How would you define a stolen election?

[Seymour Flops]

My honest hypothetical answer is I don't know. I do not think it's something that could ever happen and remain hidden. Since it's not within the realm of possibility you may as well be asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Any answer to an unanswerable question is meaningless.

I'll respectfully agree to disagree with that. The idea of a stolen election is not a philosophical fallacy. Defining an election as a process in which the people decide an issue, purported elections are stolen all the time. You could argue that it doesn't happen in the United States, but it certainly happens in other parts of the world and has happened in history.

Again with respect, I expected some posters to basically say that it's an impossible question, in that stolen elections do not/cannot happen. I can't imagine a motivation for such an obvious falsehood, other than to always be able to deny that any election was stolen.

I know Democrats think cheating to win an election is all part of the game. COVID pushed the door wide open. If it happens again in 2024, I don't know if the current system will survive. I do know this:

If the lid blows off because half the population loses confidence that we live in a democratic republic and a breakdown ensues, the half of the country that would be furious will be far better equiped to survive than the latte-drinking, pronoun obsessed, unarmed, uncoordinated, and spoiled by modern convenience non-specific people who think it would be cute to do it again.

 

[Seymour Flops]

It highlights, in my view, the genius of the Electoral college to some extent.

If you did have one cell of highly localized, highly organized, highly loyal, highly motivated folks bent on turning an election, maintaining operational security, who have access to a network of voters whose votes are going to be both valid as well as undetectable in terms of duplicity, fraud, or any other nefarious means...they can, at worse, they could only sway one state's electoral vote. Also keep in mind, that even while all of these votes are happening for the President, they also will have to pass the scrutiny of the civic and statewide races as well. That only the blob was screaming election fraud is telling...what about the down ballot races that were affected by all of these alleged fraudulent ballots?

The people harvesting the ballots didn't have time to check the down ballot boxes for each one.

Other than that, your post makes sense, though I disagree with it.

 

[candycorn]

The people harvesting the ballots didn't have time to check the down ballot boxes for each one.

Wow, could you imagine if that were really happening?

Other than that, your post makes sense, though I disagree with it.

What is your threshold for when irregularities becomes "stealing"?

 

[candycorn]

I'll respectfully agree to disagree with that. The idea of a stolen election is not a philosophical fallacy. Defining an election as a process in which the people decide an issue, purported elections are stolen all the time. You could argue that it doesn't happen in the United States, but it certainly happens in other parts of the world and has happened in history.

Again with respect, I expected some posters to basically say that it's an impossible question, in that stolen elections do not/cannot happen. I can't imagine a motivation for such an obvious falsehood, other than to always be able to deny that any election was stolen.

I know Democrats think cheating to win an election is all part of the game. COVID pushed the door wide open. If it happens again in 2024, I don't know if the current system will survive. I do know this:

If the lid blows off because half the population loses confidence that we live in a democratic republic and a breakdown ensues, the half of the country that would be furious will be far better equiped to survive than the latte-drinking, pronoun obsessed, unarmed, uncoordinated, and spoiled by modern convenience non-specific people who think it would be cute to do it again.

So the tirade begins I see.

All too predictable. Look dude...if you REALLY thought the 2020 election were stolen and you REALLY were the patriot you claim to be, you'd not be on a message board asking hypothetical questions. You'd be taking action so keep the prophecy in check. You're making an ass of yourself.

The fact is that in both cases, you know there was no sizable fraud in the 2020 election because no sizable fraud was discovered despite all of the audits from hand-picked auditors, despite the repeated court challenges, and despite the ridiculous excuses ranging from Hunter Biden's silly laptop October-snoozeprize to Trump being sabotaged by his own party.

 

[konradv]

Every election has some irregularities, some rules that aid one side or the other, undue influence, and some anectdotal cases of cheating. No election is perfect. But at some point, if the fraudulent voting, rule changing, influencing, and rigging go too far, the election is a sham.

Where does an election cross the line from essentially fair to foul such that the election is delegitamized?

If possible, give a generic non-partisan principle, before launching into a partisan tirade.

I encourage the tirade, I would just like to see a real answer first.

Thanks!

It crosses the line when you have actual evidence of cheating, not just theories. So far, theories are all I and the judges in the numerous cases have seen.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Wow, could you imagine if that were really happening?

What? Ballot harvesting? I don't have to imagine that happening. Do you think it did not? I think you misremember your talking points. Democrats were saying that ballot harvesting should be perfectly legal, not that it wasn't happening. Unfortunately for this prominent Democrat and her co-conspirator, it was not legal in her state:

Authorities say Fuentes and Juarez participated in “ballot harvesting.” That's a practice once used by both political parties to boost turnout but was made illegal by a 2016 state law that barred anyone but a family member or caregiver from returning early ballots for another person. It’s the only case filed so far by the state attorney general under the law, which the U.S. Supreme Court upheld last year.

Authorities say Fuentes, a former San Luis mayor, ran a sophisticated operation using her status in Democratic politics in the Arizona border city to persuade voters to let her gather and, in some cases, fill out their ballots. But the crime she admitted in court last month does not involve filling out ballots or any broader efforts.

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-07-07/sentencing-set-for-2-in-arizona-ballot-harvesting-case

So the tirade begins I see.

All too predictable. Look dude...if you REALLY thought the 2020 election were stolen and you REALLY were the patriot you claim to be, you'd not be on a message board asking hypothetical questions. You'd be taking action so keep the prophecy in check. You're making an ass of yourself.

The fact is that in both cases, you know there was no sizable fraud in the 2020 election because no sizable fraud was discovered despite all of the audits from hand-picked auditors, despite the repeated court challenges, and despite the ridiculous excuses ranging from Hunter Biden's silly laptop October-snoozeprize to Trump being sabotaged by his own party.

I did say that tirades are encouraged.

So now we get somewhere. You claim that there was no sizable fraud, so you admit that there was indeed fraud. How could you not, right? So back to the question. How much fraud does it take for an election to have been stolen?

What is your threshold for when irregularities becomes "stealing"?

I didn't lead with my own opinion, because I didn't want the thread to be about my opinion and other posters attacking it. I wanted to see if Democrats specifically would state their position on when fraud gets to the point that it is fair to say the election was stolen.

It is relevant now, because if Trump runs in 2024, the Democratic media will not want to ask any Republican who is also running any question or listen to anything they have to say other than "Was the 2020 election stolen?" I know there will be many "clever" threads started by Democrats with the subject line, "Senator _________ (R) stumped when asked if 2020 election was stolen."

 

[BWK]

Every election has some irregularities, some rules that aid one side or the other, undue influence, and some anectdotal cases of cheating. No election is perfect. But at some point, if the fraudulent voting, rule changing, influencing, and rigging go too far, the election is a sham.

Where does an election cross the line from essentially fair to foul such that the election is delegitamized?

If possible, give a generic non-partisan principle, before launching into a partisan tirade.

I encourage the tirade, I would just like to see a real answer first.

Thanks!

A stolen election was attempted by way of the Big Lie. Even Fox News knew that on election night;

 

[Seymour Flops]

Well, here's my answer:

In order to legitimately call an election "stolen," I would say that two things would have to happen.

1) Widespread opportunities to easily cheat, with such opportunities being made available late in the election cycle, but peoplw who would reasonable be expected to support the candidate(s) most likely to benefit from the cheating.

2) A very unexpected win by a candidate who appeared to have little chance, according to legitimate polls.

3) The above being so clear and obvious to all but those so partisan that support the cheating, that state lawmakers do not want to certify the results from their own state, being willing to not send electors to avoid sending fraudulent electors.

4) Some action by the courts to force those state lawmakers to send electors they chose not to certify.

By that standard, 2020 was a corrupted election, riddled with cheating, but not a stolen election.

IMHO.

 

[Lastamender]

The real answer is that with our present sytem the larger the election the more impossible it becomes to do anything nefarious to change the outcome. You can steal a local election if it is very, very close. Other than that the only current option to rig an election is to depress turnout.

 

[candycorn]

What? Ballot harvesting? I don't have to imagine that happening. Do you think it did not? I think you misremember your talking points. Democrats were saying that ballot harvesting should be perfectly legal, not that it wasn't happening. Unfortunately for this prominent Democrat and her co-conspirator, it was not legal in her state:

Authorities say Fuentes and Juarez participated in “ballot harvesting.” That's a practice once used by both political parties to boost turnout but was made illegal by a 2016 state law that barred anyone but a family member or caregiver from returning early ballots for another person. It’s the only case filed so far by the state attorney general under the law, which the U.S. Supreme Court upheld last year.

Authorities say Fuentes, a former San Luis mayor, ran a sophisticated operation using her status in Democratic politics in the Arizona border city to persuade voters to let her gather and, in some cases, fill out their ballots. But the crime she admitted in court last month does not involve filling out ballots or any broader efforts.

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-07-07/sentencing-set-for-2-in-arizona-ballot-harvesting-case

And....in he post I responded to, you said someone else was filling out the ballots for people and "didn't have time" to check boxes in down ballot races. As if that takes any real amount of time at all. Your allegation was baseless nonsense.

I did say that tirades are encouraged.

So now we get somewhere. You claim that there was no sizable fraud, so you admit that there was indeed fraud. How could you not, right? So back to the question. How much fraud does it take for an election to have been stolen?

You claimed that there were irregularities in every election. I agree.

When fraud is alleged, it should be investigated. It was. Those who were caught have been arrested and those who were tried and found guilty...prosecuted. If there is enough fraud exposed to swing a state, that needs to be examined by state election officials I suppose.

I didn't lead with my own opinion, because I didn't want the thread to be about my opinion and other posters attacking it. I wanted to see if Democrats specifically would state their position on when fraud gets to the point that it is fair to say the election was stolen.

It is relevant now, because if Trump runs in 2024, the Democratic media will not want to ask any Republican who is also running any question or listen to anything they have to say other than "Was the 2020 election stolen?" I know there will be many "clever" threads started by Democrats with the subject line, "Senator _________ (R) stumped when asked if 2020 election was stolen."

I have no idea what you're talking about. But it is funny how none of you guys are wanting to audit any elections where you win...only the ones where you lose.

 

[Care4all]

1) Widespread opportunities to easily cheat, with such opportunities being made available late in the election cycle, but peoplw who would reasonable be expected to support the candidate(s) most likely to benefit from the cheating

Like what?

 

[Care4all]

2) A very unexpected win by a candidate who appeared to have little chance, according to legitimate polls

Since January 2020 Trump was losing in all polling to Biden....every month until the election...

Even Trump's own campaign internal polling....he was losing to Biden.

 

[Care4all]

3) The above being so clear and obvious to all but those so partisan that support the cheating, that state lawmakers do not want to certify the results from their own state, being willing to not send electors to avoid sending fraudulent electors

The only way for cheating to be clear cut, is for cheating to actually happen, and evidence brought to court.

Partisan state legislatures should NEVER EVER USURP THE PEOPLE'S VOTE. Elections would never be trusted again if you throw out the citizen's vote for their own representatives in government! One man, one vote.....for their government rulers,

not the govt rulers choosing themselves or their team.

 

[Care4all]

4) Some action by the courts to force those state lawmakers to send electors they chose not to certify

Huh? Say what?

 

[there4eyeM]

One definition could be when two or more political parties conspire to conduct the same programs and represent the same vested interests no matter who "wins".

 

[Lisa558]

I think part of the problem is that “stolen” can have many meanings, and I would instead call the 2020 election “fraudulent.”

So, what made it fraudulent?

Think of the purpose of the election: it is to see who American voters want as the president. It is NOT to 1) harvest ballots from gullible, ignorant, and/or uninterested people who never would have voted if left to their own, and 2) to have the DNC coordinate wih liberal social media and news programs to hide stories that would, if known, give the win to the Republican.

Both happened in this election. It was NOT the measure of whom Americans wanted as president, given the fraud that occurred. Trump would have been the winner, had the election been held with the correct intent: to determine who most voters wanted as president.

 

[candycorn]

I think part of the problem is that “stolen” can have many meanings, and I would instead call the 2020 election “fraudulent.”

So, what made it fraudulent?

Think of the purpose of the election: it is to see who American voters want as the president. It is NOT to 1) harvest ballots from gullible, ignorant, and/or uninterested people who never would have voted if left to their own, and 2) to have the DNC coordinate wih liberal social media and news programs to hide stories that would, if known, give the win to the Republican.

Both happened in this election. It was NOT the measure of whom Americans wanted as president, given the fraud that occurred. Trump would have been the winner, had the election been held with the correct intent: to determine who most voters wanted as president.

Quite the imagination you have there.

Please tell us how the GOP actually picked up seats in Congress during all of this supposed fraud.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Quite the imagination you have there.

Please tell us how the GOP actually picked up seats in Congress during all of this supposed fraud.

I notice you do NOT deny that Dems harvested ballots from gullible and uninterested voters nor that they coordinated with "journalists" and social media to hide stories.

The ballot harvesters had to work too fast to bother with down ballot races.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Huh? Say what?

In other words if a swing state's lawmakers determine that it's own election was so riddled with fraud that it would be fraudulent to certify electors, but then the courts forced them to.

 

[candycorn]

I notice you do NOT deny that Dems harvested ballots from gullible and uninterested voters nor that they coordinated with "journalists" and social media to hide stories.

No need to acknowledge such a flaky, idiotic conspiracy theory. I noticed you didn't provide anything but the usual anecdotal evidence.

The ballot harvesters had to work too fast to bother with down ballot races.

Oh brother....

Did that sound as stupid in your head before you said it as it looks to us?