Hillary needs to burn in political hell...

[Jon]

Finally, I am not asking you to believe that Obama won the popular vote (although as I noted above, under your standards he probably did). I am just asking you to recognize that other reasonable people disagree with you (including political pundits, political blogs, the candidates, etc.). There are several reasonable approaches one could adopt.

As I noted above, the poll you alluded to is not accurate. The article you posted as a source actually further shows that Obama did NOT receive the number of votes he is being credited for.

Furthermore, your definition and my definition of reasonable apparently differ. Reasonable means it has validity, there is evidence to support it. There is no evidence to support Obama would have received the required number of votes in Michigan to pass Hillary in the popular vote. Nothing you have provided so far suggests such, and in the hundreds of articles I've read in the past six months, neither has anything else.

Your position thus far has been that, regardless of the many people that disagree with you, your view is the only rationale view and any other view is biased and illogical. Do you recognize how much hubris this demonstrates?

Thus far, the rationale that Clinton won the popular vote is the only one with any weight. The claim that Obama has the popular vote has no substance. There are no statistical indicators of such, unless you throw out votes that were casts legally, which in and of itself is absurd.

 

[Jon]

It wasn't directed at you, you know. It was directed at jsanders who seems to have as his only mission, the delegitimizing of Barack Obama. So don't think I was in any way saying you shouldn't have responded as you wished.

I'm willing to cede the point that Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee. There's no argument otherwise. My argument is that more people voted for Hillary.

Luckily, I'm not a Democrat. So having Obama as their candidate doesn't really phase me. I'll just go with my second choice.

 

[MsWikia]

That's because you're illiterate. If you read the rest of that asterisk, it also says using any other estimates takes about 50,000 votes away from Obama. But sure, use whichever numbers make you feel comfortable.

And you're right, it shows Obama's count in Michigan blank. But if you look at the third set of numbers from the top, it says "Popular Vote (w/MI
Uncommitted to Obama)". Which basically is awarding Obama voters based on a flawed assumption that everyone who voted Uncommitted was really voting for Obama.

Either way, Clinton won the popular vote. There is no debate.

ONLY the highlighted yellow part of this page says Popular vote TOTAL, which means ALL the states are included right? where as the other estimated popular vote count doesn't include all of the states at once, such as IA, NV, ME, WA right?

Popular vote with MI before the uncommitted were counted (so 0 votes going to Obama b/c his name was not on the ballot) and including IA, NV, ME, WA- Hillary won

Popular vote with MI and the uncommitted included, along with IA, NV, ME, WA - Obama won

Popular vote TOTAL (with all of the states including MI, Fl, IA, NV, ME, WA) - Obama won



So how do you get from this, Hillary won the popular vote?? The ONLY way that she can claim the pop vote is if you give Obama ZERO votes from MI, which is unfair and inaccurate.

 

[Jon]

ONLY the highlighted yellow part of this page says Popular vote TOTAL, which means ALL the states are included right? where as the other estimated popular vote count doesn't include all of the states at once, such as IA, NV, ME, WA right?

Popular vote with MI before the uncommitted were counted (so 0 votes going to Obama b/c his name was not on the ballot) and including IA, NV, ME, WA- Hillary won

Popular vote with MI and the uncommitted included, along with IA, NV, ME, WA - Obama won

Popular vote TOTAL (with all of the states including MI, Fl, IA, NV, ME, WA) - Obama won

So how do you get from this, Hillary won the popular vote?? The ONLY way that she can claim the pop vote is if you give Obama ZERO votes from MI, which is unfair and inaccurate.

But it's fair and accurate to give him ALL the uncommitted votes from Michigan?

 

[MsWikia]

But it's fair and accurate to give him ALL the uncommitted votes from Michigan?

Doesn't matter, all you know is that those uncommitted were NOT for Hillary. Plus, Edwards endorsed him so his votes should go to him. IMO MI shouldn't even count since they did not play by the rules, who knows how many people did not get a chance to vote because of the mix up. (another primary in that state should have taken place)

 

[MsWikia]

Plus we aren't talking about fairness of the decisions made, we are talking about the final results, which shows that Obama won the popular vote when all of the states are counted.

 

[Care4all]

Clinton is stuck between a rock and a hard place and no one is even looking at it this way...

She is in the position of Gore with Bush, does she fight for what she believes is fair and just for the people of the United states based on their voices and votes....

Or let the people's votes and the integrity of our vote go unquestioned and she succumb to a loss that never happened legitimately and not contest for the winner's spot and walk away like Kerry did in 2004 where alot of Democrats were very upset with him for not contesting the results where voter fraud appeared rampant?

Right now, most Democrats are saying basically, that Gore should have just walked away, with the 500 votes that he was behind....and handed the 2000 election over to Bush.....

It's funny how this is NOT how I remember us feeling at the time....every vote cast counted.....NO MATTER WHAT....whether it was a dimple, or a hanging chad, no matter if timeline rules ran out, each vote was precious and discerned the will of the people in our Democracy.....

Well, I guess I have to admit that I was one of those fools that believed this and believed that my party believed it too and that my fellow democrats believed in what was fair and just also,

And I also thought that under any circumstance, all of the above Party members would fight for what they fought for in the bush gore race, under any circumstances, even if resulted in the opposition winning because this is how much "the people's vote" mattered.

BOY, was I naive.....

Care

 

[Care4all]

And another thing, without that speech of hers last night and her smoozing to her supporters and plug for Hillaryclinton.com for the 30 MILLION dollars her campaign is in debt,

The Obama camp according to precedent will have to pick up that TAB....that's alot of money for Obama and the DNC to have to set aside going in to the General so BE HAPPY for the way she handled that last night with her supporters and pray she got a bundle for it....

IF YOU REALLY KNOW what is best for Obama in the General imo....

Care

 

[Steerpike]

Care:

You're exaggerating things way too much. Hillary lost. A good part of the reason she lost is that she screwed up in planning her campaign. She was arrogant and thought she'd have it wrapped up by Super Tuesday. Didn't happen.

The other reason is proportional delegates. If the Dems had the same system the GOP had for awarding delegates in primaries, Hillary would be the nominee.

 

[MsWikia]

I agree Care. Every vote does matter, but nobody wanted to spend money or time to hold a new primary in these states where the votes were sketchy. People did not make a huge deal about Michigan or Florida right when it happened, everyone, our elected politicians/heads of the Dem party agreed they would just suffer the consequence of not having their delegates count.

If people protested, not just in Fl or MI but everywhere, then maybe we would have a more accurate account of the votes in Fl or MI. However, we don't, so we just have to go with what we have now, it's no sense in debating how unfair things appear now, it's too late for that.

 

[Ravi]

That isn't true. It's been a huge deal in Florida from the very beginning.

 

[MsWikia]

And another thing, without that speech of hers last night and her smoozing to her supporters and plug for Hillaryclinton.com for the 30 MILLION dollars her campaign is in debt,

The Obama camp according to precedent will have to pick up that TAB....that's alot of money for Obama and the DNC to have to set aside going in to the General so BE HAPPY for the way she handled that last night with her supporters and pray she got a bundle for it....

IF YOU REALLY KNOW what is best for Obama in the General imo....

Care

She is lucky that Obama HAS to pay her debt, with that attitude she should get nada.

 

[jillian]

She should be lucky that Obama has to pay her debt.

And he should be glad she's not out campaigning for McCain. So everybody's happy.

 

[MsWikia]

That isn't true. It's been a huge deal in Florida from the very beginning.

It needs to be a big deal to EVERYONE, not just people who live in FL. I think maybe more could have been done on a national level.

 

[Care4all]

Care:

You're exaggerating things way too much. Hillary lost. A good part of the reason she lost is that she screwed up in planning her campaign. She was arrogant and thought she'd have it wrapped up by Super Tuesday. Didn't happen.

The other reason is proportional delegates. If the Dems had the same system the GOP had for awarding delegates in primaries, Hillary would be the nominee.

i agree that she did not overwhelmingly win because of her campaign underestimating caucuses and the delegates that could be had from them verses the primary voter's votes and that she underestimated the power of the purse of people via the net, and a number of other things...

but this did not lead to a loss....this lead to a near tie when all is said and done....all the superdelegates have not voted yet,

and if the 59 delegates had not just been taken out of thin air and handed to him as pledged delegates from michigan... INSTEAD OF following michigan election law for uncommitted votes being unpledged delegates, where obama would have had to get them to pledge to him....of which i believe he had garnered 22 of them already to his side before the dnc decided to IGNORE the law and their own dnc rule and give them ALL as pledged, then when the elections were over last night, obama would still have NOT HAVE had enough delegates to win....a virtual tie with hillary slightly trailing....with the superdelegates deciding after the state primaries.

this is why the clinton camp reserved the right to bring this to the credential committee of the dnc....because of this decision of the rules and bylaws committee's move of changing the people's cast certified vote and dnc rules that were in play before the race began on uncommitted vote delegates....i think she wont do that....but it is an option of hers, everyone knows that, even obama.

she needs money, the obama camp will pick up her debt, presidential nominee winners sually do...she needs time to work her supporters for it and wind down from a 2 year very tedious campaign.

care

 

[Care4all]

they are stupid not to run on the same ticket....

republicans are pooping bricks thinking this could even be a possibility....

if dems unite, there is no race against mccain, our numbers united are overwelming, her weaknesses in states are his strengths and his weakness hers, when it comes to the electoral college....imo

 

[Jeepers]

And he should be glad she's not out campaigning for McCain. So everybody's happy.

Lol.. I wouldnt put it passed her... shes so brainwashed her people that they might just do that.... sad lot the whole of em actually... Should I start investing in wire hangers now..

 

[Jeepers]

they are stupid not to run on the same ticket....

republicans are pooping bricks thinking this could even be a possibility....

if dems unite, there is no race against mccain, our numbers united are overwelming, her weaknesses in states are his strengths and his weakness hers, when it comes to the electoral college....imo

Huh.. why would he do that.. doesnt "shuck and jive" [negative obscure racial slurr used by a clintonista] with his change program... Looking at McCain, I dont see how its going to be any kind of competitive race at all.... Please stop over emphasising the importance of Hill and her minions...

Oh... I dont want my monetary donations paying off hills poorly managed campaign... Case in point.. You tube debates in charleston.. I went to hills debate party which was a cushy convention room caterered with one hell of a spread and imported starbucks coffee... Obama had his party in the longshoremans building and had a truckload of dominos pizza brought in...hmm..

 

[Ravi]

doesnt "shuck and jive" [negative obscure racial slurr used by a clintonista]

Link, please.

 

[Zoomie1980]

they are stupid not to run on the same ticket....

republicans are pooping bricks thinking this could even be a possibility....

if dems unite, there is no race against mccain, our numbers united are overwelming, her weaknesses in states are his strengths and his weakness hers, when it comes to the electoral college....imo

Does anyone with a brain REALLY believe Obama wants to saddle himself with not one, but TWO, Clintons for the duration of his presidency? VP's essentially go to funerals....that's IT. They do NOTHING else. And the Obama's cannot stand the Clintons, especially Michelle. So if Hillary is the VP they will shut her away in the "Alternate Executive Office", an office next to the White House where the VP works, and nice house the Navy provides, she will almost NEVER even be allowed in the White House, much less even providing much input. And her hubby is a loose cannon now, running around Washington. All sorts of negative innuendo behind the scenes and constant pressure from both.

No, no way in HELL does Obama saddle himself with that albatros and no way would either Clinton agree to a traditional DO NOTHING VP office. They would expect a sort of power sharing agreeement with Obama and that WILL NOT HAPPEN