Criticism of Israel

[Votto]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel. However, a lot that is going on right now isnt anti-zionism, it is anti-semitism.
Like "stop the genocide!" Ok, so what were they supposed to do? Just let HAMAS get away with that attack? What if Mexico attacked us and raped our owmen like they did israel?
On twitter, it is blowing up with israel attacking syria and lebanon. When they got attacked first.
Jews are getting attacked on the streets all over the planet.
Saying "you cant attack the govt of israel with out being accused of anti-semitism" is gaslighting.

You don't expect an honest answer from these people do you?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Universities have codes of conduct that disallow threatening behavior towards fellow students and hate speech.

And if you bothered watching any of these stories, you would see that these university Presidents at a Congressional hearing would either say, "It depends on the context of what the threatening verbiage", or they would glibly say those events were under investigation, when we all know better. Other forms of hate speech were dealt with instantly.

They were absolutely right to say it depends on the context. I watched the hearings. You need to understand that it is very rare in these disputes to hear a person making a truly antisemitic statement like "All Jews are rats" or "I don't think Jews should be welcome in America".

No, the things they say are nothing like this, they say things that SOME PEOPLE INTERPRET AS ANTISEMITIC and that means it is a matter of interpretation not language.

It is compatible to Trump having Presidential records he is condemned for having but not others like Biden and Pence, etc.

Trump refused to hand his back when asked, Biden did not.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

We have antisemites spewing obviously antisemitic words and phrases, and then they want us to believe they’re not antisemites.

Tell me you obnoxious entitled blabber mouth, is the Rabbi an antisemite?

 

[Lisa558]

Tell me blabber mouth, is the Rabbi an antisemite?

No, some of the ultra Orthodox oppose Israel, but I don’t hear them lying about genocide and chanting “Death to Jews,” you obvious antidemite.

 

[Lisa558]

They were absolutely right to say it depends on the context. I watched the hearings. You need to understand that it is very rare in these disputes to hear a person making a truly antisemitic statement like "All Jews are rats" or "I don't think Jews should be welcome in America".

No, the things they say are nothing like this, they say things that SOME PEOPLE INTERPRET AS ANTISEMITIC and that means it is a matter of interpretation not language.

Trump refused to hand his back when asked, Biden did not.

Ah….so now the antisemite gets to determine what statements qualify as antisemitic?

News flash: accusing Israel of genocide is a disgusting lie driven by hatred of Jews.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

We have antisemites spewing obviously antisemitic words and phrases, and then they want us to believe they’re not antisemites.

Here's you (at least she argues like you) freaking out at all the antisemitic Jews.



Anyone shouting at those peaceful Jews is very clearly an antisemite.

 

[Lisa558]

Here's you (at least she argues like you) freaking out at all the antisemitic Jews.

LOL. Keep trying yo prove you’re not a Jew-hater.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

No, some of the ultra Orthodox oppose Israel, but I don’t hear them lying about genocide and chanting “Death to Jews,” you obvious antidemite.

If I show you an Orthodox Jew stating that the Gaza campaign is genocide, will you retract your statement?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

LOL. Keep trying yo prove you’re not a Jew-hater.

You've gone all quiet Lisa, let me ask you a second time If I show you an a Jew stating that the Gaza campaign is genocide, will you retract your statement?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Here Lisa558 this is for you



Don't come barging into an adult conversation throwing tantrums and calling people names in future. These are possibly the only Jews you should be listening to, not the entitled racist scumbags like this cosplay idiot, a vile repugnant individual who calls for genocide and disgraced the US flag by wearing the uniform of a third world apartheid regime.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

We have antisemites spewing obviously antisemitic words and phrases, and then they want us to believe they’re not antisemites.

How do we best describe the slaufgter in Gaza ? Ive just watched a film of kids being driven from one "safe" place to a destination unknown. They havent harmed anyone. How can I best put into words how I feel about this atrocity ?
Anti semites want to push you into ovens. I would defend you from that.
But that doesnt give you the right to kill at will.

 

[Shusha]

This thread is dedicated to example of where criticism of the state has led to serious problems for people.

First step would be to understand the difference between criticism of Israel and antisemitic remarks. A criticism of Israel is a condemnation of a specific action. Character descriptors are not criticism.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Such hate speech as "genocidal" and "terrorists" will only encourage the mentally ill, which is in every society, to act on it.

One doesn't decide if an action is genocide or terrorist based on the race/ethnicity of those engaged in said actions.

And when they do, what does the Left care? They don't care for the mentally ill or the Jews they hate.

People of all races and colors have died over the centuries, struggling to establish the right to free speech so a person can express their opinions and you take that privilege and use it to write vacuous rants like this?

 

[Shusha]

I think they were supposed to run the state in such a way that there is no desire to launch terrorist attacks.

That is the clearest example of victim-blaming I've seen lately. It makes the victim of terror attacks responsible for appeasing their attackers in order to prevent the attack, rather than holding the perpetrator accountable for their actions.

This is NOT a criticism of Israel or Israel's actions, but a slur to paint Israel as the only one responsible.

 

[Shusha]

There we go, I am being called an antisemite for using the term "Zionist Regime" but how can I be antisemitic for making such a statement?

If you were criticizing Israel, you would simply use the term "Israel" or "the government of Israel" or the "Israeli army". You employ the term "Zionist Regime" in order to emphasize the evil characterization.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

First step would be to understand the difference between criticism of Israel and antisemitic remarks. A criticism of Israel is a condemnation of a specific action. Character descriptors are not criticism.

One cannot escape from the interpretation issue. During the hearings about universities enabling antisemitism, the question came up from Stefanik "does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Pen's rules or code of conduct, yes or no?".

There's then a brief interchange where "context" is raised by Magill and met with stern disapproval by Stefanik.

Stefanik claims "this is the easiest question to answer, yes or so".

I think Magill may have felt pressured, because it was a perfect opportunity to expose Zionist apologists like Stefanik for the fascist she is.

 

[Shusha]

You need to understand that it is very rare in these disputes to hear a person making a truly antisemitic statement like "All Jews are rats" or "I don't think Jews should be welcome in America".

Anti semites want to push you into ovens.

I think we need a better and broader definition of antisemitism.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Source

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I think we need a better and broader definition of antisemitism.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Source

You can use that if you want, but I don't.

 

[TNHarley]

I think they were supposed to run the state in such a way that there is no desire to launch terrorist attacks. That's what the Israeli government could have been doing since 1948 but it has not pursued such a path.

Yep, its their fault their women and children got raped.

I don't think its very productive to try and establish a "first" one can do that but it's ultimately unprovable, we can't prove X led to Y and then Y led to Z, different people interpret things differently. A plausible timeline can be created but its never complete, never free from assumptions.

Israel got attacked, they responded, and they were getting called NAZIs or whatever else. So, yes, I think establishing a "first" is necessary.

I don't think that's a credible claim.

It isnt my fault you are keeping up with everything. Its certainly there for all to see.

Israel has more power to improve the situation but it does not, it avoids the obvious and instead continually acts to increase tension, increase violence, increase risks.

Yes! They should stop fighting back! Excellent. I am sure you would feel the same if America was being attacked by all sides.

you'll soon find that the "antisemite" accusation comes your way, it has to me many times on this forum.

And a lot fo times its not. But lately? Its because they are Jews. There is no other LOGICAL reasoning for it.

 

[Shusha]

One cannot escape from the interpretation issue. During the hearings about universities enabling antisemitism, the question came up from Stefanik "does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Pen's rules or code of conduct, yes or no?".

Um. Wow.

"Gas the Jews! Gas the Jews! Oh! Don't you mis-interpret me!"

Surely, you are not arguing that there are contexts where calling for the genocide of the Jewish people is not antisemitism and merely valid criticism of the State of Israel. I didn't think even you would go that far.