Debate Now If Bruce/Kaitlen Jenner is a woman, isn't Rachel Dolazel black by the same argument?

[teapartysamurai]

Those categories are social constructions, so yes she can identify as whatever she wants to.

Race is an issue because of the categories social construction puts different races in, same thing with gender and social class.

Well what the hell is a "social construction."

That's just social babble.

Was he/she born with a penis? Yes.

And don't tell me you can't change Skin color.

Michael Jackson proves that wrong.

Social construction are things society makes up and attaches meaning to such as gender roles, race or social classes, they can have different meanings depending on the society or culture you belong to. In and of itself there is no such thing naturally. So social construction serves the purpose of putting a label on things to regulate each other.

1. Social construction is how society groups people and how it privileges certain groups over others. For example, you are a woman or a man because society tells you that you are, not because you choose to be. Simple as that. Just like it tells you what race you're classified as and what social class you belong in.

Well there you are.

It's something MADE UP by a bunch of people

Social Darwinism was MADE UP by a bunch of people.

That didn't make it any more valid that this "social construct."

Race, class and gender roles are social constructions, as far as a sex you are born with that is different than a gender you identify with, these are two different things here, Gender is a socially constructed role that a society has determined a person born a certain sex has to behave like, look like or just is by default of being born a with a certain anatomy.

However, just because you are born with a biology of a vagina or penis does not automatically make you fall into those socially constructed categories of behavior or societal expectations of being a man or women.

So having a biological theory only proves that people are born genetically different, that doesn't mean that because of their genetics they are automatically pre existing as a specified mode of behavior or feel a certain way.

You can be born rich and into an affluent family, and all that does is give you an advantage but as far as your biology you are no different then someone born in the ghetto, in social construction terms you are going to have better healthcare, education and opportunities, but this is only true in a society that values a social class system.

If you were born in a society that did not measure social class that way, then there would be no advantage. All race, gender ad social class is socially constructed, meaning these are made up roles a society narrates.

To some degree I would agree. There are social and cultural expectations imposed on us all and we all grow up within those cultures and expectations that we either accept as the way things are or we rebel against them, sometimes to our own or others detriment. And sometimes we ignore the culture and mores we are expected to conform to and we become pioneers who pave the way for a better way to see or do things.

For this reason I do not personally judge Bruce Jenner--so far as I am concerned he has an unalienable right to live his life as he chooses so long as he doesn't require me or anybody else among the unwilling to participate in or contribute to that. But I won't ever consider him a natural woman and I don't think anybody should be able to demand that I do.

Ditto for those who choose to be seen as black or white or Native American or whatever. They have an unalienable right to see themselves as whatever they choose to be. But they should never have a right to demand that I accept that as natural or require that I participate in or contribute to that.

IMO, people have a right to be who or what they are or choose to be so long as they aren't requiring unwilling participation or contribution by others. And we all have a right to our own opinions of what we see as foolishness, bullsh*t, and/or immorality too.

Look, I can choose to think I'm a woman from mars.

That doesn't mean it's true.

People can delude themselves however they wish.

It's still a delusion.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well what the hell is a "social construction."

That's just social babble.

Was he/she born with a penis? Yes.

And don't tell me you can't change Skin color.

Michael Jackson proves that wrong.

Social construction are things society makes up and attaches meaning to such as gender roles, race or social classes, they can have different meanings depending on the society or culture you belong to. In and of itself there is no such thing naturally. So social construction serves the purpose of putting a label on things to regulate each other.

1. Social construction is how society groups people and how it privileges certain groups over others. For example, you are a woman or a man because society tells you that you are, not because you choose to be. Simple as that. Just like it tells you what race you're classified as and what social class you belong in.

Well there you are.

It's something MADE UP by a bunch of people

Social Darwinism was MADE UP by a bunch of people.

That didn't make it any more valid that this "social construct."

Race, class and gender roles are social constructions, as far as a sex you are born with that is different than a gender you identify with, these are two different things here, Gender is a socially constructed role that a society has determined a person born a certain sex has to behave like, look like or just is by default of being born a with a certain anatomy.

However, just because you are born with a biology of a vagina or penis does not automatically make you fall into those socially constructed categories of behavior or societal expectations of being a man or women.

So having a biological theory only proves that people are born genetically different, that doesn't mean that because of their genetics they are automatically pre existing as a specified mode of behavior or feel a certain way.

You can be born rich and into an affluent family, and all that does is give you an advantage but as far as your biology you are no different then someone born in the ghetto, in social construction terms you are going to have better healthcare, education and opportunities, but this is only true in a society that values a social class system.

If you were born in a society that did not measure social class that way, then there would be no advantage. All race, gender ad social class is socially constructed, meaning these are made up roles a society narrates.

To some degree I would agree. There are social and cultural expectations imposed on us all and we all grow up within those cultures and expectations that we either accept as the way things are or we rebel against them, sometimes to our own or others detriment. And sometimes we ignore the culture and mores we are expected to conform to and we become pioneers who pave the way for a better way to see or do things.

For this reason I do not personally judge Bruce Jenner--so far as I am concerned he has an unalienable right to live his life as he chooses so long as he doesn't require me or anybody else among the unwilling to participate in or contribute to that. But I won't ever consider him a natural woman and I don't think anybody should be able to demand that I do.

Ditto for those who choose to be seen as black or white or Native American or whatever. They have an unalienable right to see themselves as whatever they choose to be. But they should never have a right to demand that I accept that as natural or require that I participate in or contribute to that.

IMO, people have a right to be who or what they are or choose to be so long as they aren't requiring unwilling participation or contribution by others. And we all have a right to our own opinions of what we see as foolishness, bullsh*t, and/or immorality too.

Look, I can choose to think I'm a woman from mars.

That doesn't mean it's true.

People can delude themselves however they wish.

It's still a delusion.

The thing is, a free people have every right to see or choose what they will see as delusional. They just don't have a right to demand that others also see it as delusional.

And those who are deluded have every right to their delusions. They just don't have a right to demand that the rest of us contribution to or participate in them.

 

[Wake]

In essence Jenner may think himself a woman, but we're under no obligation to play to that tune. Same with Dolazel.

 

[Michelle420]

Well what the hell is a "social construction."

That's just social babble.

Was he/she born with a penis? Yes.

And don't tell me you can't change Skin color.

Michael Jackson proves that wrong.

Social construction are things society makes up and attaches meaning to such as gender roles, race or social classes, they can have different meanings depending on the society or culture you belong to. In and of itself there is no such thing naturally. So social construction serves the purpose of putting a label on things to regulate each other.

1. Social construction is how society groups people and how it privileges certain groups over others. For example, you are a woman or a man because society tells you that you are, not because you choose to be. Simple as that. Just like it tells you what race you're classified as and what social class you belong in.

Well there you are.

It's something MADE UP by a bunch of people

Social Darwinism was MADE UP by a bunch of people.

That didn't make it any more valid that this "social construct."

Race, class and gender roles are social constructions, as far as a sex you are born with that is different than a gender you identify with, these are two different things here, Gender is a socially constructed role that a society has determined a person born a certain sex has to behave like, look like or just is by default of being born a with a certain anatomy.

However, just because you are born with a biology of a vagina or penis does not automatically make you fall into those socially constructed categories of behavior or societal expectations of being a man or women.

So having a biological theory only proves that people are born genetically different, that doesn't mean that because of their genetics they are automatically pre existing as a specified mode of behavior or feel a certain way.

You can be born rich and into an affluent family, and all that does is give you an advantage but as far as your biology you are no different then someone born in the ghetto, in social construction terms you are going to have better healthcare, education and opportunities, but this is only true in a society that values a social class system.

If you were born in a society that did not measure social class that way, then there would be no advantage. All race, gender ad social class is socially constructed, meaning these are made up roles a society narrates.

To some degree I would agree. There are social and cultural expectations imposed on us all and we all grow up within those cultures and expectations that we either accept as the way things are or we rebel against them, sometimes to our own or others detriment. And sometimes we ignore the culture and mores we are expected to conform to and we become pioneers who pave the way for a better way to see or do things.

For this reason I do not personally judge Bruce Jenner--so far as I am concerned he has an unalienable right to live his life as he chooses so long as he doesn't require me or anybody else among the unwilling to participate in or contribute to that. But I won't ever consider him a natural woman and I don't think anybody should be able to demand that I do.

Ditto for those who choose to be seen as black or white or Native American or whatever. They have an unalienable right to see themselves as whatever they choose to be. But they should never have a right to demand that I accept that as natural or require that I participate in or contribute to that.

IMO, people have a right to be who or what they are or choose to be so long as they aren't requiring unwilling participation or contribution by others. And we all have a right to our own opinions of what we see as foolishness, bullsh*t, and/or immorality too.

Look, I can choose to think I'm a woman from mars.

That doesn't mean it's true.

People can delude themselves however they wish.

It's still a delusion.

But each society "defines" "outlines" "socially constructs" the narrative of what a "woman" is. So if you live in Iraq your role as a woman is defined differently then say how an american society defines a "woman"s role.

The role is given to you based on the anatomy you are born with, and whether you naturally feel like adhering to the role given a person born and defined as woman in Iraq or not doesn't matter.
Each society has already socially constructed a narrative to anyone born with a physicality that they collectively assigned to call woman and the gender role that is expected to accompany it.

Why is the role for what is defined as woman different in a\America? Because that "gender role" is defined and socially constructed differently in that society. It's just a gender role and gender roles are just that roles.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Bruce Jenner is not a woman no matter what it does to change it looks, and Rachel Dolazel will never be black.

In my personal opinion both have severe mental problem and I am a lunatic so I should know the signs when someone is a nutter like those two...

 

[Mad Scientist]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

There are men who get penile or testicular cancer or have injuries or infections that require amputation of both penis and testicles, but they are no less men. And they don't think of themselves or describe themselves as women. So Bruce Jenner's 'transformation' is of his own choice and I don't pretend to even begin to understand what would inspire somebody to do that to themselves. But it is his body and his life, and if he found a doctor with no moral problems with doing it, so be it. It does not affect me in any way. At least not yet.

And I could care less if somebody wants to pretend or believe they are black when they are not. Or white when they are not. Or Asian or Hispanic or Native American when they are not. I just don't want them to be able to demand that I agree with them. And I don't want them to be able to require me to support or pay for or participate in those choices. But then I don't think anybody should be able to require us to participate in or contribute for their benefit based on the color of the skin or what they insist their race or ethnicity is.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Social construction are things society makes up and attaches meaning to such as gender roles, race or social classes, they can have different meanings depending on the society or culture you belong to. In and of itself there is no such thing naturally. So social construction serves the purpose of putting a label on things to regulate each other.

1. Social construction is how society groups people and how it privileges certain groups over others. For example, you are a woman or a man because society tells you that you are, not because you choose to be. Simple as that. Just like it tells you what race you're classified as and what social class you belong in.

Well there you are.

It's something MADE UP by a bunch of people

Social Darwinism was MADE UP by a bunch of people.

That didn't make it any more valid that this "social construct."

Race, class and gender roles are social constructions, as far as a sex you are born with that is different than a gender you identify with, these are two different things here, Gender is a socially constructed role that a society has determined a person born a certain sex has to behave like, look like or just is by default of being born a with a certain anatomy.

However, just because you are born with a biology of a vagina or penis does not automatically make you fall into those socially constructed categories of behavior or societal expectations of being a man or women.

So having a biological theory only proves that people are born genetically different, that doesn't mean that because of their genetics they are automatically pre existing as a specified mode of behavior or feel a certain way.

You can be born rich and into an affluent family, and all that does is give you an advantage but as far as your biology you are no different then someone born in the ghetto, in social construction terms you are going to have better healthcare, education and opportunities, but this is only true in a society that values a social class system.

If you were born in a society that did not measure social class that way, then there would be no advantage. All race, gender ad social class is socially constructed, meaning these are made up roles a society narrates.

To some degree I would agree. There are social and cultural expectations imposed on us all and we all grow up within those cultures and expectations that we either accept as the way things are or we rebel against them, sometimes to our own or others detriment. And sometimes we ignore the culture and mores we are expected to conform to and we become pioneers who pave the way for a better way to see or do things.

For this reason I do not personally judge Bruce Jenner--so far as I am concerned he has an unalienable right to live his life as he chooses so long as he doesn't require me or anybody else among the unwilling to participate in or contribute to that. But I won't ever consider him a natural woman and I don't think anybody should be able to demand that I do.

Ditto for those who choose to be seen as black or white or Native American or whatever. They have an unalienable right to see themselves as whatever they choose to be. But they should never have a right to demand that I accept that as natural or require that I participate in or contribute to that.

IMO, people have a right to be who or what they are or choose to be so long as they aren't requiring unwilling participation or contribution by others. And we all have a right to our own opinions of what we see as foolishness, bullsh*t, and/or immorality too.

Look, I can choose to think I'm a woman from mars.

That doesn't mean it's true.

People can delude themselves however they wish.

It's still a delusion.

But each society "defines" "outlines" "socially constructs" the narrative of what a "woman" is. So if you live in Iraq your role as a woman is defined differently then say how an american society defines a "woman"s role.

The role is given to you based on the anatomy you are born with, and whether you naturally feel like adhering to the role given a person born and defined as woman in Iraq or not doesn't matter.
Each society has already socially constructed a narrative to anyone born with a physicality that they collectively assigned to call woman and the gender role that is expected to accompany it.

Why is the role for what is defined as woman different in a\America? Because that "gender role" is defined and socially constructed differently in that society. It's just a gender role and gender roles are just that roles.

Well that doesn't mean that society is right.

The Germans defined themselves a master race and Jews not deserving to live.

That doesn't make it right.

You are just arguing a form of "moral relativism."

 

[teapartysamurai]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

So, what if she permanently "tanned" her skin like you do a permanent tattoo?

Would that count?

 

[aris2chat]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

There are men who get penile or testicular cancer or have injuries or infections that require amputation of both penis and testicles, but they are no less men. And they don't think of themselves or describe themselves as women. So Bruce Jenner's 'transformation' is of his own choice and I don't pretend to even begin to understand what would inspire somebody to do that to themselves. But it is his body and his life, and if he found a doctor with no moral problems with doing it, so be it. It does not affect me in any way. At least not yet.

And I could care less if somebody wants to pretend or believe they are black when they are not. Or white when they are not. Or Asian or Hispanic or Native American when they are not. I just don't want them to be able to demand that I agree with them. And I don't want them to be able to require me to support or pay for or participate in those choices. But then I don't think anybody should be able to require us to participate in or contribute for their benefit based on the color of the skin or what they insist their race or ethnicity is.

Jenner never felt he belong in his skin. It has taken him this long to make the transformation to be who he was supposed to be, the person he felt he was. He might have been born with the male body but he had the brain telling him he was a woman. He tried to fight it for decades. He tried to pretend to be what the world though he should be, not what he was inside.

Penile and testicular removal effects the body in many ways, it also depends on at what age the removal takes place. The younger it happens the less male hormones the body was able to produce. An older man has already produced a lifetime of testosterone.
Animals that have their nuts removed are quite passive by comparison.

I can think of a few men that should have been neutered when they were young. It is far more complex than just x and y chromosomes.

What jenner went through is far more than just putting on a dress, changing his hair or wearing sink undies.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

There are men who get penile or testicular cancer or have injuries or infections that require amputation of both penis and testicles, but they are no less men. And they don't think of themselves or describe themselves as women. So Bruce Jenner's 'transformation' is of his own choice and I don't pretend to even begin to understand what would inspire somebody to do that to themselves. But it is his body and his life, and if he found a doctor with no moral problems with doing it, so be it. It does not affect me in any way. At least not yet.

And I could care less if somebody wants to pretend or believe they are black when they are not. Or white when they are not. Or Asian or Hispanic or Native American when they are not. I just don't want them to be able to demand that I agree with them. And I don't want them to be able to require me to support or pay for or participate in those choices. But then I don't think anybody should be able to require us to participate in or contribute for their benefit based on the color of the skin or what they insist their race or ethnicity is.

Jenner never felt he belong in his skin. It has taken him this long to make the transformation to be who he was supposed to be, the person he felt he was. He might have been born with the male body but he had the brain telling him he was a woman. He tried to fight it for decades. He tried to pretend to be what the world though he should be, not what he was inside.

Penile and testicular removal effects the body in many ways, it also depends on at what age the removal takes place. The younger it happens the less male hormones the body was able to produce. An older man has already produced a lifetime of testosterone.
Animals that have their nuts removed are quite passive by comparison.

I can think of a few men that should have been neutered when they were young. It is far more complex than just x and y chromosomes.

What jenner went through is far more than just putting on a dress, changing his hair or wearing sink undies.

None of which, however, has anything to do with my argument on this subject. I am not questioning Jenner's right to do whatever based on how he saw himself or how he felt in his skin. I don't presume to judge whatever anybody does based on how they see themselves or how he or she feels in his/her skin just so long as there is no demand on me to participate in it or contribute to it or declare that it is normal or okay or brave or necessary or however they wish to characterize it.

Everybody has an unalienable right to be who or what he or she is and live his/her life as s/he chooses so long as nobody else is required to contribute or participate in that if they choose not to do so. Nobody should have a right to demand or require anybody else to contribute or participate in their life choices, nor do they have any right to be admired or appreciated or accepted or approved in the choices they make.

 

[hoosier88]

Think about it. Liberals say Bruce Jenner is a woman because he "feels" like a woman.

By that same argument, isn't Rachel Dolazel black because she "feels" black?

Isn't this a case of liberals will embrace gender bending because it furthers their agenda, but "race" bending doesn't, so they won't embrace it.

I think it proves this isn't about either person, but how liberals want to attack traditional morality. If they can't use it to attack morality, they aren't interested.

1) No screaming racism

2) No flaming members including the op!

3) No derailing threads trying to deflect or change the subject.

4) No complaining this structured debate censors you. If you don't like the structure, start a thread like it somewhere else.

Jenner went through surgery, hormones and conciliating to become who he was supposed to be. He did not reject his parents or family. He is no longer living a lie.

Dolazel is living a lie and taking advantage of school, work and those who are people of color to advance herself. She is resenting herself as something she is not. Dolazel is even trying to say her birth parents are not really her parents to further this lie.

I see what you are saying BUT:

Jenner said he always "felt a woman" which made him a woman.

And Dolazel died her hair and tanned herself.

Doesn't that count as well?

Caitlynn Jenner has undergone serious surgery, & the actual formation of a vagina from her penis is about a year away. There is no turning back @ that point, TMK. The cases aren't comparable, Dolazel can regrow her hair & simply give the tanning booth a rest.

The levels of commitment are not in the same ballpark. Jenner has spent a lot of time, effort, money, endured surgical intervention & more to come. I think Jenner has shown enough determination to use the pronoun "her" if she wants to.

 

[aris2chat]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

There are men who get penile or testicular cancer or have injuries or infections that require amputation of both penis and testicles, but they are no less men. And they don't think of themselves or describe themselves as women. So Bruce Jenner's 'transformation' is of his own choice and I don't pretend to even begin to understand what would inspire somebody to do that to themselves. But it is his body and his life, and if he found a doctor with no moral problems with doing it, so be it. It does not affect me in any way. At least not yet.

And I could care less if somebody wants to pretend or believe they are black when they are not. Or white when they are not. Or Asian or Hispanic or Native American when they are not. I just don't want them to be able to demand that I agree with them. And I don't want them to be able to require me to support or pay for or participate in those choices. But then I don't think anybody should be able to require us to participate in or contribute for their benefit based on the color of the skin or what they insist their race or ethnicity is.

Jenner never felt he belong in his skin. It has taken him this long to make the transformation to be who he was supposed to be, the person he felt he was. He might have been born with the male body but he had the brain telling him he was a woman. He tried to fight it for decades. He tried to pretend to be what the world though he should be, not what he was inside.

Penile and testicular removal effects the body in many ways, it also depends on at what age the removal takes place. The younger it happens the less male hormones the body was able to produce. An older man has already produced a lifetime of testosterone.
Animals that have their nuts removed are quite passive by comparison.

I can think of a few men that should have been neutered when they were young. It is far more complex than just x and y chromosomes.

What jenner went through is far more than just putting on a dress, changing his hair or wearing sink undies.

None of which, however, has anything to do with my argument on this subject. I am not questioning Jenner's right to do whatever based on how he saw himself or how he felt in his skin. I don't presume to judge whatever anybody does based on how they see themselves or how he or she feels in his/her skin just so long as there is no demand on me to participate in it or contribute to it or declare that it is normal or okay or brave or necessary or however they wish to characterize it.

Everybody has an unalienable right to be who or what he or she is and live his/her life as s/he chooses so long as nobody else is required to contribute or participate in that if they choose not to do so. Nobody should have a right to demand or require anybody else to contribute or participate in their life choices, nor do they have any right to be admired or appreciated or accepted or approved in the choices they make.

Dolazi lied on applications for school and jobs. She applied for special consideration she did not deserve. She continues to lie even about her parents and how she was raised. She served on a committee she had not right to be on. She taught classes from a perspective she did not have.

This is not just a want to be but someone who lied for her own financial and social gains about what she was.

Would you accept someone who had not served in the military that put down on application that they were a officer? It is not just wrong but a crime. Dolazi was not just someone that watched a black pride parade or even marched in one, but someone that claimed to be black.

 

[Wake]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

There are men who get penile or testicular cancer or have injuries or infections that require amputation of both penis and testicles, but they are no less men. And they don't think of themselves or describe themselves as women. So Bruce Jenner's 'transformation' is of his own choice and I don't pretend to even begin to understand what would inspire somebody to do that to themselves. But it is his body and his life, and if he found a doctor with no moral problems with doing it, so be it. It does not affect me in any way. At least not yet.

And I could care less if somebody wants to pretend or believe they are black when they are not. Or white when they are not. Or Asian or Hispanic or Native American when they are not. I just don't want them to be able to demand that I agree with them. And I don't want them to be able to require me to support or pay for or participate in those choices. But then I don't think anybody should be able to require us to participate in or contribute for their benefit based on the color of the skin or what they insist their race or ethnicity is.

Jenner never felt he belong in his skin. It has taken him this long to make the transformation to be who he was supposed to be, the person he felt he was. He might have been born with the male body but he had the brain telling him he was a woman. He tried to fight it for decades. He tried to pretend to be what the world though he should be, not what he was inside.

Penile and testicular removal effects the body in many ways, it also depends on at what age the removal takes place. The younger it happens the less male hormones the body was able to produce. An older man has already produced a lifetime of testosterone.
Animals that have their nuts removed are quite passive by comparison.

I can think of a few men that should have been neutered when they were young. It is far more complex than just x and y chromosomes.

What jenner went through is far more than just putting on a dress, changing his hair or wearing sink undies.

Oh boy.

He's still in his same skin.

He still has the same chromosomes.

Shaving your adam's apple, cutting off your phallus, and making other modifcations here and there does not a real woman make.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Sure whatever you want OP

 

[Manonthestreet]

yes blackface is now acceptable.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Think about it. Liberals say Bruce Jenner is a woman because he "feels" like a woman.

By that same argument, isn't Rachel Dolazel black because she "feels" black?

Isn't this a case of liberals will embrace gender bending because it furthers their agenda, but "race" bending doesn't, so they won't embrace it.

I think it proves this isn't about either person, but how liberals want to attack traditional morality. If they can't use it to attack morality, they aren't interested.

1) No screaming racism

2) No flaming members including the op!

3) No derailing threads trying to deflect or change the subject.

4) No complaining this structured debate censors you. If you don't like the structure, start a thread like it somewhere else.

If Jenner claimed to have never had a penis, you might have a point.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Rachel Dolezal has a right to be black Rachel Dolezal has a right to be black Opinion - CNN.com

 

[Foxfyre]

Bruce clipped off his wanger to make himself a "woman". What body part did Rachel Dolazel change that made her qualify as Black?

Hairdo and Tanning don't count as that isn't permanent.

There are men who get penile or testicular cancer or have injuries or infections that require amputation of both penis and testicles, but they are no less men. And they don't think of themselves or describe themselves as women. So Bruce Jenner's 'transformation' is of his own choice and I don't pretend to even begin to understand what would inspire somebody to do that to themselves. But it is his body and his life, and if he found a doctor with no moral problems with doing it, so be it. It does not affect me in any way. At least not yet.

And I could care less if somebody wants to pretend or believe they are black when they are not. Or white when they are not. Or Asian or Hispanic or Native American when they are not. I just don't want them to be able to demand that I agree with them. And I don't want them to be able to require me to support or pay for or participate in those choices. But then I don't think anybody should be able to require us to participate in or contribute for their benefit based on the color of the skin or what they insist their race or ethnicity is.

Jenner never felt he belong in his skin. It has taken him this long to make the transformation to be who he was supposed to be, the person he felt he was. He might have been born with the male body but he had the brain telling him he was a woman. He tried to fight it for decades. He tried to pretend to be what the world though he should be, not what he was inside.

Penile and testicular removal effects the body in many ways, it also depends on at what age the removal takes place. The younger it happens the less male hormones the body was able to produce. An older man has already produced a lifetime of testosterone.
Animals that have their nuts removed are quite passive by comparison.

I can think of a few men that should have been neutered when they were young. It is far more complex than just x and y chromosomes.

What jenner went through is far more than just putting on a dress, changing his hair or wearing sink undies.

None of which, however, has anything to do with my argument on this subject. I am not questioning Jenner's right to do whatever based on how he saw himself or how he felt in his skin. I don't presume to judge whatever anybody does based on how they see themselves or how he or she feels in his/her skin just so long as there is no demand on me to participate in it or contribute to it or declare that it is normal or okay or brave or necessary or however they wish to characterize it.

Everybody has an unalienable right to be who or what he or she is and live his/her life as s/he chooses so long as nobody else is required to contribute or participate in that if they choose not to do so. Nobody should have a right to demand or require anybody else to contribute or participate in their life choices, nor do they have any right to be admired or appreciated or accepted or approved in the choices they make.

Dolazi lied on applications for school and jobs. She applied for special consideration she did not deserve. She continues to lie even about her parents and how she was raised. She served on a committee she had not right to be on. She taught classes from a perspective she did not have.

This is not just a want to be but someone who lied for her own financial and social gains about what she was.

Would you accept someone who had not served in the military that put down on application that they were a officer? It is not just wrong but a crime. Dolazi was not just someone that watched a black pride parade or even marched in one, but someone that claimed to be black.

I'm not disagreeing with that. That is committing fraud at the expense of others and that should not be acceptable or commendable regardless of who or what somebody is. Remember, I said people should be able to do or define themselves as they choose - SO LONG AS - they do not require me to participate in that or contribute to it.

 

[aris2chat]

Think about it. Liberals say Bruce Jenner is a woman because he "feels" like a woman.

By that same argument, isn't Rachel Dolazel black because she "feels" black?

Isn't this a case of liberals will embrace gender bending because it furthers their agenda, but "race" bending doesn't, so they won't embrace it.

I think it proves this isn't about either person, but how liberals want to attack traditional morality. If they can't use it to attack morality, they aren't interested.

1) No screaming racism

2) No flaming members including the op!

3) No derailing threads trying to deflect or change the subject.

4) No complaining this structured debate censors you. If you don't like the structure, start a thread like it somewhere else.

If Jenner claimed to have never had a penis, you might have a point.

If he had been born with both sets of organs, is it for you to choose, or for the person to know inside what they should be?

What if his parents had chosen which sex he should be but when he grew up he did not feel it was the right one?