CDZ Have you Read Cicero?

[impuretrash]

Which history? The sanitized, woke, PC version or the real one?

The real one. I would suggest you read Cicero in his original Latin, but I doubt you have that ability. There are good translations though. Read those.

You *doubt* that he can read Latin?

roflmao

How fluent in latin do you figure president Trump is?

 

[skye]

Not Cicero but Plato

Plato and Atlantis ....my friends

 

[JimBowie1958]

Not Cicero but Plato

Plato and Atlantis ....my friends

Atlantis....do you mean Aristotle?

I have never head of a writer named Atlantis.

I like Plato and Aristotle too.

 

[skye]

Not Cicero but Plato

Plato and Atlantis ....my friends

Atlantis....do you mean Aristotle?

I have never head of a writer named Atlantis.

I like Plato and Aristotle too.

heheheh no I mean Plato and Atlantis

those who gave the Egyptian culture all their knowledge....

I mean Plato and Atlantis

 

[JimBowie1958]

heheheh no I mean Plato and Atlantis
those who gave the Egyptian culture all their knowledge....
I mean Plato and Atlantis

Am I having an Aspergers Moment?

 

[alang1216]

If they were so persecuted by medieval Christians why did the Jews not just assimilate into the dominant culture and save themselves some trouble?

Why don't you?

 

[JimBowie1958]

If they were so persecuted by medieval Christians why did the Jews not just assimilate into the dominant culture and save themselves some trouble?

Why don't you?

There's the rub.

Such conformity is always easier for other people to do, as seen by yet other people from the first group, lol.

 

[Circe]

[ Anti semitism doesn't rear its ugly head till the 2nd or 3rd century A.D. depending on who you reference.

Ummmmmmm….don't forget the Jewish Rebellion and Masada, about 70--74 AD. But Cicero was over a century earlier than that. It is interesting that some traits have been conserved all these millennia.

 

[westwall]

[ Anti semitism doesn't rear its ugly head till the 2nd or 3rd century A.D. depending on who you reference.

Ummmmmmm….don't forget the Jewish Rebellion and Masada, about 70--74 AD. But Cicero was over a century earlier than that. It is interesting that some traits have been conserved all these millennia.

What about Masada? The Jews were defending their homeland against an invader.

How can you possibly consider that analogous?

 

[Circe]

[ Anti semitism doesn't rear its ugly head till the 2nd or 3rd century A.D. depending on who you reference.

Ummmmmmm….don't forget the Jewish Rebellion and Masada, about 70--74 AD. But Cicero was over a century earlier than that. It is interesting that some traits have been conserved all these millennia.

What about Masada? The Jews were defending their homeland against an invader.

How can you possibly consider that analogous?

Well, I'd say the Romans felt they were experiencing some trouble with the Jews, considering they invaded in force, demolished the main synagogue, and killed all the rebels on Masada. If you don't consider that antisemitism, I don't know what you would think was antisemitism. And it was a lot before the 2nd or 3rd century. It sounds as if antisemitism did indeed start about the time the Romans took over Jerusalem, much earlier. I had never heard that quotation.

 

[Zebra]

Apparently he was very influential with the Enlightenment era writers, Locke, Kirk, Adams and all theose white dudes, which in turn made them popular among the Founding Fathers.

Here are a few quotations from that dead white guy:

“Never injure a friend, even in jest.”

“Friendship improves happiness and abates misery, by the doubling of our joy and the dividing of our grief.”

“The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living.”

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.'”

“If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.”

“Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century:
Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others;
Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected;
Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it;
Refusing to set aside trivial preferences;
Neglecting development and refinement of the mind;
Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.”

“Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself.”

“The pursuit, even of the best things, ought to be calm and tranquil.”

“Read at every wait; read at all hours; read within leisure; read in times of labor; read as one goes in; read as one goes out. The task of the educated mind is simply put: read to lead.”

“It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.”

“Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”

“Knowledge which is divorced from justice, may be called cunning rather than wisdom.”

“Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.”

“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”

“The study and knowledge of the universe would somehow be lame and defective were no practical results to follow.”

“Extreme justice is extreme injustice.”​

he was a wise man!

 

[georgephillip]

Apparently he was very influential with the Enlightenment era writers, Locke, Kirk, Adams and all theose white dudes, which in turn made them popular among the Founding Fathers.

Here are a few quotations from that dead white guy:

“Never injure a friend, even in jest.”​

​

“Friendship improves happiness and abates misery, by the doubling of our joy and the dividing of our grief.”​

​

“The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living.”​

​

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.'”​

​

“If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.”​

​

“Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century:​

Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others;​

Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected;​

Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it;​

Refusing to set aside trivial preferences;​

Neglecting development and refinement of the mind;​

Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.”​

​

“Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself.”​

​

“The pursuit, even of the best things, ought to be calm and tranquil.”​

​

“Read at every wait; read at all hours; read within leisure; read in times of labor; read as one goes in; read as one goes out. The task of the educated mind is simply put: read to lead.”​

​

“It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.”​

​

“Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”​

​

“Knowledge which is divorced from justice, may be called cunning rather than wisdom.”​

​

“Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.”​

​

“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”​

​

“The study and knowledge of the universe would somehow be lame and defective were no practical results to follow.”​

​

“Extreme justice is extreme injustice.”​

Here's another side of Cicero:

Origins of debt: Michael Hudson reveals how financial oligarchies in Greece & Rome shaped our world - Geopolitical Economy Report

"...Cicero was exiled for murdering politicians who he didn’t like in violation of Roman law. Even Roman law, with its assassinations, did not permit the murder of people who didn’t agree with him.

"From his exile, right after Caesar was assassinated, Cicero wrote to the senators who killed him, he was so sorry that he was not there that he could not plunge another knife into Julius Caesar.

"So that’s where he stood.

"And finally the heirs of Caesar, when there was a civil war after Caesar was killed, hunted down Cicero, who had his own army trying to take over Italy.

"They seized him in the army and they beheaded him.

"They finally put him to death."

Cicero was a champion of creditors who was willing to murder anyone who challenged the richest oligarchs in Rome.

 

[Libby von H]

Apparently he was very influential with the Enlightenment era writers, Locke, Kirk, Adams and all theose white dudes, which in turn made them popular among the Founding Fathers.

Here are a few quotations from that dead white guy:

“Never injure a friend, even in jest.”​

​

“Friendship improves happiness and abates misery, by the doubling of our joy and the dividing of our grief.”​

​

“The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living.”​

​

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.'”​

​

“If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.”​

​

“Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century:​

Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others;​

Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected;​

Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it;​

Refusing to set aside trivial preferences;​

Neglecting development and refinement of the mind;​

Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.”​

​

“Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself.”​

​

“The pursuit, even of the best things, ought to be calm and tranquil.”​

​

“Read at every wait; read at all hours; read within leisure; read in times of labor; read as one goes in; read as one goes out. The task of the educated mind is simply put: read to lead.”​

​

“It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.”​

​

“Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”​

​

“Knowledge which is divorced from justice, may be called cunning rather than wisdom.”​

​

“Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.”​

​

“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”​

​

“The study and knowledge of the universe would somehow be lame and defective were no practical results to follow.”​

​

“Extreme justice is extreme injustice.”​

 

[Libby von H]

Apparently he was very influential with the Enlightenment era writers, Locke, Kirk, Adams and all theose white dudes, which in turn made them popular among the Founding Fathers.

Here are a few quotations from that dead white guy:

“Never injure a friend, even in jest.”​

​

“Friendship improves happiness and abates misery, by the doubling of our joy and the dividing of our grief.”​

​

“The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living.”​

​

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.'”​

​

“If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.”​

​

“Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century:​

Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others;​

Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected;​

Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it;​

Refusing to set aside trivial preferences;​

Neglecting development and refinement of the mind;​

Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.”​

​

“Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself.”​

​

“The pursuit, even of the best things, ought to be calm and tranquil.”​

​

“Read at every wait; read at all hours; read within leisure; read in times of labor; read as one goes in; read as one goes out. The task of the educated mind is simply put: read to lead.”​

​

“It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.”​

​

“Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”​

​

“Knowledge which is divorced from justice, may be called cunning rather than wisdom.”​

​

“Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.”​

​

“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”​

​

“The study and knowledge of the universe would somehow be lame and defective were no practical results to follow.”​

​

“Extreme justice is extreme injustice.”​

Here is the amazing thing

There are 3,706 citations or quotations in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Of these, all but one are citations to or quotations from Christian sources--to Scripture, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, Conciliar Documents, Papal Encyclicals, the Liturgy, the wisdom of the Saints.
AND CICERO IS THE ONLY ONLY ONLY QUOTATION OUT 3706 that is not Christian . That quotation is found in § 1956 of the Catechism, where the Catechism treats of the natural law. The Catechism states:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.

 

[Moonglow]

Apparently he was very influential with the Enlightenment era writers, Locke, Kirk, Adams and all theose white dudes, which in turn made them popular among the Founding Fathers.

Here are a few quotations from that dead white guy:

“Never injure a friend, even in jest.”​

​

“Friendship improves happiness and abates misery, by the doubling of our joy and the dividing of our grief.”​

​

“The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living.”​

​

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.'”​

​

“If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.”​

​

“Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century:​

Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others;​

Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected;​

Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it;​

Refusing to set aside trivial preferences;​

Neglecting development and refinement of the mind;​

Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.”​

​

“Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself.”​

​

“The pursuit, even of the best things, ought to be calm and tranquil.”​

​

“Read at every wait; read at all hours; read within leisure; read in times of labor; read as one goes in; read as one goes out. The task of the educated mind is simply put: read to lead.”​

​

“It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.”​

​

“Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”​

​

“Knowledge which is divorced from justice, may be called cunning rather than wisdom.”​

​

“Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.”​

​

“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”​

​

“The study and knowledge of the universe would somehow be lame and defective were no practical results to follow.”​

​

“Extreme justice is extreme injustice.”​

Rome was built by crushing others.

 

[Libby von H]

You doubt that he can read Latin?

roflmao

The original Latin would do nothing to establish the pedigree of ideas reported in the abstract or the differing uses to which words like right and duty are being put.

 

[Libby von H]

The original Latin would do nothing to establish the pedigree of ideas reported in the abstract or the differing uses to which words like right and duty are being put.

So for example ratio recta

34 The usual translation of recta ratio is “right reason.” But ratio can mean “an account” of something,
rational or irrational. Moreover, recta can mean “correct,” and the Oxford English Dictionary
has the following as the primary meaning of the adjective “correct”: “In accordance with
an acknowledged or conventional standard, esp. of literary or artistic style, or of manners or
behaviour; proper.” Oxford English Dictionary , 2nd ed. (CD-ROM, version 4.0), s.v. “correct.”
Thus the phrase recta ratio is “as ambiguous as its components.” For that quotation and for the
general point, I am indebted to Robert C. Bartlett and Susan D. Collins, trans., Aristotle’s
Nicomachean Ethics (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 2011), 28 n. 4. Bartlett and Collins write
about the Greek phrase orthos logos (which they translate as “correct reason”), but the same is
true of the Latin.

 

[Libby von H]

Apparently they were up to their old tricks even in his day.

People groan in a combination of disgust/pity when you are too lazy 'apparently' to even substantiate your hate

 

[Zebra]

this guy is a treasure trove of wisdom and clarity.

A few more quotes:

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.

Politicians are not born; they are excreted.

When a government becomes powerful it is destructive, extravagant and violent; it is an usurer which takes bread from innocent mouths and deprives honorable men of their substance, for votes with which to perpetuate itself.

Never was a government that was not composed of liars, malefactors and thieves.

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.

Though liberty is established by law, we must be vigilant, for liberty to enslave us is always present under that very liberty. Our Constitution speaks of the "general welfare of the people." Under that phrase all sorts of excesses can be employed by lusting tyrants to make us bondsmen.

A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?

Poor is the nation that has no heroes, but poorer still is the nation that having heroes, fails to remember and honor them.

We learn nothing from history except that we learn nothing from history.

To be content with what we possess is the greatest and most secure of riches.​

modern!

 

[Carl in Michigan]

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself

Joe Biden and the entire Democrat Party