If Ted Cruz Was Born in Canada, He Cannot Be President: PERIOD

[Toddsterpatriot]

No he isnt. The constitution gives congress the power to decide citizenship.

And where did I ever say otherwise? The question isn't if Cruz is a citizen. He clearly is. The question is if citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute is 'natural born citizenship'?

You following Gomer?

Apparently you dont. The law says he is a citizen. Period. End of discussion

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Strawman. No one has claimed he isn't a citizen. We're discussing if he's a naturally born citizen. For the third time....this is what we're discussing:

Is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

Which you have yet to address. Feel free to join us if you ever muster up the courage to do so.

You agree that Ted Cruz is a United States citizen, correct?

Absolutely. No one I've seen has said otherwise. If you believe I have, quote me.

There are only two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil. Citizenship by blood is granted through statute and not embodied in the constitution.

So the question is....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

By the standards of originalism (which Cruz uses), probably not. As originalism (also known as 'jurisprudence by original intent) the constitution and its terms are gleaned by understanding what the founders understood them to mean when they ratified it. And citizenship by blood was not embodied in the constitution. But came after.

If you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution then laws that came after can be used instead of the original intent of the founders.

By Cruz's own standards...he's probably not eligible.

See how easy that was?

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil.

When did the Constitution mention soil?

 

[jillian]

After thoroughly debating it they determined he was indeed eligible. Just as Cruz is today.

Seems the left can't defend the their candidates so they must try and destroy the opposition.

I'm in the middle. Cruz has a Canadian birth certificate. The Constitution is clear. He can't be president.

That is not in the constitution.

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what is in the constitution is that he has to be a "natural born citizen". we don't know what the court will say that is.

 

[jillian]

And where did I ever say otherwise? The question isn't if Cruz is a citizen. He clearly is. The question is if citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute is 'natural born citizenship'?

You following Gomer?

Apparently you dont. The law says he is a citizen. Period. End of discussion

Sent from my SM-G386T1 using Tapatalk

Strawman. No one has claimed he isn't a citizen. We're discussing if he's a naturally born citizen. For the third time....this is what we're discussing:

Is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

Which you have yet to address. Feel free to join us if you ever muster up the courage to do so.

You agree that Ted Cruz is a United States citizen, correct?

Absolutely. No one I've seen has said otherwise. If you believe I have, quote me.

There are only two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil. Citizenship by blood is granted through statute and not embodied in the constitution.

So the question is....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

By the standards of originalism (which Cruz uses), probably not. As originalism (also known as 'jurisprudence by original intent) the constitution and its terms are gleaned by understanding what the founders understood them to mean when they ratified it. And citizenship by blood was not embodied in the constitution. But came after.

If you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution then laws that came after can be used instead of the original intent of the founders.

By Cruz's own standards...he's probably not eligible.

See how easy that was?

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil.

When did the Constitution mention soil?

the 14th amendment.

 

[dannyboys]

So all you LIB fuck-wits. Every woman who is a US citizen who has a baby anywhere other than in the US means the baby is not a US citizen????????????????????? Ya fucking right!
Dear GOD you're a bunch ignoramuses!

 

[jillian]

The GOP vetted Cruz with a fine toothed comb trying to find anything to disqualify him from running for President. They couldn't find anything AND the WANTED TO!
Go climb on another fucking dead horse asshole!
Still wearing your 'Hands Up Don't Shoot' T- shirt in public? Thought not. Fucking stupid Bonobo loser!

Cruz announced his own candidacy. The GOP didn't do it for him. They may vet their nominee. But not every stooge that wants to be president.

If the GOP vetted *every* of the legion of candidates for the GOP nomination, they could do little else.

Fucking stupid bullshit!! ANY GOP candidate that is remotely considered to be a 'player' AKA top twenty is meticulously vetted. Take that to the bank asshole!
The GOP has HUNDREDS of lawyers working for free in the GOP trenches whose job it is to dig up ANYTHING a top twenty possibility has fucked up in their lives.
What are you? Like fucking twelve? You seem to have the intellectual smarts as one. The GOP quietly goes to these fuck-ups and tells them to fucking GET LOST!!!!!

THINK MAN!!!!!!!!!!
I bet you are real smart checkers player. Some of us here play chess. Fucking learn the game before coming back to make a fool of yourself!

are you so dense that you don't understand that the supreme court will define "natural born citizen"....and not you....and not the congress?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Apparently you dont. The law says he is a citizen. Period. End of discussion

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Strawman. No one has claimed he isn't a citizen. We're discussing if he's a naturally born citizen. For the third time....this is what we're discussing:

Is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

Which you have yet to address. Feel free to join us if you ever muster up the courage to do so.

You agree that Ted Cruz is a United States citizen, correct?

Absolutely. No one I've seen has said otherwise. If you believe I have, quote me.

There are only two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil. Citizenship by blood is granted through statute and not embodied in the constitution.

So the question is....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

By the standards of originalism (which Cruz uses), probably not. As originalism (also known as 'jurisprudence by original intent) the constitution and its terms are gleaned by understanding what the founders understood them to mean when they ratified it. And citizenship by blood was not embodied in the constitution. But came after.

If you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution then laws that came after can be used instead of the original intent of the founders.

By Cruz's own standards...he's probably not eligible.

See how easy that was?

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil.

When did the Constitution mention soil?

the 14th amendment.

So from an originalism standpoint, it's not there.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You agree that Ted Cruz is a United States citizen, correct?

Absolutely. No one I've seen has said otherwise. If you believe I have, quote me.

There are only two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil. Citizenship by blood is granted through statute and not embodied in the constitution.

So the question is....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

By the standards of originalism (which Cruz uses), probably not. As originalism (also known as 'jurisprudence by original intent) the constitution and its terms are gleaned by understanding what the founders understood them to mean when they ratified it. And citizenship by blood was not embodied in the constitution. But came after.

If you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution then laws that came after can be used instead of the original intent of the founders.

By Cruz's own standards...he's probably not eligible.

See how easy that was?

Forget for a second that I taught American Government to high school students and know the Constitution like the back of my hand. Tell me where it says anything of the sort!

Laughing...I'll definitely try and forget your half assed attempt at an Appeal to Authority fallacy.

You just keep repeating this as though it were true. It is not!

Then refute my argument. I'm not citing me. I'm citing the Supreme Court, James Madison, and the US State Department. First, the Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark discussing the meaning of 'natural born' in the US Constitution:

The fundamental principle of the common law with regard to English nationality was birth within the allegiance, also called "ligealty," "obedience," "faith," or "power" of the King. The principle embraced all persons born within the King's allegiance and subject to his protection. Such allegiance and protection were mutual -- as expressed in the maxim protectio trahit subjectionem, et subjectio protectionem -- and were not restricted to natural-born subjects and naturalized subjects, or to those who had taken an oath of allegiance, but were predicable of aliens in amity so long as they were within the kingdom. Children, born in England, of such aliens were therefore natural-born subjects.

United States v. Wong Kim Ark

Which indicates that per English Common Law place of birth defines natural born status. And demonstrates the intregal link between allegiance and natural born status.

Next is James Madison, 'Father of the Constitution' who elegantly described the maxims of allegience following PLACE of birth in the United States.

It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.

Article 1, Section 2, Clause 2: James Madison, House of Representatives

And finally the State Department, demonstrating that birth by blood is not embodied in the Constitution. But instead is granted by statute only.

Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline) - a concept of Roman or civil law under which a person’s citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called “citizenship by descent” or “derivative citizenship”, is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution, but such citizenship is granted through statute. As U.S. laws have changed, the requirements for conferring and retaining derivative citizenship have also changed.'

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf

And your reply is 'uh-uh'. I can see why you used to be an American government teacher.

None of those you quoted are in the Constitution.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the Constitution doesn't define natural born citizenship. Which you'd know if you'd read it. With the Supreme Court recognizing these terms must be gleaned from English Common Law:

The Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words, either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except insofar as this is done by the affirmative declaration that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States." In this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution.

United States v. Wong Kim Ark

To which you again reply 'uh-uh'. Yeah, I'm gonna go with the Supreme Court on how to glean the meaning of terms the constitution uses but doesn't define. Not you.

As would any rational person.

So, shall we try again for possible penetration of an apparently thick skull.

What is the applicable part of the Constitution of the United States that states Ted Cruz is not eligible to be President of the United States?

If we're using the originalist intepretation of the constitution, it would be the natural born citizen requirement. Which would be Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 5.

And since the constitution doesn't define the term 'natural born' (as has been explained to you slowly and repeatedly), we have to go elsewhere to find out the meaning.

To which your reply is still 'uh-uh'.

So, you admit making it up completely and that you have no constitutional reference as to why he is not eligible.?

You have read an seen (presumably) the US law that states Cruz was a citizen at birth. That is the applicable document to reference. Ignoring it just shows your inability to process information logically.

My point has been made over and over again by other posters and myself.

Revel in your ignorance if you wish.

I will waste no more time on fools such as you.

 

[jillian]

Strawman. No one has claimed he isn't a citizen. We're discussing if he's a naturally born citizen. For the third time....this is what we're discussing:

Is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

Which you have yet to address. Feel free to join us if you ever muster up the courage to do so.

You agree that Ted Cruz is a United States citizen, correct?

Absolutely. No one I've seen has said otherwise. If you believe I have, quote me.

There are only two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil. Citizenship by blood is granted through statute and not embodied in the constitution.

So the question is....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

By the standards of originalism (which Cruz uses), probably not. As originalism (also known as 'jurisprudence by original intent) the constitution and its terms are gleaned by understanding what the founders understood them to mean when they ratified it. And citizenship by blood was not embodied in the constitution. But came after.

If you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution then laws that came after can be used instead of the original intent of the founders.

By Cruz's own standards...he's probably not eligible.

See how easy that was?

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil.

When did the Constitution mention soil?

the 14th amendment.

So from an originalism standpoint, it's not there.

1. no one who went to law school before scalia polluted the bench ever heard the word "originalist".
2. amendments have the same force and effect as every other part of the constitution.
3. so what are you talking about?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

[Q
What is the applicable part of the Constitution of the United States that states Ted Cruz is not eligible to be President of the United States?

Why do you think Skylar is claiming that the Constitution says that?

He claims only birthright of the soil is contained therein and I want to prove he is full of

No he doesn't.

He has clearly stated otherwise by pointing out the analysis of Wong Kim Ark.

Really- do not get the issue Skylar is raising?

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible.

Then you need remedial reading also.

 

[Syriusly]

So all you LIB fuck-wits. Every woman who is a US citizen who has a baby anywhere other than in the US means the baby is not a US citizen????????????????????? Ya fucking right!
Dear GOD you're a bunch ignoramuses!

Another foul mouthed faux- Conservative foaming at the mouth.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You agree that Ted Cruz is a United States citizen, correct?

Absolutely. No one I've seen has said otherwise. If you believe I have, quote me.

There are only two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil. Citizenship by blood is granted through statute and not embodied in the constitution.

So the question is....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'?

By the standards of originalism (which Cruz uses), probably not. As originalism (also known as 'jurisprudence by original intent) the constitution and its terms are gleaned by understanding what the founders understood them to mean when they ratified it. And citizenship by blood was not embodied in the constitution. But came after.

If you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution then laws that came after can be used instead of the original intent of the founders.

By Cruz's own standards...he's probably not eligible.

See how easy that was?

Under our current law, absolutely. But citizenship embodied by the constitution? There's only citizenship by soil.

When did the Constitution mention soil?

the 14th amendment.

So from an originalism standpoint, it's not there.

1. no one who went to law school before scalia polluted the bench ever heard the word "originalist".
2. amendments have the same force and effect as every other part of the constitution.
3. so what are you talking about?

My question was to skylar, not you.

 

[Syriusly]

[Q
What is the applicable part of the Constitution of the United States that states Ted Cruz is not eligible to be President of the United States?

Why do you think Skylar is claiming that the Constitution says that?

He claims only birthright of the soil is contained therein and I want to prove he is full of

No he doesn't.

He has clearly stated otherwise by pointing out the analysis of Wong Kim Ark.

Really- do not get the issue Skylar is raising?

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible.

Then you need remedial reading also.

Like I said-

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible

Here are posts from Skylar earlier in this thread:

#39​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yup. There's only natural born (citizen at birth) or naturalized (citizen after birth).

The only exception is oddly....Puerto Ricans. Who congress have designated with the legal unicorn 'naturalized at birth'.

Never anyone but Puerto Ricans. Never before. Never since. And Cruz isn't Puerto Rican. Leaving only natural born (citizen at birth).

#41
If he's a citizen at birth, he's natural born. And thus eligible to be president. As there is only natural born (citizen at birth) and naturalized (citizen after birth).

Unless he's Puerto Rican. Silly, but true.

And Cruz was a US citizen at birth. And not Puerto Rican. Meaning he's eligible.


So you don't have a clue what Skylar is arguing- do you?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

[Q
What is the applicable part of the Constitution of the United States that states Ted Cruz is not eligible to be President of the United States?

Why do you think Skylar is claiming that the Constitution says that?

He claims only birthright of the soil is contained therein and I want to prove he is full of

No he doesn't.

He has clearly stated otherwise by pointing out the analysis of Wong Kim Ark.

Really- do not get the issue Skylar is raising?

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible.

Then you need remedial reading also.

Like I said-

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible

Here are posts from Skylar earlier in this thread:

#39​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yup. There's only natural born (citizen at birth) or naturalized (citizen after birth).

The only exception is oddly....Puerto Ricans. Who congress have designated with the legal unicorn 'naturalized at birth'.

Never anyone but Puerto Ricans. Never before. Never since. And Cruz isn't Puerto Rican. Leaving only natural born (citizen at birth).

#41
If he's a citizen at birth, he's natural born. And thus eligible to be president. As there is only natural born (citizen at birth) and naturalized (citizen after birth).

Unless he's Puerto Rican. Silly, but true.

And Cruz was a US citizen at birth. And not Puerto Rican. Meaning he's eligible.


So you don't have a clue what Skylar is arguing- do you?

Both of you are engaging in a circular argument. First claiming something and then denying it. It's tiring.

You two need to grow up please.

 

[Syriusly]

Why do you think Skylar is claiming that the Constitution says that?

He claims only birthright of the soil is contained therein and I want to prove he is full of

No he doesn't.

He has clearly stated otherwise by pointing out the analysis of Wong Kim Ark.

Really- do not get the issue Skylar is raising?

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible.

Then you need remedial reading also.

Like I said-

Hint: Skylar is not saying Cruz is ineligible

Here are posts from Skylar earlier in this thread:

#39​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yup. There's only natural born (citizen at birth) or naturalized (citizen after birth).

The only exception is oddly....Puerto Ricans. Who congress have designated with the legal unicorn 'naturalized at birth'.

Never anyone but Puerto Ricans. Never before. Never since. And Cruz isn't Puerto Rican. Leaving only natural born (citizen at birth).

#41
If he's a citizen at birth, he's natural born. And thus eligible to be president. As there is only natural born (citizen at birth) and naturalized (citizen after birth).

Unless he's Puerto Rican. Silly, but true.

And Cruz was a US citizen at birth. And not Puerto Rican. Meaning he's eligible.


So you don't have a clue what Skylar is arguing- do you?

Both of you are engaging in a circular argument. First claiming something and then denying it. It's tiring.

You two need to grow up please.

What am I denying?

I have consistently and in probably a dozen threads now pointed out that Cruz is eligible- that he is a natural born citizen.

It is not my problem that you don't understand the argument that Skylar has been making- but it has never been that Cruz is not eligible.

 

[jillian]

it is well established law that kids born outside of the USA

of American citizens they in fact are American citizens as well

Only if one of the parents had lived in the u.s. Got a period of time prior to the birth. Offhand I don't recall how long.

 

[jillian]

1, there is no "if". he was born in Canada and held dual citizenship until he gave up his Canadian citizenship to run for president.

2. it is likely he is not a "natural born citizen" but the court has never really ruled on the issue.

So what exactly is a natural born citizen in your opinion?

Whatever the court says it is. But I'm pretty sure you can gauge what I think from my post.

Why do you think the phrase "natural born citizen" was intentionally used instead of citizen"?

Is a person born within the borders of the U.S. an natural born citizen?
Is a person born outside the borders of the U.S. because one or both of the parents are in the military (i.e. Germany, Japan, Korea) a natural born citizen?
Is a person born outside the borders of the U.S. but one or both parents are U.S. citizens and working overseas a natural born citizen?

You didn't answer the question, what is a "natural born citizen"?

1, there is no "if". he was born in Canada and held dual citizenship until he gave up his Canadian citizenship to run for president.

2. it is likely he is not a "natural born citizen" but the court has never really ruled on the issue.

So what exactly is a natural born citizen in your opinion?

Whatever the court says it is. But I'm pretty sure you can gauge what I think from my post.

Why do you think the phrase "natural born citizen" was intentionally used instead of citizen"?

I fully answered the question.

You failed to answer mine.-- which is why use the term "natural citizen" if they only cared about the president bring a citizen"? I know what I believe. But the court will address the issue.

As for being born out of the country on a military base- a military base is American territory. That is why John McCain was eligible for the presidency despite being born in Panama.

That issue is an old one.

which is why use the term "natural citizen" if they only cared about the president bring a citizen"

They didn't want one who was naturalized.

I've read certain sources saying Cruz was naturalized because his parents had lived in Canada for 8 years prior to his birth. You might want to check

 

[jillian]

The GOP vetted Cruz with a fine toothed comb trying to find anything to disqualify him from running for President. They couldn't find anything AND the WANTED TO!
Go climb on another fucking dead horse asshole!
Still wearing your 'Hands Up Don't Shoot' T- shirt in public? Thought not. Fucking stupid Bonobo loser!

No one vetted Cruz idiota. The GOP hates him. And even if they vetted him they don't decide. The court does.

 

[jillian]

Is a person born within the borders of the U.S. an natural born citizen?
Is a person born outside the borders of the U.S. because one or both of the parents are in the military (i.e. Germany, Japan, Korea) a natural born citizen?
Is a person born outside the borders of the U.S. but one or both parents are U.S. citizens and working overseas a natural born citizen?

You didn't answer the question, what is a "natural born citizen"?

I fully answered the question.

You failed to answer mine.-- which is why use the term "natural citizen" if they only cared about the president bring a citizen"? I know what I believe. But the court will address the issue.

As for being born out of the country on a military base- a military base is American territory. That is why John McCain was eligible for the presidency despite being born in Panama.

That issue is an old one.

George Romney was born in Mexico and he was still eligible to run for President.

Actually, that was thoroughly debated at the time. Just as Cruz's eligibility is today.

After thoroughly debating it they determined he was indeed eligible. Just as Cruz is today.

Seems the left can't defend the their candidates so they must try and destroy the opposition.

While I agree that Trump is a liberal candidate, I find it amusing that you consider Trump and Coulter to be 'the left'.

Trump a liberal

 

[jillian]

That's exactly right. Its been established by law. Not by the Constitution. As the State department itself notes when discussing citizenship by blood:

So the question is.....is citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute 'natural born citizenship'? As by definition, such citizenship was NOT part of the original constitution. And thus couldn't be part of the originally recognized definition of 'natural born citizen' written in the constitution.

Well, without a delorean or a blue police box.

If you're using an originalist interpretation of the Constitution, then you have to use the terms of the Constitution as they were understood by the founders.

IF you're using a 'living document' interpretation of the constitution, then you can use ideas that came after. Which includes citizenship for those born outside the US.

Cruz is an originalist.

You dont even know what the constitution is and you try to preach it to us?

Sent from my SM-G386T1 using Tapatalk

Yet he is correct about the Constitution- and you have offered nothing but a worthless personal attack.

No he isnt. The constitution gives congress the power to decide citizenship.

And where did I ever say otherwise? The question isn't if Cruz is a citizen. He clearly is. The question is if citizenship not embodied in the constitution but granted through statute is 'natural born citizenship'?

You following Gomer?

Apparently you dont. The law says he is a citizen. Period. End of discussion

Sent from my SM-G386T1 using Tapatalk

The law says no such thing. He may be. He may not be. The court decides. Not you.

 

[jillian]

Whatever the court says it is. But I'm pretty sure you can gauge what I think from my post.

Why do you think the phrase "natural born citizen" was intentionally used instead of citizen"?

Is a person born within the borders of the U.S. an natural born citizen?
Is a person born outside the borders of the U.S. because one or both of the parents are in the military (i.e. Germany, Japan, Korea) a natural born citizen?
Is a person born outside the borders of the U.S. but one or both parents are U.S. citizens and working overseas a natural born citizen?

You didn't answer the question, what is a "natural born citizen"?

Whatever the court says it is. But I'm pretty sure you can gauge what I think from my post.

Why do you think the phrase "natural born citizen" was intentionally used instead of citizen"?

I fully answered the question.

You failed to answer mine.-- which is why use the term "natural citizen" if they only cared about the president bring a citizen"? I know what I believe. But the court will address the issue.

As for being born out of the country on a military base- a military base is American territory. That is why John McCain was eligible for the presidency despite being born in Panama.

That issue is an old one.

which is why use the term "natural citizen" if they only cared about the president bring a citizen"

They didn't want one who was naturalized.

maybe

again this has never really been before the court.

maybe

No, they definitely did not want one who was naturalized. No maybe about it.

I know that. But I don't think it's that narrow. Again for the umpteenth time, we can discuss this until we're blue. The court decides.

And again. Check. I read that Cruz was naturalized.