 early 2017 that other reconnaissance and intelligence gathering systems would take weeks to gather."

Wow, you don't know the definition of the word "worthless" do you?

 

[Manonthestreet]

Come on dude, nobody needs to make any effort to look smart when responding to "All combat loaded aircraft fly at their listed max speed" guy who brags he posts the most links.

Okay let's look at your conclusion that their combat experience with F-35 was the reason they are buying more F-15s.

From May 17: Israel to link fleet upgrade with follow-on F-15I buy
Israel has proposed a deal to purchase additional Boeing F-15s, in a package that would also include upgrading the Israeli air force's existing I-model examples of the strike aircraft. Worth almost $4 billion, the potential purchase would include 25 twin-engined F-15Is in an advanced configuration. The new version's airframe would have an extended lifespan and enhanced features including a large-area cockpit display. The purchase of additional F-15s has recently gained priority for the Israeli air force's high command over ordering aircraft for a third squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35Is. The rationale for this decision is that while the F-35's stealth features are essential at the start of a conflict, the type will need be flown during later combat sorties in conjunction with assets capable of carrying a heavier weapons load.



They are going with a F-35/F-15 mix because they need a platform that can haul 5,000lb class weapons really far, hello Iran. If this news was coming out in May 17 they were making the analysis and proposal for F-15s well before F-35 was used in combat, so you have a serious logic fail.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-israelis-want-larger-more-modern-f-15-fleet
The decision to embark on this upgrade program was made two years ago, in spite of the nation’s planned purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35. An Israeli source says the air force is looking as far ahead as 40 years. “The F-15 has a lot of advantages. It can be equipped with Israeli-developed systems, an upgrade that can be performed on the F-35 to a clear limit,” says the source. Israel regards its F-15 fleet to be the backbone of its attacking capability. As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s..


Yet another logic fail, an F-35A costs significantly less than a brand new F-15I.

Like I said by time those F-15 are delivered it will be yrs down the road...….virtual cancellation without saying cancelled

The new F-15 IA was chosen by the IDF and Israel Air Force (IAF) as the new fighter jet to be acquired over the next decade, according to an official announcement Saturday. IAF to supplement F-35 stealth jets with upgraded F-15 IA
Unfortunately they were railroaded into buying 1 more worthless F-35 sqdn to get the F-15's

Your own cite shows that they not are buying any new F-15s. The are upgrading what they have. Funny, but they are upgrading really old F-15As but with low flight hours. They are upgrading them to the either the new E or the new X models. That makes them extremely dangerous and capable of taking on anything the Russians or the Chinese have. And they are buying more F-35As. This makes them able to take on Iran in a cakewalk.

The new F-15 IA was chosen by the IDF and Israel Air Force (IAF) as the new fighter jet to be acquired over the next decade, according to an official announcement Saturday.
OMG quit being so stupid.....see you've been making some of my arguments...ooops getting old cant remember what ya posted

Acquired means purchased. They aren't purchasing, they are upgrading what they already have. Your article can't quite makes it mind up what the real thing is. Says loads about it's authenticity.

But they are also buying the Saudi version at a whopping 110 mil a copy. It's a good mix using both the F-15SA along with the F-35A. The F-35 spots and the F-15 kills. Same goes for ground attack. The F-35 clears a corridor and the F-15 kills.

I may be old but I'm still smarter than you are. Then again, a rock sinking in the pond is smarter than you are.

I have no idea why you are down on the F-35 so bad. It's passed every test it's ever been given hands down. With the coming S-300 and 400 systems, the F-35 is more important in Israels stable than ever before. The Iranians want to put those systems in Syria right under where the F-35 has to refuel. I guess the Iranians are getting sick and tired of the F-35 overflights over Iran. Not to worry, when they start trying to setup those sites, the F-35, F-15 and the F-16 has nothing better to do than turn it all into a junk heap. And there isn't a thing Iran can do about it.

sticking wit that moronic take eh....doesn't make any sense to sink that much money into old airframes....take an entire rebuild......Slow and low still equals dead....but hey its invisible righiiigghttt…..keep believing the pr til combat shows otherwise. Its a niche plane just like F-117 was,,,,,,some are nice...too many and you've degraded your defense

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Like I said by time those F-15 are delivered it will be yrs down the road...….virtual cancellation without saying cancelled

The new F-15 IA was chosen by the IDF and Israel Air Force (IAF) as the new fighter jet to be acquired over the next decade, according to an official announcement Saturday. IAF to supplement F-35 stealth jets with upgraded F-15 IA
Unfortunately they were railroaded into buying 1 more worthless F-35 sqdn to get the F-15's

Your own cite shows that they not are buying any new F-15s. The are upgrading what they have. Funny, but they are upgrading really old F-15As but with low flight hours. They are upgrading them to the either the new E or the new X models. That makes them extremely dangerous and capable of taking on anything the Russians or the Chinese have. And they are buying more F-35As. This makes them able to take on Iran in a cakewalk.

The new F-15 IA was chosen by the IDF and Israel Air Force (IAF) as the new fighter jet to be acquired over the next decade, according to an official announcement Saturday.
OMG quit being so stupid.....see you've been making some of my arguments...ooops getting old cant remember what ya posted

Acquired means purchased. They aren't purchasing, they are upgrading what they already have. Your article can't quite makes it mind up what the real thing is. Says loads about it's authenticity.

But they are also buying the Saudi version at a whopping 110 mil a copy. It's a good mix using both the F-15SA along with the F-35A. The F-35 spots and the F-15 kills. Same goes for ground attack. The F-35 clears a corridor and the F-15 kills.

I may be old but I'm still smarter than you are. Then again, a rock sinking in the pond is smarter than you are.

I have no idea why you are down on the F-35 so bad. It's passed every test it's ever been given hands down. With the coming S-300 and 400 systems, the F-35 is more important in Israels stable than ever before. The Iranians want to put those systems in Syria right under where the F-35 has to refuel. I guess the Iranians are getting sick and tired of the F-35 overflights over Iran. Not to worry, when they start trying to setup those sites, the F-35, F-15 and the F-16 has nothing better to do than turn it all into a junk heap. And there isn't a thing Iran can do about it.

sticking wit that moronic take eh....doesn't make any sense to sink that much money into old airframes....take an entire rebuild......Slow and low still equals dead....but hey its invisible righiiigghttt…..keep believing the pr til combat shows otherwise. Its a niche plane just like F-117 was,,,,,,some are nice...too many and you've degraded your defense

The F-35A does more than Mach 1.6 in full combat trim. Probably closer to Mach 1.8. A full combat loaded F-15 can only do Mach 1.8. A fully loaded F-16 is lucky to make Mach 1.3. A fully loaded SU-30 (6 air to air missiles) will be lucky to do Mach 1.5. Yes, the F-35A can't go any faster even without weapons but it's as fast as the fastest Gen 4. Only the F-22 is faster. If you want to go faster than a F-35A, you are going to have to jettison your weapons and become a fleeing target. In the end, the F-35A ends up being one of the fastest fighters made in combat trim. Now the bad news, if you try and fight it out with the F-35A and try to do it without your external fuel tanks, you are going to go bingo long before the F-35A does without external fuel tanks.

If you keep your external fuel tanks, your G rating will be less than 9 Gees with less than 7 gs sustainable. Meanwhile, the F-35A will be able to do 9+ g initially with at least a 7.5 sustainable turn rate. You are going to have to drop those fuel tanks and only have a few precious minutes of afterburner power on tap before you have to drop your load and run for it.

The deciding factor of ANY Fighter really isn't the AC itself, it's the Pilot. If you exceed those G factors, you can turn your pilot into jelly pretty quick. Not jelly but above 9.5 Gees he will be going into a red out condition. Above a 10 g and he is going into a blackout condition (depending on the pilots conditioning). If you try and do more than a sustained 7.5, the Pilot is going to tire quickly and not be able to control the Aircraft. The F-35A reaches those pilot limits without exceeding them. And he does it with his full fuel load and weapons load. Except for the F-22, all the others have to back off those limits not due to the pilots capability but due to the air frame capability.

It's all about Physics.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Too bad f35 carries what 1/4 of the missles and less of the bombs...….and short legged as hell

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Too bad f35 carries what 1/4 of the missles and less of the bombs...….and short legged as hell

Range without external fuel with full load 1379 miles
F-16 without external fuel with limited load 1000 miles
F-18 without external fuel with limited load 800 miles
SU-30 without external Fuel with limited load 1200 miles
You keep using clean range (no missiles on board against the F-35A that has the same range both loaded and clean) Of course, clean, the Gen 4 fighters will have more range but they can't fight with that long range or will have to carry external fuel tanks to get a longer range. Even with 3 external fuel tanks and a missile load, the F-16 will barely be able to reach mach 1. Yes, it will be able to get about 1800 miles like that but until it drops those tanks, it's a sitting duck and shows up on radar like a beacon in the night. Same goes for the other Gen 4 fighters. The ONLY two Gen 4 fighters that will fair better will be the F-15 and the SU-35. The original specs have changed since the engines have been upgraded on the F-35.

The F-16, F-18, Mig-29 all carry 6 AA missiles. The F-35A carries 4. But in the end, there will be thousands of the F-35As to contend with making it the most numerous fighter in the world. If you have 4 and the other guy has 6 but you have 4 times as many in the air, it doesn't really matter to you that much. Your missiles outnumber his by at least 5 times. The USAF, alone, has hundreds already and will have thousands by 2025. USAF gets not only quality but quantity as well.

 

[DrainBamage]

sticking wit that moronic take eh....doesn't make any sense to sink that much money into old airframes....take an entire rebuild......

Jesus Christ you're naive, F-15Es are still rolling off the production line and they are always making proposals for new versions F-15SE, F-15X, etc.

Slow and low still equals dead....but hey its invisible righiiigghttt…..keep believing the pr til combat shows otherwise. Its a niche plane just like F-117 was,,,,,,some are nice...too many and you've degraded your defense

We all know you turn tail and run from the thread whenever this is brought up, but let's go through the motions of exposing how shallow MoronOnTheStreet's understanding of air combat is.

1. You are comparing the specs on an F-35 with combat load to other aircraft flying clean, which is stupid. F-35 clean flies at mach 1.6, and an F-35 with with air-to-air combat load also flies at mach 1.6 because it has no kinematic penalty. An F-35 in combat configuration can top out much faster than an F-16 or F-18 in a combat configuration since they will have drop tanks and external missiles, and is likely as fast as an SU-35 carrying six big Russian missiles.

2. There is a lot of data available on air to air kills in the modern era, and the overwhelming majority have happened at transonic speeds and mid altitude. Reason = fighter don't go dashing around at full afterburner or at altitudes where they have a turn radius the size of Texas. If two planes engage they will very likey being flying at about 600 mph and 35k feet. Only in MoronOnTheSteet's pea brain does air combat consist of aircraft flying at mach 2 over 70k feet, reality is quite different.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

sticking wit that moronic take eh....doesn't make any sense to sink that much money into old airframes....take an entire rebuild......

Jesus Christ you're naive, F-15Es are still rolling off the production line and they are always making proposals for new versions F-15SE, F-15X, etc.

Slow and low still equals dead....but hey its invisible righiiigghttt…..keep believing the pr til combat shows otherwise. Its a niche plane just like F-117 was,,,,,,some are nice...too many and you've degraded your defense

We all know you turn tail and run from the thread whenever this is brought up, but let's go through the motions of exposing how shallow MoronOnTheStreet's understanding of air combat is.

1. You are comparing the specs on an F-35 with combat load to other aircraft flying clean, which is stupid. F-35 clean flies at mach 1.6, and an F-35 with with air-to-air combat load also flies at mach 1.6 because it has no kinematic penalty. An F-35 in combat configuration can top out much faster than an F-16 or F-18 in a combat configuration since they will have drop tanks and external missiles, and is likely as fast as an SU-35 carrying six big Russian missiles.

2. There is a lot of data available on air to air kills in the modern era, and the overwhelming majority have happened at transonic speeds and mid altitude. Reason = fighter don't go dashing around at full afterburner or at altitudes where they have a turn radius the size of Texas. If two planes engage they will very likey being flying at about 600 mph and 35k feet. Only in MoronOnTheSteet's pea brain does air combat consist of aircraft flying at mach 2 over 70k feet, reality is quite different.

Most fighter want the speeds down around 450mph where they can grab air hard to turn and burn. The F-15 forces the fight to the 600mph where it has the advantage. If you want to fight him, you will have to fight his fight. If you don't want to cooperate, he just hits the burners and leaves and there is nothing you can do about it. One second he is there and the next he's gone 10 miles away and the closure starts all over again. He's already dropped his tanks so his speed is going to be well over Mach 2, probably over mach 2.4 still carrying 4 missiles. The F-15 is the third fastest air breathing piloted aircraft in the world, third only to the Mig-25 and the Mig-31.

The F-35A will also want to fight at 600mph but he will start the fight before closure. In fact, you may not even be aware of him until his door comes open to launch if even then. And then, that will be only for about a second. I don't know about you but that would make me extremely nervous in an opposing fighter. And then to dog fight him, having to drop my drop tanks which means I may not have enough fuel to get home even if I do win the the engagement.

 

[DrainBamage]

Too bad f35 carries what 1/4 of the missles and less of the bombs...….and short legged as hell

F-35 currently carries 4 AAMs internally, and will carry 6 AAMs internally in the block 4 update. Can you identify which fighter carries 24 AAMs? Take a look at pictures of Flankers flying in Syria, they carry 4-6 AAMs.

Are you lying to yourself, attempting to lie to us, or don't know basic arithmetic?

 

[DrainBamage]

Japan, which has already gotten their hands on F-35s, is doubling down again. They've decided to also buy F-35Bs for their helicopter carriers, in addition to the A models they are already buying for the Japan Air Defense Force.

Japan Set to Procure F-35B STOVL Aircraft for JMSDF Izumo-class 'helicopter destroyer'

The Japanese government has decided to procure the F35B short take-off and vertical-landing (STOVL) stealth fighter aircraft as part of the new defense plan to be outlined next month. This information was reported by Japanese media Nippon News Network (NNN). The carrier-borne aircraft would be procured to be deployed from the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force(JMSDF) two Izumo-class helicopter destroyers, JS Izumo and JS Kaga. The two vessels, the largest in the JMSDF fleet with a displacement of 27,000 tons (full load) and a length of 248 meters would be modified in order to accommodate the aircraft.

Could have sworn MoronOnTheStreet told us this was failing program and once people got their hands on the plane they'd realize what a lemon they have.

 

[DrainBamage]

Tokyo looks to American and indigenous alternatives as a result of the joint strike fighter’s shortcomings.
Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan

why do you think there is such a rush for high end fighters by US, Japan and others lately.....methinks the truth is ugly in regard to the slowboat you try so hard to sell

As usual just about everything you say in this thread turns out to be false, nothing more than a spin your own imagination put on it.

Japan to order 100 more F-35 fighters from US
Nov 27 TOKYO -- Japan is preparing to order another 100 F-35 stealth fighter jets from the U.S. to replace some of its aging F-15s, according to sources. The plan can be considered a response to China's military buildup, as well as a nod to U.S. President Donald Trump's call for Tokyo to buy more American defense equipment. Japan already intended to procure 42 of the new fighters. A single F-35 costs more than 10 billion yen ($88.1 million), meaning the additional order would exceed 1 trillion yen. Japan's government plans to approve the purchase when it adopts new National Defense Program Guidelines at a cabinet meeting in mid-December. It will also include the F-35 order in its medium-term defense program, which covers fiscal 2019 to fiscal 2023. The government wants to obtain 42 F-35s as successors to its F-4s by fiscal 2024. The 42 fighters Japan originally planned to buy are all F-35As, a conventional takeoff and landing variant. The additional 100 planes would include both the F-35A and F-35B, which is capable of short takeoffs and vertical landings.

Japan knows as well as anyone how an F-35 performs because they deployed their first one almost a year ago, and they're about to order 100 more. You are made to look the fool yet again.

 

[Karl Rand]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

Maybe we’ll never know until they unleash them against the Russians over Ukraine.
That is if the love affair between Putin and Trump allows.
US’s priciest F-35 stealth fighter crashes

 

[DrainBamage]

I don't subscribe to the theory that you'll never know how good something is until it's used in combat.

Take F-22, for example. It's universally considered the best air superiority fighter on the planet and has held that distinction since it first took to the skies, yet it has zero air combat experience. However we know how it flies, we can test it's stealth against all kinds of sensors, we can see how it performs in exercises against other aircraft, I don't think anyone thinks F-22 isn't a known factor in terms of combat capabilities.

 

[Karl Rand]

I don't subscribe to the theory that you'll never know how good something is until it's used in combat.

Take F-22, for example. It's universally considered the best air superiority fighter on the planet and has held that distinction since it first took to the skies, yet it has zero air combat experience. However we know how it flies, we can test it's stealth against all kinds of sensors, we can see how it performs in exercises against other aircraft, I don't think anyone thinks F-22 isn't a known factor in terms of combat capabilities.

I’m not usually one for conspiracy theories but, putting aside for now the obvious need for the US to market this aircraft to other nations to even begin to cover development costs, it could be a case of deliberatly leaked negative reports to slow the enemies ( Russia & China?) attempts to develop a similar weapon. Australian pilots who’ve flown several versions of the thing are very, very secretive about their opinions and one wonders why given we keep upping the number ordered at insane prices.

 

[Karl Rand]

I don't subscribe to the theory that you'll never know how good something is until it's used in combat.

It’s not so much knowing how good something is in itself its knowing how it competes with the enemies technology and who dominates.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

Maybe we’ll never know until they unleash them against the Russians over Ukraine.
That is if the love affair between Putin and Trump allows.
US’s priciest F-35 stealth fighter crashes

The cause of the crash was a faulty fuel tube. That has been corrected and all F-35s (all versions) are back flying. The A and the B are back to being full operational. With over 100K flying hours, having 1 loss is actually a great feat for a new weapon system.

 

[DrainBamage]

I’m not usually one for conspiracy theories but, putting aside for now the obvious need for the US to market this aircraft to other nations to even begin to cover development costs

They had partner nations sharing the development costs and plenty of countries that had already committed to the plane to the point where going in another direction would hamstring their defense capabilities. See Canada, they are fudging around for political reasons so are stuck buying used F-18s from Australia while still quietly paying their part of the development costs every year. Japan is about to triple their original order, Israel has taken the option for their full 75, Italy has slowed down their purchase pace but committed to same number, etc. the only marketing at this point is to pad Lockheed Martin profits by selling to Fins, Germans, etc. that weren't originally signed up.

Australian pilots who’ve flown several versions of the thing are very, very secretive about their opinions and one wonders why given we keep upping the number ordered at insane prices.

What insane prices? Info on last LRIP is here: F-35 LRIP 11 Signed: $89M For An F-35A, Including Engine — But SC Crash Casts Shadow

The last batch of F-35As now cost 89 million, and are projected to be a lot closer to 85 million next year and close to 80 million in 2020. A Eurofighter costs more than that, hell a new Superbug runs you over 70 million and it's a far less capable 4th gen aircraft.

 

[DrainBamage]

Looks like Japan has settled on 105 more F-35s, upping their total from 42 to 107 and becoming passing UK to become second only to USA in planned F-35 numbers. They already have ten A models.

Japan Heeds Trump’s Call With American-Made Defense Spending Spree
The cabinet of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on Tuesday approved an increase of Japan’s existing order for 42 F-35s to 147 of the aircraft as part of new defense plans that include the development of Tokyo’s first post-World War II aircraft carriers. Around 40 of the jets will be the F-35B version, which can take off and land vertically and will be used on two flat-top destroyers that will be refitted to carry aircraft.

 

[DrainBamage]

F-35 stealth jet 'will not be able to fire its guns until 2019'.

Well it's finally 2019, and of course we can now look back at Manonthestreet's steady stream of bullshit. F-35 was indeed firing it's get well before 2019 with the Block 3F release.