How much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world?

[ding]

Care to post your math ... I have 12 billion tons divided by 18 million tons equals 666 times more abundant ...

Let's call the current production of lithium at 100,000 tonnes/yr ... 180 years to mine your 18 million tonnes needed to replace all piston engine rigs in the universe ... chief production is from Australia, and that's strictly 18th Century technology ... reserves are in Australia, Chile and Argentina ... so it looks like the Southern Hemisphere has us by the nuts ...

Why is there poverty in the Nigar River Delta region? ...

The math WAS posted in the OP.

There is poverty in the Nigar River Delta region because they are not industrialized.

 

[ding]

I never said nor implied it was a simple task. What you want appears to be for someone to agree with you assumptions, not provide logical assumptions that differ with the ones on which you want the focus to be maintained.

But to not factor in expanded mining, improvements in sea/salt water extraction, and recycling renders your "massive shortfall" as meaning less.

Supply and demand will be the factors that control production. Demand increases, if supply remains static the cost increases. Increases on cost then drive improvements on the supply side which then tends to stabilize prices at a new level.

WW

Not sure how you can argue that I want someone to agree with me. I couldn't care less about that. I'm just showing the math on how much lithium is needed to replace all ICE vehicles. How much do you believe lithium mining production will need to be increased to replace all ICE vehicles?

 

[ding]

Not enough, and then what about the electric grid?

Exactly. They will need about the same amount of lithium to build battery backups for solar and wind once fossil fuels are phased out. AND they will need to install more solar and wind capacity to charge those batteries while providing electricity when solar and wind are generating.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Not sure how you can argue that I want someone to agree with me. I couldn't care less about that. I'm just showing the math on how much lithium is needed to replace all ICE vehicles. How much do you believe lithium mining production will need to be increased to replace all ICE vehicles?

Not all ICE engines (at the current state of technology) will be replaced.

I disagree with the very premise.

#1 My father was a long haul trucker making cross country runs, at the current state of technology EV's can't do in the time he did with his partner in a sleeper cab 18-wheeler in 3-4 days hauling load.

#2 Not all personal ICE vehicles will be replaced by EV's in the next 30-50 years. Even in California which targets 100% New Car sales in the state by 2035 doesn't mean that by 2035 all ICE vehicles will be replaced.

#3 There are lots and lots of ICE applications beyond vehicles, some of those will be converted to EVs, other will remain ICE.

WW

 

[ReinyDays]

"[My math] says the shortfall is more than 2 orders of magnitude"

Your post 173 ... the OP got the 18 million tonnes right, but then you failed to point out there's 12 billion tonnes in proven reserves ... we find lithium where we find salt, like the oceans ... easy peasy ... with bare hands and wicker baskets it should only take a couple hundred years to mine ...

Now where's all the steel coming from? ... seems to me that's a bigger problem from an environmentalist aspect ...

=====

Royal Dutch Shell doesn't have any machinery? ... I thought pot was still illegal where you live ... what are you talking about, the Nigar River Delta is one of the largest oil reserves on the planet ... Nigeria is the 9th leading exporter of crude oil, they have all the machinery they need AND they can afford this machinery ...

So why is there widespread poverty there? ...

 

[ReinyDays]

The average home is about $30K to put in solar in the US. It takes a long time to recoup that amount of money with interest, maintenance and deterioration. Especially "Upnorth" where there are several month of cloudy or overcast skies and low sun during a good portion of the year.

As an Engineer I know how to calculate the real economic cost of a project. The no bullshit cost. Even at Potatohead's artificial high cost of energy the payback is just not there for most places in the US.

There is a band in South California, Arizona and New Mexico where solar is marginally worthwhile but otherwise forget it. Even here in Florida, which is called the "Sunshine State", it is not really economical. The Pacific Northwest? Don't be an idiot.

Solar and wind are terrible technology for mass electricity generation. It is an Environmental Wacko's wet dream but still only a dream. We need dead dinosaurs or nuclear to produce real energy. That is the real science that the stupid Libtards deny.

How do you fit $30,000 worth of solar panels on the average house? ... 1,300 sq ft ... this thread started with mathing, let's see yours ... how much power per sq ft under ideal conditions ... c'mon, Mr Engineer, show us how you engineer things ... (a link would be sufficient if you don't want to type it all out) ...

Do you include shade trees and other passive designs in your solar calculations? ... you're the Engineer, you should know all this already ... I'm glad you capitalized that word, otherwise I would never have known ... it's good to have a certificate from a vocational school ... they learned you Englishing gooder ...

ETA: Looking at my electric bill, an average of 12 kW-hr per day spins my meter backwards ... [ka'ching] ... making money ... though I have no idea if the power company would pay me, not all do ...

 

[ding]

Not all ICE engines (at the current state of technology) will be replaced.

I disagree with the very premise.

#1 My father was a long haul trucker making cross country runs, at the current state of technology EV's can't do in the time he did with his partner in a sleeper cab 18-wheeler in 3-4 days hauling load.

#2 Not all personal ICE vehicles will be replaced by EV's in the next 30-50 years. Even in California which targets 100% New Car sales in the state by 2035 doesn't mean that by 2035 all ICE vehicles will be replaced.

#3 There are lots and lots of ICE applications beyond vehicles, some of those will be converted to EVs, other will remain ICE.

WW

I know they won't. They won't even come close. They should be honest about their niche. The point of the OP was to show the magnitude of the task. EV's aren't a very good technology. Hybrids are better.

 

[ReinyDays]

They should be honest about their niche.

A little commute vehicle ... 20 miles into the business center of town, and then back home to the 'burbs ... what hybrids do very well right now ... just depends on your cost of electricity ... and that should be fine enough for girls ...

Men need to carry cement and 6x12's and heavy tools and such ... no pussy electric is going help there HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You can't simply calculate how many electric vehicles (EV) batteries are needed for the worldwide fleet to replace internal combustion engines. First of all there is no exact number of internal combustion engines in the world. Secondly there is variability in the battery size of EV batteries. So the best way to calculate how much lithium is needed to replace all of internal combustion engines in the world is to look at the daily energy consumed by internal combustion engines. This is the amount of EV battery capacity that is needed to operate EV's on a daily basis.

So we have to start with how much oil is produced daily. That number is 88 million barrels of oil per day. Then we need to calculate how much of that oil is actually refined into gasoline and diesel. Approximately 45 percent of a typical barrel of crude oil is refined into gasoline. An additional 29 percent is refined to diesel fuel. So I will start with the assumption that 74% of the 88 million barrels of oil per day is being consumed by ICE engines or 65,120,000 barrels of oil per day (88,000,000 bopd x 0.74 = 65,120,000 bopd). This is the amount of EV battery capacity that is needed to operate EV's on a daily basis.

Next we need to calculate the energy equivalent in kWh of 65,120,000 barrels of oil per day. The energy contained in a barrel of oil is approximately 5.8 million British thermal units (MBtus) or 1,700 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy. So there are an equivalent 110,700,000,000 kWh (110,700,000 mWh or 110,700 gWh or 110.7 tWh) in 65,120,000 barrels of oil (65,120,000 bbl of oil x 1700 kWh/bbl of oil = 110,700,000,000 kWh).

Next we need to determine the amount of lithium that is required to produce enough batteries to hold a charge of 110,700,000,000 kWh. The lithium content found in a lithium-ion battery for an electric vehicle is approximately 0.85 kg of lithium carbonate per kWh. This amounts to approximately 0.16kg of Lithium metal/kWh. So the amount of lithium required to produce enough batteries to hold a charge of 110,700,000,000 kWh is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal.

So the answer to the question of how much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal. Which is equal to 17,712,640 metric tons.

Worldwide Oil Produced per day

Global oil production 2022 | Statista

Global oil production amounted to 93.9million barrels per day in 2022.

www.statista.com

Percent of Gasoline/Diesel Refined per barrel of oil

https://www3.uwsp.edu/cnr-ap/KEEP/Documents/Activities/Energy%20Fact%20Sheets/FactsAboutOil.pdf

kWh Equivalent of a barrel of oil

https://www.ocean.washington.edu/courses/envir215/energynumbers.pdf

Lithium metal Required per kWH

How Much Lithium is in an Electric car Battery?_Greenway battery | E-BIKE Battery-Custom Lithium Battery Pack

How Much Lithium is in an Electric car Battery?-Greenway battery | E-BIKE Battery-Custom Lithium Battery Pack

m.greenway-battery.com

Any questions?

 

[ding]

A little commute vehicle ... 20 miles into the business center of town, and then back home to the 'burbs ... what hybrids do very well right now ... just depends on your cost of electricity ... and that should be fine enough for girls ...

Men need to carry cement and 6x12's and heavy tools and such ... no pussy electric is going help there HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

The other niche is toy for the rich.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Incorrect.

LOLOL

Sure... sure.

LOL

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

A textbook example of the dunning effect

LOL.

I can't WAIT until you learn what DK actually is.




What is it like being so astoundingly uneducated?

Is that why you lie about being a "petroleum engineer"? Because we can see you don't actually understand physical sciences.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

A little commute vehicle ... 20 miles into the business center of town, and then back home to the 'burbs ... what hybrids do very well right now ... just depends on your cost of electricity ... and that should be fine enough for girls ...

Wow. You don't know much do you?

What's it like being uninformed and still thinking you should speak?

 

[ReinyDays]

Wow. You don't know much do you?

What's it like being uninformed and still thinking you should speak?

I was going to ask you the same ... what do you believe is correct? ... have you ever driven an EV or Hybrid on any 3-digit logging roads ... and if you've lived in the Willamette Valley, you know exactly the roads I'm talking about ... the ones where packing a chainsaw is recommended ...

Go ahead and plug-in, no one's watching ...

 

[ReinyDays]

The other niche is toy for the rich.

With a couple Honeywell TFE731's? ... maybe you've not played with many rich folk ... but jet engines are ICEs too ...

 

[Weatherman2020]

You can't simply calculate how many electric vehicles (EV) batteries are needed for the worldwide fleet to replace internal combustion engines. First of all there is no exact number of internal combustion engines in the world. Secondly there is variability in the battery size of EV batteries. So the best way to calculate how much lithium is needed to replace all of internal combustion engines in the world is to look at the daily energy consumed by internal combustion engines. This is the amount of EV battery capacity that is needed to operate EV's on a daily basis.

So we have to start with how much oil is produced daily. That number is 88 million barrels of oil per day. Then we need to calculate how much of that oil is actually refined into gasoline and diesel. Approximately 45 percent of a typical barrel of crude oil is refined into gasoline. An additional 29 percent is refined to diesel fuel. So I will start with the assumption that 74% of the 88 million barrels of oil per day is being consumed by ICE engines or 65,120,000 barrels of oil per day (88,000,000 bopd x 0.74 = 65,120,000 bopd). This is the amount of EV battery capacity that is needed to operate EV's on a daily basis.

Next we need to calculate the energy equivalent in kWh of 65,120,000 barrels of oil per day. The energy contained in a barrel of oil is approximately 5.8 million British thermal units (MBtus) or 1,700 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy. So there are an equivalent 110,700,000,000 kWh (110,700,000 mWh or 110,700 gWh or 110.7 tWh) in 65,120,000 barrels of oil (65,120,000 bbl of oil x 1700 kWh/bbl of oil = 110,700,000,000 kWh).

Next we need to determine the amount of lithium that is required to produce enough batteries to hold a charge of 110,700,000,000 kWh. The lithium content found in a lithium-ion battery for an electric vehicle is approximately 0.85 kg of lithium carbonate per kWh. This amounts to approximately 0.16kg of Lithium metal/kWh. So the amount of lithium required to produce enough batteries to hold a charge of 110,700,000,000 kWh is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal.

So the answer to the question of how much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world is 17,713,000,000 kg of lithium metal. Which is equal to 17,712,640 metric tons.

Worldwide Oil Produced per day

Global oil production 2022 | Statista

Global oil production amounted to 93.9million barrels per day in 2022.

www.statista.com

Percent of Gasoline/Diesel Refined per barrel of oil

https://www3.uwsp.edu/cnr-ap/KEEP/Documents/Activities/Energy%20Fact%20Sheets/FactsAboutOil.pdf

kWh Equivalent of a barrel of oil

https://www.ocean.washington.edu/courses/envir215/energynumbers.pdf

Lithium metal Required per kWH

How Much Lithium is in an Electric car Battery?_Greenway battery | E-BIKE Battery-Custom Lithium Battery Pack

How Much Lithium is in an Electric car Battery?-Greenway battery | E-BIKE Battery-Custom Lithium Battery Pack

m.greenway-battery.com

Any questions?

There isn’t enough to replace 10%.

For every car battery, 500,000 pounds of dirt must be moved by diesel heavy equipment.

 

[ding]

LOL.

I can't WAIT until you learn what DK actually is.




What is it like being so astoundingly uneducated?

Is that why you lie about being a "petroleum engineer"? Because we can see you don't actually understand physical sciences.

Feel free to explain it to me.

 

[ding]

Is that why you lie about being a "petroleum engineer"? Because we can see you don't actually understand physical sciences.

Another textbook example of the dunning effect

 

[ding]

What's it like being uninformed and still thinking you should speak?

Still dunning effect.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Still dunning effect.

No one asked you, moron. Literally no one cares what a school janitor thinks about ANY of this!