How can ONE group of people be so WRONG!!!

[Mad_Cabbie]

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What’s sad and telling is how the right considers any number of Americans without access to affordable healthcare somehow ‘acceptable.’

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Democrats are a cult, and Obama is like Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. It doesn't matter how insane the leader is, they HAVE to follow him

 

[CrusaderFrank]

If there were 47MM uninsured BEFORE Obamacare (period), there are now 53MM uninsured (period)

 

[Wry Catcher]

keep

Perhaps if you used more exclamation points in your thread titles and posts, someone would respond.

Now, now don't be harsh. The Echo Chamber has responded, or rather echoed each other in the posts above. "Ain't the PPACA awful" sums them up, and yet the act has yet to be fully implemented.

"If you like your plan, you can keep it. Period"

...keep it. Periodkeep it. Period...keep it. Period

 

[MACAULAY]

Healthmyths,

Here is my larger point about foreign labor (-and both parties are guilty here, especially Clinton).

Our largest employer - Walmart - gets over 50% of its goods made in places like Communist China, Taiwan etc. You can see this first hand by going into any Walmart. Read the labels on the T-shirts, Toasters, Coffee Makers, TVs, Towels, Blankets, Tools, Sneakers, Backpacks. It will blow your mind when you see the list of freedom hating nations that our largest retailer (and one of the biggest GOP donors) does business with.

But it gets worse. Your party has a massive message system which feeds guys like you with propaganda, so that you dutifully clog the public debate with half truths and distortions (in order to protect the corporations and wealthy people who fund elections and, in so doing, staff government). Your party - which is an appendage of the corporate take over democracy - provides major incentives to anyone who will manufacture data for their information war (so that they can convert government into a dynamic advocate of special interests -health care monopolies being chief among them).

Where do you think your party's large bullshit machine gets the funds to provide you with an endless stream of manufactured data? Answer: companies like Walmart have massive amounts of extra cash because of their partnership with places like Communist China who manufacturers their goods with workers who get $5/day and live in hovels. Your ability to spin these tales about how much you care about the American population - and its sanctity - is funded by special interests who are waging war against the American population by using those illegals or partnering with their host nation to undercut American labor. [It's a fucking Orwellian hoax and everybody knows it]

The story of post-Carter Capitalism is the story of how the American Private Sector took over Washington and waged war against the American worker. Your job is to defend those capitalists against Big Government. But you never, ever mention the partnerships that those capitalists and your party (by extension) has formed with freedom hating nations in order to destroy the American worker. Meaning: you and your party have used those illegals as a tool to impoverish a generation of Americans . . . all so the Waltons can realize dynastic wealth . . . as the country dies. It's a hoax.

..................................................................

1) The Labor Unions got greedy, real greedy...and priced themselves out of the market.

2) Only the rankest communist fool would tell me that my education, my experience, my opinions---my very values---are all formed by a propaganda machine operated by Walmart.

I must tell you sir. You appear to be the most dangerously unstable poster on this board, excepting perhaps rdean. I don't believe even The Gollum in the White House would openly spout such nonsense.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Healthmyths,

Here is my larger point about foreign labor (-and both parties are guilty here, especially Clinton).

Our largest employer - Walmart - gets over 50% of its goods made in places like Communist China, Taiwan etc. You can see this first hand by going into any Walmart. Read the labels on the T-shirts, Toasters, Coffee Makers, TVs, Towels, Blankets, Tools, Sneakers, Backpacks. It will blow your mind when you see the list of freedom hating nations that our largest retailer (and one of the biggest GOP donors) does business with.

But it gets worse. Your party has a massive message system which feeds guys like you with propaganda, so that you dutifully clog the public debate with half truths and distortions (in order to protect the corporations and wealthy people who fund elections and, in so doing, staff government). Your party - which is an appendage of the corporate take over democracy - provides major incentives to anyone who will manufacture data for their information war (so that they can convert government into a dynamic advocate of special interests -health care monopolies being chief among them).

Where do you think your party's large bullshit machine gets the funds to provide you with an endless stream of manufactured data? Answer: companies like Walmart have massive amounts of extra cash because of their partnership with places like Communist China who manufacturers their goods with workers who get $5/day and live in hovels. Your ability to spin these tales about how much you care about the American population - and its sanctity - is funded by special interests who are waging war against the American population by using those illegals or partnering with their host nation to undercut American labor. [It's a fucking Orwellian hoax and everybody knows it]

The story of post-Carter Capitalism is the story of how the American Private Sector took over Washington and waged war against the American worker. Your job is to defend those capitalists against Big Government. But you never, ever mention the partnerships that those capitalists and your party (by extension) has formed with freedom hating nations in order to destroy the American worker. Meaning: you and your party have used those illegals as a tool to impoverish a generation of Americans . . . all so the Waltons can realize dynastic wealth . . . as the country dies. It's a hoax.

..................................................................

1) The Labor Unions got greedy, real greedy...and priced themselves out of the market.

2) Only the rankest communist fool would tell me that my education, my experience, my opinions---my very values---are all formed by a propaganda machine operated by Walmart.

I must tell you sir. You appear to be the most dangerously unstable poster on this board, excepting perhaps rdean. I don't believe even The Gollum in the White House would openly spout such nonsense.

Only those ignorant of current events and recent history are still echoing the RED SCARE. If Labor Unions are greedy how does one see corporate executive management with their multi million dollar salaries and stock option? How does one characterized those who store their 'extra' cash in foreign securities to avoid paying taxes? Or what of the callous conservatives who begrudge paying a few more pennies in taxes to help the poor?

Only those who consumed the propaganda of the far right, paid for by the Plutocrats, would post such drivel as did the poster, macaulay

 

[Londoner]

..................................................................

1) The Labor Unions got greedy, real greedy...and priced themselves out of the market.

False. No American workforce could compete with labor markets making $5/day - unionized or not. For an American worker to compete for these jobs, he would have to live under a bridge and eat dog food. Meaning: those jobs would not come back even without unions. You're recycling tired talking points that have no bearing on the discussion. And you're using the same red baiting garbage by calling me a communist, which I'm not. I believe in markets and private property, but I think the state has a role to play in regulating those markets to protect the consumer from monopolies and special interests; and I think that underreported issues like Free Trade or Reagan's dismantling of the Sherman Act should be covered by FOX News so that folks like yourself can become more literate about the complicated problems between Capital and Labor, especially regarding the globalization of production. I'm a far cry from Marx, who didn't believe in markets or private property. [You really need to stop using the same tired talking points and ad homonym attacks in every argument]

2) Only the rankest communist fool would tell me that my education, my experience, my opinions---my very values---are all formed by a propaganda machine operated by Walmart.

I didn't say the propaganda machine was operated by Walmart. This is a lie which reflects more on your character than my post. I explained that Walmart was part of a special interest machine which funds your politicians, think tanks and media sources. This happens on both sides, obviously. Your news sources are given massive incentives to destroy the government's ability to tax (yet the corporations which fund those news sources rely heavily on the government's ability to tax because this is where they get their subsidies and bailouts. Do you understand the point of lobbying? The fact that you don't see this hoax is why I think you are so deeply inserted within the warm confines of Movement Conservatism's ideology). Meaning: there is a reason why you can't provide a comprehensive list of the things that your taxes pay for - and it's partly because your trusted media universe has given you a very limited narrative.

Here is how you know that your brain has been captured by a propaganda machine. (Please try to follow me through a couple of steps.) Your side constantly tells us about the dangers of Big Government Intervention in the economy. We've heard it all before (and I agree with a lot of it). Government bureaucrats lack the information and incentives to (say) set prices, which can only be done effectively by the rational incentives of suppliers and consumers. Meaning: rational consumers know best what they want, so let their rationally informed consumption habits determine what the capitalist produces, and make sure to let the profit motive of the supplier determine the most efficient way to deliver what the consumer wants. Meaning: don't impose punitive taxes on the supplier because this will only drain his incentive and capacity to provide the best deal for consumers. (We get it. I'm hoping you studied this stuff too, and you're not just repeating Hannity cliches without understanding what you're saying, but let's continue !

If a government bureaucrat, driven by a desire to help workers, forces companies to raise wages and/or provide health care, than those corporations will be forced to lay-off workers. Meaning: government intervention often hurts the very people it tries to help. Same thing with Keynesian stimulus which inflates away the very economic growth it was designed to stimulate. Which is to say, many of the stories which you have been fed are true. I have a dog-eared copy of Milton Friedman's "Capitalism and Freedom" in my library, and I happen to think the man was a genius, as was Hayek. But you need to treat your stories less like a religion (see blind obedience) and take more of an analytical or critical relationship to the talking points you've been given. Let's start now.

Take government intervention, which your side is always talking about in truly simplistic ways. You see sonny boy, government intervention works both ways. How much have your information sources told you about the Patent system? Or the subsidy system? Why can't you speak to how these things constitute major interventions in the market? How much do your information sources speak about government protected monopolies or government funded/provided satellites that underlie telecom profits? The private profit system relies heavily on the nanny state. Why don't you know this? Who do you think protects the private sector's oil fields in the Middle East? Or, what about global capitalism more generally, where American corporations require access to foreign markets, raw materials and labor markets? Who do you think protects these supply chains or provides the legal infrastructure to make it happen? Do you know what the administrative and military costs are of running/protecting the global system and making sure (say) oil is priced in dollars rather than Euros? Business draws heavily on the State to protect its global interests, yet you know none of it - (and you don't think you're the victim of propaganda)? Or what about the amount of money Boeing (and its investors) have been given through the Pentagon Budget? Do your news sources talk about the degree to which the costs of developing commercial aviation have been socialized while the profits remain fully privatized? Study the history of Boeing and how much money it received from the State Sector, which funded it because of its military applications. You need to understand the degree to which profit makers are tied to the State before you start to even make sense of the "Government Intervention" debate. The cliches and caricatures you've been given are not working.

You have to do a better job studying all this stuff. Stop using silly talking points about communists and study how much business gets from the state, and how much they invest in your opinion. You can do better.

 

[RDD_1210]

I've asked this so many times but NOT one person that supports ACA has yet refuted the biggest LIE that was told and continues to be told regarding how
many people are truly uninsured!

Perhaps if you used more exclamation points in your thread titles and posts, someone would respond.

How many times can you possibly post the same shit over and over and over again that continues to be debunked and you continue to ignore.

Now that's the kind of response we've come to expect from the Progressive Left. The specificity with which you refute the claim, the logic and reason used to support your position. All very impressive...

Cue the ad hominen attack, non sequitur, or straw man argument...or heck, just call everyone a racist and be done with it.

That's right... Be proud of your regressive ignorance.

 

[Vox]

they just follow their teacher Goebbels

 

[Kosh]

The far left is almost always wrong, but they will never own up to it. Until they grow up this country is doomed.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

keep

Now, now don't be harsh. The Echo Chamber has responded, or rather echoed each other in the posts above. "Ain't the PPACA awful" sums them up, and yet the act has yet to be fully implemented.

"If you like your plan, you can keep it. Period"

...keep it. Periodkeep it. Period...keep it. Period

Your cult leader lied. Period

 

[BobPlumb]

I've asked this so many times but NOT one person that supports ACA has yet refuted the biggest LIE that was told and continues to be told regarding how
many people are truly uninsured!

Perhaps if you used more exclamation points in your thread titles and posts, someone would respond.

...........................................................

Punctuation smack is the last desperate dodge of one who has no answer to the proposition.

I have never understood it. Seems you would be better off to not respond, and then you could pretend you did not read that which you have no answer for.

You ended a sentence with a preposition. Prepare to be insulted by the grammar police!

 

[MACAULAY]

..................................................................

1) The Labor Unions got greedy, real greedy...and priced themselves out of the market.

False. No American workforce could compete with labor markets making $5/day - unionized or not. For an American worker to compete for these jobs, he would have to live under a bridge and eat dog food. Meaning: those jobs would not come back even without unions. You're recycling tired talking points that have no bearing on the discussion. And your using the same red baiting garbage by calling me a communist, which I'm not. I believe in markets and private property, but I think the state has a role to play in regulating those markets to protect the consumer from monopolies and special interests; and I think that issues from Free Trade to Reagan's dismantling of the Sherman Act should be covered by FOX News so that folks like yourself become more literate in these issues. Im a far cry from Marx, who didn't believe in markets or private property. [You really need to stop using the same tired talking points and ad homonym attacks in every argument]

2) Only the rankest communist fool would tell me that my education, my experience, my opinions---my very values---are all formed by a propaganda machine operated by Walmart.

I didn't say the propaganda machine was operated by Walmart. This is a lie which reflects more on your character than my post. I explained that Walmart was part of a special interest machine which funds your politicians, think tanks and media sources. This happens on both sides, obviously. Your news sources are given massive incentives to destroy the government's ability to tax (yet the corporations which fund those news sources rely heavily on the government's ability to tax because this is where they get their subsidies and bailouts. Do you understand the point of lobbying? The fact that you don't see this hoax is why I think you are so deeply inserted within the warm confines of Movement Conservatism's ideology). Meaning: there is a reason why you can't provide a comprehensive list of the things that your taxes pay for - and it's partly because your trusted media universe has given you a very limited narrative.

Here is how you know that your brain has been captured by a propaganda machine. (Please try to follow me through a couple of steps.) Your side constantly tells us about the dangers of Big Government Intervention in the economy. We've heard it all before (and I agree with a lot of it). Government bureaucrats lack the information and incentives to (say) set prices, which can only be done effectively by the unimpeded laws of supply and demand. Rational consumers know best what they want, so let their rationally informed consumption habits determine what the capitalist produces and what it costs. Moreover, if a government bureaucrat, driven by a desire to help workers, forces companies to raise wages and/or provide health care, than those corporations will be forced to lay-off workers. Meaning: government intervention often hurts the very people it tries to help. Same thing with Keynesian stimulus which inflates away the very economic growth it was designed to stimulate. Which is to say, many of the stories which you are fed are true. I have a dog-eared copy of Milton Friedman's "Capitalism and Freedom" in my library, and I happen to think the man was a genius, as was Hayek.

But here's the problem. Government intervention and destroying the efficiency of markets works both ways. How much have your information sources told you about the Patent system? Or the subsidy system? Why can't you speak to how these things constitute major interventions in the market? How much do your information sources speak about government protected monopolies or government funded/provided satellites that underlie telecom profits. The private profit system is deeply tied to the nanny State, and relies on it heavily. Who do you think protects the private sector's oil fields in the Middle East? Or, what about global capitalism more generally, where American corporations require access to foreign markets, raw materials and labor markets? Who do you think protects these supply chains or provides the legal infrastructure to make it happen? Do you know what the administrative and military costs are of running/protecting the global system and making sure (say) oil is priced in dollars rather than Euros? Business draws heavily on the State to protect its global interests, yet you know none of it - (and you don't think you're the victim of propaganda)? Or what about the amount of money Boeing (and its investors) have been given through the Pentagon Budget? Do your news sources talk about the degree to which the costs of developing commercial aviation have been socialized while the profits remain fully privatized? Study the history of Boeing and how much money it received from the State Sector, which funded it because of its military applications. You need to understand the degree to which profit makers are tied to the State before you start to even make sense of the "Government Intervention" debate. The cliches and caricatures you've been given are not working.

You have to do a better job studying all this stuff. Stop using silly talking points about communists and study how much business gets from the state, and how much they invest in your opinion. You can do better.

..................................................................

Salma Hayek? The tits are spectacular. I didn't know she was a genius too.

Now, you are repeating like a parrot the talking points from the loon in the White House--"You didn't built that". "your "news sources" are more proficient dispensers of propaganda than Walmart could ever be.

Everybody going back to Jefferson recognizes the need for the central government in some matters. Interstate highways. And the military has been protecting foreign trade since Jefferson sent the Navy to chase off some Barbary Pirates who were harassing Yankee merchant ships. A few things are truly for the common good.

But these are not precedents for going 17 trillion in debt to buy votes, which is what has been going on since The Great Society and has greatly accelerated in the last 5 years.

We just live in different worlds. And they've been different for a long time...in this country, back to Adams and Jefferson...and really in the old country back to the Braveheart and the Bruce and Bannockburn.

You can have the last word. Getting through all that tripe was like work. But, its good to know Salma Hayek is a genius.

 

[Londoner]

You can have the last word. Getting through all that tripe was like work. But, its good to know Salma Hayek is a genius.

No offense intended.

I'm guessing you were just kidding, but Friedrich Hayek penned "The Road to Serfdom", which is one of the most intellectually rigorous defenses of markets and private property, especially in their relationship to political freedom.

Here is condensed version.

http://www.cblpi.org/ftp/Econ/RoadtoSerfdom_ReadersDigest_and_Cartoon_Versions.pdf

 

[Flopper]

I've asked this so many times but NOT one person that supports ACA has yet refuted the biggest LIE that was told and continues to be told regarding how
many people are truly uninsured!

THE facts are
The census says 10 million of Obama's 46 million are not CITIZENS! So do you supporters of ACA want illegal aliens to be covered?
The Census says 14 million people living at a poverty level said they were uninsured.. MEDICAID covers them... they just don't know it!!!
Finally since when is it a valid inclusion of people in the UNINSURED category that don't WANT insurance! They don't NEED it even though they can afford it!

SO why are these 42 million people still counted as the 46 million "uninsured"???

Because the LIE had to be told so single payer health insurance would come about!

BUT these same idiots that brought us the law piously included tanning salons as tanning causes skin cancer.. they tax 10%... YET
NOT ONE mention of the $850 billion that doctors say they bill insurance companies and Medicare BECAUSE THEY FEAR LAWSUITS!
NOT one mention of taxing 10% of lawyers $270 billion as a direct cause of the $850 billion! WHY???

Finally NOT ONE MENTION that hospitals 'pad and pass' on uninsured expenses sometimes billing the payers 6,000% markups over costs to absorb costs!
In other words all you people paying premiums to insurance companies ARE PAYING to eliminate FEAR of lawsuits!

So in one solution...
Take the $27 billion and pay the premiums for the 4 million truly means tested as not Medicaid but need insurance!
Then when hospital sees an UNINSURED... bill is sent to the insurance company managing the UNINSURED!

NO problems... lowering $850 billion "defensive medicine" and disallowing the 'pad and pass' of the uninsured.. REDUCES the companies/Medicare costs!

So AGAIN why can't you supporters do just simply math.. i.e. subtract 42 million from 46 million and USE the number 4 million as truly the UNINSURED!!!

If they are uninsured, they are uninsured regardless of the reason.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

See the below links to prove the fact less then 4 million truly uninsured!

10 million illegals: Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2009 - Income & Wealth - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau
14 million eligible http://coverageforall.org/pdf/BC-BS_Uninsured-America.pdf
18 million don't want:CRISIS OF THE UNINSURED: 2009

What happens to an illegal alien when they get sick now? Where do they go?

Since they cannot be denied service in an ER I'll give you three guesses.

Since they cannot pay their bill I'll give you three more guesses who ends up paying.

OK, skip the illegal aliens.

When an uninsured U.S. citizen gets sick where do they go?

Since they cannot be denied service in an ER I'll give you three guesses.

Since they cannot pay their bill I'll give you three more guesses who ends up paying.

Do I hear an echo?

How many more times will this be explained before they finally GET IT?

Those with a brain can answer that in one guess.

Hint for the rw's - Joe Wilson lied.

Really funny is that they hate brown people and yet they're just fine with Dems paying for their live births AND their abortions.

And, yes, its the Dems who pay because the rw's are in the same line at the emergency room to get their free care.

 

[Londoner]

I think the big problem is the amount of money that health insurance monopolies poured into Washington to create a terribly anti-competitive market, one that can't be fixed as long as the market is run by and for the parasitic "administrative" layer that sits between doctor and patient.

We need a competitive market in health care. Competitive markets (like telecom to an extent) can result in affordable pricing and broad consumer inclusion, but monopolies raise prices without fear of being disciplined by market competition. Health Care premiums have risen at 5x the rate of inflation because - for instance - congress is owned by pharmaceutical companies who take advantage of nanny state patent protection enabling them to charge the world's highest drug prices. By so doing, these companies bestow dynastic wealth on a handful of investors while bankrupting average consumers. The more monopolies that you build over the consumer, the less he can consume, and the more he relies on credit/debt just to stay afloat - and the more the economy is exposed to a system destroying credit freeze (2008) . Starting in 1980 (to make up for the war on labor) more and more of our economic growth was fueled by an expansion of credit (debt) - Meaning: as wages froze or went down, credit became necessary.

We started to see a proliferation of mega-mergers in the 80s when Reagan stopped enforcing the Sherman Act and Anti-trust laws, and Clinton basically doubled down on this to tap into big business money (because the Reagan Revolution effectively destroyed the primary democrat funding source, Labor). We witnessed rampant monopolization as corporations bought each-other (merged) so they didn't have to compete. They joined forces against consumers to avoid having to lower prices (that is, they retained consumers by merging, which meant the consumer didn't have the option of going to a lower priced competitor). And now too many domestic sectors are dominated by monopolies which are fleecing consumers . . . who are finally too indebted to consume. This is one of the big flaws of unregulated capitalism. Its desire for lower production costs (including lower labor costs) eventually destroys the worker's purchasing power (which is needed for economic growth). When wages are not high enough to sustain demand, the problem is temporarily "fixed" by an expansion of credit . . . until consumers, in the aggregate, are too indebted to consume. This is where we are now. The capitalist is not going to raise wages (partly because he has no consumers), and the consumer is too indebted to borrow enough to consume at levels needed for Capital to start adding jobs or raising wages. Game over.

 

[rdean]

This is as stupid as Republicans on the USMB insisting illegals get food stamps and welfare. Are they lying or stupid? Does it matter which?

 

[healthmyths]

I've asked this so many times but NOT one person that supports ACA has yet refuted the biggest LIE that was told and continues to be told regarding how
many people are truly uninsured!

Perhaps if you used more exclamation points in your thread titles and posts, someone would respond.

picky-nitty... Is YOUR MAJOR contribution????
Are so f...king dumb that you can't do simple subtraction?
OF course you are ! You are an Obama supporter gullible, ignorant and ignoring the biggest lie ever told and the disaster that is coming..
And you are bent out of shape about !!!!