If it is your body & your choice why the he'll do I have to pay for the next 18 years?

[martybegan]

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

You keep saying that- but what we keep saying is that both men and women are equally responsible.

When having sex- both are equally responsible deciding whether to have sex and whether to use protection- both are equally responsible for the consequences of those decisions(pregnancy/std's)
After having sex- both are responsible for their own bodies- uniquely only the woman can get pregnant- so we either allow a woman to control her body- or we do not allow it. She is responsible for whatever decisions she makes with her body though.
After a baby is born- both are responsible for the baby.

Exactly. What Marty and others are arguing for is unequal responsibility. Where a woman is responsible for every child she bears. But a man is never responsible for any child he fathers.

Or, even more laughably....that a man has control over his own body AND that of a woman. While a woman has no control over a man's body, nor her own.

Neither of these situations is 'equal'. Both are comically unequal. The former proposal overwhelmilngly encouraging abortion by dramatically reducing the resources available for raising a child. The latter making women into mere meat puppets controlled by men. Where a man has complete control over the reproduction of any woman he impregnates. While a woman lacks the ability to control even her own body.

Um, no. There's a reason that every single state, without exception, has rejected this nonsense proposal: its a stupid idea. So stupid that its idiocy transcends politics. With those on the right and the left both recognizing how awful it is. And every state legislature, democrat or republican, rejecting it.

The woman has control. In my view the man has to make it clear, prior to the legal end of the time window for an arbitrary abortion if he intends to support the child or not. If not, this gives time for the woman to make a CHOICE, support the kid herself or have an abortion.

Currently women have total sexual reproductive freedom (pre-third trimester) and men do not. I thought equality was the goal here? If it isn't, then all the nasty stuff said about feminism being about superior rights over equal rights becomes far more significant.

No. You accepted responsibility the moment you chose to have sex.

And a woman has a legal "out" of that responsibility. Why besides the fact they are men, are men denied a similar legal "out"?

 

[Syriusly]

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

You keep saying that- but what we keep saying is that both men and women are equally responsible.

When having sex- both are equally responsible deciding whether to have sex and whether to use protection- both are equally responsible for the consequences of those decisions(pregnancy/std's)
After having sex- both are responsible for their own bodies- uniquely only the woman can get pregnant- so we either allow a woman to control her body- or we do not allow it. She is responsible for whatever decisions she makes with her body though.
After a baby is born- both are responsible for the baby.

Exactly. What Marty and others are arguing for is unequal responsibility. Where a woman is responsible for every child she bears. But a man is never responsible for any child he fathers.

Or, even more laughably....that a man has control over his own body AND that of a woman. While a woman has no control over a man's body, nor her own.

Neither of these situations is 'equal'. Both are comically unequal. The former proposal overwhelmilngly encouraging abortion by dramatically reducing the resources available for raising a child. The latter making women into mere meat puppets controlled by men. Where a man has complete control over the reproduction of any woman he impregnates. While a woman lacks the ability to control even her own body.

Um, no. There's a reason that every single state, without exception, has rejected this nonsense proposal: its a stupid idea. So stupid that its idiocy transcends politics. With those on the right and the left both recognizing how awful it is. And every state legislature, democrat or republican, rejecting it.

The woman has control. In my view the man has to make it clear, prior to the legal end of the time window for an arbitrary abortion if he intends to support the child or not. If not, this gives time for the woman to make a CHOICE, support the kid herself or have an abortion.

Currently women have total sexual reproductive freedom (pre-third trimester) and men do not. I thought equality was the goal here? If it isn't, then all the nasty stuff said about feminism being about superior rights over equal rights becomes far more significant.

No. You accepted responsibility the moment you chose to have sex.

And a woman has a legal "out" of that responsibility. Why besides the fact they are men, are men denied a similar legal "out"?

As soon as men get pregnant, they will have the exact same option.

 

[Syriusly]

HOW are the men being held MORE responsible when the woman has chosen to NOT ABORT and carry this accidental child and raise this child of theirs.....?????

That makes NO SENSE to me Marty, just none....

Are you seriously trying to punish the woman who chooses to own up, just because of the women who chose not to? And those women who chose to abort and give up their responsibility, they relieved the man of HIS RESPONSIBILITY in this mess as well.

You need to rethink your position. Those women willing to own up and give out/give up the next 20 years or longer of their life for their and the father's child, should NOT be punished for owning up. And that's what you are TRYING TO DO.

It may not make sense to you, but giving one party a choice, and the other party none, and then holding the other party responsible regardless of their choice simply isn't fair.

Both parties have a choice on the use of their own body. If a man wants to be the one deciding if he's going to use his body to bring a fetus to term then he should get pregnant.

Worse, your very premise of financial responsibility is nonsense. You say its 'choice'. You're wrong. The premise of financial responsibility is the child. If the child exists, the responsibility exist. It doesn't matter if a man wants the child. Or doesn't want the child. Or agrees with the mother. Or disagrees. None of that is the basis of his responsibility.

The child's existence is. And he's responsible for any child of his that's born. Whether or not he wanted it to be born.

But only one side has the ability to say "I don't want this child." In an equal world, both sides would have, and should have the right.

If and when a man's body gets pregnant- then the man can decide whether or not to continue the pregnancy or terminate it.

But once a baby is born- both the mother and father are equally responsible.

Again you bring biology into it, when in a gender neutral society, gender cannot be an issue. Again, only the mother gets a real choice, and only because of her gender. Again, its discrimination, and you can't get it through your head.

From a legal standpoint, if you remove gender from the equation, why should the male have any less rights than the female? And I get the point that the man cannot force the woman to carry. Why should the man be forced to pay if he doesn't want the kid, tells her so before the end period for an abortion to be legally done, and thus gives her the option to keep the child OF HER OWN FREE WILL or abort it if she doesn't want to keep it on her own?

A gender neutral society is not a biologically blind society.

Last time I respond to you in this thread- clearly you just are not willing to accept that both the woman and the men have responsibility and control for their own actions and bodies, and if a child is born- both are equally legally responsible for the resulting child.

Any man not willing to accept that reality, can avoid having sex with women and he will never have the issue.

 

[martybegan]

You keep saying that- but what we keep saying is that both men and women are equally responsible.

When having sex- both are equally responsible deciding whether to have sex and whether to use protection- both are equally responsible for the consequences of those decisions(pregnancy/std's)
After having sex- both are responsible for their own bodies- uniquely only the woman can get pregnant- so we either allow a woman to control her body- or we do not allow it. She is responsible for whatever decisions she makes with her body though.
After a baby is born- both are responsible for the baby.

Exactly. What Marty and others are arguing for is unequal responsibility. Where a woman is responsible for every child she bears. But a man is never responsible for any child he fathers.

Or, even more laughably....that a man has control over his own body AND that of a woman. While a woman has no control over a man's body, nor her own.

Neither of these situations is 'equal'. Both are comically unequal. The former proposal overwhelmilngly encouraging abortion by dramatically reducing the resources available for raising a child. The latter making women into mere meat puppets controlled by men. Where a man has complete control over the reproduction of any woman he impregnates. While a woman lacks the ability to control even her own body.

Um, no. There's a reason that every single state, without exception, has rejected this nonsense proposal: its a stupid idea. So stupid that its idiocy transcends politics. With those on the right and the left both recognizing how awful it is. And every state legislature, democrat or republican, rejecting it.

The woman has control. In my view the man has to make it clear, prior to the legal end of the time window for an arbitrary abortion if he intends to support the child or not. If not, this gives time for the woman to make a CHOICE, support the kid herself or have an abortion.

Currently women have total sexual reproductive freedom (pre-third trimester) and men do not. I thought equality was the goal here? If it isn't, then all the nasty stuff said about feminism being about superior rights over equal rights becomes far more significant.

No. You accepted responsibility the moment you chose to have sex.

And a woman has a legal "out" of that responsibility. Why besides the fact they are men, are men denied a similar legal "out"?

As soon as men get pregnant, they will have the exact same option.

That is immaterial to the discussion. At worst you could demand the man pay for 1/2 of the abortion if he decides he doesn't want the kid.

 

[martybegan]

It may not make sense to you, but giving one party a choice, and the other party none, and then holding the other party responsible regardless of their choice simply isn't fair.

Both parties have a choice on the use of their own body. If a man wants to be the one deciding if he's going to use his body to bring a fetus to term then he should get pregnant.

Worse, your very premise of financial responsibility is nonsense. You say its 'choice'. You're wrong. The premise of financial responsibility is the child. If the child exists, the responsibility exist. It doesn't matter if a man wants the child. Or doesn't want the child. Or agrees with the mother. Or disagrees. None of that is the basis of his responsibility.

The child's existence is. And he's responsible for any child of his that's born. Whether or not he wanted it to be born.

But only one side has the ability to say "I don't want this child." In an equal world, both sides would have, and should have the right.

If and when a man's body gets pregnant- then the man can decide whether or not to continue the pregnancy or terminate it.

But once a baby is born- both the mother and father are equally responsible.

Again you bring biology into it, when in a gender neutral society, gender cannot be an issue. Again, only the mother gets a real choice, and only because of her gender. Again, its discrimination, and you can't get it through your head.

From a legal standpoint, if you remove gender from the equation, why should the male have any less rights than the female? And I get the point that the man cannot force the woman to carry. Why should the man be forced to pay if he doesn't want the kid, tells her so before the end period for an abortion to be legally done, and thus gives her the option to keep the child OF HER OWN FREE WILL or abort it if she doesn't want to keep it on her own?

A gender neutral society is not a biologically blind society.

Last time I respond to you in this thread- clearly you just are not willing to accept that both the woman and the men have responsibility and control for their own actions and bodies, and if a child is born- both are equally legally responsible for the resulting child.

Any man not willing to accept that reality, can avoid having sex with women and he will never have the issue.

Or a woman who doesn't want to deal with the issue can stop having sex as well, same as a man. Instead she has to rely on the force of the State to support a kid she couldn't afford in the first place. But again, she has an "out." if she comes to this conclusion prior to the 3rd trimester. Why shouldn't men have the same "out" if our goal is a fair society?

 

[koshergrl]

No. I don't. No one has the right to the use of the body of another without their consent, no matter what the need. If anyone does, then everyone does.

Horseshit. Infants aren't *squatters* or parasites. They are human beings created at least in part by the one that carries them. Once they're created, the manner of their creation doesn't matter, it's our responsibility to protect them. Get over it, death cultist.

Not up to you. Its up to the woman involved and no one else. If you don't like it, then don't have an abortion. But you have no more right to determine how a woman's body is to be used than I have over how your body is to be used.

Then a woman should have no right to force a man to pay for a kid she want's to keep, and he doesn't. With great power comes great responsibility.

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

 

[Moonglow]

Horseshit. Infants aren't *squatters* or parasites. They are human beings created at least in part by the one that carries them. Once they're created, the manner of their creation doesn't matter, it's our responsibility to protect them. Get over it, death cultist.

Not up to you. Its up to the woman involved and no one else. If you don't like it, then don't have an abortion. But you have no more right to determine how a woman's body is to be used than I have over how your body is to be used.

Then a woman should have no right to force a man to pay for a kid she want's to keep, and he doesn't. With great power comes great responsibility.

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

Where does this happen?? Where you went to school, cause it was tough when I was in, a sever lack of ho's...

 

[bodecea]

Horseshit. Infants aren't *squatters* or parasites. They are human beings created at least in part by the one that carries them. Once they're created, the manner of their creation doesn't matter, it's our responsibility to protect them. Get over it, death cultist.

Not up to you. Its up to the woman involved and no one else. If you don't like it, then don't have an abortion. But you have no more right to determine how a woman's body is to be used than I have over how your body is to be used.

Then a woman should have no right to force a man to pay for a kid she want's to keep, and he doesn't. With great power comes great responsibility.

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

I got the sarcasm....but some here may have not.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Why the he will?

I disagree. Man up and pay support and raise your kids, deadbeat daddies of America.

Auto correct

Anyhow this has nothing to do with deadbeat dads. This is about fairplay between men & women.

If a woman can kill the child the man should have the option to walk away as well.

Men have no say in the abortion issue. But we should. Without our 'contribution' there'd be no abortion issue.

Women have a say in military matter though they're not subject to drafts or (currently) fighting alongside men on the front lines.) If that's ok, then so to should men having some legal standing in a woman's decision to abort a man AND woman's baby.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Horseshit. Infants aren't *squatters* or parasites. They are human beings created at least in part by the one that carries them. Once they're created, the manner of their creation doesn't matter, it's our responsibility to protect them. Get over it, death cultist.

Not up to you. Its up to the woman involved and no one else. If you don't like it, then don't have an abortion. But you have no more right to determine how a woman's body is to be used than I have over how your body is to be used.

Then a woman should have no right to force a man to pay for a kid she want's to keep, and he doesn't. With great power comes great responsibility.

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

 

[koshergrl]

Not up to you. Its up to the woman involved and no one else. If you don't like it, then don't have an abortion. But you have no more right to determine how a woman's body is to be used than I have over how your body is to be used.

Then a woman should have no right to force a man to pay for a kid she want's to keep, and he doesn't. With great power comes great responsibility.

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

No, it's what the public schools teach our children. And I believe you're mentally ill, so I believe I'm going to put you on ignore. You don't make sense, and you're hysterical.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Then a woman should have no right to force a man to pay for a kid she want's to keep, and he doesn't. With great power comes great responsibility.

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

No, it's what the public schools teach our children. And I believe you're mentally ill, so I believe I'm going to put you on ignore. You don't make sense, and you're hysterical.

Of course you think I'm ill....anyone not stupid like you will always seem off to you.

Oh and public schools do not teach that to girls. Just more proof of your ignorance

 

[koshergrl]

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

No, it's what the public schools teach our children. And I believe you're mentally ill, so I believe I'm going to put you on ignore. You don't make sense, and you're hysterical.

Of course you think I'm ill....anyone not stupid like you will always seem off to you.

Oh and public schools do not teach that to girls. Just more proof of your ignorance

No, I really do think you're mentally ill. You don't track correctly and your reasoning conflicts with itself. I recommend you seek help. Goodbye, psycho.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Compromise solution to giving men any equal say in a woman getting an abortion (anything less than equal is meaningless) would be a 'partner notification.' Not granting permission, but at least proving the man knows a baby exists and his female-partner is choosing to abort it.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

No, it's what the public schools teach our children. And I believe you're mentally ill, so I believe I'm going to put you on ignore. You don't make sense, and you're hysterical.

Of course you think I'm ill....anyone not stupid like you will always seem off to you.

Oh and public schools do not teach that to girls. Just more proof of your ignorance

No, I really do think you're mentally ill. You don't track correctly and your reasoning conflicts with itself. I recommend you seek help. Goodbye, psycho.

So when confronted you run away.

Fucking coward. You go ahead and put me on ignore. Since you can't refute my point it is the only option you have.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

No, it's what the public schools teach our children. And I believe you're mentally ill, so I believe I'm going to put you on ignore. You don't make sense, and you're hysterical.

Of course you think I'm ill....anyone not stupid like you will always seem off to you.

Oh and public schools do not teach that to girls. Just more proof of your ignorance

No, I really do think you're mentally ill. You don't track correctly and your reasoning conflicts with itself. I recommend you seek help. Goodbye, psycho.

Put me on ignore. You still look foolish to everyone even if you can't see my posts.

You made the ridiculous claims about what schools teach girls. The claim was completely asinine. The schools do a lot wrong but teaching our girls to be whores is not one of those things.
If I had to guess I'd say you spread your legs early in life, regret it and need someone to blame but your mirror must be broke....

Amirite

 

[PratchettFan]

Nope. And if you don't think that is fair, then talk to the person who came up with the division of labor on making babies. You don't want the responsibility, then get snipped or keep it in your pants. But don't pretend that how babies are born is an equal thing between men and women. It isn't and the women don't get to make you carry it half way because it's not fair. The man gets no say, and that's just too bad.

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

Indeed she can. But if she doesn't and he doesn't, then they are both equally responsible. But they do not equally carry the kid. If there is an abortion, they don't equally have the procedure. If there is a problem with the pregnancy, they don't equally undergo treatment. They are not equally at risk. So to make it equal, she gets to make the decisions about the pregnancy. After that, they are equally responsible. If the man doesn't like that arrangement, it is his responsibility to keep it in his pants. Once he pulls it out, he signs on for the whole ride whether he thinks it fair or not.

You are confusing legality and biology. Again, you are placing an undue burden on one gender of the other.

A question, if an ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) ever gets passed, and removes gender from the law, how do you give women these additional rights over men?

And if you want that to be the case, Men have to get some legal benefit as an equalizer, or you are basically admitting legally women are inferior and require additional protections.

No. The same legal burden is on both of them. You just don't think it's fair you don't get an equal say in the biological part of the equation, even though you accept no responsibility in it. She takes all the risks, but you think you should be able to make the decisions. The only thing I am admitting is the woman's body belongs to her and you get no say. Whether you think that is fair is of no consequence.

But only one has the legal ability to remove their responsibility. What I am saying is both should have an EQUAL decision. If a woman wants responsibility for her body, she can have it, but she should also accept the total responsibility of the decision to keep a baby if the male does not want it. The final decision would always be hers.

You want to deny men the same choice just because they are men. That you don't get the sad irony of this is your own problem.

That would not be EQUAL. That would be incredibly UNEQUAL. If a pregnancy goes bad the worst that can happen to the woman is she is dead. The worst that can happen to a man is he collects the insurance money and moves on with his life. Physical damage to the woman from giving birth is normal. Physical damage to the man just doesn't happen. You are ignoring the fact that the man has no skin in the game at all when it comes to the pregnancy, and simply focusing on money. Your position is that because that part doesn't impact you, then it doesn't count. You are wrong. It is all that does count. You don't take the risk so you don't get a say. If you don't think that is fair, I'm told homosexuality is a choice.

 

[PratchettFan]

HOW are the men being held MORE responsible when the woman has chosen to NOT ABORT and carry this accidental child and raise this child of theirs.....?????

That makes NO SENSE to me Marty, just none....

Are you seriously trying to punish the woman who chooses to own up, just because of the women who chose not to? And those women who chose to abort and give up their responsibility, they relieved the man of HIS RESPONSIBILITY in this mess as well.

You need to rethink your position. Those women willing to own up and give out/give up the next 20 years or longer of their life for their and the father's child, should NOT be punished for owning up. And that's what you are TRYING TO DO.

It may not make sense to you, but giving one party a choice, and the other party none, and then holding the other party responsible regardless of their choice simply isn't fair.

Both parties have a choice on the use of their own body. If a man wants to be the one deciding if he's going to use his body to bring a fetus to term then he should get pregnant.

Worse, your very premise of financial responsibility is nonsense. You say its 'choice'. You're wrong. The premise of financial responsibility is the child. If the child exists, the responsibility exist. It doesn't matter if a man wants the child. Or doesn't want the child. Or agrees with the mother. Or disagrees. None of that is the basis of his responsibility.

The child's existence is. And he's responsible for any child of his that's born. Whether or not he wanted it to be born.

But only one side has the ability to say "I don't want this child." In an equal world, both sides would have, and should have the right.

If and when a man's body gets pregnant- then the man can decide whether or not to continue the pregnancy or terminate it.

But once a baby is born- both the mother and father are equally responsible.

Again you bring biology into it, when in a gender neutral society, gender cannot be an issue. Again, only the mother gets a real choice, and only because of her gender. Again, its discrimination, and you can't get it through your head.

From a legal standpoint, if you remove gender from the equation, why should the male have any less rights than the female? And I get the point that the man cannot force the woman to carry. Why should the man be forced to pay if he doesn't want the kid, tells her so before the end period for an abortion to be legally done, and thus gives her the option to keep the child OF HER OWN FREE WILL or abort it if she doesn't want to keep it on her own?

This is not gender neutral and it can't be gender neutral. Who carries the baby is not determined by a coin toss.

 

[Ravi]

Exactly. Women, like blacks, are considered a disposable, stupid, and criminal underclass who aren't capable of making decisions on their own...and who shouldn't be expected (or allowed) to. It's why we train women from birth via our public schools that it's their job to have sex upon a whim with whomever asks it, and get an abortion to relieve that person of any responsibility if they get knocked up.

That's what you were taught growing up? No wonder you're so fucked in the head. I raised 2 girls and taught them the exact opposite.

I also don't know a single person who thinks women are stupid or disposable.

It sounds to me like you have serious mental issues along with super low self esteem and that is what you're projecting on everyone else.

Seek help

No, it's what the public schools teach our children. And I believe you're mentally ill, so I believe I'm going to put you on ignore. You don't make sense, and you're hysterical.

Of course you think I'm ill....anyone not stupid like you will always seem off to you.

Oh and public schools do not teach that to girls. Just more proof of your ignorance

No, I really do think you're mentally ill. You don't track correctly and your reasoning conflicts with itself. I recommend you seek help. Goodbye, psycho.

Put me on ignore. You still look foolish to everyone even if you can't see my posts.

You made the ridiculous claims about what schools teach girls. The claim was completely asinine. The schools do a lot wrong but teaching our girls to be whores is not one of those things.
If I had to guess I'd say you spread your legs early in life, regret it and need someone to blame but your mirror must be broke....

Amirite

She is speaking from experience. She used to be a teacher and that is exactly what she taught her female students.

 

[PratchettFan]

Or the woman can simply keep her legs crossed. Problem solved. For some reason you think women are somehow unable to control their sexuality, but men somehow can.

You keep saying that- but what we keep saying is that both men and women are equally responsible.

When having sex- both are equally responsible deciding whether to have sex and whether to use protection- both are equally responsible for the consequences of those decisions(pregnancy/std's)
After having sex- both are responsible for their own bodies- uniquely only the woman can get pregnant- so we either allow a woman to control her body- or we do not allow it. She is responsible for whatever decisions she makes with her body though.
After a baby is born- both are responsible for the baby.

Exactly. What Marty and others are arguing for is unequal responsibility. Where a woman is responsible for every child she bears. But a man is never responsible for any child he fathers.

Or, even more laughably....that a man has control over his own body AND that of a woman. While a woman has no control over a man's body, nor her own.

Neither of these situations is 'equal'. Both are comically unequal. The former proposal overwhelmilngly encouraging abortion by dramatically reducing the resources available for raising a child. The latter making women into mere meat puppets controlled by men. Where a man has complete control over the reproduction of any woman he impregnates. While a woman lacks the ability to control even her own body.

Um, no. There's a reason that every single state, without exception, has rejected this nonsense proposal: its a stupid idea. So stupid that its idiocy transcends politics. With those on the right and the left both recognizing how awful it is. And every state legislature, democrat or republican, rejecting it.

The woman has control. In my view the man has to make it clear, prior to the legal end of the time window for an arbitrary abortion if he intends to support the child or not. If not, this gives time for the woman to make a CHOICE, support the kid herself or have an abortion.

Currently women have total sexual reproductive freedom (pre-third trimester) and men do not. I thought equality was the goal here? If it isn't, then all the nasty stuff said about feminism being about superior rights over equal rights becomes far more significant.

No. You accepted responsibility the moment you chose to have sex.

And a woman has a legal "out" of that responsibility. Why besides the fact they are men, are men denied a similar legal "out"?

Because men don't get pregnant and therefore can't have an abortion.