If the Space Station could spin on a central axis how much speed would it need to create gravity?

[westwall]

Why? Isn't the point of false gravity to simulate light gravity and bypass the need for external measures?

I don't think the space station is designed for the perimeter to be used as a floor. That might be something to consider if another is built.

No doubt it isn't. I just don't get why. Cost? Technical restraints? Risk?

I think that there is an enormous cost to countering the gyroscopic effect of a spinning disk as it orbits a large body like the Earth.

If you're not familiar, take a bike tire and find a way to hold the axle part of the wheel, then spin it real fast. Then, sit on a stool that can turn and turn the wheel. You'll start turning as the centrifugal force exerts itself.

ETA:

This isn't being done in a vacuum. HUUUUUGE dif.

So? You think angular momentum is negated in a vacuum? A gyroscope, which his experiment demonstrates, works fine.in a vacuum. How do you think they maintain their attitude instead of spinning wildly?

Nope. I never said that. In atmosphere though, the friction of the air has a huge effect that you need not worry about in space. That is the point I was making. It removes one very significant variable.

 

[martybegan]

They would need to be magnetized.

Why? Isn't the point of false gravity to simulate light gravity and bypass the need for external measures?

All objects with gravity are due to its magnetic core and the field of flux..Normally an iron core...Just like in yer transformers.

You've never stuck to the wall of a spinning barrel at an amusement park have you lol

The problem is this doesn't create "gravity" which is caused by the intrinsic properties of mass. What it creates is centripetal force, which can simulate but not truly replace gravity.

The real issue isn't the rotation speed itself, it's getting the required force gradient at a LOW enough speed that there is as small a head to foot gradient in the force as possible.

What you don't want is a person's legs feeling a much different force than their head.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Need magnetic boots............To stick to the side walls.............Then rotate the station to equal 9.8 m per second squared...........Amount of force would be mass times acceleration....???????

Magnetic boots, why?

So you would attach to the outer surface of the spinning object. Just spinning it wouldn't make you gain gravity.....you'd still float if not attached to something to push back against you.

I wore no gravity boots when sticking to the inner wall of a massive spinning barrel as a youth in an amusement park.

I don't see boots being useful.

That was the whole point. Once your velocity matches that of the wall you are pushed against, you will always feel an outward force (actually, it would be a straight line force and you are being turned by the wall). If you were able to push away, or jump away, your momentum would slow (unless you are in a vacuum) and the spin beneath you would continue on. The same effect as the floor spinning past you.

I just remember the ride. For awhile you could move around on the wall quite freely with no support but the faster it went I was eventually plastered solid against the wall and couldn't even lift my hands off of it.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

They would need to be magnetized.

Why? Isn't the point of false gravity to simulate light gravity and bypass the need for external measures?

All objects with gravity are due to its magnetic core and the field of flux..Normally an iron core...Just like in yer transformers.

You've never stuck to the wall of a spinning barrel at an amusement park have you lol

The problem is this doesn't create "gravity" which is caused by the intrinsic properties of mass. What it creates is centripetal force, which can simulate but not truly replace gravity.

The real issue isn't the rotation speed itself, it's getting the required force gradient at a LOW enough speed that there is as small a head to foot gradient in the force as possible.

What you don't want is a person's legs feeling a much different force than their head.

This I can relate to based on my memory of that ride. That ride which caused a lot of people to puke lol. So much so that there was a warning about it before you got on.

 

[BULLDOG]

Why? Isn't the point of false gravity to simulate light gravity and bypass the need for external measures?

All objects with gravity are due to its magnetic core and the field of flux..Normally an iron core...Just like in yer transformers.

You've never stuck to the wall of a spinning barrel at an amusement park have you lol

that is not really gravity

if it was we all would be flung off the face of the earth

It's syntrifical force which is the same thing I'm talking about.

And if not for the gravity of the earths mass we would fly off as a result of the rotation.

actually centripetal force is what is required in your space ship to create artificial gravity

Takes both. Centrifugal force. or "apparent" force pushes outward from the central rotating point holding the astronauts to the circumference of the station. Centripetal force is exerted by the shell towards the center rotating point, counteracting the centrifugal force.

 

[Darkwind]

Start at 24 minutes to get to the bottom line of a spinning disk and its force.

Once again, this is NOT IN A VACUUM!

True, it's a crude example of the forces that must be dealt with regarding a spinning disk.

The entire system becomes even more complicated by the large centrifugal force, is linear speed regarding travel around the Earth, and the Earths influence upon the entire Station. All of these must be balanced in order to provide a form of gravity.

All of which is absolutely true, but it is not a huge deal either. The bigger issue is docking resupply missions. That is probably why they haven't bothered to do it yet. So long as we are dealing with small stations there simply is no room for error. A one millimeter miss is going to be catastrophic.

Yes. And the energy requirement necessary to start/stop the rotation if the craft we use is insufficient to match velocities. They would either have to dock at the Axis or stop and then restart the rotation.

My bet would be to dock at the axis where the force is essentially zero.

Then the bigger problem becomes the steering forces.

The video I posted, after the 30 minute marks, speaks toward the gyroscopic forces and its tendency to chase torque.

 

[martybegan]

They would need to be magnetized.

Why? Isn't the point of false gravity to simulate light gravity and bypass the need for external measures?

All objects with gravity are due to its magnetic core and the field of flux..Normally an iron core...Just like in yer transformers.

You've never stuck to the wall of a spinning barrel at an amusement park have you lol

The problem is this doesn't create "gravity" which is caused by the intrinsic properties of mass. What it creates is centripetal force, which can simulate but not truly replace gravity.

The real issue isn't the rotation speed itself, it's getting the required force gradient at a LOW enough speed that there is as small a head to foot gradient in the force as possible.

What you don't want is a person's legs feeling a much different force than their head.

This I can relate to based on my memory of that ride. That ride which caused a lot of people to puke lol. So much so that there was a warning about it before you got on.

You could also notice it if you kept your hands out before the ride was going too fast. you could keep your arms out because the force was decreased greatly away from the wall (because the radius of the cylinder was so small)

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Why? Isn't the point of false gravity to simulate light gravity and bypass the need for external measures?

All objects with gravity are due to its magnetic core and the field of flux..Normally an iron core...Just like in yer transformers.

You've never stuck to the wall of a spinning barrel at an amusement park have you lol

The problem is this doesn't create "gravity" which is caused by the intrinsic properties of mass. What it creates is centripetal force, which can simulate but not truly replace gravity.

The real issue isn't the rotation speed itself, it's getting the required force gradient at a LOW enough speed that there is as small a head to foot gradient in the force as possible.

What you don't want is a person's legs feeling a much different force than their head.

This I can relate to based on my memory of that ride. That ride which caused a lot of people to puke lol. So much so that there was a warning about it before you got on.

You could also notice it if you kept your hands out before the ride was going too fast. you could keep your arms out because the force was decreased greatly away from the wall (because the radius of the cylinder was so small)

I dont think that was possible. The ride was probably 20 or 30 feet across. It was a really bizarre experience

 

[westwall]

Start at 24 minutes to get to the bottom line of a spinning disk and its force.

Once again, this is NOT IN A VACUUM!

True, it's a crude example of the forces that must be dealt with regarding a spinning disk.

The entire system becomes even more complicated by the large centrifugal force, is linear speed regarding travel around the Earth, and the Earths influence upon the entire Station. All of these must be balanced in order to provide a form of gravity.

All of which is absolutely true, but it is not a huge deal either. The bigger issue is docking resupply missions. That is probably why they haven't bothered to do it yet. So long as we are dealing with small stations there simply is no room for error. A one millimeter miss is going to be catastrophic.

Yes. And the energy requirement necessary to start/stop the rotation if the craft we use is insufficient to match velocities. They would either have to dock at the Axis or stop and then restart the rotation.

My bet would be to dock at the axis where the force is essentially zero.

Then the bigger problem becomes the steering forces.

The video I posted, after the 30 minute marks, speaks toward the gyroscopic forces and its tendency to chase torque.

Yes indeed. Docking anywhere except along the central axis would be not smart! That was one thing that 2001 got very right. Your point about how the gyro's chase torque is very important as well. That's why you have to use so many in space to counter that effect. None of it by itself is very hard, but tying everything together is very, very complex!

 

[Tax Man]

The concept is obviously sound so why is it not done to help the astronauts with muscle atrophy?

Spinning does not create gravity it creates momentum. Gravity is molecular pull.

 

[Darkwind]

Need magnetic boots............To stick to the side walls.............Then rotate the station to equal 9.8 m per second squared...........Amount of force would be mass times acceleration....???????

Magnetic boots, why?

So you would attach to the outer surface of the spinning object. Just spinning it wouldn't make you gain gravity.....you'd still float if not attached to something to push back against you.

I wore no gravity boots when sticking to the inner wall of a massive spinning barrel as a youth in an amusement park.

I don't see boots being useful.

That was the whole point. Once your velocity matches that of the wall you are pushed against, you will always feel an outward force (actually, it would be a straight line force and you are being turned by the wall). If you were able to push away, or jump away, your momentum would slow (unless you are in a vacuum) and the spin beneath you would continue on. The same effect as the floor spinning past you.

I just remember the ride. For awhile you could move around on the wall quite freely with no support but the faster it went I was eventually plastered solid against the wall and couldn't even lift my hands off of it.

Yeah, that is how they simulate gravity greater than that of Earth. At about 6 or 7g you should be unable to move...at 9g, you'll pass out. Pilots have to deal with those kinds of forces.

I remember the ride you're talking about. You were in a large container like a UFO and it spun and then the floor dropped out and you were held in place.

Was IT the Orbit? Or something like that.

 

[BULLDOG]

If spun, all the solar panels and extraneous bits would have to be built to endure the force.

There is no force to build against. I thought you guys were all sciency. You have no clue what you're talking about.

The centrifugal force that produces the false gravity sounds like a force to me. The effective weight of the astronauts and all equipment supported by the perimeter of the station would certainly have to be countered. Of course a cylinder is ideally suited for that.

You need a counter force for pressure to be created. They could "shake" lose from the vibrations of the spin I suppose but there should be no external force applied against them.

See centrifugal force vs centripetal force.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

The concept is obviously sound so why is it not done to help the astronauts with muscle atrophy?

Spinning does not create gravity it creates force. Gravity is molecular pull.

Thank you mister obvious. Everyone in this thread gets the point

 

[Darkwind]

Start at 24 minutes to get to the bottom line of a spinning disk and its force.

Once again, this is NOT IN A VACUUM!

True, it's a crude example of the forces that must be dealt with regarding a spinning disk.

The entire system becomes even more complicated by the large centrifugal force, is linear speed regarding travel around the Earth, and the Earths influence upon the entire Station. All of these must be balanced in order to provide a form of gravity.

All of which is absolutely true, but it is not a huge deal either. The bigger issue is docking resupply missions. That is probably why they haven't bothered to do it yet. So long as we are dealing with small stations there simply is no room for error. A one millimeter miss is going to be catastrophic.

Yes. And the energy requirement necessary to start/stop the rotation if the craft we use is insufficient to match velocities. They would either have to dock at the Axis or stop and then restart the rotation.

My bet would be to dock at the axis where the force is essentially zero.

Then the bigger problem becomes the steering forces.

The video I posted, after the 30 minute marks, speaks toward the gyroscopic forces and its tendency to chase torque.

Yes indeed. Docking anywhere except along the central axis would be not smart! That was one thing that 2001 got very right. Your point about how the gyro's chase torque is very important as well. That's why you have to use so many in space to counter that effect. None of it by itself is very hard, but tying everything together is very, very complex!

Yep, but very useful to changing direction.

 

[BULLDOG]

If spun, all the solar panels and extraneous bits would have to be built to endure the force.

There is no force to build against. I thought you guys were all sciency. You have no clue what you're talking about.

The centrifugal force that produces the false gravity sounds like a force to me. The effective weight of the astronauts and all equipment supported by the perimeter of the station would certainly have to be countered. Of course a cylinder is ideally suited for that.

Indeed, but the implication was to reinforce against an external force. The station can be engineered to handle its own forces without additional weight. It's simply a case of places struts in different locations.

I didn't catch that implication.

 

[eagle1462010]

Ok. put them in sleeping chambers that are small circles and spin them to sleep to give them the feeling of gravity while sleeping.........

LOL. I don't know.........

 

[westwall]

Once again, this is NOT IN A VACUUM!

True, it's a crude example of the forces that must be dealt with regarding a spinning disk.

The entire system becomes even more complicated by the large centrifugal force, is linear speed regarding travel around the Earth, and the Earths influence upon the entire Station. All of these must be balanced in order to provide a form of gravity.

All of which is absolutely true, but it is not a huge deal either. The bigger issue is docking resupply missions. That is probably why they haven't bothered to do it yet. So long as we are dealing with small stations there simply is no room for error. A one millimeter miss is going to be catastrophic.

Yes. And the energy requirement necessary to start/stop the rotation if the craft we use is insufficient to match velocities. They would either have to dock at the Axis or stop and then restart the rotation.

My bet would be to dock at the axis where the force is essentially zero.

Then the bigger problem becomes the steering forces.

The video I posted, after the 30 minute marks, speaks toward the gyroscopic forces and its tendency to chase torque.

Yes indeed. Docking anywhere except along the central axis would be not smart! That was one thing that 2001 got very right. Your point about how the gyro's chase torque is very important as well. That's why you have to use so many in space to counter that effect. None of it by itself is very hard, but tying everything together is very, very complex!

Yep, but very useful to changing direction.

Oh, I would say they are ESSENTIAL in changing direction!

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Magnetic boots, why?

So you would attach to the outer surface of the spinning object. Just spinning it wouldn't make you gain gravity.....you'd still float if not attached to something to push back against you.

I wore no gravity boots when sticking to the inner wall of a massive spinning barrel as a youth in an amusement park.

I don't see boots being useful.

That was the whole point. Once your velocity matches that of the wall you are pushed against, you will always feel an outward force (actually, it would be a straight line force and you are being turned by the wall). If you were able to push away, or jump away, your momentum would slow (unless you are in a vacuum) and the spin beneath you would continue on. The same effect as the floor spinning past you.

I just remember the ride. For awhile you could move around on the wall quite freely with no support but the faster it went I was eventually plastered solid against the wall and couldn't even lift my hands off of it.

Yeah, that is how they simulate gravity greater than that of Earth. At about 6 or 7g you should be unable to move...at 9g, you'll pass out. Pilots have to deal with those kinds of forces.

I remember the ride you're talking about. You were in a large container like a UFO and it spun and then the floor dropped out and you were held in place.

Was IT the Orbit? Or something like that.

I don't remember the name.

 

[BULLDOG]

Need magnetic boots............To stick to the side walls.............Then rotate the station to equal 9.8 m per second squared...........Amount of force would be mass times acceleration....???????

Magnetic boots, why?

So you would attach to the outer surface of the spinning object. Just spinning it wouldn't make you gain gravity.....you'd still float if not attached to something to push back against you.

I wore no gravity boots when sticking to the inner wall of a massive spinning barrel as a youth in an amusement park.

I don't see boots being useful.

That was the whole point. Once your velocity matches that of the wall you are pushed against, you will always feel an outward force (actually, it would be a straight line force and you are being turned by the wall). If you were able to push away, or jump away, your momentum would slow (unless you are in a vacuum) and the spin beneath you would continue on. The same effect as the floor spinning past you.

As long as you maintain rotational momentum, which you will with no external force acting against it, centrifugal force will return you to the shell. Of course you must first gain that rotational momentum by holding on to the shell, but after that, you're good to go.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]