Has science proved there is no God?

[sealybobo]

Religion never cured a desease and they never invent shit. Look at the ones who still ride horse buggies. Look at theists who fight medicine when their kids are sick.

 

[sealybobo]

Weve explained to boss why cavemen came up with god. To deal with not knowing how we got here or what happens when we die. We hated not knowing and it seemed obvious and logical that we were put here and this was made for us and we were gods only children. The earth stood still and everything revolved around us. Boy were we wrong.

I see you continue to "explain" things, the problem is, you've offered NO SCIENCE to back your speculations and opinions at all. Furthermore, your hypothesis fails when we compare it with everything we know regarding animal behavior and evolution. Not to mention, the oldest human civilizations we know of, demonstrated spiritual ritual and ceremony. You've never established a time line as to when man "invented" this.

Even further.. IF we simply take it on faith that you are correct, your hypothesis still fails the test of objective reasoning. Everything that makes humans special as living creatures is centered on our ability to be profoundly inspired by something greater than self. It's why we harnessed fire, invented the wheel, went to the moon, split the atom, etc., etc., etc. This is extremely remarkable for a meaningless attribute we just pulled out of our ass on the fly!

Fuck, we're really lucky sons of bitches! No other living thing has ever used it's imagination to conjure up something superficial and have it be the catalyst for it's own natural evolution.

Who knows what humans will be like in 1000 or 2000 more years. I doubt a more evolved human will still be religious. Spiritual maybe but think more buddhist light.

 

[sealybobo]

Zeus served a purpose but he died. So will your god.

 

[Brucethethinker]

Greetings forumites.

I watched the video rather carefully, then read the thread, although I did skim once I figured out what the various people were going to say.

It was a pretty good video, very interesting. I was a physics major in college until I switched to math. Physics has come so far since then. I understood classical physics pretty well, but I got lost in relativity.

It's obvious that many of the comments in this thread were made by people who did not watch the video, and in my opinion they can't contribute anything useful and are wasting everyone's time, i.e. it's trollish.

The presentation could have been made 200 years ago, when classical physics was getting wrapped up. For today's engineer designing cars, he doesn't need to know or believe in the theory of relativity. If he was working on space vehicles he would, but for cars classical physics is all he needs. The "Fundamental nature of reality", I believe, is more about us, our brains, than it is about the physical universe.

Some of the comments I'd like to respond to:

Hollie: "The gods are just place holders."
The word "god" has always, throughout time, meant "the unknown". Virtually all the disagreement on this thread, and everywhere about "god" originates because no one has bothered to define "god". Define "god", before you say god exists, or god is real, or anything about god. At one time "god" was what made thunder, we now know what thunder is, and even the most fundamental believers no longer say "god" causes thunder. "God" is what we call the cause things we don't understand.

Sealybobo: "Science is true whether you believe in it or not."
Science is the search for truth. Religion doesn't seek truth, religion claims to already know everything we need to know. Religion is about ignorance.

Boss: "Was Science true when Aristotle said things slow down because they become tired?"
Yes it was! It's just that Aristotle came BEFORE science, he was part of the creation of science, which is basically a mental discipline that has been incredibly successful at everything it has tried to do. Now, when I say "science", I don't mean "social science", which is bull shit, or "scientific creationism", which is cow shit.

At 37:05- Ken Wilson, what a monster that guy was! I had never heard of him. I need to read more about him.

I noticed that youtube brought up another video when this one ended, it was Sean Carroll again, "God is not a good theory". I haven't watched it, but if he doesn't start right out by defining god, then he is a second rate wannabe scientist.

So, has science proved there is no god? Of course not. Science is the search for truth, "god" doesn't lead to finding truth.

 

[Boss]

Weve explained to boss why cavemen came up with god. To deal with not knowing how we got here or what happens when we die. We hated not knowing and it seemed obvious and logical that we were put here and this was made for us and we were gods only children. The earth stood still and everything revolved around us. Boy were we wrong.

I see you continue to "explain" things, the problem is, you've offered NO SCIENCE to back your speculations and opinions at all. Furthermore, your hypothesis fails when we compare it with everything we know regarding animal behavior and evolution. Not to mention, the oldest human civilizations we know of, demonstrated spiritual ritual and ceremony. You've never established a time line as to when man "invented" this.

Even further.. IF we simply take it on faith that you are correct, your hypothesis still fails the test of objective reasoning. Everything that makes humans special as living creatures is centered on our ability to be profoundly inspired by something greater than self. It's why we harnessed fire, invented the wheel, went to the moon, split the atom, etc., etc., etc. This is extremely remarkable for a meaningless attribute we just pulled out of our ass on the fly!

Fuck, we're really lucky sons of bitches! No other living thing has ever used it's imagination to conjure up something superficial and have it be the catalyst for it's own natural evolution.

What was it that made ancient man come up with god? Did god visit or did they only have your logic?

We have already determined the fault is in your logic. Man didn't "come up with" god. There is no scientific evidence man invented spirituality. I'll keep on pointing this out until you understand this is simply NOT a scientific observation. Any idea you may have about where human spirituality came from is only a speculative opinion.

My position is, man has always had spirituality... it's not invented, it's natural. It can't be invented unless we accidentally invented something with our imagination which created astounding inspiration in man to become more than he is. Since we see no similar imaginary inventions of behavior in nature, we have to assume this isn't the case for humans.

 

[Boss]

I've never heard the word god brought up in a science conversation. God has nothing to do with fire or the wheel or going to the moon Carl Sagan did.

Really? Humans didn't harness fire or invent the wheel until Carl Sagan?

Human achievement is through inspiration that we can be better than we are. This inspiration came from our intrinsic spiritual understanding that something is greater than self. We draw from a power greater than ourself to achieve the impossible, and we've been doing this for over 100k years.

It is NOT a coincidence that we are the only species to have mastered higher intelligence and ALSO the only species who consciously acknowledges and exhibits spirituality and spiritual awareness.

 

[Boss]

Boss: "Was Science true when Aristotle said things slow down because they become tired?"
Yes it was! It's just that Aristotle came BEFORE science, he was part of the creation of science, which is basically a mental discipline that has been incredibly successful at everything it has tried to do. Now, when I say "science", I don't mean "social science", which is bull shit, or "scientific creationism", which is cow shit.

The answer is No. Science (which at the time was called natural philosophy) said that things slow down because they become tired. This WAS what science said for 2,000 years, until Newton proved otherwise.

So we can never conclude Science is "true" because we may not know truth yet. Until all is known in the entire universe (and beyond, if it exists), then we cannot state that we know truth. We can believe that we do, that is called "faith." And that is what we have.

 

[Brucethethinker]

Science (which at the time was called natural philosophy) said that things slow down because they become tired.

We have a definition for the word "tired", which isn't exactly the same as it was thousands of years ago. People become tired when they expend energy. Bodies in motion slow down when they expend energy overcoming friction. When a body in motion has lost all its energy, it no longer moves. In other words, things slow down because they become tired. Aristotle was, and is, correct.

 

[Boss]

Science (which at the time was called natural philosophy) said that things slow down because they become tired.

We have a definition for the word "tired", which isn't exactly the same as it was thousands of years ago. People become tired when they expend energy. Bodies in motion slow down when they expend energy overcoming friction. When a body in motion has lost all its energy, it no longer moves. In other words, things slow down because they become tired. Aristotle was, and is, correct.

No, Aristotle was incorrect. He was also incorrect about Levity and things longing to be in the heavens and heavier things falling faster than lighter things. Newtonian calculus explains the fundamental laws of motion. For a few hundred more years, science thought Newton's Laws of Motion were empirical and unchallengeable...The Truth... proven scientific "fact" as it were, but Einstein came along and said, "Not so fast!" Time is not linear it is relative... e=mc2. Then later, Hawking would challenge Einstein... Science is a never-ending quest for the truth.

 

[Politico]

Has science proved there is no God?

No. The religious folks have not proven there is one.

 

[sealybobo]

Weve explained to boss why cavemen came up with god. To deal with not knowing how we got here or what happens when we die. We hated not knowing and it seemed obvious and logical that we were put here and this was made for us and we were gods only children. The earth stood still and everything revolved around us. Boy were we wrong.

I see you continue to "explain" things, the problem is, you've offered NO SCIENCE to back your speculations and opinions at all. Furthermore, your hypothesis fails when we compare it with everything we know regarding animal behavior and evolution. Not to mention, the oldest human civilizations we know of, demonstrated spiritual ritual and ceremony. You've never established a time line as to when man "invented" this.

Even further.. IF we simply take it on faith that you are correct, your hypothesis still fails the test of objective reasoning. Everything that makes humans special as living creatures is centered on our ability to be profoundly inspired by something greater than self. It's why we harnessed fire, invented the wheel, went to the moon, split the atom, etc., etc., etc. This is extremely remarkable for a meaningless attribute we just pulled out of our ass on the fly!

Fuck, we're really lucky sons of bitches! No other living thing has ever used it's imagination to conjure up something superficial and have it be the catalyst for it's own natural evolution.

What was it that made ancient man come up with god? Did god visit or did they only have your logic?

We have already determined the fault is in your logic. Man didn't "come up with" god. There is no scientific evidence man invented spirituality. I'll keep on pointing this out until you understand this is simply NOT a scientific observation. Any idea you may have about where human spirituality came from is only a speculative opinion.

My position is, man has always had spirituality... it's not invented, it's natural. It can't be invented unless we accidentally invented something with our imagination which created astounding inspiration in man to become more than he is. Since we see no similar imaginary inventions of behavior in nature, we have to assume this isn't the case for humans.

Psychology is the scientific evidence why we invented god. Hell you are evidence. They thought like you. They/you invented god. You're a caveman.

So what evidence did Adam and eve have a god existed?

Remember they thought the universe revolved around them because the earth wasn't moving. They knew we were the center of it all. We know better now. At least I do.

 

[sealybobo]

Science (which at the time was called natural philosophy) said that things slow down because they become tired.

We have a definition for the word "tired", which isn't exactly the same as it was thousands of years ago. People become tired when they expend energy. Bodies in motion slow down when they expend energy overcoming friction. When a body in motion has lost all its energy, it no longer moves. In other words, things slow down because they become tired. Aristotle was, and is, correct.

No, Aristotle was incorrect. He was also incorrect about Levity and things longing to be in the heavens and heavier things falling faster than lighter things. Newtonian calculus explains the fundamental laws of motion. For a few hundred more years, science thought Newton's Laws of Motion were empirical and unchallengeable...The Truth... proven scientific "fact" as it were, but Einstein came along and said, "Not so fast!" Time is not linear it is relative... e=mc2. Then later, Hawking would challenge Einstein... Science is a never-ending quest for the truth.

And religion is the presumption of truth.

 

[sealybobo]

I've never heard the word god brought up in a science conversation. God has nothing to do with fire or the wheel or going to the moon Carl Sagan did.

Really? Humans didn't harness fire or invent the wheel until Carl Sagan?

Human achievement is through inspiration that we can be better than we are. This inspiration came from our intrinsic spiritual understanding that something is greater than self. We draw from a power greater than ourself to achieve the impossible, and we've been doing this for over 100k years.

It is NOT a coincidence that we are the only species to have mastered higher intelligence and ALSO the only species who consciously acknowledges and exhibits spirituality and spiritual awareness.

We are the only things smart enough on this planet. And who knows. Give it another 10,000 years dogs might believe too.

Its not a coincidence? How do you know that? You say a lot of things that arent necessarily true.

The universe is greater than self. All you're saying is humans hate not knowing.

 

[Boss]

Psychology is the scientific evidence why we invented god. Hell you are evidence. They thought like you. They/you invented god. You're a caveman.

So what evidence did Adam and eve have a god existed?

Remember they thought the universe revolved around them because the earth wasn't moving. They knew we were the center of it all. We know better now. At least I do.

Nonsense. Psychology is evidence we couldn't have created Spirituality. I'm not a caveman, I didn't invent God, nor did my thoughts. When are you going to produce some fucking evidence? Stop dancing around trying to be cute and present your evidence if you have any. If you don't have evidence, admit that you don't. See.. we go through this about every week, you'll say something stupid you can't back up with evidence and I call you out on it, but then you start changing the subject, dancing around, distracting and diverting, dodging the request for evidence. All your buddies line up and give you thanks and thumbs up, and I guess that means something to you?

Why are you changing the subject away from human spirituality and back to Adam and Eve? The Adam and Eve story is maybe 4-6k years old, human spirituality is over 100k years old. Adam and Eve could be a metaphor or allegory and nothing to do with a real event and real people. It does not matter because that's not when people began being spiritual. I'm not here to defend stories from the Bible, I don't know if any of them are true or not. All religions are invented by man, human spirituality is not.

Yes... People once believed the Earth was center of the universe, and perhaps their spirituality was somewhat responsible for that line of thinking? But what you are saying should demonstrate how profoundly important spirituality is to humans. Humans didn't stop being spiritual when they found out they were wrong. If it were all fake and made up, stuff like that would have killed it stone dead. But nope... 95% of us still believe in something greater than self and about 5% do not. Same as it has been for 100k+ years.

Now present some goddamn science evidence that contradicts this or stop pretending it has been refuted.

 

[Hollie]

Psychology is the scientific evidence why we invented god. Hell you are evidence. They thought like you. They/you invented god. You're a caveman.

So what evidence did Adam and eve have a god existed?

Remember they thought the universe revolved around them because the earth wasn't moving. They knew we were the center of it all. We know better now. At least I do.

Nonsense. Psychology is evidence we couldn't have created Spirituality. I'm not a caveman, I didn't invent God, nor did my thoughts. When are you going to produce some fucking evidence? Stop dancing around trying to be cute and present your evidence if you have any. If you don't have evidence, admit that you don't. See.. we go through this about every week, you'll say something stupid you can't back up with evidence and I call you out on it, but then you start changing the subject, dancing around, distracting and diverting, dodging the request for evidence. All your buddies line up and give you thanks and thumbs up, and I guess that means something to you?

Why are you changing the subject away from human spirituality and back to Adam and Eve? The Adam and Eve story is maybe 4-6k years old, human spirituality is over 100k years old. Adam and Eve could be a metaphor or allegory and nothing to do with a real event and real people. It does not matter because that's not when people began being spiritual. I'm not here to defend stories from the Bible, I don't know if any of them are true or not. All religions are invented by man, human spirituality is not.

Yes... People once believed the Earth was center of the universe, and perhaps their spirituality was somewhat responsible for that line of thinking? But what you are saying should demonstrate how profoundly important spirituality is to humans. Humans didn't stop being spiritual when they found out they were wrong. If it were all fake and made up, stuff like that would have killed it stone dead. But nope... 95% of us still believe in something greater than self and about 5% do not. Same as it has been for 100k+ years.

Now present some goddamn science evidence that contradicts this or stop pretending it has been refuted.

You have conveniently forgotten that you have never offered any legitimate evidence to support your cliches' and slogans for ".....95%", "......100,000 years", and your ".....intrinsic....." memes.

"....because I say so" is hardly a convincing argument.

 

[sealybobo]

Psychology is the scientific evidence why we invented god. Hell you are evidence. They thought like you. They/you invented god. You're a caveman.

So what evidence did Adam and eve have a god existed?

Remember they thought the universe revolved around them because the earth wasn't moving. They knew we were the center of it all. We know better now. At least I do.

Nonsense. Psychology is evidence we couldn't have created Spirituality. I'm not a caveman, I didn't invent God, nor did my thoughts. When are you going to produce some fucking evidence? Stop dancing around trying to be cute and present your evidence if you have any. If you don't have evidence, admit that you don't. See.. we go through this about every week, you'll say something stupid you can't back up with evidence and I call you out on it, but then you start changing the subject, dancing around, distracting and diverting, dodging the request for evidence. All your buddies line up and give you thanks and thumbs up, and I guess that means something to you?

Why are you changing the subject away from human spirituality and back to Adam and Eve? The Adam and Eve story is maybe 4-6k years old, human spirituality is over 100k years old. Adam and Eve could be a metaphor or allegory and nothing to do with a real event and real people. It does not matter because that's not when people began being spiritual. I'm not here to defend stories from the Bible, I don't know if any of them are true or not. All religions are invented by man, human spirituality is not.

Yes... People once believed the Earth was center of the universe, and perhaps their spirituality was somewhat responsible for that line of thinking? But what you are saying should demonstrate how profoundly important spirituality is to humans. Humans didn't stop being spiritual when they found out they were wrong. If it were all fake and made up, stuff like that would have killed it stone dead. But nope... 95% of us still believe in something greater than self and about 5% do not. Same as it has been for 100k+ years.

Now present some goddamn science evidence that contradicts this or stop pretending it has been refuted.

When I say Adam and eve I mean the first humans. Now go back and answer the question without adding rhetoric.

 

[sealybobo]

Psychology is the scientific evidence why we invented god. Hell you are evidence. They thought like you. They/you invented god. You're a caveman.

So what evidence did Adam and eve have a god existed?

Remember they thought the universe revolved around them because the earth wasn't moving. They knew we were the center of it all. We know better now. At least I do.

Nonsense. Psychology is evidence we couldn't have created Spirituality. I'm not a caveman, I didn't invent God, nor did my thoughts. When are you going to produce some fucking evidence? Stop dancing around trying to be cute and present your evidence if you have any. If you don't have evidence, admit that you don't. See.. we go through this about every week, you'll say something stupid you can't back up with evidence and I call you out on it, but then you start changing the subject, dancing around, distracting and diverting, dodging the request for evidence. All your buddies line up and give you thanks and thumbs up, and I guess that means something to you?

Why are you changing the subject away from human spirituality and back to Adam and Eve? The Adam and Eve story is maybe 4-6k years old, human spirituality is over 100k years old. Adam and Eve could be a metaphor or allegory and nothing to do with a real event and real people. It does not matter because that's not when people began being spiritual. I'm not here to defend stories from the Bible, I don't know if any of them are true or not. All religions are invented by man, human spirituality is not.

Yes... People once believed the Earth was center of the universe, and perhaps their spirituality was somewhat responsible for that line of thinking? But what you are saying should demonstrate how profoundly important spirituality is to humans. Humans didn't stop being spiritual when they found out they were wrong. If it were all fake and made up, stuff like that would have killed it stone dead. But nope... 95% of us still believe in something greater than self and about 5% do not. Same as it has been for 100k+ years.

Now present some goddamn science evidence that contradicts this or stop pretending it has been refuted.

God of the gaps.

And psychological evidence explains why fearful humans invented god.

 

[sealybobo]

Psychology is a science.

 

[Boss]

When I say Adam and eve I mean the first humans. Now go back and answer the question without adding rhetoric.

There was no rhetoric added. You asked me a question about Adam and Eve. First of all, I don't believe Adam and Eve were the first humans and I don't believe the Bible says they were. Some may draw that interpretation, but the Bible doesn't say it. I have always believed the story is symbolic of how God enlightened man with spiritual awareness. Whether it is true or not is totally irrelevant to me. I'm not here to defend it either way.

Now you pretend that you were asking about the first humans and accuse me of adding rhetoric! You got a lot of fucking nerve, boob! Why didn't you ask the damn question without the rhetoric if that's what you wanted?

I don't know anything about the first humans. As far back as we've found civilizations of humans, we see evidence of spirituality. We know the first Neanderthals were not spiritual and didn't form civilizations or create and invent tools and such. For a time, they coexisted with homo sapiens who were spiritual, formed civilizations and invented tools. There is even some evidence the Neanderthals attempted to mimic this behavior toward the end, but it was too late to save their species.

You're asking me the impossible question of where and how did it all start... well, how did humans learn to breathe air and have lungs instead of gills? See, there is not a simple answer one can present on a message board for this question... it is far too complex. I imagine, at some point, some of our ancestors realized there was something greater than self which they could be inspired by to do the impossible. The realization they could achieve things they didn't believe they could, was a confirmation to them that something more powerful was a factor.

 

[Boss]

God of the gaps.

And psychological evidence explains why fearful humans invented god.

And I have been through this argument with you before. I have a degree in Psychology.

What you are presenting is an opinion. There is absolutely NO psychological evidence to support this opinion. NONE... NADDA!

As a matter of fact, this opinion actually contradicts everything we know about animal psychology in nature. No other animal or life form has ever created a behavior out of fear that was totally superficial and irrational based on imagination. It simply doesn't happen in nature. And IF it happened, it certainly wouldn't be effective unless there was something to it.

You see, from a purely philosophical standpoint, any "reasons" you come up with for man "inventing" spirituality, it must have been effective, we kept the attribute. How can something imaginary and superficial ward off fear effectively? Does belief in something that isn't real sound like it would work to protect you from whatever you fear? Any example in nature where this is the case? Any other animals using imagination as defense?