How is the average street gang really that different than the Irish fian or Germanic Männerbund?

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Okay, they're a dysfunctional expression of that cultural structure, but they're still an expression of it... aren't they? I mean, young men leaving civilized society to form quasi-fascist subcultures and engage in endemic warfare with each other as practice for the real thing isn't exactly a new idea. It's simply become unacceptable with our culture's permanent turn away from tribal agrarian life.

... I just realized this is bound to make no sense to a lot of people here. Basically Western culture ultimately derives from that of a small number of semi-nomadic tribes that wandered ancient Anatolia and the Near East. These peoples are collectively called the Indo-Europeans. As they expanded and differentiated from each other they became various new groups, such as the Greeks, French, English, and basically most of the Americas. Their original culture was a fairly violent pastoral one with a polytheistic faith based around Sky Father and a strong tradition of tribal infighting. That latter part is what's important here. Every young member of their warrior class* organized themselves into a koryos - a warrior band. The koryos would leave their tribe to go live like wolves for a year, killing and stealing for their needs. They would return after the end of their exile to a celebration which apparently included wolf sacrifice. That tradition remained strong among all of their successor groups, such as the Irish and Germans mentioned in the thread title. With US culture being more or less a blend of different variations on that one original culture, wouldn't it make sense that we would still retain echos of their most deeply felt values?

*Their social structure was tripartite and divided into farmers, warriors, and priests, with the king being a rough combination of the latter two.

 

[HUGGY]

Is there REALLY such a thing as an AVERAGE street gang?

What is the criteria of your "average" street gang?

You are suggesting that a Crips or Bloods derivative is the same as the "average" non affiliated gang that slings crack on any given street corner with no particular political goals.

You don't differentiate between a militia expression out of a suppressed community as a response to that suppression and one that is just opportunistic taking advantage of a supply and demand of narcotics are the same?

Shouldn't you start within the reason for the "gang" rather than define the "gang" by it's methods from the outside in?

No one forces a group of random blacks in a given neighborhood to sell crack ...and to what end? To pay for school to rise up out of the ghetto?

How about the Cosa Nostra or Mafia? They are highly organised and actually do little killing though highly publicized. The "family" is primarily and mostly a "normal" moral entity with many "investments" that reinvest in the family structure not unlike any family business dealing with unpopular methods. The employees of the Blackwater company were so called moral individuals acting as hired guns killing/murdering for hire. They did jobs for political reasons though not necessarily of their own. One could say that Blackwater was a gang.

It seems to me that there are as many reasons for gangs as there are gangs.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Is there REALLY such a thing as an AVERAGE street gang?

They all have certain things in common. That's why they're all, well, gangs.

What is the criteria of your "average" street gang?

"A gang is a group of recurrently associating individuals or close friends or family with identifiable leadership and internal organization, identifying with or claiming control over territory in a community, and engaging either individually or collectively in violent or illegal behavior. Some criminal gang members are "jumped in" or have to prove their loyalty by committing acts such as theft or violence. A member of a gang may be called a gangster or a thug." - Stolen from Wiki.

You are suggesting that a Crips or Bloods derivative is the same as the "average" non affiliated gang that slings crack on any given street corner with no particular political goals.

I don't think many gangs have political goals. They typically justify their existence by offering early to mid teenagers protection from rival gangs, community, social status, power, and the opportunity to fight other gangs and make money. The old bands I'm talking about typically recruited early to mid teenagers by offering protection from rival bands, a sense of community, social status, power, and the opportunity to raid other bands and tribes and steal their stuff. I'm just saying there's something of a correlation here.

You don't differentiate between a militia expression out of a suppressed community as a response to that suppression and one that is just opportunistic taking advantage of a supply and demand of narcotics are the same?

I'm not talking about militias created out of desperation as a response to oppression. I'm talking about iron age warrior bands that existed as sacred institutions in the long-dead societies ours ultimately descends from.

Shouldn't you start within the reason for the "gang" rather than define the "gang" by it's methods from the outside in?

I did above. I had assumed that everyone was aware of what a gang is and how it functions.

No one forces a group of random blacks in a given neighborhood to sell crack ...and to what end? To pay for school to rise up out of the ghetto?

Black culture is a variation of white culture, which more or less acts as the default American culture due to the power structure in this country. European descended people were doing all of this before they ever enslaved West Africans and stripped them of their original culture heritage. I would argue that the Crips learned it from the Roach Guards.

How about the Cosa Nostra or Mafia? They are highly organised and actually do little killing though highly publicized. The "family" is primarily and mostly a "normal" moral entity with many "investments" that reinvest in the family structure not unlike any family business dealing with unpopular methods. The employees of the Blackwater company were so called moral individuals acting as hired guns killing/murdering for hire. They did jobs for political reasons though not necessarily of their own. One could say that Blackwater was a gang.

I would also argue that the Mafia at least originally might have represented another example of a bastardized variation on that cultural archetype.

It seems to me that there are as many reasons for gangs as there are gangs.

You could call any armed group a gang if you wanted to. My definition is above.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Or the NYPD?