God... Is Time.

[Hollie]

Here's an astrological event you're probably familiar with, Eddy. It shows a bunch of science geeks sitting around a monitor watching the comet Shoemaker-Levy crash into Jupiter. They consider themselves watching it as it happened. This was how the news reported it and science journals accounted it... but what they are viewing had already happened some 23 minutes before. It was impossible for them to view the event in real time because light had to travel, signals had to be processed, physics had to happen. Even if they had been watching the event from a space ship orbiting Jupiter, light still had to travel, physics still had to happen. It wouldn't have taken 23 minutes, it would have been much quicker but it's impossible for anyone to have observed it happen in the present time.

As mortal human beings living in a physical universe, we are bound and limited by physics. For anything to "happen" takes time, thus the present time is elusive. We can only have a perception of present which arrives in our brains after it has already happened and is forever in the past. I'm not sure why you brain is not absorbing this basic physical fact... maybe your ego can't handle being mortal? Perhaps it exposes the ignorance of you believing yourself to be your own God? Whatever is the case, it seems to be causing you to get surly and rude toward me.

Gee whiz, bossy. That tends to refute your previous thread of proselytizing for your gawds who magically configured the "finely tuned universe".

 

[Boss]

All that has nothing to do with your stupid claim that faith is required to know that there was a present time when you broke your leg because you did not perceive it the instant it happened. You may still be unconscious from your fall, but that does not change the fact that at some present time in the past you fell and broke your leg. That is the physics of reality and it takes no faith to know that there was a present time when you broke your leg.

What do you mean by "know there was" a present time? How can you know something you cannot observe? Forget about broken legs and things that are 'realizations' and think in terms of physics and what is happening in a physical reality. There is no "present time in the past" there is only passing of time. Present is the word we use to define the moment of present time. Everything before that is future, everything after that is past. There is no "present time in the past" ...it's oxymoronic. We have a perception of the "present time" but because of physics, it arrives to us in the past.

Think of present time like a needle on a phonograph. It rests in the groove of the record and as the record turns the needle passes over ridges and bumps to interpret a sound. The sound is our perception and the turning record represents time passing. If the record player is stopped with the needle still in the groove, it can't interpret the ridges and bumps any longer so there is no sound produced. What is immediately beneath the needle may be very important information, but there can be no perception of it until there is time. Now... if we could slow down physics and see what happens with a record on a phonograph, we could see that the ridges and bumps immediately beneath the needle are not in sync with the sound we are hearing. Physics had to happen. The needle had to send the impulse to the stylus, it was transmitted as an electrical signal to a processor which had to convert the signal into something that could be amplified into sound. All of it took time to do and the end result was a perception of sound emanating from the record needle in the past. The needle has already moved on and a new "present" exists.

So.... Explain how we can believe in something that we cannot observe?

 

[edthecynic]

How can you know something you cannot observe?

Even a blind man can know he broke his leg.

Again the physics of a present time has nothing to do with "perception." The present time exists independent of any perception of it. That is physics. Please show the Law of physics that requires perception for t = 0.

 

[edthecynic]

So.... Explain how we can believe in something that we cannot observe?

Blind people believe there is firm ground under their feet though they have never observed it.

 

[Muslim75]

It is inappropriate and blasphemous to call God "time". God is, by the way, above any form of humanness. Any given human being is born, passes through childhood, youth, adulthood and old age. At the time he reaches old age he is a completely different human being than the one he was at age 4. God has changed him. Hence in Islam, we say that "God is the Time", not "God is Time".

With all due respect to your personal religious beliefs, I am not here to proselytize for any religious belief. The OP examines the human attribute of faith... belief in what is unobserved. We have a perception of what "present time" appears to be, that is all. We can't confirm it because we can't physically observe the moment of present time. Our perception is a byproduct of time which already passed and is no longer in the present.

We're all physical human beings, bound by the laws of physical nature. This is the limitation which keeps us from ever observing the moment of present time. We can only have faith that it exists, it cannot be observed directly, we rely only on our perception of the evidence. The same is true for God.

What God IS or what God does... that's a different topic. I've made no claims, I boast of no inside knowledge. As a devout Spiritualist, I believe in a power greater than self and connect with it regularly. That power is MY God. I have enough knowledge to understand this is essentially the basis for any incarnation of God, regardless of attached religious dogma. But for the sake of the OP argument, the definition of God is inconsequential. Faith is required to believe in God, just as faith is required to believe the present exists as we perceive it to be.

Both Christianity in Islam ascribe sacredness to time. But saying that "God is time" is great blasphemy. What should be said is "God is The time", as it is said in Islam. Traveling used to take years, now it takes hours. God has enabled it; God is The Time.

To people who believe in an Almighty God, God is a Being with a will, not a concept.

 

[Boss]

How can you know something you cannot observe?

Even a blind man can know he broke his leg.

Again the physics of a present time has nothing to do with "perception." The present time exists independent of any perception of it. That is physics. Please show the Law of physics that requires perception for t = 0.

I didn't say a present time didn't exist. If t = 0, then perception = 0.

Present time exists and we are unable to observe it. You can't even break your leg in present time. It is an action and requires time to happen. You certainly can't break your leg and realize it in the instant of present time. What part of this is flying over your head? Do you think the instant of present time stops and waits for things to happen? Where is your physical formula for that?

All we can really say is, IT APPEARS a physical reality is happening in the moment of present time. We ASSUME the results of our perception is correct. Due to the constraints of physics we are unable to observe the moment of present directly. We rely on faith.

 

[Boss]

So.... Explain how we can believe in something that we cannot observe?

Blind people believe there is firm ground under their feet though they have never observed it.

Yes, but you are now conflating "sight" with "observing" and they're not the same thing. We can observe lots of things we cannot see. The bigger point is, we cannot observe anything without time happening.

 

[Boss]

Both Christianity in Islam ascribe sacredness to time. But saying that "God is time" is great blasphemy. What should be said is "God is The time", as it is said in Islam. Traveling used to take years, now it takes hours. God has enabled it; God is The Time.

To people who believe in an Almighty God, God is a Being with a will, not a concept.

I have already said this is not a theological or religious debate. It doesn't matter to me what your God says or what your religion considers blasphemy. So you can continue to try and turn the thread into another pointless theology debate and I'll continue tell you this is not a theological argument. Sorry!

 

[edthecynic]

You can't even break your leg in present time.

Did the bone break the present moment the bone snapped or the past moment you became aware of it after you woke from your coma?
The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

 

[edthecynic]

So.... Explain how we can believe in something that we cannot observe?

Blind people believe there is firm ground under their feet though they have never observed it.

Yes, but you are now conflating "sight" with "observing" and they're not the same thing. We can observe lots of things we cannot see. The bigger point is, we cannot observe anything without time happening.

And nowhere do those observations require faith.

 

[Boss]

You can't even break your leg in present time.

Did the bone break the present moment the bone snapped or the past moment you became aware of it after you woke from your coma?
The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Well the bone can't break without time passing as it breaks. When it is in the process of breaking, an action is happening, it requires time to pass and physics to happen. What part of this don't you get? Nothing happens instantaneously without time, even the splitting of an atom takes time. And since EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS takes time, it is impossible for us to observe the moment of present time.

The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Why are you now trying to present MY argument as your counter argument? Strange!

 

[G.T.]

You can't even break your leg in present time.

Did the bone break the present moment the bone snapped or the past moment you became aware of it after you woke from your coma?
The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Well the bone can't break without time passing as it breaks. When it is in the process of breaking, an action is happening, it requires time to pass and physics to happen. What part of this don't you get? Nothing happens instantaneously without time, even the splitting of an atom takes time. And since EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS takes time, it is impossible for us to observe the moment of present time.

The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Why are you now trying to present MY argument as your counter argument? Strange!

Yet physics doesnt rely on faith to know that present time exists....because physics is not a god drama queen.

 

[Boss]

So.... Explain how we can believe in something that we cannot observe?

Blind people believe there is firm ground under their feet though they have never observed it.

Yes, but you are now conflating "sight" with "observing" and they're not the same thing. We can observe lots of things we cannot see. The bigger point is, we cannot observe anything without time happening.

And nowhere do those observations require faith.

But we cannot observe the moment of present time. We only have faith that it exists as we perceive it after the fact, in the past. We are not able to observe the present directly because of physics. Time has to happen for us to have a perception. Our faith is based solely on the perception of a reality we realize. Is this true, false, different? We don't know, can't confirm it if we can't observe it.... like God.

 

[Boss]

You can't even break your leg in present time.

Did the bone break the present moment the bone snapped or the past moment you became aware of it after you woke from your coma?
The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Well the bone can't break without time passing as it breaks. When it is in the process of breaking, an action is happening, it requires time to pass and physics to happen. What part of this don't you get? Nothing happens instantaneously without time, even the splitting of an atom takes time. And since EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS takes time, it is impossible for us to observe the moment of present time.

The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Why are you now trying to present MY argument as your counter argument? Strange!

Yet physics doesnt rely on faith to know that present time exists....because physics is not a god drama queen.

Again GT... Physics is what prevents you from observing the moment of present time. I have not said that present time doesn't exist... why do you all keep making that same error? The only way we have to know that it does exist is Faith. We have faith in our perception which appears to be reality in the present, but it can't be... physics doesn't allow it to be. Time has to pass for things to happen.

 

[edthecynic]

I have not said that present time doesn't exist... why do you all keep making that same error? The only way we have to know that it does exist is Faith. We have faith in our perception which appears to be reality in the present, but it can't be... physics doesn't allow it to be. Time has to pass for things to happen.

Is that a a statement of faith or physics?

 

[G.T.]

You can't even break your leg in present time.

Did the bone break the present moment the bone snapped or the past moment you became aware of it after you woke from your coma?
The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Well the bone can't break without time passing as it breaks. When it is in the process of breaking, an action is happening, it requires time to pass and physics to happen. What part of this don't you get? Nothing happens instantaneously without time, even the splitting of an atom takes time. And since EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS takes time, it is impossible for us to observe the moment of present time.

The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Why are you now trying to present MY argument as your counter argument? Strange!

Yet physics doesnt rely on faith to know that present time exists....because physics is not a god drama queen.

Again GT... Physics is what prevents you from observing the moment of present time. I have not said that present time doesn't exist... why do you all keep making that same error? The only way we have to know that it does exist is Faith. We have faith in our perception which appears to be reality in the present, but it can't be... physics doesn't allow it to be. Time has to pass for things to happen.

Youre circle jerking.

Its a pointless cherade bc i can then say "do you have faith in physics?"

If you do, physics shows that present exists.
If you dont, your commentary about perception is meaningless.
..



At the end of the day, there is FAR more proof in a present than evidence in a god.


The amount of faith theyd require if one even delved into your circle jerk is eons apart. Not comparable. Not even close

 

[Boss]

I have not said that present time doesn't exist... why do you all keep making that same error? The only way we have to know that it does exist is Faith. We have faith in our perception which appears to be reality in the present, but it can't be... physics doesn't allow it to be. Time has to pass for things to happen.

Is that a a statement of faith or physics?

Is there anything in physics that contradicts this?

 

[Boss]

You can't even break your leg in present time.

Did the bone break the present moment the bone snapped or the past moment you became aware of it after you woke from your coma?
The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Well the bone can't break without time passing as it breaks. When it is in the process of breaking, an action is happening, it requires time to pass and physics to happen. What part of this don't you get? Nothing happens instantaneously without time, even the splitting of an atom takes time. And since EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS takes time, it is impossible for us to observe the moment of present time.

The present time is completely independent of any and all perception according to physics.

Why are you now trying to present MY argument as your counter argument? Strange!

Yet physics doesnt rely on faith to know that present time exists....because physics is not a god drama queen.

Again GT... Physics is what prevents you from observing the moment of present time. I have not said that present time doesn't exist... why do you all keep making that same error? The only way we have to know that it does exist is Faith. We have faith in our perception which appears to be reality in the present, but it can't be... physics doesn't allow it to be. Time has to pass for things to happen.

Youre circle jerking.

Its a pointless cherade bc i can then say "do you have faith in physics?"

If you do, physics shows that present exists.
If you dont, your commentary about perception is meaningless.
..
At the end of the day, there is FAR more proof in a present than evidence in a god.

The amount of faith theyd require if one even delved into your circle jerk is eons apart. Not comparable. Not even close

The only PROOF of a present is the evidence of perception we have occurring in the past. We cannot prove that which we cannot observe... this is the science argument against God, remember?

There is no circle jerk or charade happening, I am trying to teach physics to a bunch of morons, apparently. I've tried a number of analogies, tried rephrasing things in ways you could better understand, and at this point I am thinking, if you can't comprehend that humans can't observe the present moment of time, you're just retarded or something.

You say really stupid shit, like "FAR more proof in..." What the hell does that mean? Proof is when you've PROVEN something! Do you mean Evidence? We have just as much evidence for God as physical reality. You choose to ignore the evidence and claim God can't be real because you can't observe, test or measure God. The same applies to the moment of present time. You can't observe it, you can't test it, and you can't measure it. Before you can even perceive it, the present has passed.

 

[G.T.]

No, we have no evidence for god. Zero. Because correlation does not equal causation. The reasoning being used wpuld be circulat, as always.

And youre not teaching physics to anyone when youre degreed in downs syndrome. Trust me.

 

[Boss]

No, we have no evidence for god. Zero. Because correlation does not equal causation. The reasoning being used wpuld be circulat, as always.

And youre not teaching physics to anyone when youre degreed in downs syndrome. Trust me.

Again, there is plenty of evidence for God. There is no PROOF for God. If correlation does not equal causation, how are you certain the causation of your perception of present time correlates with actuality?

Once again, because you are so slow, I will make the point... Human beings are unable to observe the moment of present time due to physics. Everything we are able to perceive depends on time happening. We have FAITH that a present does exist and our perception of it is an accurate representation. We can't prove that it is or isn't because we can't observe it to evaluate.

If you believe the present exists as we perceive it in the past, then congratulations... you are a human being practicing FAITH in your beliefs. You are proving that things CAN exist beyond our ability to observe, test or measure.