Freedom of Speech: Je Suis Charlie Hebdo!!!!

[Statistikhengst]

The Muslim faith is bullshit. There is no Mohammed. There is no Allah. I piss on images of Mohammed. That so many people follow such idiocy is bad news for humanity. That there are an enormous number of human beings in this 21st century who believe that you ought to be killed for something you say or draw is pure insanity. I think the entire fucking thing ought to be scrapped.

You are absolutely right on target.

There are 109 Sure - or Surahs- (Verses) in the Kuran that call for the killing of non-believers and also the killing of believers who become apostate. Many of the Surahs are very graphic about which part of the body is to be cut off.

109.

In contrast to some of the very vicious verses you find in the Tanakh (Old Testament), these verses are all open-ended, meaning, there is no historical or time-context attached to them.

109.


And that's just the Kuran.

In the volumes of the Hadith, speaking of murdering infidels and non-innocents is referred to way more than 100 times.


No, not every muslim is responsible for what terrorists do, but only a blind man cannot see that the overwhelming majority of such carnage over many years time now has been carried out by muslims who claim that they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran commands of them.

So, it is only fitting to ask "moderate" muslims to condemn this.

Since I'm not christian or muslim or jewish, I think that I can see things in a different way from how christians, muslims and jewish people see their sacred books.

The bible includes several passages calling for the death of people who don't believe in the god of the bible:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


Anyone who is a member of those three religions can use those passages from their sacred books as an excuse to kill. They just have to be totally crazy to do it.

I don't believe that it's faith that causes this. It's hate that has caused some to become crazy. I personally believe that hate kills the soul of the person who hates. If a person hates for a long time their soul either dies or is reduced to near death. All that remains is a very angry shell that gets it's pleasure from inflicting as much hate and pain on others as it possibly can.

I have spoken to this point many times in USMB, also noted that Judaism in it's infancy was a very barbaric religion. Judaism has grown and changed since then. Islam? Nope.

 

[Dana7360]

Charlie Hebdo covers Religious satire cartoons translated and explained.

Thank you! You know I never had to opportunity to see anything they wrote about in their magazine OR the cartoons because there wasn't a media source in the USA that was willing to print them - that I ever knew about anyhow! Amazing, isn't it? We have freedom of speech and do not use it? And the French do?! What is wrong with that picture?

Perhaps we need to get you your own Magazine, Biker!

Thanks for the vote of confidence! And........actually.............MSNBC has been showing various covers with translations on many of their programs since last night. Saw quite a few of them on All In with Chris Hayes and on Rachel Maddow.

I will have to see if I get that channel, Biker. I am a very limited cable network with Dish. I think it costs like ten dollars. lol. I think my only news source is Steve Malzberg and one other one. I like Steve Malzberg though. He's good. I will need the translations as I cannot read French. (or any other language actually! - only English)

But you're not limited to just that dish.

There's the internet. You can watch the Chris Hayes Show on line. Here's the link to his website. You can find any recent episode. Yesterday's should be there.

All In with Chris Hayes on msnbc

Actually I never thought of it - but you are right! Thanks, Dana!

Anytime. I've had on line services since the 1980s. When the internet was just a dirt road when only government, educators and computer geeks used it.

I fell in love with and married one of those computer geeks. LOL.

Just about all TV programs are on the internet now. You can go to each network website and find all their programming right there in video. You can go to Hulu and either use their free service or sign up for Hulu Plus which is just like Netflix. You pay a small monthly fee for it. We have Netflix so I don't use Hulu Plus. I've been watching the PBS Finding Your Roots on line. Which I find very fascinating. I've learned a lot about world and American history that's not in books. Like there was a woman slave in 1776 who heard Thomas Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence and took it upon herself to sue her master for her freedom. And she won! She became a free woman and spent the rest of her life working for the man who took her case and represented her in court. She's buried in that family cemetery. She's the only African American buried in that cemetery.

 

[Dana7360]

I don't see this as a free speech issue. The government did not censor the journalists. Some fucktards did by killing them.

The government isn't the only entity that can violate a person's free speech. Nor is it only the government that is prohibited from not recognizing free speech.

Those crazy people violated the cartoonist's right to free speech by murdering the cartoonist and those who published it.

They are further violating the right to free speech by terrorizing people into silence or censoring themselves.

If you're protesting in front of a business or building and someone came up to you, took your sign and prevented you from protesting but they aren't the government, they are still violating your right to free speech. You could take them to court with a law suit and you would win.

That's basically what happened in Paris. Only the crazy person took it to the point of murder. Now some media outlets will be censoring themselves because those crazy people don't believe in free speech or a free press.

There's just a limited media outlets who published those cartoons after the murders. If those media outlets weren't terrorized into silence, I'm sure they would have published them.

I don't know about France, but in the USA the only body that can be charged with infringing on free speech is the government.

What these assholes are guilty of is murder and terrorism, no matter what reason they dreamt up to excuse it.

I agree. If they had not been killed I would have wanted them to have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of French law.

I think we're talking about two different things. Yes if the government does it it's a crime and can be prosecuted in criminal court. If it's not the government it's still a crime but only a civil crime. You can take someone to civil court and sue them for infringing on your freedom of speech. If the person actually did infringe on the right to freedom of speech they will be found guilty and have to pay money but not go to jail.

 

[Dana7360]

The Muslim faith is bullshit. There is no Mohammed. There is no Allah. I piss on images of Mohammed. That so many people follow such idiocy is bad news for humanity. That there are an enormous number of human beings in this 21st century who believe that you ought to be killed for something you say or draw is pure insanity. I think the entire fucking thing ought to be scrapped.

You are absolutely right on target.

There are 109 Sure - or Surahs- (Verses) in the Kuran that call for the killing of non-believers and also the killing of believers who become apostate. Many of the Surahs are very graphic about which part of the body is to be cut off.

109.

In contrast to some of the very vicious verses you find in the Tanakh (Old Testament), these verses are all open-ended, meaning, there is no historical or time-context attached to them.

109.


And that's just the Kuran.

In the volumes of the Hadith, speaking of murdering infidels and non-innocents is referred to way more than 100 times.


No, not every muslim is responsible for what terrorists do, but only a blind man cannot see that the overwhelming majority of such carnage over many years time now has been carried out by muslims who claim that they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran commands of them.

So, it is only fitting to ask "moderate" muslims to condemn this.

Since I'm not christian or muslim or jewish, I think that I can see things in a different way from how christians, muslims and jewish people see their sacred books.

The bible includes several passages calling for the death of people who don't believe in the god of the bible:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


Anyone who is a member of those three religions can use those passages from their sacred books as an excuse to kill. They just have to be totally crazy to do it.

I don't believe that it's faith that causes this. It's hate that has caused some to become crazy. I personally believe that hate kills the soul of the person who hates. If a person hates for a long time their soul either dies or is reduced to near death. All that remains is a very angry shell that gets it's pleasure from inflicting as much hate and pain on others as it possibly can.

I have spoken to this point many times in USMB, also noted that Judaism in it's infancy was a very barbaric religion. Judaism has grown and changed since then. Islam? Nope.

You missed my point.

Which is those sacred books have the same things in them. However it takes a crazy person to actually commit those acts.

It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, jewish or christian. What matters is their hate and the fact that they've become crazy from hate.

It's not a religious thing. It's a hate and crazy thing.

Those crazy people are just using religion as an excuse for their actions.

 

[Ravi]

I don't see this as a free speech issue. The government did not censor the journalists. Some fucktards did by killing them.

The government isn't the only entity that can violate a person's free speech. Nor is it only the government that is prohibited from not recognizing free speech.

Those crazy people violated the cartoonist's right to free speech by murdering the cartoonist and those who published it.

They are further violating the right to free speech by terrorizing people into silence or censoring themselves.

If you're protesting in front of a business or building and someone came up to you, took your sign and prevented you from protesting but they aren't the government, they are still violating your right to free speech. You could take them to court with a law suit and you would win.

That's basically what happened in Paris. Only the crazy person took it to the point of murder. Now some media outlets will be censoring themselves because those crazy people don't believe in free speech or a free press.

There's just a limited media outlets who published those cartoons after the murders. If those media outlets weren't terrorized into silence, I'm sure they would have published them.

I don't know about France, but in the USA the only body that can be charged with infringing on free speech is the government.

What these assholes are guilty of is murder and terrorism, no matter what reason they dreamt up to excuse it.

I agree. If they had not been killed I would have wanted them to have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of French law.

I think we're talking about two different things. Yes if the government does it it's a crime and can be prosecuted in criminal court. If it's not the government it's still a crime but only a civil crime. You can take someone to civil court and sue them for infringing on your freedom of speech. If the person actually did infringe on the right to freedom of speech they will be found guilty and have to pay money but not go to jail.

I don't think you are correct. But please post an example.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You missed my point.

Which is those sacred books have the same things in them. However it takes a crazy person to actually commit those acts.

It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, jewish or christian. What matters is their hate and the fact that they've become crazy from hate.

It's not a religious thing. It's a hate and crazy thing.

Those crazy people are just using religion as an excuse for their actions.

Whatever "point" you are trying to make is invalid because of the dishonest nature of your sophistry.

When Muslims kill because their religion was mocked, they do so because Mohammad killed for the exact, same reason. In order for your sophomoric apologia to have any merit, you would need to provide evidence of all those Christians or Jews who actually do kill for a similar reason.

You have simply predetermined that you need to defend Islam, and so whip up some fiction that there is no difference between it or the other Abrahamic religions.

 

[Dana7360]

I don't see this as a free speech issue. The government did not censor the journalists. Some fucktards did by killing them.

The government isn't the only entity that can violate a person's free speech. Nor is it only the government that is prohibited from not recognizing free speech.

Those crazy people violated the cartoonist's right to free speech by murdering the cartoonist and those who published it.

They are further violating the right to free speech by terrorizing people into silence or censoring themselves.

If you're protesting in front of a business or building and someone came up to you, took your sign and prevented you from protesting but they aren't the government, they are still violating your right to free speech. You could take them to court with a law suit and you would win.

That's basically what happened in Paris. Only the crazy person took it to the point of murder. Now some media outlets will be censoring themselves because those crazy people don't believe in free speech or a free press.

There's just a limited media outlets who published those cartoons after the murders. If those media outlets weren't terrorized into silence, I'm sure they would have published them.

I don't know about France, but in the USA the only body that can be charged with infringing on free speech is the government.

What these assholes are guilty of is murder and terrorism, no matter what reason they dreamt up to excuse it.

I agree. If they had not been killed I would have wanted them to have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of French law.

I think we're talking about two different things. Yes if the government does it it's a crime and can be prosecuted in criminal court. If it's not the government it's still a crime but only a civil crime. You can take someone to civil court and sue them for infringing on your freedom of speech. If the person actually did infringe on the right to freedom of speech they will be found guilty and have to pay money but not go to jail.

I don't think you are correct. But please post an example.

You may be right. All the articles I've found talks about government not private citizens.

However, I'm a member of the US press. My belief in freedom of speech and of the press includes private citizens. I don't believe that a private citizen has the right to deny anyone the freedom of speech or freedom of the press. If a person stays within our laws for freedom of speech I support their right.

I thought that a person could bring a civil case of violation of freedom of the press. I might be wrong about that.

 

[Ravi]

I don't see this as a free speech issue. The government did not censor the journalists. Some fucktards did by killing them.

The government isn't the only entity that can violate a person's free speech. Nor is it only the government that is prohibited from not recognizing free speech.

Those crazy people violated the cartoonist's right to free speech by murdering the cartoonist and those who published it.

They are further violating the right to free speech by terrorizing people into silence or censoring themselves.

If you're protesting in front of a business or building and someone came up to you, took your sign and prevented you from protesting but they aren't the government, they are still violating your right to free speech. You could take them to court with a law suit and you would win.

That's basically what happened in Paris. Only the crazy person took it to the point of murder. Now some media outlets will be censoring themselves because those crazy people don't believe in free speech or a free press.

There's just a limited media outlets who published those cartoons after the murders. If those media outlets weren't terrorized into silence, I'm sure they would have published them.

I don't know about France, but in the USA the only body that can be charged with infringing on free speech is the government.

What these assholes are guilty of is murder and terrorism, no matter what reason they dreamt up to excuse it.

I agree. If they had not been killed I would have wanted them to have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of French law.

I think we're talking about two different things. Yes if the government does it it's a crime and can be prosecuted in criminal court. If it's not the government it's still a crime but only a civil crime. You can take someone to civil court and sue them for infringing on your freedom of speech. If the person actually did infringe on the right to freedom of speech they will be found guilty and have to pay money but not go to jail.

I don't think you are correct. But please post an example.

You may be right. All the articles I've found talks about government not private citizens.

However, I'm a member of the US press. My belief in freedom of speech and of the press includes private citizens. I don't believe that a private citizen has the right to deny anyone the freedom of speech or freedom of the press. If a person stays within our laws for freedom of speech I support their right.

I thought that a person could bring a civil case of violation of freedom of the press. I might be wrong about that.

I'd say it depends on how you silence someone. Telling them to shut up or boycotting, shunning, etc., is fine. Killing them isn't....but then that is murder and not a free speech issue.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The Muslim faith is bullshit. There is no Mohammed. There is no Allah. I piss on images of Mohammed. That so many people follow such idiocy is bad news for humanity. That there are an enormous number of human beings in this 21st century who believe that you ought to be killed for something you say or draw is pure insanity. I think the entire fucking thing ought to be scrapped.

You are absolutely right on target.

There are 109 Sure - or Surahs- (Verses) in the Kuran that call for the killing of non-believers and also the killing of believers who become apostate. Many of the Surahs are very graphic about which part of the body is to be cut off.

109.

In contrast to some of the very vicious verses you find in the Tanakh (Old Testament), these verses are all open-ended, meaning, there is no historical or time-context attached to them.

109.


And that's just the Kuran.

In the volumes of the Hadith, speaking of murdering infidels and non-innocents is referred to way more than 100 times.


No, not every muslim is responsible for what terrorists do, but only a blind man cannot see that the overwhelming majority of such carnage over many years time now has been carried out by muslims who claim that they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran commands of them.

So, it is only fitting to ask "moderate" muslims to condemn this.

Since I'm not christian or muslim or jewish, I think that I can see things in a different way from how christians, muslims and jewish people see their sacred books.

The bible includes several passages calling for the death of people who don't believe in the god of the bible:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


Anyone who is a member of those three religions can use those passages from their sacred books as an excuse to kill. They just have to be totally crazy to do it.

I don't believe that it's faith that causes this. It's hate that has caused some to become crazy. I personally believe that hate kills the soul of the person who hates. If a person hates for a long time their soul either dies or is reduced to near death. All that remains is a very angry shell that gets it's pleasure from inflicting as much hate and pain on others as it possibly can.

I have spoken to this point many times in USMB, also noted that Judaism in it's infancy was a very barbaric religion. Judaism has grown and changed since then. Islam? Nope.

You are correct. Why not?

 

[Lipush]

Why why not

 

[Dana7360]

You missed my point.

Which is those sacred books have the same things in them. However it takes a crazy person to actually commit those acts.

It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, jewish or christian. What matters is their hate and the fact that they've become crazy from hate.

It's not a religious thing. It's a hate and crazy thing.

Those crazy people are just using religion as an excuse for their actions.

Whatever "point" you are trying to make is invalid because of the dishonest nature of your sophistry.

When Muslims kill because their religion was mocked, they do so because Mohammad killed for the exact, same reason. In order for your sophomoric apologia to have any merit, you would need to provide evidence of all those Christians or Jews who actually do kill for a similar reason.

You have simply predetermined that you need to defend Islam, and so whip up some fiction that there is no difference between it or the other Abrahamic religions.

Do you know anything about the genocide done to the christian Armenians by the muslims of the ottoman empire?

If not do some research.

I'm half Armenian. Which means most of one side of my family died in that genocide. In my father's father's family they sent 3 boys to America. Only those three boys survived the genocide. In my father's mother's family they couldn't get anyone out in time. My grandmother told me about when the muslims came to their village. All the men in her family were taken away. The next time she saw her father and brothers was when they were lined up against a wall and shot. She told me what it was like to have her dad's brains splattered all over her. Then the muslims made them walk through the desert. My grandmother was one of 12 in her family when they started. There was 6 left by the end of the march. They got my grandmother out soon after that. She was smuggled to America with an old uncle from another village with the plans of her marrying him. The boat docked in Spain. She got off and ran away. She was found and convinced to get back on the boat. When she got to America, Massachusetts to be exact, she ran away again. She joined the Armenian community there and was introduced to my grandfather because both of them came from what's now known as Egypt and spoke the same language. As a result of what muslims did my father was the only person to carry on our family name. My mother had to have a son before she had her tubes tied. My brother never had kids. One of my sisters had a son. He changed his name from his father's name to our name so that the name can carry on.

Now you tell me I'm an apologist for muslims.

I am an honest person and can see that it takes a crazy person filled with hate to murder. That those crazy people use their faith as an excuse for murder.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Why why not

Great one! You are so cool.

 

[Statistikhengst]

 

[Statistikhengst]

The Muslim faith is bullshit. There is no Mohammed. There is no Allah. I piss on images of Mohammed. That so many people follow such idiocy is bad news for humanity. That there are an enormous number of human beings in this 21st century who believe that you ought to be killed for something you say or draw is pure insanity. I think the entire fucking thing ought to be scrapped.

You are absolutely right on target.

There are 109 Sure - or Surahs- (Verses) in the Kuran that call for the killing of non-believers and also the killing of believers who become apostate. Many of the Surahs are very graphic about which part of the body is to be cut off.

109.

In contrast to some of the very vicious verses you find in the Tanakh (Old Testament), these verses are all open-ended, meaning, there is no historical or time-context attached to them.

109.


And that's just the Kuran.

In the volumes of the Hadith, speaking of murdering infidels and non-innocents is referred to way more than 100 times.


No, not every muslim is responsible for what terrorists do, but only a blind man cannot see that the overwhelming majority of such carnage over many years time now has been carried out by muslims who claim that they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran commands of them.

So, it is only fitting to ask "moderate" muslims to condemn this.

Since I'm not christian or muslim or jewish, I think that I can see things in a different way from how christians, muslims and jewish people see their sacred books.

The bible includes several passages calling for the death of people who don't believe in the god of the bible:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


Anyone who is a member of those three religions can use those passages from their sacred books as an excuse to kill. They just have to be totally crazy to do it.

I don't believe that it's faith that causes this. It's hate that has caused some to become crazy. I personally believe that hate kills the soul of the person who hates. If a person hates for a long time their soul either dies or is reduced to near death. All that remains is a very angry shell that gets it's pleasure from inflicting as much hate and pain on others as it possibly can.

I have spoken to this point many times in USMB, also noted that Judaism in it's infancy was a very barbaric religion. Judaism has grown and changed since then. Islam? Nope.

You missed my point.

Which is those sacred books have the same things in them. However it takes a crazy person to actually commit those acts.

It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, jewish or christian. What matters is their hate and the fact that they've become crazy from hate.

It's not a religious thing. It's a hate and crazy thing.

Those crazy people are just using religion as an excuse for their actions.

I see your point, to a point, but not entirely. And I thank you for your thoughtful writings.

However, if that were the case, why do we have almost 25,000 incidents of islamic terror since 911 -documented, proven, with film, audio, reports, eyeswitnesses, yadayadayada, but not 25,000 incidents of Christian terror or 25,000 incidents of Jewish terror?

You see, not all sacred books have the same thing in them, and definitely not in the same quantity, or you could even say, with the same severity. I have already indicated that Judaism went through a verifiable period of reform, and so has Christianity. Islam has not and that is a HUGE problem, for in the eyes of those extremist, they are not extreme at all. In their eyes, they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran dictates. To them, it is not crazy at all.

And again, I point out that today, in the middle of not just one, but two hostage seiges in France, not one single solitary Imam (and they do possess a certain amount of authority), not one single leader of an Islamic land, not one single Islamic organization like CAIR, not one single Muslim who has high name recognition, went public to tell the terrorists that they should give it up and turn themselves in. Not even one. That is just plain old pathetic. Yes, some Muslims, to their great credit, took to social media to decry what happened, and some organizations distanced themselves from the acts themselves, but not a single one took the most logical step of all: to tell the terrorists to turn themselves in and avoid more bloodshed. They wanted to die as heros. Had they known that others who share their faith do not see them as heros (and here I am going way out on a limb to make that assumption, to whit, to whit) and they had seen what others are saying (they had cellphones, they know how to use social media), maybe today would have worked out differently.

Instead, after 12 people and one Muslim cop were murdered on Wednesday, another cop (one who was in the vicinity of a Jewish elementary school) was murdered yesterday and 4 french citizens, who happen to be french jews, were murdered this afternoon (my time).

Sure, it's a hate thing, but the proportions are all wrong. Either that, or you are trying to tell me that disproportionately many more muslims are crazy than Christians or Jews. Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[Statistikhengst]

Why why not

Great one! You are so cool.

The Muslim faith is bullshit. There is no Mohammed. There is no Allah. I piss on images of Mohammed. That so many people follow such idiocy is bad news for humanity. That there are an enormous number of human beings in this 21st century who believe that you ought to be killed for something you say or draw is pure insanity. I think the entire fucking thing ought to be scrapped.

You are absolutely right on target.

There are 109 Sure - or Surahs- (Verses) in the Kuran that call for the killing of non-believers and also the killing of believers who become apostate. Many of the Surahs are very graphic about which part of the body is to be cut off.

109.

In contrast to some of the very vicious verses you find in the Tanakh (Old Testament), these verses are all open-ended, meaning, there is no historical or time-context attached to them.

109.


And that's just the Kuran.

In the volumes of the Hadith, speaking of murdering infidels and non-innocents is referred to way more than 100 times.


No, not every muslim is responsible for what terrorists do, but only a blind man cannot see that the overwhelming majority of such carnage over many years time now has been carried out by muslims who claim that they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran commands of them.

So, it is only fitting to ask "moderate" muslims to condemn this.

Since I'm not christian or muslim or jewish, I think that I can see things in a different way from how christians, muslims and jewish people see their sacred books.

The bible includes several passages calling for the death of people who don't believe in the god of the bible:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


Anyone who is a member of those three religions can use those passages from their sacred books as an excuse to kill. They just have to be totally crazy to do it.

I don't believe that it's faith that causes this. It's hate that has caused some to become crazy. I personally believe that hate kills the soul of the person who hates. If a person hates for a long time their soul either dies or is reduced to near death. All that remains is a very angry shell that gets it's pleasure from inflicting as much hate and pain on others as it possibly can.

I have spoken to this point many times in USMB, also noted that Judaism in it's infancy was a very barbaric religion. Judaism has grown and changed since then. Islam? Nope.

You are correct. Why not?

Hi, LoneLaugher

One current of thought is that since Islam does not have a central human figure, a pope of sorts, if you will, to speak for Islam, it's hard to Muslims to come to group decisions. I don't buy into that very much. There are plenty of Imams who also have contact with each other and if the will was strong enough to reform Islam, they would surely find a way.

Another current of thought is that there are already four very discernable wings of Islam and that they will never agree with each other on any kind of reform. There may be some validity to this, as it is practically impossible to get a Sunni and a Shia to sit together at the same table. And there there are the Salafisten and the Wahabis as well.

Yet another current of thought is that nothing catastrophic enough has happened to Islam yet to force it to reform. First 1900 years after we Jews were spread to the four winds did reform start to come. After the pest, which eliminated more than 40% of Europe but did not touch the Middle East, Christianity first split into two large wings and later, reform came.

Judaism is 5775 years old
Christianity just a little less than 2,000 years old.
Islam is roughly 1,400 years old.

It took us Jews, as I said, about 1,900 years in the diaspora to finally reform and really look inward.
For Chistianity, it took about 1,700 years.
You could think, using those values, that within 300 years, Islam would need to reform itself, only I am not so sure we have that much time. The planet is far more populated than it was just 100 years ago.

I hope these points help some.

 

[Dana7360]

The Muslim faith is bullshit. There is no Mohammed. There is no Allah. I piss on images of Mohammed. That so many people follow such idiocy is bad news for humanity. That there are an enormous number of human beings in this 21st century who believe that you ought to be killed for something you say or draw is pure insanity. I think the entire fucking thing ought to be scrapped.

You are absolutely right on target.

There are 109 Sure - or Surahs- (Verses) in the Kuran that call for the killing of non-believers and also the killing of believers who become apostate. Many of the Surahs are very graphic about which part of the body is to be cut off.

109.

In contrast to some of the very vicious verses you find in the Tanakh (Old Testament), these verses are all open-ended, meaning, there is no historical or time-context attached to them.

109.


And that's just the Kuran.

In the volumes of the Hadith, speaking of murdering infidels and non-innocents is referred to way more than 100 times.


No, not every muslim is responsible for what terrorists do, but only a blind man cannot see that the overwhelming majority of such carnage over many years time now has been carried out by muslims who claim that they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran commands of them.

So, it is only fitting to ask "moderate" muslims to condemn this.

Since I'm not christian or muslim or jewish, I think that I can see things in a different way from how christians, muslims and jewish people see their sacred books.

The bible includes several passages calling for the death of people who don't believe in the god of the bible:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


Anyone who is a member of those three religions can use those passages from their sacred books as an excuse to kill. They just have to be totally crazy to do it.

I don't believe that it's faith that causes this. It's hate that has caused some to become crazy. I personally believe that hate kills the soul of the person who hates. If a person hates for a long time their soul either dies or is reduced to near death. All that remains is a very angry shell that gets it's pleasure from inflicting as much hate and pain on others as it possibly can.

I have spoken to this point many times in USMB, also noted that Judaism in it's infancy was a very barbaric religion. Judaism has grown and changed since then. Islam? Nope.

You missed my point.

Which is those sacred books have the same things in them. However it takes a crazy person to actually commit those acts.

It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, jewish or christian. What matters is their hate and the fact that they've become crazy from hate.

It's not a religious thing. It's a hate and crazy thing.

Those crazy people are just using religion as an excuse for their actions.

I see your point, to a point, but not entirely. And I thank you for your thoughtful writings.

However, if that were the case, why do we have almost 25,000 incidents of islamic terror since 911 -documented, proven, with film, audio, reports, eyeswitnesses, yadayadayada, but not 25,000 incidents of Christian terror or 25,000 incidents of Jewish terror?

You see, not all sacred books have the same thing in them, and definitely not in the same quantity, or you could even say, with the same severity. I have already indicated that Judaism went through a verifiable period of reform, and so has Christianity. Islam has not and that is a HUGE problem, for in the eyes of those extremist, they are not extreme at all. In their eyes, they are doing EXACTLY what the Kuran dictates. To them, it is not crazy at all.

And again, I point out that today, in the middle of not just one, but two hostage seiges in France, not one single solitary Imam (and they do possess a certain amount of authority), not one single leader of an Islamic land, not one single Islamic organization like CAIR, not one single Muslim who has high name recognition, went public to tell the terrorists that they should give it up and turn themselves in. Not even one. That is just plain old pathetic. Yes, some Muslims, to their great credit, took to social media to decry what happened, and some organizations distanced themselves from the acts themselves, but not a single one took the most logical step of all: to tell the terrorists to turn themselves in and avoid more bloodshed. They wanted to die as heros. Had they known that others who share their faith do not see them as heros (and here I am going way out on a limb to make that assumption, to whit, to whit) and they had seen what others are saying (they had cellphones, they know how to use social media), maybe today would have worked out differently.

Instead, after 12 people and one Muslim cop were murdered on Wednesday, another cop (one who was in the vicinity of a Jewish elementary school) was murdered yesterday and 4 french citizens, who happen to be french jews, were murdered this afternoon (my time).

Sure, it's a hate thing, but the proportions are all wrong. Either that, or you are trying to tell me that disproportionately many more muslims are crazy than Christians or Jews. Is that what you are trying to say?

My opinions on why or what caused such hate can't be summed up in a sentence or two.

I believe it's from a lifetime of conditions they live in. Take the North Koreans for example. They don't have much food, not much electricity and other things we take for granted. Yet they've been taught all their lives that it's all America's fault they have to live that way. When we all know it's their leaders who are causing it.

When America's leaders lie and invade a nation illegally the people of that nation rightly aren't happy about the situation. When American bombs kill innocent people they love they have a right to be angry with America. When America tortures innocent people, people of that nation rightly get angry with America. When America supports a blockade that forces a nation of people to live with little food and necessities of life, people get angry with America.

When America supports dictators who persecute the people of that nation, people of that nation end up hating America.

In this case in Paris, I believe that muslims have the right to not see images of their prophet. They don't have the right to tell anyone else they can't create or see images of that prophet. Nor do they have the right to murder those who create those images and then publish them.

I don't know what caused those crazy people to hate and become that crazy. Only they know what motives themselves and they're dead now so we will never know.

Whether I'm right or wrong about it doesn't really matter. It's my opinion.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

blah blah blah......insult Mo these days and you're going to pay a price. Frankly I find the whole affair amusing.....sneering frog assholes ignoring the multiple warnings got themselves executed....a word to the wise....these raghead cocksuckers ain't kidding around. If you're not ready for the consequences of taunting them.....hello? DON'T TAUNT THEM!

Yeah, and since some of them are offended by restaurants serving bacon, they should stop serving it, and since some of them are offended by women driving vehicles, Euro women should stop driving, and since some of them are offended by women who show their faces, the women there should cover their faces.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If you're offended by depictions of Mohammed.............don't look at them.

If you're offended by bacon, don't eat it and don't go to places that serve it.

The trouble is that there are radicals in EVERY religion that will twist their particular holy book into saying whatever they want it to say. Certain Christian groups in this country twisted the commandment about murder into being extended to unborn children and fetuses and used that as justification to bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors. Other Christian groups have taken their interpretation of the Bible to protest gays and further extended it to say that the reason America is having such problems is because of the gays.

There are ZERO verses in the Quaran that say you cannot have a representation of Mohammed. That particular rule is contained in the Hadiths, and they use it like Christians do about not worshiping graven images or idols. It's only the strict radicals that use their interpretation of it to kill others. I saw a Muslim scholar on MSNBC last night that stated the very thing I just said.

It's not so much the religion that is the problem, it's the radicals that follow it.

And.......I can kind of understand why many Muslims want to have an Islamic state, because in their traditions and beliefs, they would like to return to a time when Islam was a powerhouse nation with lots of knowledge. But............that would mean that the current radicals would have to quit killing those that believed different from them. I mean............at one time..................the largest repository of knowledge was owned by the Muslims. It was called the Library of Alexandria.

And.............in killing those who believe and understand things differently than you do, you can't learn anything from them to expand your own knowledge.

Know what the 2nd most used word in the Quaran is after Allah? Ilm, which means knowledge.

Nope.........sorry.............the radicals are trying to co-opt Islam in pursuit of getting support for their wars.

 

[LoneLaugher]

So.....is the fucked up, senseless religion of Islam a PC protected religion?

 

[ABikerSailor]

So.....is the fucked up, senseless religion of Islam a PC protected religion?

No religion should be a "PC protected religion".

And.................I dunno if Islam is all you claim it to be. What makes Islam less "legitimate" than other religions?

And................if radicals from ANY RELIGION behave as terrorists, we shouldn't denounce the entire religion, just the radical fringes causing all the trouble.

During the time of Fred Phelps and all his lunacy, I never once said that the Westboro Baptist Church represented the views of all Christians. During his stupid protests, I denounced HIM and his church, but never all Christians.

You're doing that to Islam by saying that ISIL and Al Queda speak for all Muslims. They don't.