How some states are using progressive ideas to address economic woes

[Bfgrn]

The churlish cry of "but moommmm they're doing it tooooo" is an irrelevant red herring.

Stupid shit like converting corn into ETOH is a net energy loss, which ends up expending even more of those eeeeevil conventional fuels you whackjobs profess to detest so much.

What's the matter Jethro, does my question use too many big words? Do we or don't we subsidize the oil industry? Ask mommy...

Does the oil industry generate a useful commodity that is more efficient then any "green" technology by a factor of three? Is it a product that is vital to the continued operation of this country? In other words if all the green technology in the world disappeared right now would anybody notice? How about the oil industry?

Oil and coal, the dirty twins cannot generate ANY low cost energy unless they externalize massive amounts of their cost to bring their product to market. And we are only talking dollars. If you factor in the HUMAN costs, they are the biggest burden on the planet.

They twins can't compete without government subsidies and forcing taxpayers clean up after them, fix the roads they destroy with overweight haul trucks, and absorb costs the twins don't factor into THEIR costs.

 

[westwall]

What's the matter Jethro, does my question use too many big words? Do we or don't we subsidize the oil industry? Ask mommy...

Does the oil industry generate a useful commodity that is more efficient then any "green" technology by a factor of three? Is it a product that is vital to the continued operation of this country? In other words if all the green technology in the world disappeared right now would anybody notice? How about the oil industry?

Oil and coal, the dirty twins cannot generate ANY low cost energy unless they externalize massive amounts of their cost to bring their product to market. And we are only talking dollars. If you factor in the HUMAN costs, they are the biggest burden on the planet.

They twins can't compete without government subsidies and forcing taxpayers clean up after them, fix the roads they destroy with overweight haul trucks, and absorb costs the twins don't factor into THEIR costs.

Show us these costs then.

 

[Bfgrn]

Does the oil industry generate a useful commodity that is more efficient then any "green" technology by a factor of three? Is it a product that is vital to the continued operation of this country? In other words if all the green technology in the world disappeared right now would anybody notice? How about the oil industry?

Oil and coal, the dirty twins cannot generate ANY low cost energy unless they externalize massive amounts of their cost to bring their product to market. And we are only talking dollars. If you factor in the HUMAN costs, they are the biggest burden on the planet.

They twins can't compete without government subsidies and forcing taxpayers clean up after them, fix the roads they destroy with overweight haul trucks, and absorb costs the twins don't factor into THEIR costs.

Show us these costs then.

The Impact of Coal on the Kentucky State Budget
Executive Summary

Rapid and dramatic changes in the world’s approach to energy have major implications for Kentucky and its coal industry. Concerns about climate change are driving policy that favors cleaner energy sources and increases the price of fossil fuels. The transition to sustainable forms of energy is becoming a major economic driver, and states are moving aggressively to develop, produce and install the energy technologies of the future. Long reliant on coal for jobs and electricity, Kentucky faces major challenges and difficult choices in the coming years.

These energy challenges come in the midst of Kentucky’s state fiscal crisis and sluggish economic performance. The gap between Kentucky’s revenues and expenditures makes it increasingly difficult to sustain existing public services. A recent University of Kentucky report notes that Kentucky ranks 44th among states in per capita income, just as in 1970, while other southern states like North Carolina and Georgia have out-performed the Commonwealth in recent years.1 Eastern Kentucky still includes 20 of the 100 poorest counties in the United States measured by median household income.2

In this critical energy, fiscal and economic context, it is increasingly important for Kentuckians to understand the role and impact of coal in our state. Coal provides economic benefits including jobs, low electricity rates and tax revenue. But the coal industry also imposes a number of costs ranging from regulatory and public infrastructure expenses to environmental and health impacts.

Coal and the Budget

The Impact of Coal on the Kentucky State Budget tells one aspect of the story of coal’s costs and benefits. The report provides an analysis of the industry’s fiscal impact by estimating the tax revenues generated by coal and the state expenditures associated with supporting the industry. We estimate for Fiscal Year 2006 Kentucky provided a net subsidy of nearly $115 million to the coal industry (see Figure 1).

Coal is responsible for an estimated $528 million in state revenues and $643 million in state expenditures. The $528 million in revenues includes $224 million from the coal severance tax and revenues from the corporate income, individual income, sales, property (including unmined minerals) and transportation taxes as well as permit fees. The $643 million in estimated expenditures includes $239 million to address the industry’s impacts on the coal haul road system as well as expenditures to regulate the environmental and health and safety impacts of coal, support coal worker training, conduct research and development for the coal industry, promote education about coal in the public schools and support the residents directly and indirectly employed by coal. Total costs also include $85 million in tax expenditures designed to subsidize the mining and burning of coal.

More

 

[bigrebnc1775]

RGGI Cap-And-Trade Boosted State Economies: Report

Reports show that between 2008 and 2009, these CT programs produced $3 to $4 for every $1 invested. Nearly 2,700 jobs are directly attributed to energy efficiency, with an average employment income of $50,000 per year. ECMB's energy efficient programs also reportedly benefit low-income consumers -- through auditing, weatherization, and retrofitting programs, consumers saw an estimated $6 million dollars in annual energy savings.

If cap-and-trade is truly dead, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI) is desperately fighting to resuscitate it.

RGGI was formed by ten states in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, focused on reducing CO2 emissions through cap-and-trade programs. RGGI reported this week that state programs have already seen many economic and environmental benefits.

States are expected to sell emission allowances through auctions, and invest their proceeds in consumer benefits. Participating states are reportedly investing, on average, 80 percent of their CO2 allowance proceeds to consumer benefit and energy programs. The report's findings are based on a two-year analysis of program investments, specifically focused on energy efficiency, renewable energy, bill payment assistance, and additional programs.

Overall the report finds that state investments have created jobs, reduced energy costs, and generated high economic returns.

More

You are either a government troll or you work for the power company. Either way you are to stupid to see that any increase of cost will be passed down to the consumer.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Hey, to all you regressive right wing Einsteins...meet you daddies.

Here is a news flash...heavy manufacturing will never come back to America. The only way new jobs can be created is through new technologies, like green. But carry on because energy independence is EVIL and pollution is wonderful.

Energy independence is wonderful. The only way cap and trade will work is if it is imposed globally, and run by a multinational organization that controls all energy. Can you explain to me how come you have opposed all efforts to make this country energy independent?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

America gets a large part, if not most, of its imported oil from Canada and Mexico, fool.

Of course, we could be drilling right here in America, but environmentalist moonbats like you will have none of that.

Of course, we could be expanding alternative energy but then those who can't imagine replacing over two century old technology (combustion engine) will never have none of that. I'm amazed these folks have computers, cell phone, IPods, microwaves etc; all products of the great technological revolution. Funny how that great revolution didn't spread to eliminating oil dependency for our energy.

If you want alternative energy are you more worried about a lizard and some birds than about producing it?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Good...Let 'em spend their money on that crap.

BTW, what's the break-even point for the dreaded "carbon footprint" of just one of those goofy windmills?

Hey Jethro, name ONE industry that emits only carbon dioxide. Just one will do.

Dairy.

 

[kiwiman127]

Does the oil industry generate a useful commodity that is more efficient then any "green" technology by a factor of three? Is it a product that is vital to the continued operation of this country? In other words if all the green technology in the world disappeared right now would anybody notice? How about the oil industry?

Oh, you should ask the country that will soon take over the Number 1 spot as the world's biggest economy,,,,China! China has invested unbelievable amounts of money on alternative energy to accelerate their growth and become less reliant on oil. India is also following the same pattern as China. I guess these countries with growing economies aren't as smart as you and are ill-informed.
While folks like yourself wallow in the old status quo, the rest of the world is catching up, poised to pass us by.
Don't believe me, go to Google and look it up. It's happening and happening now.

They are also building a coal powered power plant every week, or did you just not bother to mention that little factoid? As for the rest, let them. We have invested billions of dollars in tech research only to have them steal it. Now it's our turn.

Actually, China is also trying to wean themselves off of coal according to this White Paper named China's Insatiable Energy Needs, written by Matthew Simmons who has wrote articles for the Wall Street Journal, The Economist, Fortune and Businessweek and amongst others. He's also a member of the National Petroleum Council and the Oil & Gas Compact Commission. This White Paper was written after Simmons visited China and talked to China's energy leaders. In other words,,,,he's a highly respected expert whose work is based on actually visiting China and talking to the right people.. Read it yourself.

www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/phillips/309g/Simmons.doc

And another article that quotes the Chinese about reducing coal usage.

http://www.theworld.org/2010/12/china-renewables-coal-wind-solar-climate/

And another one!

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/w...as-5-year-plan/article1929300/?service=mobile

How about one more? OK!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303284604575582241618001672.html

 

[Bfgrn]

Good...Let 'em spend their money on that crap.

BTW, what's the break-even point for the dreaded "carbon footprint" of just one of those goofy windmills?

Hey Jethro, name ONE industry that emits only carbon dioxide. Just one will do.

Dairy.

Your 400 words for the day:

Animal Waste, the Environment, and Human Health

People often believe that animal manure is harmless, but in truth it can be quite hazardous. Factory livestock facilities pollute the air and release over 400 separate gasses, mostly due to the large amounts of manure they produce. The principal gases released are hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia, and carbon dioxide. Gasses can be dangerous air pollutants that threaten both the environment and human health. Nitric oxides are also released in large quantities from farms through manure application, and are among the leading causes of acid rain

 

[westwall]

Oh, you should ask the country that will soon take over the Number 1 spot as the world's biggest economy,,,,China! China has invested unbelievable amounts of money on alternative energy to accelerate their growth and become less reliant on oil. India is also following the same pattern as China. I guess these countries with growing economies aren't as smart as you and are ill-informed.
While folks like yourself wallow in the old status quo, the rest of the world is catching up, poised to pass us by.
Don't believe me, go to Google and look it up. It's happening and happening now.

They are also building a coal powered power plant every week, or did you just not bother to mention that little factoid? As for the rest, let them. We have invested billions of dollars in tech research only to have them steal it. Now it's our turn.

Actually, China is also trying to wean themselves off of coal according to this White Paper named China's Insatiable Energy Needs, written by Matthew Simmons who has wrote articles for the Wall Street Journal, The Economist, Fortune and Businessweek and amongst others. He's also a member of the National Petroleum Council and the Oil & Gas Compact Commission. This White Paper was written after Simmons visited China and talked to China's energy leaders. In other words,,,,he's a highly respected expert whose work is based on actually visiting China and talking to the right people.. Read it yourself.

www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/phillips/309g/Simmons.doc

One power plant a week is weaning themselves off of it huh? Good to know. FYI, China uses more coal then the US, Japan and Europe combined. China is buildng much cleaner coal burning power plants than we are, welll, they're actually building plants and we aren't.
China is also building more nuclear power plants than the rest of the world combined.

China is also pioneering the use of coal gassification plants and while we dither over building just one, China is allready building one test plant in Tianjin. What China is doing is decomissioning one old higher polluting coal plant for evey new plant they build. They have achieved 44% efficiency rates with their new plants while we are stuck at 40% thanks to the fact we aren't allowed to build newer high efficiency plants.

That's where they're beating us. They aren't weaning themselves off of coal at all, they are just using it a lot better than we are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/world/asia/11coal.html

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Hey Jethro, name ONE industry that emits only carbon dioxide. Just one will do.

Dairy.

Your 400 words for the day:

Animal Waste, the Environment, and Human Health

People often believe that animal manure is harmless, but in truth it can be quite hazardous. Factory livestock facilities pollute the air and release over 400 separate gasses, mostly due to the large amounts of manure they produce. The principal gases released are hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia, and carbon dioxide. Gasses can be dangerous air pollutants that threaten both the environment and human health. Nitric oxides are also released in large quantities from farms through manure application, and are among the leading causes of acid rain

Are you whining again? Why are you posting data about using animal fertilizers anyway?

 

[kiwiman127]

Westwall,,,,

NOVEMBER 29, 2010.
Playing the Nuclear Card

As China looks to wean itself off coal, CLP Holdings sees a big opportunity.

Coal is still king in China's energy sector, and will be for years. But Beijing is laying the groundwork for nuclear and renewable energy to play a much bigger role—and no company illustrates that shift better than Hong Kong's biggest utility, CLP Holdings Ltd.

CLP, one of the biggest foreign investors in the mainland's power sector, says it no longer will build coal-fired plants in China. It will continue to expand capacity at its existing Chinese coal plants. But the company's new construction and other investment for the future in China will focus more on nuclear and renewable energy

China Shifting From Coal to Nuclear and Renewable Energy - WSJ.com

Maybe this more current article from the Wall Street Journal will clear things up for you.

 

[Bfgrn]

Dairy.

Your 400 words for the day:

Animal Waste, the Environment, and Human Health

People often believe that animal manure is harmless, but in truth it can be quite hazardous. Factory livestock facilities pollute the air and release over 400 separate gasses, mostly due to the large amounts of manure they produce. The principal gases released are hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia, and carbon dioxide. Gasses can be dangerous air pollutants that threaten both the environment and human health. Nitric oxides are also released in large quantities from farms through manure application, and are among the leading causes of acid rain

Are you whining again? Why are you posting data about using animal fertilizers anyway?

Hello? Is anybody home? You claim that dairy farms emit only carbon dioxide. I will share with you a top secret dairy ingredient...but don't tell anyone I let you in on it, OK?

 

[westwall]

Westwall,,,,

NOVEMBER 29, 2010.
Playing the Nuclear Card

As China looks to wean itself off coal, CLP Holdings sees a big opportunity.

Coal is still king in China's energy sector, and will be for years. But Beijing is laying the groundwork for nuclear and renewable energy to play a much bigger role—and no company illustrates that shift better than Hong Kong's biggest utility, CLP Holdings Ltd.

CLP, one of the biggest foreign investors in the mainland's power sector, says it no longer will build coal-fired plants in China. It will continue to expand capacity at its existing Chinese coal plants. But the company's new construction and other investment for the future in China will focus more on nuclear and renewable energy

China Shifting From Coal to Nuclear and Renewable Energy - WSJ.com

Maybe this more current article from the Wall Street Journal will clear things up for you.

I am very aware of the more recent articles. They don't negate the earlier in this case. China is "weaning" themselves off of coal by building more efficient plants. They are still using coal at a prodigious and increasing rate. That is my point.

 

[Bfgrn]

Westwall,,,,

NOVEMBER 29, 2010.
Playing the Nuclear Card

As China looks to wean itself off coal, CLP Holdings sees a big opportunity.

Coal is still king in China's energy sector, and will be for years. But Beijing is laying the groundwork for nuclear and renewable energy to play a much bigger role—and no company illustrates that shift better than Hong Kong's biggest utility, CLP Holdings Ltd.

CLP, one of the biggest foreign investors in the mainland's power sector, says it no longer will build coal-fired plants in China. It will continue to expand capacity at its existing Chinese coal plants. But the company's new construction and other investment for the future in China will focus more on nuclear and renewable energy

China Shifting From Coal to Nuclear and Renewable Energy - WSJ.com

Maybe this more current article from the Wall Street Journal will clear things up for you.

China is spending 7 trillion dollars over the next 5 years on green energy technology. More than they will spend on military. The Chinese see this as the modern day 'race to to moon'...and America will sit on the sidelines and watch because half the people in this country have been brainwashed by well funded propaganda paid for by dirty energy cartels.

 

[kiwiman127]

So, I posted four resources that support the fact that China is truly weaning itself off of coal as a major resource for energy. I never stated they were stopping the usage of coal. Correct?
The point I have been trying to pound into you is that China, India other Asia countries who are competitors of the US are moving ahead of the US in regards to alternative energy. This while the US and certain ideologies have gone into "the status quo is fine mode" and are basically anti-alternative energy.
Alternative energy is moving ahead worldwide as another energy resource, it's a fact. Yet in the US, there's resistance and basically it isn't driven by facts but more so by ideology, which is evident here on these boards and in Washington.
Maybe if science and progressives weren't pushing alternative energy maybe some people would open their minds. It seems that just because the other side is "for" something, the other side just "must" be against it. What a crazy world we live in.
Now for an "uniformed" poster, I have made some very relevant points.

 

[Oddball]

BTW...How many of those "new jobs" aren't regulators and other bureaucrats?

Anyone?

Beuller?

 

[westwall]

So, I posted four resources that support the fact that China is truly weaning itself off of coal as a major resource for energy. I never stated they were stopping the usage of coal. Correct?
The point I have been trying to pound into you is that China, India other Asia countries who are competitors of the US are moving ahead of the US in regards to alternative energy. This while the US and certain ideologies have gone into "the status quo is fine mode" and are basically anti-alternative energy.
Alternative energy is moving ahead worldwide as another energy resource, it's a fact. Yet in the US, there's resistance and basically it isn't driven by facts but more so by ideology, which is evident here on these boards and in Washington.
Maybe if science and progressives weren't pushing alternative energy maybe some people would open their minds. It seems that just because the other side is "for" something, the other side just "must" be against it. What a crazy world we live in.
Now for an "uniformed" poster, I have made some very relevant points.

And didn't you see where I said "good let them waste the money finding out what works and what doesn't so we can steal the tech from them", or didn't you catch that the first time around?

 

[kiwiman127]

So, I posted four resources that support the fact that China is truly weaning itself off of coal as a major resource for energy. I never stated they were stopping the usage of coal. Correct?
The point I have been trying to pound into you is that China, India other Asia countries who are competitors of the US are moving ahead of the US in regards to alternative energy. This while the US and certain ideologies have gone into "the status quo is fine mode" and are basically anti-alternative energy.
Alternative energy is moving ahead worldwide as another energy resource, it's a fact. Yet in the US, there's resistance and basically it isn't driven by facts but more so by ideology, which is evident here on these boards and in Washington.
Maybe if science and progressives weren't pushing alternative energy maybe some people would open their minds. It seems that just because the other side is "for" something, the other side just "must" be against it. What a crazy world we live in.
Now for an "uniformed" poster, I have made some very relevant points.

And didn't you see where I said "good let them waste the money finding out what works and what doesn't so we can steal the tech from them", or didn't you catch that the first time around?

Yeah, what a brilliant statement. To paraphrase,,"let them lead and gain an advantage, so we can copy them after they are years ahead of us, that way we save $ on RD."

 

[Bfgrn]

BTW...How many of those "new jobs" aren't regulators and other bureaucrats?

Here's you problem Jethro...believing the Gryllidae westfall's feeding you.

Read up...

Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI) CO2 Budget Trading Program - News & Updates

INVESTMENT OF PROCEEDS FROM RGGI CO2 ALLOWANCES

RGGI Auction Yields $83.4 Million for Investment in Energy Efficiency, Job Creation