How would this have gone differently if guns were illegal?

[frigidweirdo]

How do you keep a bad guy from getting a gun? Almost all guns are illegal in Mexico. How has that worked out for them?

It's one of those questions isn't it?

Some countries, like Mexico, seem to be too poor (or too something, perhaps corrupt) to do much about enforcing their laws. I mean, they have serious gang problems that they can't control. So, how does Mexico control this? Simply said they can't, or won't.

So clearly they're going to have problems. In third world countries crime is higher, murder is higher, for the simple fact that the police can't do their job and there are major problems in society which means that people find crime often pays very well, or die trying.

The US is different. It has the money to spend. Clearly if it's spending 5 times more money on its prison system than other countries in a similar GDP bracket, then you wonder why it isn't spending this money stopping the crime happening in the first place. This appears to be what I'd call corruption, others call it politics.

In the UK it is possible for criminals to get guns. They're less likely to use them (ie, pulling the trigger) because guns are harder to get, and cost a lot more to get. So, you're putting more on the line. Also guns are less a part of criminal culture because guns aren't so readily available. Just having a gun is a status symbol, unlike in the US.

How to stop guns. Firstly with good checks on things coming into the country. In the UK people have successfully bought guns off the internet from the US. Shouldn't be possible, but it has been.

However in the US with legal guns you have a ready supply of guns for the illegal market. So it's almost impossible to stop criminals getting guns.

Here's the deal though. Take out the violence from the top 10 progressive controlled cities in the US and our crime rate drops to Europe's. 10 cities skew our crime rate that much.

Here's the deal though, take out the violence from the 10 crime cities in Europe and you have really, REALLY low crime rates.

 

[frigidweirdo]

But what is going to stop someone from making their own guns?

Nothing. All of the parts are easy to find, and it only takes a few minutes to put a functional zip-gun together.
Heck, one doesn't even need commercial ammunition to make a usable one, just black powder and a projectile.
Hand cannon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

True, then again most criminals aren't up to it. If someone starts producing these, there's a high chance they'll get caught in Europe.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It really boggles my mind when liberals honestly want to suggest that it's even possible to eliminate guns from the country. Pass a law if it makes you feel good. Go door to door and round up every single gun you find. Let's fly across the galaxy in the starship Enterprise and find Q and beg him to snap his fingers and make all the guns disappear.

But what is going to stop someone from making their own guns?

But then again, you don't need to eliminate guns, just reduce them down to a level where they stop being so much of a threat, like in Europe. 4.7 times less murders in the UK, and that's one of the worst countries in Europe.

 

[westwall]

How do you keep a bad guy from getting a gun? Almost all guns are illegal in Mexico. How has that worked out for them?

It's one of those questions isn't it?

Some countries, like Mexico, seem to be too poor (or too something, perhaps corrupt) to do much about enforcing their laws. I mean, they have serious gang problems that they can't control. So, how does Mexico control this? Simply said they can't, or won't.

So clearly they're going to have problems. In third world countries crime is higher, murder is higher, for the simple fact that the police can't do their job and there are major problems in society which means that people find crime often pays very well, or die trying.

The US is different. It has the money to spend. Clearly if it's spending 5 times more money on its prison system than other countries in a similar GDP bracket, then you wonder why it isn't spending this money stopping the crime happening in the first place. This appears to be what I'd call corruption, others call it politics.

In the UK it is possible for criminals to get guns. They're less likely to use them (ie, pulling the trigger) because guns are harder to get, and cost a lot more to get. So, you're putting more on the line. Also guns are less a part of criminal culture because guns aren't so readily available. Just having a gun is a status symbol, unlike in the US.

How to stop guns. Firstly with good checks on things coming into the country. In the UK people have successfully bought guns off the internet from the US. Shouldn't be possible, but it has been.

However in the US with legal guns you have a ready supply of guns for the illegal market. So it's almost impossible to stop criminals getting guns.

Here's the deal though. Take out the violence from the top 10 progressive controlled cities in the US and our crime rate drops to Europe's. 10 cities skew our crime rate that much.

Here's the deal though, take out the violence from the 10 crime cities in Europe and you have really, REALLY low crime rates.

Yes, you do. You also have a predominantly Caucasian population. One that has been decimated by two world wars in one hundred years. The aggressive ones were killed off. And, more to the point the violence in Europe is increasing. In the face of the strictest anti gun laws in the world, their gun crime rate is increasing. Overall they are more violent than the US, especially the UK. They haven't caught up to us in murders yet, but they will, sadly.

 

[Moonglow]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

Just like the 5 killed in the recruiting station, two were armed and returned fire, yet died any whey, kinda sucks, but it does prove your theory wrong...

 

[Alystyr]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

Just like the 5 killed in the recruiting station, two were armed and returned fire, yet died any whey, kinda sucks, but it does prove your theory wrong...

Not entirely. The two that were armed had a fighting chance. If either had succeeded, then the death toll would have been less.

 

[Moonglow]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

Just like the 5 killed in the recruiting station, two were armed and returned fire, yet died any whey, kinda sucks, but it does prove your theory wrong...

Not entirely. The two that were armed had a fighting chance. If either had succeeded, then the death toll would have been less.

Yet in reality it made no difference...

 

[Alystyr]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

Just like the 5 killed in the recruiting station, two were armed and returned fire, yet died any whey, kinda sucks, but it does prove your theory wrong...

Not entirely. The two that were armed had a fighting chance. If either had succeeded, then the death toll would have been less.

Yet in reality it made no difference...

True, in this instance, it didn't. That doesn't mean that it would happen again the same way in a very similar future situation. It doesn't mean that it wouldn't, either. There are just too many variables that come into play to determine the outcome of such a situation.
Personal preference, I'd rather have a fighting chance than no chance at all.

 

[2aguy]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

So.....over 12.8 million people in America carry guns for self defense in the United States....you have one story....

guns are used on average 2 million times a year to stop or prevent violent criminal attack....

Gun murders....8,454...committed mostly by gang members and drug dealers in inner city, small multi block areas...and in Chicago they are protected by democrat aldermen........

So...12.8 million...to 1.........yes...I can see why you are so concerned.......

 

[2aguy]

Who knows. What's the murder rate in the UK and Canada again?

Higher than Switzerland.

You have to understand Switzerland. It's not a country with people walking around with guns all over the place. People have guns locked away in their homes. They do, occasionally, have people go nuts with guns, however.

Also, they have a higher GDP, it also has better income equality, it actually looks after its people, has better education and its politics isn't blatantly partisan with big money controlling everything.

Basically Switzerland is a better country to live in, and as such sees lower crime in general.

Until they import violent people from 3rd world countries like the rest of Europe......

 

[Spare_change]

Who knows. What's the murder rate in the UK and Canada again?

You are aware, of course, that the USA ranks 111th in murder rate ---- you DID know that, right???

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[2aguy]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

We don't lock up gun criminals.......gun crime should get 10 years by law......it is rare that a criminal with a gun does more than 18 months.........so locking up criminals needs to actually happen....then our gun crime will be lower....

In Richmond, California...there were 17 guys doing 70% of all the shootings in that city......and the police knew who they were and couldn't lock them up...

Chicago...a shooting gallery.....gangs pick the aldermen who represent their districts, they prevent street cameras, prevent the hiring of more police, prevent police from arresting known gang members....and help get arrested gang members released....

So guns aren't the problem.....not locking up gun criminals is the problem.....

 

[2aguy]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

If you commit a crime with a gun you are supposed to go to jail for a long time.....criminals don't.

If you are a felon caught with a gun you are supposed to go to jail for along time...just for possessing the weapon or carrying it...they don't.

That is the problem...the small percentage of known criminals who use guns to commit crimes and are not locked up for life.....

 

[Alystyr]

So guns aren't the problem.....not locking up gun criminals is the problem.....

Exactly. From what I've seen the "gun spec" (mandatory +3 years on a sentence here) is the nearly the first thing plea bargained away during a trial.

 

[2aguy]

But wait...you said Switzerland doesn't have a prison over crowding problem...right?

Foreigners and women face Swiss problems US - The Local


The report for Switzerland identified overcrowded prisons as a particular problem, singling out Geneva's Champ-Dollon prison which, though built for 376 inmates, now contains well over 800.

The prison has been in the news this week after violent clashes between ethnic groups of inmates, with 26 prisoners and eight wardens injured in five separate incidents.

 

[2aguy]

This story is why we have gun problems...our inner cities do not control their criminals...they let criminals who use guns go...why is that?

Back of the Yards Gunmen Wanted Revenge for Earlier Shooting Authorities - Back of the Yards - DNAinfo.com Chicago

Champ, the "main player" in the shooting, had been convicted of gun possession as a felon last year. A judge sent him to boot camp, instead of the mandatory three years in prison that McCarthy's been advocating for gun crimes all year as Chicago has continued to struggle with gun violence.



Out on Bond on Murder Rap Man Charged in Back of the Yards Shooting of 13 - Back of the Yards - DNAinfo.com Chicago


Quinton Humphries, an alleged getaway driver, was out on bond in a pending murder case when he drove a group of fellow gangbangers bent on revenge to the crowded Cornell Square Park on Sept. 19, authorities said.

There, police said, they unleashed a hail of bullets on the people gathered, wounding 13 — including 3-year-old Devonte Howard — and drew a national spotlight on the issue of Chicago gun violence.


Charged with three counts of attempted first-degree murder and three counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, Humphries, 20, was ordered held without bail on Wednesday. Humphries was on the street after being accused of another murder in July, and posting 10 percent of his $500,000 bail.

2 months..........and he killed people........where did he get 50,000 dollars....and which politician helped him get out on bond.....

And one of the other shooters....got out through a boot camp program....on a gun charge.....


Champ, the "main player" in the Cornell Square Park shooting, had been convicted of gun possession as a felon last year, Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said at a news conference.

A judge sent Champ to boot camp, and he was released when he completed the program.

“If Bryon Champ is not on the street — as he shouldn’t have been — this incident likely does not occur," said McCarthy, who has advocated stricter sentencing for gun crimes. “He received boot camp for that gun crime and was back out on the streets to be a part of this senseless shooting."

it isn't guns.....it is prosecutors and politicians who preach..."gun crime, gun crime..." and then let the shooters go with little or no jail time...

So we aren't locking up too many people....we aren't locking up the actual gun criminals long enough....

 

[2aguy]

And here you have another case from Richmond, California....17 criminals responsible for 70% of the shooting...do you think any of them are felons...and have been caught with illegal guns before...and yet are still on the street shooting at people.....?


Richmond CA Anti-Crime Program Focuses On People Not Guns...And It s Working - The Truth About Guns


Boggan explained in a story that aired on This American Life earlier this year that his ‘aha’ moment in designing this program came when he was in a meeting with police officers who explained to him that they believed that seventeen guys were responsible for 70% of the shootings in the city of Richmond.

Devone Boggan: “17 people. And I’ll tell you, I almost flipped out of my chair. Cause I was like, 17 people? That’s nothing.”



and this is why Chicago is a shooting gallery...the gangs own the politicians...who keep them out of jail.....so no, guns aren't the problem...locking up these criminals is.....

Gangs and Politicians in Chicago An Unholy Alliance Chicago magazine January 2012

and how they affect sentencing and prison sentences...

Gangs and Politicians Prisoner Shuffle Chicago magazine January 2012

gang territory and homicide sites..

Chicago Gang Territory vs 2011 Chicago Homicides Chicago magazine The 312 December 2011

gangs and murder how many do they do....the stats..

Gangs and Politicians How Gang Crime Stacks Up Chicago magazine January 2012

 

[2aguy]

Was the gun the problem or the fact that this guy had 22 arrests including attempted murder and was still on the streets....and then shot and murdered a police officer.......

Alleged Cop Killer Has 22 Prior Arrests NBC Chicago

Though just 24 years old, the man accused of shooting and killing a Chicago police officer earlier this week has already been arrested 22 times, including one arrest for shooting and wounding his own brother.

Why isn't attempted murder a life sentence....? He did this 4 years before this murder...and he was out on the street......that is the problem...not guns...

He actually confessed in that previous shooting.......

Brewer was arrested four years ago, accused of shooting his brother on Independence Day. Police said he made a confession at that time, but the aggravated battery case was later dismissed. Family members said Brewer has a history of mental illness, a fact that Weis could not confirm.

So no......we are not locking up too many people.....we are not locking up specific, violent criminals for long enough.........



Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/bryant-brewer-soderberg-98140599.html#ixzz3hAPSQTJd
Follow us: @nbcchicago on Twitter | nbcchicago on Facebook

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, you do. You also have a predominantly Caucasian population. One that has been decimated by two world wars in one hundred years. The aggressive ones were killed off. And, more to the point the violence in Europe is increasing. In the face of the strictest anti gun laws in the world, their gun crime rate is increasing. Overall they are more violent than the US, especially the UK. They haven't caught up to us in murders yet, but they will, sadly.

This isn't about race. Racial tension yes, but not race itself. Racial tension in the US is a massive factor in crime, and the govt is doing almost nothing to solve the problem.

Switzerland hasn't been decimated in two world wars, in fact they didn't participate in either with troops.

Violence in Europe isn't necessarily increasing. There have been increases but in general the governments are dealing with the problems and doing so in a manner that doesn't stick half the population in prison (over exaggeration in case you were wondering). There are still problems, but no where near the problems the US has.

Gun crime isn't necessarily increasing. It has increased as it becomes easier to get guns from outside into Europe, however gun crime in, say, London where there was a problem, has dropped in recent years. Different areas of Europe have different ways of dealing with things, however I'd feel much safer in any big European city than any big US city.

You say there are more violent crimes in the UK than the US. I'm going to dispute this.
I've had a conversation with a guy on here, and it basically turns out that only the statistics are higher in the UK than the US. The reality is the UK is more likely to include crimes in violent crime, and a crime like rape is far more likely to be reported in the UK than the US, therefore pumping up the statistics.

The estimates, as that is all we have, is that US rape is probably slightly higher than rape in the UK. But the stats are much lower because the US are literally not being pro-active about dealing with rape. The US is a white man's world.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Oh that's right.....everyone would be dead, except the bad guy.

Cincinnati man shoots at 1-year-old boy is shot by man with concealed carry permit Fox News

Just like the 5 killed in the recruiting station, two were armed and returned fire, yet died any whey, kinda sucks, but it does prove your theory wrong...

Not entirely. The two that were armed had a fighting chance. If either had succeeded, then the death toll would have been less.

A question. When has a military recruitment office been shot up in the UK, or Europe?