I don’t understand why republicans are so selective about the definition of socialism

[Oldstyle]

So you're claiming that our system was doomed until FDR "saved" it? You're an amusing fellow, Joey! Speaking as a History major I'd like to commend you on your total lack of understanding of what made the United States great and what continues to make it great!

Listening to you expound on world history makes me wonder where you studied the subject? Or didn't...

I have a bachelor degree in history from UIC. True, it's not one of those universities that teaches about talking snakes, so there's that.

The first problem is, no history major would expound that the US is "Great". Frankly, we have just as much in our history to be ashamed of than proud of. You know, genocide of the Native Americans, slavery, exploitation of immigrant labor.

Second, um, yeah, the US probably would have slid into fascism if FDR hadn't saved it. As Herbert Hoover expounded,

View attachment 308408

It's an interesting "take" on American history, Joe when you declare that no history major would claim that America was "great" because of 3 things that took place in this nation that were not our finest moments! I disagree with your premise that those 3 things negate all of the truly great things that have been accomplished by this country! For literally hundreds of years the United States of America has been a shining "beacon on a hill" that oppressed people throughout the rest of the world looked to for hope and inspiration! We were the place that people with a dream came to make those dreams come true. We were the nation where your contributions to society mattered more than your social status! We were the nation where the strong fought to protect the rights of the weak! We were the nation where freedom of the press and freedom of religion were bedrock rights...a nation whose judicial system was the envy of the world! We were the nation that showed others that power could be transferred from one individual to another without warfare and coups...that it could be done in peaceful elections! We are the nation that was always there in times of crisis...the most generous nation in the history of the world!

To be quite frank with you...I've always found the intellectual left's narrative that America should be ashamed of what it is to be myopic in view. It's quite scary to think what might have happened to the world if the United States DIDN'T exist! Do we have our warts and blemishes? Of course...all nations do! But to claim that America isn't great is progressive hog wash!

 

[regent]

Why do America's most noted historians rate FDR as America's greatest president and have rated FDR the greatest almost as soon as he died?

 

[JoeB131]

t's an interesting "take" on American history, Joe when you declare that no history major would claim that America was "great" because of 3 things that took place in this nation that were not our finest moments! I disagree with your premise that those 3 things negate all of the truly great things that have been accomplished by this country!

Well, then you need to CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE.

As Malcolm X said, "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us."

Slavery was really really bad. You can still see the effects of it today. Same with the Genocide of Native Americans.

For literally hundreds of years the United States of America has been a shining "beacon on a hill" that oppressed people throughout the rest of the world looked to for hope and inspiration!

Not really. We need to get over ourselves.

We were the nation where your contributions to society mattered more than your social status!

Yup, if you are white and belong to the right ethnic group. We've really been a pecking order for most of our history... which is why all our presidents except Kennedy and Obama have been WASP's

To be quite frank with you...I've always found the intellectual left's narrative that America should be ashamed of what it is to be myopic in view. It's quite scary to think what might have happened to the world if the United States DIDN'T exist! Do we have our warts and blemishes? Of course...all nations do! But to claim that America isn't great is progressive hog wash!

Okay, I have actually thought of that. In that alternate future, Mexico would still own the west and would be a prosperous country, the Eastern US would join with Canada to be the Dominion of North America. OH MY GOD, the Founding Fathers Saved us from the ABJECT HORROR of being Canadians.

Assuming that most of Europe and the rest of the world would have evolved as it did in the 19th century, were the US wasn't that much of a factor, maybe they'd have made more imperial incursions into Latin America... maybe not.

World War I might have still happened, but after that, the whole course of history changes. If the Central Powers won, Nazism and Communism probably wouldn't have. Or maybe the Dominion of North America would have contributed to the British War effort earlier and turned the tide earlier.

 

[Oldstyle]

t's an interesting "take" on American history, Joe when you declare that no history major would claim that America was "great" because of 3 things that took place in this nation that were not our finest moments! I disagree with your premise that those 3 things negate all of the truly great things that have been accomplished by this country!

Well, then you need to CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE.

As Malcolm X said, "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us."

Slavery was really really bad. You can still see the effects of it today. Same with the Genocide of Native Americans.

For literally hundreds of years the United States of America has been a shining "beacon on a hill" that oppressed people throughout the rest of the world looked to for hope and inspiration!

Not really. We need to get over ourselves.

We were the nation where your contributions to society mattered more than your social status!

Yup, if you are white and belong to the right ethnic group. We've really been a pecking order for most of our history... which is why all our presidents except Kennedy and Obama have been WASP's

To be quite frank with you...I've always found the intellectual left's narrative that America should be ashamed of what it is to be myopic in view. It's quite scary to think what might have happened to the world if the United States DIDN'T exist! Do we have our warts and blemishes? Of course...all nations do! But to claim that America isn't great is progressive hog wash!

Okay, I have actually thought of that. In that alternate future, Mexico would still own the west and would be a prosperous country, the Eastern US would join with Canada to be the Dominion of North America. OH MY GOD, the Founding Fathers Saved us from the ABJECT HORROR of being Canadians.

Assuming that most of Europe and the rest of the world would have evolved as it did in the 19th century, were the US wasn't that much of a factor, maybe they'd have made more imperial incursions into Latin America... maybe not.

World War I might have still happened, but after that, the whole course of history changes. If the Central Powers won, Nazism and Communism probably wouldn't have. Or maybe the Dominion of North America would have contributed to the British War effort earlier and turned the tide earlier.

We need to "get over ourselves"? Why is that, Joey? Why do we need to beat ourselves up for our failures while ignoring the great things that we've done? The American Revolution paved the way for the French Revolution. You decry the rise of colonialization then ignore the role of America in showing colonial nations that they could be free from their European masters. The League of Nations paved the way for the United Nations. The Marshall Plan gave hope to millions and did more to stem the tide of communism than anything back then. We single handedly rebuilt the nations of Germany and Japan...our enemies...and made once fascist strongholds into strongholds of democracy. Our Constitution has been a template used by literally dozens of emerging nations to guarantee their citizens freedoms and to illustrate how other nations lacked those same freedoms!

 

[Oldstyle]

Was slavery a great wrong? Of course it was and we as a people fought a devastating war among ourselves to rid America of that wrong! We passed laws that protected civil rights. We elected blacks as leaders in areas where they had been slaves. We elected a black man to be the President of the United States! Think on that for a good long time, Joey! Then tell me again why the United States should "get over itself"!

 

[Andylusion]

So you know for the a fact, that the bank knew you were lying?

Actually, kind of a fact of life, the 2008 recession happened because the banks KNEW most of the people they were loaning money to weren't qualified for loans. They didn't care. They figured they could just reposess and resell at a profit.

And you know the EU was fully aware they were lying when they joined the EU?

.Yup. They have thousands of analysts and professionals...

They simply aren't capable of that level of incompetence.

It's this logic, that people dump coffee on themselves, and are shocked it is hot, and blame McDonald's for their own complete and total incompetence.

No, we blame McDonald's for continuing to serve coffee they KNEW was too hot for human consumption. Maybe before spouting off like a good little Corporate Toady, you need to educate yourself in the FACTS of that case.

If you agree to make a bad loan with me, how is that my responsibility? Is it my job to make sure you make wise choices, or your job? Your job. Period. End of story. You own your own choices. Not me.

You need to stop thinking in such a immature mindset. There is no one to blame for any choices you make in life, but you, and that goes for everyone, including me, and the choices nations make by the incompetent people they vote into office.

Again, if we had a system that looked out for consumers instead of bankers, the bankers would be more responsible.

Actually, kind of a fact of life, the 2008 recession happened because the banks KNEW most of the people they were loaning money to weren't qualified for loans. They didn't care. They figured they could just reposess and resell at a profit.

I'm not asking you if they accepted the risk of default because they knew they could recoup the cost in higher housing prices.

I'm asking if you can prove conclusively that banks absolutely knew for a fact, that individual borrowers were lying on their loan documents. Can you prove that claim. Yes or no.

Yup. They have thousands of analysts and professionals...
They simply aren't capable of that level of incompetence.

So assumption is a substitute for fact?
It's interesting, because there is a documentary from within Greece that I saw, where they found the Greek government itself, didn't even know what the real budget numbers were.

Now that's fascinating, give that the EU has nothing to go on, but what the Greek government gives them, and this documentary showed, that the government of Greece had actually defrauded itself, and had no idea how much they were spending.

No, we blame McDonald's for continuing to serve coffee they KNEW was too hot for human consumption. Maybe before spouting off like a good little Corporate Toady, you need to educate yourself in the FACTS of that case.

Bull. I served coffee at McDonald's myself. You have the right to be wrong, but you are just pointing out you are incompetent.

Again, if we had a system that looked out for consumers instead of bankers, the bankers would be more responsible.

It's not the job of everyone else to look out for your stupidity. People need to stop acting like pathetic children, and start acting like adults. Grow up. Grow some balls. Think before you sign papers.

This country was built by people, owning responsibility for themselves, not sitting around crying that society should own the responsibility for them.

 

[Andylusion]

So you're claiming that our system was doomed until FDR "saved" it? You're an amusing fellow, Joey! Speaking as a History major I'd like to commend you on your total lack of understanding of what made the United States great and what continues to make it great!

Listening to you expound on world history makes me wonder where you studied the subject? Or didn't...

I have a bachelor degree in history from UIC. True, it's not one of those universities that teaches about talking snakes, so there's that.

The first problem is, no history major would expound that the US is "Great". Frankly, we have just as much in our history to be ashamed of than proud of. You know, genocide of the Native Americans, slavery, exploitation of immigrant labor.

Second, um, yeah, the US probably would have slid into fascism if FDR hadn't saved it. As Herbert Hoover expounded,

View attachment 308408

Oh grow up. All you are doing is proving that UIC apparently graduates trash.

No, FDR didn't save anything. If anything FDR caused most of the problems which resulted in the great depression.

Ironically you citing Hoover is a perfect example. Hoover created all the social programs that caused the depression, and FDR doubled down on those programs making the depression last a decade.

 

[JoeB131]

We need to "get over ourselves"? Why is that, Joey? Why do we need to beat ourselves up for our failures while ignoring the great things that we've done?

Because we haven't corrected our failures yet, as Native American Reservations and ghettos prove.

You decry the rise of colonialization then ignore the role of America in showing colonial nations that they could be free from their European masters.

We also engaged in some rather nasty Colonialism ourselves, such as what we did to the Native Americans or our war in the Philippines. (1899- 1910) We treated a lot of those Latin American nations like our colonies...

The League of Nations paved the way for the United Nations.

After we refused to join it, and due in part to our isolationism, it failed to prevent World War II.

We single handedly rebuilt the nations of Germany and Japan...our enemies...and made once fascist strongholds into strongholds of democracy.

You give too little credit to the Germans and Japanese, both of which had Democracies before WWII.

Our Constitution has been a template used by literally dozens of emerging nations to guarantee their citizens freedoms and to illustrate how other nations lacked those same freedoms!

Yet, oddly, they didn't repeat a lot of our stupidity like slavery or the Electoral College, because that would be silly.

Was slavery a great wrong? Of course it was and we as a people fought a devastating war among ourselves to rid America of that wrong! We passed laws that protected civil rights. We elected blacks as leaders in areas where they had been slaves. We elected a black man to be the President of the United States! Think on that for a good long time, Joey! Then tell me again why the United States should "get over itself"!

We totally need to get over ourselves. The fact is we did elect a black man...and then YOUR half of the country completely lost it's fucking mind and elected a Nazi Game Show Host. We fought a war to end slavery and the immediately screwed up the peace and reconstruction afterwards, leading to 100 years of Jim Crow and a lot of fucking ugly statues they won't take down.

 

[JoeB131]

Oh grow up. All you are doing is proving that UIC apparently graduates trash.

No, FDR didn't save anything. If anything FDR caused most of the problems which resulted in the great depression.

Okay, the Great Depression hit in 1929. FDR didn't become President until 1933. Not sure how he "caused the problems" exactly... but never mind.

Bull. I served coffee at McDonald's myself. You have the right to be wrong, but you are just pointing out you are incompetent.

I'm sure you didn't serve the cup that burned Mrs. Lemek. But you really should educate yourself on the facts of the case. The coffee was too hot, hundreds of people got burned, and it took a lawsuit to get McDonald's to clean up it's act.

 

[Rigby5]

So you're claiming that our system was doomed until FDR "saved" it? You're an amusing fellow, Joey! Speaking as a History major I'd like to commend you on your total lack of understanding of what made the United States great and what continues to make it great!

Listening to you expound on world history makes me wonder where you studied the subject? Or didn't...

I have a bachelor degree in history from UIC. True, it's not one of those universities that teaches about talking snakes, so there's that.

The first problem is, no history major would expound that the US is "Great". Frankly, we have just as much in our history to be ashamed of than proud of. You know, genocide of the Native Americans, slavery, exploitation of immigrant labor.

Second, um, yeah, the US probably would have slid into fascism if FDR hadn't saved it. As Herbert Hoover expounded,

View attachment 308408

Oh grow up. All you are doing is proving that UIC apparently graduates trash.

No, FDR didn't save anything. If anything FDR caused most of the problems which resulted in the great depression.

Ironically you citing Hoover is a perfect example. Hoover created all the social programs that caused the depression, and FDR doubled down on those programs making the depression last a decade.

The Great Depression was caused mostly by banks over extending into stock market speculation, and by global tariff wars.
Social programs had nothing at all to do with it, and could not have anything to do with it, since the Great Depression was global.

Clearly FDR ended the Great Depression by starting WWII.

 

[Andylusion]

Oh grow up. All you are doing is proving that UIC apparently graduates trash.

No, FDR didn't save anything. If anything FDR caused most of the problems which resulted in the great depression.

Okay, the Great Depression hit in 1929. FDR didn't become President until 1933. Not sure how he "caused the problems" exactly... but never mind.

Bull. I served coffee at McDonald's myself. You have the right to be wrong, but you are just pointing out you are incompetent.

I'm sure you didn't serve the cup that burned Mrs. Lemek. But you really should educate yourself on the facts of the case. The coffee was too hot, hundreds of people got burned, and it took a lawsuit to get McDonald's to clean up it's act.

I actually explained that.

All of the programs that FDR did, were actually programs pioneered by Hoover. Those programs all made the recession, into a depression.

This isn't that complicated an idea. If you having someone put in place bad policies, and then you increase those bad policies... that makes you part of the problem. Not hard.

 

[Oldstyle]

We need to "get over ourselves"? Why is that, Joey? Why do we need to beat ourselves up for our failures while ignoring the great things that we've done?

Because we haven't corrected our failures yet, as Native American Reservations and ghettos prove.

You decry the rise of colonialization then ignore the role of America in showing colonial nations that they could be free from their European masters.

We also engaged in some rather nasty Colonialism ourselves, such as what we did to the Native Americans or our war in the Philippines. (1899- 1910) We treated a lot of those Latin American nations like our colonies...

The League of Nations paved the way for the United Nations.

After we refused to join it, and due in part to our isolationism, it failed to prevent World War II.

We single handedly rebuilt the nations of Germany and Japan...our enemies...and made once fascist strongholds into strongholds of democracy.

You give too little credit to the Germans and Japanese, both of which had Democracies before WWII.

Our Constitution has been a template used by literally dozens of emerging nations to guarantee their citizens freedoms and to illustrate how other nations lacked those same freedoms!

Yet, oddly, they didn't repeat a lot of our stupidity like slavery or the Electoral College, because that would be silly.

Was slavery a great wrong? Of course it was and we as a people fought a devastating war among ourselves to rid America of that wrong! We passed laws that protected civil rights. We elected blacks as leaders in areas where they had been slaves. We elected a black man to be the President of the United States! Think on that for a good long time, Joey! Then tell me again why the United States should "get over itself"!

We totally need to get over ourselves. The fact is we did elect a black man...and then YOUR half of the country completely lost it's fucking mind and elected a Nazi Game Show Host. We fought a war to end slavery and the immediately screwed up the peace and reconstruction afterwards, leading to 100 years of Jim Crow and a lot of fucking ugly statues they won't take down.

Let me get this straight...you're a History major...and you think Japan was a Democracy before WWII? Care to try again, Joey? You obviously don't know jack shit about Japan's history!

 

[Oldstyle]

We need to "get over ourselves"? Why is that, Joey? Why do we need to beat ourselves up for our failures while ignoring the great things that we've done?

Because we haven't corrected our failures yet, as Native American Reservations and ghettos prove.

You decry the rise of colonialization then ignore the role of America in showing colonial nations that they could be free from their European masters.

We also engaged in some rather nasty Colonialism ourselves, such as what we did to the Native Americans or our war in the Philippines. (1899- 1910) We treated a lot of those Latin American nations like our colonies...

The League of Nations paved the way for the United Nations.

After we refused to join it, and due in part to our isolationism, it failed to prevent World War II.

We single handedly rebuilt the nations of Germany and Japan...our enemies...and made once fascist strongholds into strongholds of democracy.

You give too little credit to the Germans and Japanese, both of which had Democracies before WWII.

Our Constitution has been a template used by literally dozens of emerging nations to guarantee their citizens freedoms and to illustrate how other nations lacked those same freedoms!

Yet, oddly, they didn't repeat a lot of our stupidity like slavery or the Electoral College, because that would be silly.

Was slavery a great wrong? Of course it was and we as a people fought a devastating war among ourselves to rid America of that wrong! We passed laws that protected civil rights. We elected blacks as leaders in areas where they had been slaves. We elected a black man to be the President of the United States! Think on that for a good long time, Joey! Then tell me again why the United States should "get over itself"!

We totally need to get over ourselves. The fact is we did elect a black man...and then YOUR half of the country completely lost it's fucking mind and elected a Nazi Game Show Host. We fought a war to end slavery and the immediately screwed up the peace and reconstruction afterwards, leading to 100 years of Jim Crow and a lot of fucking ugly statues they won't take down.

You think we were the only country that had slaves? Where did you go to school, Joey? Did they actually have books?

 

[Andylusion]

We need to "get over ourselves"? Why is that, Joey? Why do we need to beat ourselves up for our failures while ignoring the great things that we've done?

Because we haven't corrected our failures yet, as Native American Reservations and ghettos prove.

You decry the rise of colonialization then ignore the role of America in showing colonial nations that they could be free from their European masters.

We also engaged in some rather nasty Colonialism ourselves, such as what we did to the Native Americans or our war in the Philippines. (1899- 1910) We treated a lot of those Latin American nations like our colonies...

The League of Nations paved the way for the United Nations.

After we refused to join it, and due in part to our isolationism, it failed to prevent World War II.

We single handedly rebuilt the nations of Germany and Japan...our enemies...and made once fascist strongholds into strongholds of democracy.

You give too little credit to the Germans and Japanese, both of which had Democracies before WWII.

Our Constitution has been a template used by literally dozens of emerging nations to guarantee their citizens freedoms and to illustrate how other nations lacked those same freedoms!

Yet, oddly, they didn't repeat a lot of our stupidity like slavery or the Electoral College, because that would be silly.

Was slavery a great wrong? Of course it was and we as a people fought a devastating war among ourselves to rid America of that wrong! We passed laws that protected civil rights. We elected blacks as leaders in areas where they had been slaves. We elected a black man to be the President of the United States! Think on that for a good long time, Joey! Then tell me again why the United States should "get over itself"!

We totally need to get over ourselves. The fact is we did elect a black man...and then YOUR half of the country completely lost it's fucking mind and elected a Nazi Game Show Host. We fought a war to end slavery and the immediately screwed up the peace and reconstruction afterwards, leading to 100 years of Jim Crow and a lot of fucking ugly statues they won't take down.

Let me get this straight...you're a History major...and you think Japan was a Democracy before WWII? Care to try again, Joey? You obviously don't know jack shit about Japan's history!

Don't let him get to you. Keep your expectations low. Every once in a while, he'll trip over them, and you'll be surprised.

 

[Oldstyle]

We need to "get over ourselves"? Why is that, Joey? Why do we need to beat ourselves up for our failures while ignoring the great things that we've done?

Because we haven't corrected our failures yet, as Native American Reservations and ghettos prove.

You decry the rise of colonialization then ignore the role of America in showing colonial nations that they could be free from their European masters.

We also engaged in some rather nasty Colonialism ourselves, such as what we did to the Native Americans or our war in the Philippines. (1899- 1910) We treated a lot of those Latin American nations like our colonies...

The League of Nations paved the way for the United Nations.

After we refused to join it, and due in part to our isolationism, it failed to prevent World War II.

We single handedly rebuilt the nations of Germany and Japan...our enemies...and made once fascist strongholds into strongholds of democracy.

You give too little credit to the Germans and Japanese, both of which had Democracies before WWII.

Our Constitution has been a template used by literally dozens of emerging nations to guarantee their citizens freedoms and to illustrate how other nations lacked those same freedoms!

Yet, oddly, they didn't repeat a lot of our stupidity like slavery or the Electoral College, because that would be silly.

Was slavery a great wrong? Of course it was and we as a people fought a devastating war among ourselves to rid America of that wrong! We passed laws that protected civil rights. We elected blacks as leaders in areas where they had been slaves. We elected a black man to be the President of the United States! Think on that for a good long time, Joey! Then tell me again why the United States should "get over itself"!

We totally need to get over ourselves. The fact is we did elect a black man...and then YOUR half of the country completely lost it's fucking mind and elected a Nazi Game Show Host. We fought a war to end slavery and the immediately screwed up the peace and reconstruction afterwards, leading to 100 years of Jim Crow and a lot of fucking ugly statues they won't take down.

Let me get this straight...you're a History major...and you think Japan was a Democracy before WWII? Care to try again, Joey? You obviously don't know jack shit about Japan's history!

Don't let him get to you. Keep your expectations low. Every once in a while, he'll trip over them, and you'll be surprised.

I'm seldom surprised by Joey! When it comes to providing posts that border on farce...he seldom fails to deliver!

 

[JoeB131]

I actually explained that.

All of the programs that FDR did, were actually programs pioneered by Hoover. Those programs all made the recession, into a depression.

This isn't that complicated an idea. If you having someone put in place bad policies, and then you increase those bad policies... that makes you part of the problem. Not hard.

The bad policies were the ones that let the banks wildly speculate and gamble money they didn't have. We did pretty well after the Great Depression, until the Republicans gutted those policies and we got the Great Recession.

 

[JoeB131]

You think we were the only country that had slaves? Where did you go to school, Joey? Did they actually have books?

No, but we WERE the only country that murdered hundreds of thousands of people so a few rich people could keep slaves and then put up statues of them like that was something to be proud of.

Let me get this straight...you're a History major...and you think Japan was a Democracy before WWII? Care to try again, Joey? You obviously don't know jack shit about Japan's history!

Quite a lot. After the Meiji restoration, Japan had a parliament that was elected. There was in fact a period called the Taisho Democracy, where they elected prime ministers. Do try to educate yourself.

Taishō - Wikipedia

 

[Oldstyle]

You think we were the only country that had slaves? Where did you go to school, Joey? Did they actually have books?

No, but we WERE the only country that murdered hundreds of thousands of people so a few rich people could keep slaves and then put up statues of them like that was something to be proud of.

Let me get this straight...you're a History major...and you think Japan was a Democracy before WWII? Care to try again, Joey? You obviously don't know jack shit about Japan's history!

Quite a lot. After the Meiji restoration, Japan had a parliament that was elected. There was in fact a period called the Taisho Democracy, where they elected prime ministers. Do try to educate yourself.

Taishō - Wikipedia

The "Taisho Democracy" is named for the Emperor who ruled at that time you buffoon! An Emperor who was noteworthy for being a weak sickly ruler during who's time as Emperor was marked by his allowing the Diet to effectively rule for him. That in no way means that Japan was a democracy. Claiming it was simply shows how clueless you are about Japanese history!

 

[Oldstyle]

Hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting in a war amongst ourselves to end slavery! You might have heard about it? The Civil War? Duh?

 

[JoeB131]

The "Taisho Democracy" is named for the Emperor who ruled at that time you buffoon! An Emperor who was noteworthy for being a weak sickly ruler during who's time as Emperor was marked by his allowing the Diet to effectively rule for him. That in no way means that Japan was a democracy. Claiming it was simply shows how clueless you are about Japanese history!

Okay, you realize that the Taisho Emperor (AKA Yoshihito) was a figurehead. He as much ruled Japan as George V ruled England. The point was, the Diet was elected. There were party politics and Prime Ministers were selected.

Seriously, do you take special pills to be this fucking stupid?

Hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting in a war amongst ourselves to end slavery! You might have heard about it? The Civil War? Duh?

Um, repeating what I just said with indignation is not a point.

Yes, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE died in the Civil War that was ONLY fought because a few rich people wanted to keep owning slaves, and got a bunch of stupid white people to fight for them. Kind of like the modern GOP.