Gun deaths in perspective.

[2aguy]

No...Europe prefers gas chambers and mass graves when they kill in the millions......when they murder unarmed men, women and children.....that is the example they have to show....

Not Europe, Nazi Germany. Not Germany, Nazi Germany.

Poland...German socialists murdered 2.7 million Poles....

Nazi crimes against the Polish nation - Wikipedia

Nazi crimes against the Polish nation claimed the lives of 2.77 million ethnic Poles and 2.7 to 2.9 million Polish Jews, according to estimates of the Polish government-affiliated Institute of National Remembrance (IPN).[a]

Belgium....

The Holocaust in Belgium - Wikipedia

n total, 25,437 Jews were deported from Belgium.[29] Only 1,207 of these survived the war.[31] Amongst those deported and killed was the surrealist artist Felix Nussbaum in 1944.

Members of Belgian fascist political parties actively attempted to assist in the deportation of Jews. The VNV and Algemeene-SS Vlaanderen encouraged the deportations, while an association known as La Défense du Peuple/Volksverwering ("The People's Defence") was specially formed to bring together Belgian anti-Semites and to assist in the deportations.[32] During the early stages of the occupation, they campaigned for harsher anti-Jewish laws.[33] Both Rex and the VNV routinely published anti-Semitic articles in their party newspapers.[32]

Although the Belgian civil authorities (especially the police and security service) were officially forbidden to assist the German authorities in anything other than routine maintenance of order, several incidents occurred where individual policemen or police sections assisted in the German arrest of Jews, against orders.[34]

In Antwerp, the Belgian authorities facilitated the conscription of Jews for forced labour in France in 1941[24] and aided in the rounding up of Jews in August 1942 after the SiPo-SD threatened to imprison local officials in Fort Breendonk.[34]

France.....

The Holocaust in France - Wikipedia

The Holocaust in France refers to the persecution, deportation, and annihilation of Jews and Roma between 1940 and 1944 in occupied France and in Vichy-North Africa, during World War II. The persecution began in 1940, and culminated in deportations of Jews from France to death camps in Germany and Nazi-occupied Poland from 1942 which lasted until July 1944. Of the 340,000 Jews living in France in 1940, more than 75,000 were deported to death camps, where about 72,500 were killed.

French Vichy government [1] and the French police participated in the roundup of Jews. Although most deported Jews died, the survival rate of the Jewish population in France was up to 75% which is one of the highest survival rates in Europe.[2][3]

 

[Meane]

Its because of the way crime is recorded.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
UPDATED:18:14 EST, 2 July 2009

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 920 and South Africa 1,609.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

Read more: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Daily Mail Online

Its because of the way crime is recorded.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
UPDATED:18:14 EST, 2 July 2009

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 920 and South Africa 1,609.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

Read more: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Daily Mail Online

It's a worthless article since all these countries have a different definition for a violent crime.

The main reason the crime levels jumped is because UK is going toward zero tolerance in violence like other civilized countries.

No.....the reason for the increase in violence is decades of single mothers raising young male children without fathers, immigrants from violent 3rd world countries, and a reduction in the British police force...and an unarmed citizenry.....all the things we had driving ours, until we increased our gun ownership and our gun carrying and our violent crime rates dropped 72%...our gun murder rate dropped 49% and our gun crime rate dropped 75%


While gun crime in London and other British cities increased 10%......an island nation.....that banned guns...

Long ago you quoted an article that said it from guardian. The crime rates up some 27% and so on and in the same article there was said that mostly it is because of the new criminal law. And then you quoted an article on rapes and in the same article - though you cut the quote - it said it is largely due to growing number of reports about rapes.

Similar information can be found from the pages of the government of UK. And from the government pages of other European countries.

It's important for statistics to be official, recent, comprehensive and from the right source. American articles for instance reacting to anything that happens within Europe are always wrong.

 

[2aguy]

I found the train station really creepy with all the signs advising of pick pockets. Hotel people telling me not to walk in the subways alone because of the likelihood of muggings doesn't instill confidence.

Remember Tainted Pommy, crime and especially VIOLENT CRIME is vastly higher in the UK than in America. You might not get shot, but your chances of being the victim of a violent crime are far higher on your side of the pond.

I've been to Birmingham 5 times. We had a plant in Coventry and I would fly into Birmingham, then take the train to Coventry. Stayed at a nasty place called the Hyland since it was close to the plant.

There are no subways in Birmingham. There is no metro system either.

Birmingham...one of the spots with rising gun crime....

Tell us...why are they having gun raids in Britain....?

Rise in UK firearms trade may provide terrorists with weapons, say police

Hogan-Howe said there were more illegal guns on the streets and said the rise in shootings in the last three months was significant: “The fact that we’re seeing it across the country in the big cities probably indicates that we’re talking about more supply.” Nationally, there has been an increase of around 19% in firearms discharges since 2013-14, with London also experiencing roughly that level of increase.

------

Under the new initiative, the Met said, armed patrols will focus on gun crime hotspots across the capital, all of which have pockets of poverty where police and community relations have been strained. They are the boroughs of Newham, Hackney, Haringey, Brent, Lambeth and Southwark.

-----
Scotland Yard said the new initiative, Operation Viper, will see armed officers accompanying officers on traffic stops as part of a suite of “suppression” measures. Hogan-Howe said more stop and search may also be used, as may so called “section 60” powers allowing stops without an officer needing reasonable suspicion. He said any such tactics would be used only if justified by intelligence.

Police say criminals want access to the guns without keeping them at an address that could be linked to them. In one case three Skorpion automatic weapons were found in south London by workmen. They had been concealed in a bag buried in the ground.

In another case, a loaded MAC-10 machine pistol, known as the “spray and pray” weapon, was found in the home of a mother and her children. She had been looking after it for someone else and was jailed for five years.

The EU has its own regulations in firearems and the member states cooperate by following certain common laws and sharing information of the guns illegally on sale in the country, illegally in country (in any case because some guns are simply prohibited since there is no proper usage of them) and most - if not all - EU countries require a strong process on applying for a licence, though some may admit a gun for self defence purposes in which case there needs to be evidence the person needs it for that purpose.

All this, as we all do the same, makes it much easier to affect on the amount of illegal guns, find out where they come from, and put an end to it. Of course some things, like freedom of movement, makes it easier for them to be smuggled. But there is no question all European countries are working on making them safer, which is more than could be said of the nothing US has done about their situation.

Except it isn't anymore......guns are flooding into Europe, and even going across the channel to Britain...

Your gun crime rates are going to go up.......and your people won't be able to defend themselves.....

Can you show me the flood?

Already did...

Hogan-Howe said there were more illegal guns on the streets and said the rise in shootings in the last three months was significant: “The fact that we’re seeing it across the country in the big cities probably indicates that we’re talking about more supply.” Nationally, there has been an increase of around 19% in firearms discharges since 2013-14, with London also experiencing roughly that level of increase.

And here....

Armed police to patrol shooting ‘hotspots’ in Newham, Hackney, Haringey, Brent, Lambeth and Southwark

Armed police patrols will target gun crime hotspots across the capital after a rise in the number of shootings, as Scotland Yard says there are more guns on the streets.

----Scotland Yard said the majority of shootings last year involved handguns. In 2015, 56% were handguns, 27% shotguns, 2% automatic weapons and 15% unknown or converted imitations.

Among victims 42% had links to gangs, and half of victims had links to drug dealing.

Sir Bernard said the rise in shootings nationally suggests that more weapons are getting on to the streets.

“The potential is that more guns have got through than we’ve known about and they’ve got in to the hands of criminals.

That’s the best explanation at the moment. “Clearly in some areas there is a gang element to it but that doesn’t account for all of it.

The fact that we’re seeing it across the country in the big cities probably indicates that we’re talking about more supply.” He warned that terrorists could go to criminal sources to buy guns.

“As we’ve seen in Europe, particularly looking at France and Belgium, if we allow easy access or allow any liberal approach to the possession of firearms for criminals, then it allows the possibility that terrorists get hold of it.Terrorists are generally going to go to a criminal source to supply them, there’s no way we want that to happen in Britain.”

--------

Another story.....


Rise in UK firearms trade may provide terrorists with weapons, say police


Police have warned that the supply of guns to criminals in the UK has increased, adding to fears that weapons may be sold on to terrorists wanting to stage a Paris-style attack in Britain.

-----

He added: “The French and the Belgians accept that in the last 10 years criminals have got more access to weapons, particularly automatic weapons, who have then been the source for the terrorists. If your general supply is higher, the chances of a terrorist getting hold of them are also higher.”

 

[2aguy]

Your thread is fundamental FAIL.

Murder rate in England and Wales rises 11%

And it still equates to one night of gun death in the US. You can only dream of murder rates as low as ours,or the rest of civilised Europe really.

And your gun laws had nothing to do with it......why is it that your gun crime and murder rate are the same as they were before and after the ban...and are now going up? Your gun laws didn't change anything......but your social welfare system, which has created young males with impulse control problems...and your immigration policies....are now creating the violence you think you don't have...

You still haven't come up with an analysis about that. The proper statistics, reasons for them...someone's else's that is, not yours.... I don't buy this story about the new gun regulation being the reason for any notable change in crime rates.

yeah...I did......

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The stats diagram...link to the image...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

"Every place that has banned guns has seen crime rates go up." What are thise, exactly? Or is it just that we renew our definitions of violent crimes?

Australia.....

Gun city: Young, dumb and armed

The notion that a military-grade weapon could be in the hands of local criminals is shocking, but police have already seized at least five machine guns and assault rifles in the past 18 months. The AK-47 was not among them.

Only a fortnight ago, law enforcement authorities announced they were hunting another seven assault rifles recently smuggled into the country. Weapons from the shipment have been used in armed robberies and drive-by shootings.

These are just a handful of the thousands of illicit guns fuelling a wave of violent crime in the world’s most liveable city.

----

Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

Shootings have become almost a weekly occurrence, with more than 125 people, mostly young men, wounded in the past five year

-----------

While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.

Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.

-------------

These weapons have been used in dozens of recent drive-by shootings of homes and businesses, as well as targeted and random attacks in parks, shopping centres and roads.

“They’re young, dumb and armed,” said one former underworld associate, who survived a shooting attempt in the western suburbs several years ago.

“It used to be that if you were involved in something bad you might have to worry about [being shot]. Now people get shot over nothing - unprovoked.”

------------

Gun crime soars
In this series, Fairfax Media looks at Melbourne’s gun problem and the new breed of criminals behind the escalating violence.

The investigation has found:

• There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
• Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
• The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
• Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
• Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts

In response to the violence, it can be revealed the state government is planning to introduce new criminal offences for drive-by shootings, manufacturing of firearms with new technologies such as 3D printers, and more police powers to keep weapons out of the hands of known criminals.
============
The second part of the series....
Gun city: Gunslingers of the North West


========================
'Thousands' of illegal guns tipped to be handed over in firearms amnesty

Asked roughly how many he expected to be handed in, Mr Keenan said: "Look I certainly think the number will be in the thousands."

The Australian Crime Commission estimated in 2012 there were at least 250,000 illegal guns in Australia. But a Senate report noted last year it was impossible to estimate how many illicit weapons are out there.

But....military weapons?

And despite Australia's strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem.

 

[2aguy]

I found the train station really creepy with all the signs advising of pick pockets. Hotel people telling me not to walk in the subways alone because of the likelihood of muggings doesn't instill confidence.

Remember Tainted Pommy, crime and especially VIOLENT CRIME is vastly higher in the UK than in America. You might not get shot, but your chances of being the victim of a violent crime are far higher on your side of the pond.

I've been to Birmingham 5 times. We had a plant in Coventry and I would fly into Birmingham, then take the train to Coventry. Stayed at a nasty place called the Hyland since it was close to the plant.

There are no subways in Birmingham. There is no metro system either.

Birmingham...one of the spots with rising gun crime....

Tell us...why are they having gun raids in Britain....?

Rise in UK firearms trade may provide terrorists with weapons, say police

Hogan-Howe said there were more illegal guns on the streets and said the rise in shootings in the last three months was significant: “The fact that we’re seeing it across the country in the big cities probably indicates that we’re talking about more supply.” Nationally, there has been an increase of around 19% in firearms discharges since 2013-14, with London also experiencing roughly that level of increase.

------

Under the new initiative, the Met said, armed patrols will focus on gun crime hotspots across the capital, all of which have pockets of poverty where police and community relations have been strained. They are the boroughs of Newham, Hackney, Haringey, Brent, Lambeth and Southwark.

-----
Scotland Yard said the new initiative, Operation Viper, will see armed officers accompanying officers on traffic stops as part of a suite of “suppression” measures. Hogan-Howe said more stop and search may also be used, as may so called “section 60” powers allowing stops without an officer needing reasonable suspicion. He said any such tactics would be used only if justified by intelligence.

Police say criminals want access to the guns without keeping them at an address that could be linked to them. In one case three Skorpion automatic weapons were found in south London by workmen. They had been concealed in a bag buried in the ground.

In another case, a loaded MAC-10 machine pistol, known as the “spray and pray” weapon, was found in the home of a mother and her children. She had been looking after it for someone else and was jailed for five years.

The EU has its own regulations in firearems and the member states cooperate by following certain common laws and sharing information of the guns illegally on sale in the country, illegally in country (in any case because some guns are simply prohibited since there is no proper usage of them) and most - if not all - EU countries require a strong process on applying for a licence, though some may admit a gun for self defence purposes in which case there needs to be evidence the person needs it for that purpose.

All this, as we all do the same, makes it much easier to affect on the amount of illegal guns, find out where they come from, and put an end to it. Of course some things, like freedom of movement, makes it easier for them to be smuggled. But there is no question all European countries are working on making them safer, which is more than could be said of the nothing US has done about their situation.

Except it isn't anymore......guns are flooding into Europe, and even going across the channel to Britain...

Your gun crime rates are going to go up.......and your people won't be able to defend themselves.....

Can you show me the flood?

And more on increasing gun crime in Australia....a country that banned guns...

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...r/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c



MONDAY’S siege in Sydney that saw three people shot and three held hostage before the gunman turned the firearm on himself was a terrifying reminder of the Lindt cafe crisis just over a year ago.

It comes as another man was shot dead in Victoria at close range last night, three days after a man was killed in a suspected shooting at a Melbourne motel and four days after a man was shot dead at a property in Ipswich, Queensland, with police called just after 2am.

Last month, a man accused of a shooting in Canberra allegedly boasted to police that the victim would be dead if he had pulled the trigger, because he had significant experience with firearms, despite not having a licence.

There were 207 firearms deaths in Australia in 2013, a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 people, higher than in 19 other countries, including the UK, Bolivia and Zimbabwe.

While we often shake our heads in horror at America’s problems with gun crime, it’s clear we are far from immune from the deadly influence of firearms.

-----------

In New South Wales, weapons offences have risen 8.7 per cent per year over the past five years, to 11,471 in the year to September 2015. The New Daily reported in November that incidents involving firearms rose 83 per cent in NSW from 2005-6 to 2014-5. Charges for possession and trafficking of guns in South Australia saw a 49 per cent rise over four years.

 

[2aguy]

Its because of the way crime is recorded.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
UPDATED:18:14 EST, 2 July 2009

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 920 and South Africa 1,609.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

Read more: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Daily Mail Online

Its because of the way crime is recorded.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
UPDATED:18:14 EST, 2 July 2009

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 920 and South Africa 1,609.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

Read more: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Daily Mail Online

It's a worthless article since all these countries have a different definition for a violent crime.

The main reason the crime levels jumped is because UK is going toward zero tolerance in violence like other civilized countries.

No.....the reason for the increase in violence is decades of single mothers raising young male children without fathers, immigrants from violent 3rd world countries, and a reduction in the British police force...and an unarmed citizenry.....all the things we had driving ours, until we increased our gun ownership and our gun carrying and our violent crime rates dropped 72%...our gun murder rate dropped 49% and our gun crime rate dropped 75%


While gun crime in London and other British cities increased 10%......an island nation.....that banned guns...

Long ago you quoted an article that said it from guardian. The crime rates up some 27% and so on and in the same article there was said that mostly it is because of the new criminal law. And then you quoted an article on rapes and in the same article - though you cut the quote - it said it is largely due to growing number of reports about rapes.

Similar information can be found from the pages of the government of UK. And from the government pages of other European countries.

It's important for statistics to be official, recent, comprehensive and from the right source. American articles for instance reacting to anything that happens within Europe are always wrong.

And France......

French gunman's arsenal spotlights illegal arms trade

As France asks itself whether it could have done more to prevent Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah shooting dead seven people in a killing spree that shook the nation, there is one question that refuses to go away: how did he obtain so many guns.

The size and nature of the arsenal amassed by Merah - who stockpiled at least eight guns including a Kalashnikov assault rifle and an Uzi machine pistol - has focused attention on the easy availability of illegal weapons in France and their growing use in ultra-violent crimes.

As an angry online reader of the daily Le Figaro newspaper put it: "How was he able to buy all these guns, like one buys yoghurts, when he was under the surveillance of the DCRI (the French intelligence agency)?"


====================
Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

But in recent years a black market has proliferated. The number of illegal weapons has risen at a rapid rate – double-digit percentages – for several years, according to the National Observatory for Delinquency, a body created in 2003.

“In Marseille and the surrounding area almost all the score settling is carried out using weapons used in wars,” a police spokesman told Reuters after the Toulouse attacks, adding that Kalashnikovs were the weapon of choice: “If you don’t have a ‘Kalash’ you’re a bit of a loser.”

============================
Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.



-------------=================
France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns.

The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.
----------------------
How Europe's Terrorists Get Their Guns

France became particularly worried about the trafficking of illegal guns in 2012, increasing fines and jail terms for those involved in the trafficking and possession of them. Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said in Septemberthat police have seized nearly 6,000 weapons from criminal groups each year since 2013, 1,200 of which were military assault weapons. And in the three weeks following the Nov. 13 attacks, Cazeneuve said French police seized 334 weapons, 34 of them military-grade.

Several officials and experts tell TIME they’ve seen a noticeable climb in both the numbers and the types of illicit weapons crossing borders over the past few years.

Rather than pistols and small guns, there has been a spike in demand for military-grade assault weapons.

This reflects a very different kind of criminality: petty criminals and drug dealers tend to want small pistols that they can conceal; terrorists want AK-47s that can do maximum damage.

“For something like the Paris attacks, you don’t need hundreds of thousands of weapons. You just need enough to create havoc,” says Zverzhanovski. “The gun market operates on a very basic supply and demand system.

Since about 2011, there has definitely been a significant increase of illicit weapons going from southeast Europe towards different parts of the E.U.”

Crucially, it’s not truckloads or planeloads of weapons coming in. It’s much more a case of “micro-trafficking”—a few pieces being brought in by individuals—making it much more difficult to track.

 

[Meane]

And Britain never deludes itself over a bogus freedom that was never there.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

At least you know your role, commoner serf!

All the while you advocate for your own serfdom, why?

the British sheep still bow to a monarch
no American would ever take such a person seriously

The American president is a near same thing. His power should be reduced with about 85% to make America a proper democracy. On the other hand I suppose Americans are notably less satisfied with their government. Always blaming the president for everything.

 

[Meane]

They were nazis not socialists.

Quite a difference between Nazism and socialism.

 

[Meane]

Most crimes are done by your "native" Americans. Over last few years the rates on crimes committed by immigrants on the other hand, has dropped notably though Trump won't tell you that.

Please edit your post to reflect the actual discussion. The discussion concerns ILLEGAL ALIENS, period. I realize that is impossible for you since those statistics do not exist.

It does? I don't think so.

 

[2aguy]

They were nazis not socialists.

Quite a difference between Nazism and socialism.

No....not at all....

Nazism is Socialism -- F A Hayek, et al

By Friedrich August von Hayek Spring 1933

Hoover Institution, F. A. Hayek Papers, Box/Folder 105 : 10.

Incomprehensible as the recent events in Germany must seem to anyone who has known that country chiefly in the democratic post-war years, any attempt fully to understand these developments must treat them as the culmination of tendencies which date back to a period long before the Great War. Nothing could be more superficial than to consider the forces which dominate the Germany of today as reactionary – in the sense that they want a return to the social and economic order of 1914.

The persecution of the Marxists, and of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National “Socialism” is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in Germany since the later part of the Bismarckian era, and which led the majority of the German intelligentsia first to “socialism of the chair” and later to Marxism in its social-democratic or communist form.

One of the main reasons why the socialist character of National Socialism has been quite generally unrecognized, is, no doubt, its alliance with the nationalist groups which represent the great industries and the great landowners. But this merely proves that these groups too -as they have since learnt to their bitter disappointment -have, at least partly, been mistaken as to the nature of the movement. But only partly because -and this is the most characteristic feature of modern Germany – many capitalists are themselves strongly influenced by socialistic ideas, and have not sufficient belief in capitalism to defend it with a clear conscience. But, in spite of this, the German entrepreneur class have manifested almost incredible short-sightedness in allying themselves with a move movement of whose strong anti-capitalistic tendencies there should never have been any doubt.

A careful observer must always have been aware that the opposition of the Nazis to the established socialist parties, which gained them the sympathy of the entrepreneur, was only to a very small extend directed against their economic policy.

What the Nazis mainly objected to was their internationalism and all the aspects of their cultural programme which were still influenced by liberal ideas. But the accusations against the social-democrats and the communists which were most effective in their propaganda were not so much directed against their programme as against their supposed practice -their corruption and nepotism, and even their alleged alliance with “the golden International of Jewish Capitalism.”

It would, indeed, hardly have been possible for the Nationalists to advance fundamental objections to the economic policy of the other socialist parties when their own published programme differed from these only in that its socialism was much cruder and less rational. The famous 25 points drawn up by Herr Feder,[2] one of Hitler’s early allies, repeatedly endorsed by Hitler and recognized by the by-laws of the National-Socialist party as the immutable basis of all its actions, which together with an extensive commentary is circulating throughout Germany in many hundreds of thousands of copies, is full of ideas resembling those of the early socialists.

But the dominant feature is a fierce hatred of anything capitalistic -individualistic profit seeking, large scale enterprise, banks, joint-stock companies, department stores, “international finance and loan capital,” the system of “interest slavery” in general; the abolition of these is described as the “[indecipherable] of the programme, around which everything else turns.” It was to this programme that the masses of the German people, who were already completely under the influence of collectivist ideas, responded so enthusiastically.

That this violent anti-capitalistic attack is genuine – and not a mere piece of propaganda – becomes as clear from the personal history of the intellectual leaders of the movement as from the general milieu from which it springs.

It is not even denied that man of the young men who today play a prominent part in it have previously been communists or socialists. And to any observer of the literary tendencies which made the Germans intelligentsia ready to join the ranks of the new party, it must be clear that the common characteristic of all the politically influential writers – in many cases free from definite party affiliations – was their anti-liberal and anti-capitalist trend.

Groups like that formed around the review “Die Tat” have made the phrase “the end of capitalism” an accepted dogma to most young Germans.[3]

------

The collectivist and anti-individualistic character of German National Socialism is not much modified by the fact that it is not a proletarian but middle class socialism, and that it is, in consequence, inclined to favour the small artisan and shop keeper and to set the limit up to which it recognizes private property somewhat higher than does communism.

In the first instance, it will probably nominally recognise private property in general.

But private initiative will probably be hedged about with restrictions on competition so that little freedom will remain.

 

[Meane]

It's a worthless article since all these countries have a different definition for a violent crime.

The main reason the crime levels jumped is because UK is going toward zero tolerance in violence like other civilized countries.

So, according to you, the United Kingdom's crime level jumped because they QUIT ALLOWING CRIMINAL VIOLENCE. In the past, the UK tolerated violent crime.

Really? How comforting!

As a disclaimer, I did NOT write the post for "Meane".

Violent crime by US definition.

In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

Violent crime by UK definition involves nearly all crimes against a person directly. Shoving someone at the bus stop is a violent crime. Snatching a wallet from someone is a violent crime.

The most recent Eurostat figures on crime and criminal justice statistics show that the levels of police-recorded intentional homicide and assault steadily decreased across the EU-28

The data shown in this article were collected through the first Eurostat-United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) joint data collection on crime and criminal justice statistics using the Survey on Crime Trends developed by the UNODC and additional data requested by Eurostat. More information relating to additional data and analysis may be found here.

Countries were asked to adhere to standard definitions when assembling the figures and to provide details of any divergences.

Figures for the United Kingdom are reported separately (for England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) owing to the existence of three separate jurisdictions.

The data are taken from administrative records. However, direct comparisons of crime levels based on the absolute figures are influenced by many factors, including:

different legal and criminal justice systems;
rates at which crimes are reported and recorded (by the police);
differences in the point at which crime is measured (for example, when reported to the police, on identification of suspects, etc.);
differences in the rules by which multiple offences are counted;
differences in the list of offences that are included in the overall crime figures.

Crime and criminal justice statistics - Statistics Explained

There have been two major changes to the recording of crimes in recent years: in April 1998
the Home Office Counting Rules for Recorded Crime were expanded to include certain
additional summary offences and counts became more victim-based (the number of victims
was counted rather than the number of offences); in April 2002, the NCRS was introduced
across England and Wales, although some forces adopted key elements of the standard
earlier and compliance with the standard continued to improve in the years following its formal
introduction. The NCRS was devised by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) in
collaboration with Home Office statisticians. It was designed to ensure greater consistency
between forces in recording crime and to take a more victim-oriented approach to crime
recording with the police being required to record any allegation of crime unless there was
credible evidence to the contrary (Simmons et al., 2003).
Both these changes resulted in an increase in the number of crimes recorded. Certain
offences, such as the more minor violent crimes, were more affected by these changes

 

[Meane]

They were nazis not socialists.

Quite a difference between Nazism and socialism.

No....not at all....

Nazism is Socialism -- F A Hayek, et al

By Friedrich August von Hayek Spring 1933

Hoover Institution, F. A. Hayek Papers, Box/Folder 105 : 10.

Incomprehensible as the recent events in Germany must seem to anyone who has known that country chiefly in the democratic post-war years, any attempt fully to understand these developments must treat them as the culmination of tendencies which date back to a period long before the Great War. Nothing could be more superficial than to consider the forces which dominate the Germany of today as reactionary – in the sense that they want a return to the social and economic order of 1914.

The persecution of the Marxists, and of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National “Socialism” is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in Germany since the later part of the Bismarckian era, and which led the majority of the German intelligentsia first to “socialism of the chair” and later to Marxism in its social-democratic or communist form.

One of the main reasons why the socialist character of National Socialism has been quite generally unrecognized, is, no doubt, its alliance with the nationalist groups which represent the great industries and the great landowners. But this merely proves that these groups too -as they have since learnt to their bitter disappointment -have, at least partly, been mistaken as to the nature of the movement. But only partly because -and this is the most characteristic feature of modern Germany – many capitalists are themselves strongly influenced by socialistic ideas, and have not sufficient belief in capitalism to defend it with a clear conscience. But, in spite of this, the German entrepreneur class have manifested almost incredible short-sightedness in allying themselves with a move movement of whose strong anti-capitalistic tendencies there should never have been any doubt.

A careful observer must always have been aware that the opposition of the Nazis to the established socialist parties, which gained them the sympathy of the entrepreneur, was only to a very small extend directed against their economic policy.

What the Nazis mainly objected to was their internationalism and all the aspects of their cultural programme which were still influenced by liberal ideas. But the accusations against the social-democrats and the communists which were most effective in their propaganda were not so much directed against their programme as against their supposed practice -their corruption and nepotism, and even their alleged alliance with “the golden International of Jewish Capitalism.”

It would, indeed, hardly have been possible for the Nationalists to advance fundamental objections to the economic policy of the other socialist parties when their own published programme differed from these only in that its socialism was much cruder and less rational. The famous 25 points drawn up by Herr Feder,[2] one of Hitler’s early allies, repeatedly endorsed by Hitler and recognized by the by-laws of the National-Socialist party as the immutable basis of all its actions, which together with an extensive commentary is circulating throughout Germany in many hundreds of thousands of copies, is full of ideas resembling those of the early socialists.

But the dominant feature is a fierce hatred of anything capitalistic -individualistic profit seeking, large scale enterprise, banks, joint-stock companies, department stores, “international finance and loan capital,” the system of “interest slavery” in general; the abolition of these is described as the “[indecipherable] of the programme, around which everything else turns.” It was to this programme that the masses of the German people, who were already completely under the influence of collectivist ideas, responded so enthusiastically.

That this violent anti-capitalistic attack is genuine – and not a mere piece of propaganda – becomes as clear from the personal history of the intellectual leaders of the movement as from the general milieu from which it springs.

It is not even denied that man of the young men who today play a prominent part in it have previously been communists or socialists. And to any observer of the literary tendencies which made the Germans intelligentsia ready to join the ranks of the new party, it must be clear that the common characteristic of all the politically influential writers – in many cases free from definite party affiliations – was their anti-liberal and anti-capitalist trend.

Groups like that formed around the review “Die Tat” have made the phrase “the end of capitalism” an accepted dogma to most young Germans.[3]

------

The collectivist and anti-individualistic character of German National Socialism is not much modified by the fact that it is not a proletarian but middle class socialism, and that it is, in consequence, inclined to favour the small artisan and shop keeper and to set the limit up to which it recognizes private property somewhat higher than does communism.

In the first instance, it will probably nominally recognise private property in general.

But private initiative will probably be hedged about with restrictions on competition so that little freedom will remain.

Nazism is a political theory. Socilaism is not. Hitler thought the idea of socilaism as it existed already was distorted so he made his own. Hence it can't be called socialism as Marx thought it. And nationalism is a whole other thing which in itself had nothing to do with socialism.

 

[Issa]

Delusional much? Europe and Australia are a lot safer than the US. Keep on dreaming....this gun romance in the US is laughed at overseas. People die from the gun violence here more than some war torn countries. The stats pUT the IS up there with Salvador, honduras and other third world countries.

It's also cultural, Americans are very agresave and resort to voilence more than their counter parts in civilised countries.

Posed off at the wife, kills her and kill himself and shoot others.
Bullied at achool, kills few students
Gets fired pick a gun and go shoot at his workmates.
Road rage shoot at the motorists.
Wanna rob go grab a gun and rob the closest store to ya.
Doesn't like a politician shoot him or her.
Don't like abortion clinic go kill the workers there.
And the last goes on. You guys are sick and think that owning gun will protect you and make your life more serene.
And the joke I heAR all the time, oh we have guns incase the government goes tyrant on us we fight back LOL. Goodluck fighting against drones, satellite guided missiles, tanks and nukes.

And it still equates to one night of gun death in the US. You can only dream of murder rates as low as ours,or the rest of civilised Europe really.

And your gun laws had nothing to do with it......why is it that your gun crime and murder rate are the same as they were before and after the ban...and are now going up? Your gun laws didn't change anything......but your social welfare system, which has created young males with impulse control problems...and your immigration policies....are now creating the violence you think you don't have...

You still haven't come up with an analysis about that. The proper statistics, reasons for them...someone's else's that is, not yours.... I don't buy this story about the new gun regulation being the reason for any notable change in crime rates.

yeah...I did......

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The stats diagram...link to the image...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

"Every place that has banned guns has seen crime rates go up." What are thise, exactly? Or is it just that we renew our definitions of violent crimes?

Britain.....Australia....the rest of Europe....they are experiencing more crime.....after they banned guns.....their criminals get guns when they want them and the only thing they haven't been doing is murdering people...and that is changing....

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Delusional much? Europe and Australia are a lot safer than the US. Keep on dreaming....this gun romance in the US is laughed at overseas. People die from the gun violence here more than some war torn countries. The stats pUT the IS up there with Salvador, honduras and other third world countries.

It's also cultural, Americans are very agresave and resort to voilence more than their counter parts in civilised countries.

Posed off at the wife, kills her and kill himself and shoot others.
Bullied at achool, kills few students
Gets fired pick a gun and go shoot at his workmates.
Road rage shoot at the motorists.
Wanna rob go grab a gun and rob the closest store to ya.
Doesn't like a politician shoot him or her.
Don't like abortion clinic go kill the workers there.
And the last goes on. You guys are sick and think that owning gun will protect you and make your life more serene.
And the joke I heAR all the time, oh we have guns incase the government goes tyrant on us we fight back LOL. Goodluck fighting against drones, satellite guided missiles, tanks and nukes.

And your gun laws had nothing to do with it......why is it that your gun crime and murder rate are the same as they were before and after the ban...and are now going up? Your gun laws didn't change anything......but your social welfare system, which has created young males with impulse control problems...and your immigration policies....are now creating the violence you think you don't have...

You still haven't come up with an analysis about that. The proper statistics, reasons for them...someone's else's that is, not yours.... I don't buy this story about the new gun regulation being the reason for any notable change in crime rates.

yeah...I did......

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The stats diagram...link to the image...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

"Every place that has banned guns has seen crime rates go up." What are thise, exactly? Or is it just that we renew our definitions of violent crimes?

Britain.....Australia....the rest of Europe....they are experiencing more crime.....after they banned guns.....their criminals get guns when they want them and the only thing they haven't been doing is murdering people...and that is changing....

Small dick syndrome I think. They use the guns to compensate for their inadequacies.

 

[Issa]

It's cultural...from the wild west era add to that the movies, video games and so forth.
In 2015 alone there were 372 mass shooting in the US.
64 school shooting ....I lived 23 years in a country where I haven't heard of someone who saw a gun or heard of violence cause by a gun, let alone in schools.
Almost 14 000 people got killed by guns, more than Iraq, lybia, Afghanistan and all the civilised countries.

Wake the hell up people.

 

[Meane]

What would happen if the first thing when they get to the country, you don't sell them guns but help them 'integrate'.

The Islamic refugees have proven, time and again, they have no desire, nor will they ever assimilate into a Christian society.

Why do I know so many that do?

 

[Skull Pilot]

And Britain never deludes itself over a bogus freedom that was never there.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

At least you know your role, commoner serf!

All the while you advocate for your own serfdom, why?

the British sheep still bow to a monarch
no American would ever take such a person seriously

The American president is a near same thing. His power should be reduced with about 85% to make America a proper democracy. On the other hand I suppose Americans are notably less satisfied with their government. Always blaming the president for everything.

not even close the president can serve only 2 four year terms then he is out and nnne of are kids are automatically the president when he is done

 

[Skull Pilot]

Delusional much? Europe and Australia are a lot safer than the US. Keep on dreaming....this gun romance in the US is laughed at overseas. People die from the gun violence here more than some war torn countries. The stats pUT the IS up there with Salvador, honduras and other third world countries.

It's also cultural, Americans are very agresave and resort to voilence more than their counter parts in civilised countries.

Posed off at the wife, kills her and kill himself and shoot others.
Bullied at achool, kills few students
Gets fired pick a gun and go shoot at his workmates.
Road rage shoot at the motorists.
Wanna rob go grab a gun and rob the closest store to ya.
Doesn't like a politician shoot him or her.
Don't like abortion clinic go kill the workers there.
And the last goes on. You guys are sick and think that owning gun will protect you and make your life more serene.
And the joke I heAR all the time, oh we have guns incase the government goes tyrant on us we fight back LOL. Goodluck fighting against drones, satellite guided missiles, tanks and nukes.

You still haven't come up with an analysis about that. The proper statistics, reasons for them...someone's else's that is, not yours.... I don't buy this story about the new gun regulation being the reason for any notable change in crime rates.

yeah...I did......

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The stats diagram...link to the image...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/UK-Firearm-crime-statistics.png

"Every place that has banned guns has seen crime rates go up." What are thise, exactly? Or is it just that we renew our definitions of violent crimes?

Britain.....Australia....the rest of Europe....they are experiencing more crime.....after they banned guns.....their criminals get guns when they want them and the only thing they haven't been doing is murdering people...and that is changing....

Small dick syndrome I think. They use the guns to compensate for their inadequacies.

and yet only immature control freak idiots liken guns to sexual organs

 

[Skull Pilot]

What would happen if the first thing when they get to the country, you don't sell them guns but help them 'integrate'.

The Islamic refugees have proven, time and again, they have no desire, nor will they ever assimilate into a Christian society.

Why do I know so many that do?

anecdotal therefore meaningless

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's cultural...from the wild west era add to that the movies, video games and so forth.
In 2015 alone there were 372 mass shooting in the US.
64 school shooting ....I lived 23 years in a country where I haven't heard of someone who saw a gun or heard of violence cause by a gun, let alone in schools.
Almost 14 000 people got killed by guns, more than Iraq, lybia, Afghanistan and all the civilised countries.

Wake the hell up people.

the wild west wasn't so wild

but since you get your history lessons from movies and TV I can see why you would think so