How would this have gone differently if guns were illegal?

I always take discussions that deal with the abrogation of my rights very seriously. Why don't you?
Because he tries to persuade his audience that "guns are evil" and criminal behavior is caused by by them and that is combined with his fear of firearms. Again the usual shifting the blame on objects and circumstances to excuse human behavior and removing the object of his fear.
 
Um...so you find it odd that places with higher crime rates have more people in prison. That confuses you. Seriously?

I find it odd that people say locking people up rather than any other form of crime prevention works. Because in the US people are locked up like kids eat candy. 707 people per 100,000 compared to 148 for the UK. Seriously?

Also, Louisiana having the highest rate of incarceration with their private prison system which encourages the police to lock people up and make them come back in the future, rather than rehabilitation. Louisiana also has a really bad crime rate. It's not working.

However people come out with the simple stuff, "criminals need to be responsible for their actions", the problem is who is responsible for the ineptitude of politicians who are in charge of a society which is broken and which is breeding criminals?

Yep, it's be the "criminals" again.

Single cause fallacy
 
It's the same story every time with weirdo. He is confronted with a specific topic, he launches on some tangent, then accuses people of "derailing" the discussion when they won't engage in the tangent with him; he then spends pages throwing around insults as he tries to argue that his tangent is the "real" topic. It's damn pathetic.
 
The US government has adopted policies that ensure racial hatred and violence will increase. It's all part of the divide and conquer mentality that progressives have. Unity is never their goal. They only thrive when people are miserable and at each others throats.

Switzerland is expensive as hell to live in, and 99.5% Caucasian.

Violence in Europe is increasing at a rapid rate. What planet do you live on again? The UK is leading the pack.. They witnessed a 77% increase in violent crime over a period of a few years thanks to progressive policies.

"Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.
The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.
Opposition leaders said the disclosures were a "damning indictment" of the Government's failure to tackle deep-rooted social problems.
The figures combined crime statistics for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The UK had a greater number of murders in 2007 than any other EU country – 927 – and at a relative rate higher than most western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain."

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

Gun crime in the US is decreasing, save in progressive controlled cities. There it is either increasing or holding steady.


You just say a few things then shove in "progressives" every so often.

Do you know what the biggest problem in the US is right now? Both the Republicans and Democrats. Don't kid yourself that the republican policies are in any way designed to unite people. They're policies will only unite people if everyone stops supporting the democrats and loves the Republicans, and it isn't going to happen, is it?

Basically both sides spend their whole time fighting each other and as little to no time actually trying to find out what is the way to make things actually work.

As for the UK and Europe. Yes, the UK went through a period of a rise in crime. This was generally due to a rise in gangs from other countries, mostly Jamaica, coming in and changing how crime was being conducted in the UK. However what the police and government did was tackle the problem, and the problem is being reduced. In the US all that would have happened would be each side would have slagged each other off for causing the problem and done nothing about it.

th


UK crime rates have been going down for more than 10 years.

Yes, the UK has a higher murder rate than many European countries. Norway had, in one set of stats a more than double murder rate, however I get the feeling that was because of that one killing that took place in 2011.
However the "really high" murder rate in the UK is 1.0 per 100,000. Compared to a range of about 0.6 to 1.0 being the norm for European countries. Compared to 4.7 for the US, or 10.8 for Louisiana, or 4.6 for Alaska.

You say gun stats are going down. Alaska's isn't. Their 4.6 is up from 3.1 in 2009.

Louisana's is up from 1999 when it was 10.7, it goes up, comes down, goes up, comes down. It's lower than the 1990s when it was getting up to 20, however it isn't going below 10 where it was in the 1960s.

Then again a state like New York is seeing murder rates at "only" 3.3 which has been going down, or Connecticut which is at 2.4 and has been dropping after a rise around 2010.
Seems a lot of the murder rate in the US is dropping because of more liberal states seeing more of a drop.

As for UK violent crime states. Again, the UK reports a lot more than the US, it's difficult to compare.




The crime rate in the UK has been rising for the last 25 years. The "dip" in reported crimes came when the Metropolitan Police decided to classify all crimes at a single address as one crime. So, take your average apartment block. 18 crimes go down there in a weekend. According to the police that is ONE crime.



Police did alter crime figures, admits Met chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe

"Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe told MPs that the preliminary results of an internal inquiry had already indicated that some of the allegations by Met Pc James Patrick that crimes such as burglary and rape had been wrongly downgraded or written off were accurate.

Sir Bernard’s admission came during a tense appearance in front of the Commons Public Administration Committee during which he also admitted to inadvertently misquoting a report he had written himself."

Police did alter crime figures admits Met chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - Crime - News - London Evening Standard

There have been changes in the way crimes were reported. However the police under-reporting crimes isn't new. It's not new for the UK, it's not new for the first world either. The US has major under-reporting of crimes too.

The article you reported is from London. Does it happen elsewhere? Probably. Was it happening before? Probably. Does this mean there was a dip in the statistics because the Met Police were under-reporting crimes? Not necessarily. Again, what was going on before.

Manipulating crime statistics

"The main problem is that the data reported in this annual report are among the most unreliable of all social data. They often become mired in politics and bureaucratic manipulation to put forward a positive image about the criminal justice system's response to crime. In fact, in recent years many police departments have been caught "cooking the books" concerning their official crime statistics. Some police administrators may knowingly falsify crime reports by undervaluing the cost of stolen goods, or report a "larceny from a person" that was an ordinary pick pocketing as a "robbery" (or vice versa), or even exaggerate the number of "gangs," and "gang members” in order to get federal funding to create or increase the size of a "gang unit."

Expert FBI Manipulated Crime Stats to Show Increase in Mass Shootings Alex Jones Infowars There s a war on for your mind

"
The Federal Bureau of Investigation purposely distorted its latest round of annual crime statistics in an attempt to make mass shootings appear more prevalent, an expert criminologist says."

Crime statistics are what they are. You have to understand them, and that can be very difficult.

As I said, comparing British violent crime statistics with US violent crime statistics is a minefield. The US's version of "violent crime" is so different from the UK's version. Also things like rape are treated differently so end up with different statistics, ie, the US's rate is extremely low for what probably actually exists.


Yeah.,....this just in today....

Grenade attacks in Sweden becoming regular....along with shootings....

Sweden s 3rd largest city hit by multiple blasts police plead for help to tackle violence spike RT News

Four grenade attacks this week have rocked Malmo, the third largest city in Sweden, prompting police to sound an alarm over the increasing violence. Multiple explosions, shootings and arson struck the city, which has a large migrant population.


On Sunday, the southern Swedish city of Malmo saw the fourth grenade attack in under a week as the a hand grenade was detonated in a car park in the district of Värnhem in the morning, local media reported.

The attack came after a blast on Friday in the Solbacken neighborhood, which occurred less than 12 hours after another explosion in the residential area of Limhamn in the west, and two days after a car bomb attack that injured a man outside a community center in the south.

“It is the thirtieth explosive attack since the New Year. We have a situation that is serious,” said the Malmö police chief, Stefan Sintéus, about the explosion on Friday, as quoted by the Local.se on Saturday.

The local police have called for expert help from the national police operational department. “We have asked for shared expertise on various issues,” said Lars Förstell, a spokesperson for the city’s police, as quoted by the media.

This week’s unrest continues a series of numerous shootings, explosions and arsons that have occurred since the beginning of the year in Malmo, infamous for high crime rates, multi-ethnic and gang-related violence.


on Sweden being the rape capitol of Europe...

The Swedes and the Clash of Civilizations Roger s Rules
 
Who knows. What's the murder rate in the UK and Canada again?

Higher than Switzerland.
While Switzerland has high gun ownership it is directly linked to military service and everyone has months military training, all guns are locked away, properly maintained...
Switzerland is also a wealthy country with twice the GDP per Captia of US...

If you want to use Switzerland as an example of high gun ownership then adopt Swis gun law...
 
And apparently shootings have been going up in Sweden as well...this is from 2010, now add that with the grenade attack stories today......immigration is not helping Europe stay non violent....

Rise in shootings puts strain on Malm police - The Local

“There were a lot of shootings during the latter part of 2011. It is a tough situation right now,” said Hans Nilsson of the Skåne county police to daily Svenska Dagbladet (SvD).
 
Who knows. What's the murder rate in the UK and Canada again?

Higher than Switzerland.
While Switzerland has high gun ownership it is directly linked to military service and everyone has months military training, all guns are locked away, properly maintained...
Switzerland is also a wealthy country with twice the GDP per Captia of US...

If you want to use Switzerland as an example of high gun ownership then adopt Swis gun law...


Really......you want every home to be required to have an AR-15...by law.......I am against mandatory gun ownership...and their model would not work here....too many gangs and too much gang violence......

And military training has little to do with not having a lot of shootings.....culture...not guns........because they have a lot of guns, and very little violence....

Our violence, by the way, is confined primarily to inner city gangs.....just like in France, Australia and other european countries....and in Europe.....immigrants from the 3rd world, who do not share the non violent culture of Europe, are slowly turning European crime stats up...not down.....
 
And here we find more violence in peaceful Sweden, the rape capitol of Europe......did you know that guns are the most effective way for women to stop a rape....?

Wait....what....Sweden has gang and gun violence.......say it ain't so...and it is going up, not down.....?

Violence Erupts in Sweden as Ethnic Groups Clash in Race Riots Sputnik International


Two hand grenades were thrown towards an apartment block on the same road on June 20, but none of them exploded. One person was taken to hospital with non-life threatening injuries after a shooting in the Söderkulla square in Malmö. Police are also investigating a separate shooting on Ramel's street in the Rosengård area of Malmö on Monday morning.

Decades of Immigration and Ethnic Tensions


Malmö has experienced growing violence in recent years. Some of its inner-city areas and suburbs have a reputation for gun and gang-related crimes as well as race-related violence between different immigrant groups.

So the apparent preference for weapons in Sweden is Grenades and guns...not just guns.....that seems to be a cultural difference between America and Sweden...interesting......



Read more: Violence Erupts in Sweden as Ethnic Groups Clash in Race Riots Sputnik International
 
Who knows. What's the murder rate in the UK and Canada again?

Higher than Switzerland.
While Switzerland has high gun ownership it is directly linked to military service and everyone has months military training, all guns are locked away, properly maintained...
Switzerland is also a wealthy country with twice the GDP per Captia of US...

If you want to use Switzerland as an example of high gun ownership then adopt Swis gun law...

Why do you liberals constantly move the goal post? A country-to-country comparison is used to try drawing a correlation between ownership and availability of guns and crime rates. I offer an alternate country-to-country comparison to demonstrate that such correlation does not exist. And all of a sudden you liberals want to say it's socioeconomic factors. Pick a goal post and go with it. Stop moving it around every time someone splits the uprights.
 
Wait....did anyone hear about this serial shooter in Sweden in 2009-10....? I know I didn't .....

Wow.....look at the list........from the Rape capitol of Europe....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Malmö_shootings


The following shootings have been connected to the same suspect:[16][17][18][19]

  1. 10 October 2009 – 20-year-old Trez West Persson is shot and killed while sitting in a car in Västra Skrävlinge Kyrkoväg, near Malmö Mosque. Her 21-year-old friend, who is dark-skinned, is seriously injured.
  2. 23 October 2009 – Several shots are fired against an apartment in Hyacintgatan.
  3. 31 December 2009 – Shots are fired against the Malmö Mosque on Jägersrovägen. No one is hit, but an imam is injured in the neck by broken glass.
  4. 25 January 2010 – A 17-year-old boy is shot in the chest and a 36-year-old man in the leg outside a store in Rasmusgatan. Police suspect the 17-year-old was the target, while the 36-year-old was shot by accident.
  5. 12 March 2010 – Shots are fired against a house in Hårds väg. The target is probably the 22-year-old who escaped the attack on 10 October.
  6. 16 March 2010 – A 21-year-old and a 22-year-old are attacked at close range while sitting in a car in Professorsgatan. The 21-year-old is hit several times, while the 21-year-old escapes unscathed.
  7. 19 June 2010 – Three African men are shot at while exiting a taxi in Regementsgatan. One is hit, but receives only a burn wound.
  8. 26 June 2010 – A 30-year-old man is shot through the window of a gym in Vendelfridsgatan. He is hit twice in the back.
  9. 27 June 2010 – Only 40 minutes after the previous shooting, a 29-year-old is shot in the shoulder while sitting in a car in Munkhättegatan.
  10. 24 August 2010 – A fast food restaurant in Köpenhamnsvägen is shot at. The bullet goes straight through the building and hits a car at the other side, but no one is hit. The owner claims to have seen a laser light immediately before the shot was fired.
  11. 25 September 2010 – A 31-year-old man receives a flesh wound to the head when he is shot outside of the university hospital.
  12. 10 October 2010 – A 47-year-old man is shot in the stomach at the bus stop by the intersection of Lönngatan and Norra Grängesbergsgatan. The bullet goes through his body, but the injuries are not serious.
  13. 19 October 2010 – In an incident similar to the one of 10 October, a 28-year-old man is shot in the back at close range while waiting for the bus by Eriksfältsgatan. The bullet pierces the victim's lung, leaving serious damage.
  14. 21 October 2010 – A 16-year-old boy is fired at by Hermodalstorget, but he is not hit.
  15. 21 October 2010 – On the same night, two women are shot through a window in Kroksbäck.

But.......President obama assured us this didn't happen in Europe...........does this mean he lied?
 
While Switzerland has high gun ownership it is directly linked to military service and everyone has months military training,
How does that impact gun ownership? The right to gun ownership is tied to military service?
all guns are locked away,
Locked away where? At their homes and government has the padlock keys?
properly maintained...
…interesting, and how does that impact the right to gun ownership?
Switzerland is also a wealthy country with twice the GDP per Captia of US...
So, "poverty" is responsible for gun violence?
Or, if a country is wealthy then it is OK to keep locked away, properly maintained guns…
If you want to use Switzerland as an example of high gun ownership then adopt Swis gun law...
Switzerland was used as an illustration that it is not the gun but the person pulling the trigger is responsible, it is not the abundance of firearms what causes gun violence.
 
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Europe is seeing an increase in violence because they are importing people from 3rd world countries who are more used to violence than Europeans are......and as they increase these immigrant communities they will see more American levels of inner city crime as cultures clash.......ours are from gangs created by democrat governing policies, theirs comes from immigrants with cultures vastly different from European culture..the results will be the same....

Another shooting in Roseng rd. Was Fox News right about Malm 12 years ago Swedish Surveyor


2015-06-04 -On Wednesday night, at 19.30 a 35-year-old man was found by emergency services in a car after having been shot in the head in Rosengård, one of Malmös “no-go zones“.

The man was transported to the hospital and the police have labelled the crime attempted murder/manslaughter.

On a more positive note: 6 men (ethnicity withheld) were indicted this Tuesday for the bombings which plagued Malmö last year.

[…] Rosengard was once one of the programme’s proudest achievements: a high-rise development that was close to the centre of Malmö, one of Sweden’s industrial powerhouses, but surrounded by open space. Today over 80% of its population of 24,000 are immigrants. The local shops have names such as Babylon and Lebanon. Women in hijabs and headscarves cart their shopping through the freezing rain. Men sit in cafés drinking strong coffee and keeping dry. A truck sells falafel sandwiches.

[…] Mass immigration is posing serious problems for the region. For the Nordic countries to be able to afford their welfare states they need to have 80% of their adults in the workforce, but labour-force participation among non-European immigrants is much lower than that. In Sweden only 51% of non-Europeans have a job, compared with over 84% of native Swedes. The Nordic countries need to persuade their citizens that they are getting a good return on their taxes, but mass immigration is creating a class of people who are permanently dependent on the state.

the Economist, Feb 2nd 2013


So...the welfare states of Europe.....not working out as dreamingly as the let on are they?
 

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

Making sense gets you nowhere with gun nuts.
Arms ownership is part of the Constitution… why do you call people "gun nuts" who actually respect and uphold the Constitution and not pissing on part of it you don't like.
 

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

Making sense gets you nowhere with gun nuts.
Arms ownership is part of the Constitution… why do you call people "gun nuts" who actually respect and uphold the Constitution and not pissing on part of it you don't like.


The framers had a lot of good ideas. This wasn't one of them.
 

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

Making sense gets you nowhere with gun nuts.
Arms ownership is part of the Constitution… why do you call people "gun nuts" who actually respect and uphold the Constitution and not pissing on part of it you don't like.


The framers had a lot of good ideas. This wasn't one of them.


Do you realize that Americans use guns over 2 million times a year on average to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives......versus only 8,454 guns used to commit murder by gangs and drug dealers in democrat inner cities?


Do you realize that guns are the most effective way for a woman to stop a rape.....or do you not care about stopping rapes?


Or how about the mass murder of unarmed people by their governments around the world....like in Mexico..where the government soldiers and police work alongside vicious drug cartels to murder thousands of unarmed Mexican citizens every year.....unarmed citizens......

Or the fact that unarmed Rwandan citizens were killed by machete to the tune of 800,000 dead, while soldiers from the most advanced countries in the world, specifically in the country to stop the killings, did nothing to stop the slaughter.......

Unarmed civilians suffer far more from criminals and government atrocities than armed citizens do....you choose the deaths of innocent people to allowing them to be armed...right?
 

If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

Making sense gets you nowhere with gun nuts.
Arms ownership is part of the Constitution… why do you call people "gun nuts" who actually respect and uphold the Constitution and not pissing on part of it you don't like.


The framers had a lot of good ideas. This wasn't one of them.


Do you realize that Americans use guns over 2 million times a year on average to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives.....
Yeah, the last time this bullshit stat was brought up I issued a challenge.

For there to be 2,000,000 instances a year where guns were used to stop a VIOLENT CRIMINAL ATTACK, that would be 5,480 times a day, every day. You'd figure about 1/2 of them would make the news. Yet that challenge went unanswered.

So I will now issue it to you. Find me 50 links to individual times where a gun was used to stop a VIOLENT CRIMINAL ATTACK in the US next Wednesday. I would bet you can't find 20 much less 50, and certainly not 2,740 times which would be half.

The statistic is pure bullshit. Just like you.
 
If the man hadn't have been able to get a gun in the first place then what?

If the man had been able to buy a gun but it had cost a lot more, and he knew it was more likely to be confiscated by the police if ever found, then what?

Some facts. The US locks up more people than every country except one. It's lock up rate is 707 per 100,000, only the Seychelles has higher. England and Wales has 148. So, for every prisoner in the UK, the US has 4.7.

The US has a murder rate of 4.7 per 100,000. The UK has 1.0 per 100,000.

Supposedly locking people up helps reduce crime.

Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate in the US, and higher crime rates than most states. Clearly that doesn't work.

The US has more guns, more murder, more people in prison. Simple.

Making sense gets you nowhere with gun nuts.
Arms ownership is part of the Constitution… why do you call people "gun nuts" who actually respect and uphold the Constitution and not pissing on part of it you don't like.


The framers had a lot of good ideas. This wasn't one of them.


Do you realize that Americans use guns over 2 million times a year on average to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives.....
Yeah, the last time this bullshit stat was brought up I issued a challenge.

For there to be 2,000,000 instances a year where guns were used to stop a VIOLENT CRIMINAL ATTACK, that would be 5,480 times a day, every day. You'd figure about 1/2 of them would make the news. Yet that challenge went unanswered.

So I will now issue it to you. Find me 50 links to individual times where a gun was used to stop a VIOLENT CRIMINAL ATTACK in the US next Wednesday. I would bet you can't find 20 much less 50, and certainly not 2,740 times which would be half.

The statistic is pure bullshit. Just like you.


Sorry....most self defense with a gun doesn't require shooting the criminal, so not newsworthy......then you have criminals held for police without a shot being fired, not newsworthy, and then you have those occasions where someone is shot and injured or killed....rare events in the self defense with a gun world. And of those stories...most are not covered by national media...you have to go thru all the local news outlets to find them...because the media has an anit gun bias....

It has to be caught on video or leave bodies on the ground....

40 years of actual research by economists and criminologists say you are wrong......you are full of the bullshit.....

Studies also show that guns are the best way to stop rape.....
 

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