In the Absence of God; Human rights cannot exist.

[Diuretic]

Who is the greater "coward"? The person who believes there is no point to life, that if you can get away with harming others and have "fun" while you are doing it -more power to you, have at it, -because after all, the person with the most toys at the end "wins"?

Or the person who believes that life is God's gift and precious -and tries to consistently live and treat others with that in mind at all times? And when he fails, picks himself back up and still tries to do so again? Which set of beliefs takes more effort, more sense of a higher purpose than self and more moral strength to live by?

Atheists are convinced that had they been "running" things all along and man never held religious beliefs of any kind ever - the world would be much better place. No, it wouldn't have been -an impossibility. It would be an existence no better than seen in the animal kingdom -one of survival of the fittest. The biggest dog rules and the weak are kicked to the curb. There would never have been any reason for mankind to develop a sense of morality any more than any of the species of animals who have been occupying this earth far, far longer than man has - have developed a sense of "morality". They haven't because morality isn't necessary for the survival and propagation of the species -and it isn't necessary for ours either. If the species of man had always been atheist, we would have the same code of existence - survival of the fittest.

A male lion taking over a pride will kill all the nursing young of any females in that pride so the females will come into heat quickly, he can mate with them and have them raise his offspring instead of some other male's. A pitiless, cold fact of life for lions -and no "morality" involved, it is neither right or wrong -it just is.

If man had remained atheist then there would be no such thing as right or wrong within our species either. As it is with animals, life for man would be just as cold and pitiless and no reason for that to ever change. Man would never have any reason to develop a sense of morality because it isn't necessary for survival of the species. In fact it is arguable that it would seriously hinder the survival of the species since it meant diverting scarce resources to unproductive and weak members unable to contribute to the whole. As an atheist species, it wouldn't matter if I stole a little old lady's last bite of food, if I decided to stop feeding my baby, if I decided to kill my wheelchair-bound spouse. All would be noncontributing members -always the most readily disposed of by any species.

Today's laws that says those acts are wrong -were never born of atheism in the first place and could not have been. They were born of religious belief that this earthly existence isn't all there is, life serves a far greater purpose than just self and that there ARE consequences for our acts - even if we get away with them in this life. NOW atheists want to go ahead and have society continue using that morality and sense of right and wrong -while insisting everyone should dump the only reason they even came into existence -and pretend it represents an "improvement" for society as a whole. By becoming a species of individuals who believe life is pointless, without meaning and there is no higher purpose than self and self-indulgence? When it would also mean being a moral person is pointless and meaningless as well -and the growing belief that "right" is whatever is good for me and "wrong" is whatever isn't personally good for me.

Giving in to all sorts of temptations with the notion that as long as they harm no one else but myself then it doesn't matter, a belief in a pointless and meaningless existence and that none of it matters anyway - is the cheap, easy refuge of the weak. Trying to live in accordance with the belief that life is God's gift and truly precious, that life serves a far greater purpose than mere self, failing at times and still getting up and striving to do so again - especially when people like you deride, mock and spit on that belief - truly takes courage.

While you mock the beliefs of others as a "fairy tale", just consider what YOU believe. You believe that life has no meaning, that man is merely the "natural" result of meaningless, pointless and random evolution from non-living goo. Aside from the fact that we know life cannot possibly result from nonliving materials and therefore isn't something "natural" at all -the reality is also something you can only try to explain away as nothing but the greatest irony of all. That the highest form of that "random and meaningless" life to ever evolve in the known universe -is the ONLY one to have spent its entire existence searching for meaning.

I’m going to jump in here and have a say. But I understand that your post is directed at MC.

But there are some interesting points which I must contest.

In your third paragraph you’ve – correct me if I’m wrong of course – assumed that atheists are necessarily amoral. That’s not so. The reason is that human morality doesn’t spring from religion, it is a product of reason.

Humans were never “atheist” as a species. As soon as the first humans developed sufficient brainpower to begin to develop a sense of self they began to think about themselves and their place in the universe. The religious impulse is ancient and deep in humans. Choosing to be an atheist is an act of progression from the religious state.

You’ve touched on the meaning of life in paragraph 6. If you see worship of God and the hope of an afterlife then that’s fine. But others might see the meaning of life as something else. Just because they don’t need the worship of God and the associated hope of an afterlife that doesn’t make them less worthy than those who profess a religion.

Summing up – morality doesn’t and never required religion for its development. The moral codes we have now were studied by non-Christian philosophers. Those philosophers may have worshipped a pantheon of gods, but maybe they didn’t, maybe they were the earliest of atheists.

To go back to your question. Who is the greater “coward”? The person who has to believe in a god and an afterlife to make meaning of life or the person who accepts his or her own mortality and seeks to live a good life while they exist, accepting that death is the end of that individual but that they can leave a legacy of good acts and well adjusted children who grew up to be well adjusted adults?

And in any case – is there any point in anyone claiming moral superiority in either case?

 

[HumptyDumpty]

I have this ability to shove my nose in where it's not wanted. Call it a learned behaviour. I also call it, adding to the mix.

too shay!

 

[WhiteLion]

I’m going to jump in here and have a say. But I understand that your post is directed at MC.

But there are some interesting points which I must contest.

In your third paragraph you’ve – correct me if I’m wrong of course – assumed that atheists are necessarily amoral. That’s not so. The reason is that human morality doesn’t spring from religion, it is a product of reason.

Humans were never “atheist” as a species. As soon as the first humans developed sufficient brainpower to begin to develop a sense of self they began to think about themselves and their place in the universe. The religious impulse is ancient and deep in humans. Choosing to be an atheist is an act of progression from the religious state.

You’ve touched on the meaning of life in paragraph 6. If you see worship of God and the hope of an afterlife then that’s fine. But others might see the meaning of life as something else. Just because they don’t need the worship of God and the associated hope of an afterlife that doesn’t make them less worthy than those who profess a religion.

Summing up – morality doesn’t and never required religion for its development. The moral codes we have now were studied by non-Christian philosophers. Those philosophers may have worshipped a pantheon of gods, but maybe they didn’t, maybe they were the earliest of atheists.

To go back to your question. Who is the greater “coward”? The person who has to believe in a god and an afterlife to make meaning of life or the person who accepts his or her own mortality and seeks to live a good life while they exist, accepting that death is the end of that individual but that they can leave a legacy of good acts and well adjusted children who grew up to be well adjusted adults?

And in any case – is there any point in anyone claiming moral superiority in either case?

Atheist dont believe in a life after this one, is true, therefore no substance or consequence, no substant benchmark of accountability, that"s why to atheist, life has no value, life is cheapened, and therefore to athiest hopeless at best. Atheism and Evolution are the reason we have aborted over 40,000,000 American Christian babies from 1974 to date, if you divide the number of Jewish people burned in the ovens of the Auschwitz and the German crematoriums 6,000,000,,, into the number of American Christian babies aborted in the USA 40,000,000 the quotiant is 6.66666666666666666 into infinity, thanks to the atheist that have infilltrated our constitution and used it against us, we have now crossed a moral boundry in America and sure as the blood of Able cried out from the earth to GOD all this blood is on someones hands as well...Atheist only real philosophy is rationalizing away of the truth of GODs Love and to decieve many. Atheism and Evolution are the foundations of their lying religion...

 

[frazzledgear]

I’m going to jump in here and have a say. But I understand that your post is directed at MC.

But there are some interesting points which I must contest.

In your third paragraph you’ve – correct me if I’m wrong of course – assumed that atheists are necessarily amoral. That’s not so. The reason is that human morality doesn’t spring from religion, it is a product of reason.

I am not assuming that atheists TODAY are amoral -they are reared in a world where morality already exists. I am saying that if atheism had been the human norm and man never had religious beliefs and the belief that life had greater purpose than this earthly existence -man could not and would not have EVER developed morality. A species that is ALWAYS atheistic cannot possibly develop a sense of right and wrong since no such thing exists. If life has no meaning and is purposeless, then there is no such thing as a "wrong" act committed by any life form -including man. Just as there is no "right and wrong" about it when a male lion kills the young of all females when it takes over the pride. Just like there is no "right or wrong" about it when a female black widow spider kills its mate right after mating. It just IS.

You are wrong to think morality is merely the product of reason. There are several species with the ability to reason and on a very complex level that rivals that of humans. Yet have never developed a sense of morality and never will. Reason did not result in morality because while the ability to reason does contribute to the survival and propagation of the species -morality does not.

Count on an atheist to try and cut out the role religious belief actually played in yet one more part of human history - when in fact it had everything to do with it.

Humans were never “atheist” as a species. As soon as the first humans developed sufficient brainpower to begin to develop a sense of self they began to think about themselves and their place in the universe. The religious impulse is ancient and deep in humans. Choosing to be an atheist is an act of progression from the religious state. .

Did you actually read what you wrote? You are saying exactly what I've said before. Humans are hardwired with the need to worship something greater than themselves. Unlike all other species on earth -and in spite of the fact that there are other species that rival humans for both intelligence and reasoning abilities, man is the only species so hardwired. They are because it makes it easier for man to ultimately find God who did not intend it to be difficult. Choosing to be an atheist isn't a "progression" -except to the atheist who deludes himself it endows him with some kind of intellectual superiority.

Since the overwhelming vast majority of humans believe in some kind of Supreme Being -atheism is actually an aberration. Evidence has been found that even among the most rudimentary bands of humans struggling daily for mere survival and without the luxury of sitting around and "contemplating their place in the universe" felt that need to find God just as much as a more advanced culture that had far more free time on their hands.

You’ve touched on the meaning of life in paragraph 6. If you see worship of God and the hope of an afterlife then that’s fine. But others might see the meaning of life as something else. Just because they don’t need the worship of God and the associated hope of an afterlife that doesn’t make them less worthy than those who profess a religion.

Summing up – morality doesn’t and never required religion for its development. The moral codes we have now were studied by non-Christian philosophers. Those philosophers may have worshipped a pantheon of gods, but maybe they didn’t, maybe they were the earliest of atheists..

I have to laugh at that one. For atheists -there is no real meaning to life beyond a sense of self and nothing more. To listen to an atheist try and explain the "meaning" of life to me when the fact they are an atheist already means they believe it has no real meaning at all is a joke. It doesn't mean an atheist cannot live a good and prosperous life, or doesn't desire to leave behind well-adjusted, productive children and to be remembered by at least the following generation as well. But an atheist is essentially saying that no matter how he lived his own life, even if he left behind happy descendants -in the end it had no greater meaning than if his mother had aborted him shortly before birth. For an atheist, its "you are born, you live and you die" -whatever you fill up that in-between time doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Whether a person filled it up with really good and moral behavior or that of a violent criminal instead -in the end it doesn't matter.

To go back to your question. Who is the greater “coward”? The person who has to believe in a god and an afterlife to make meaning of life or the person who accepts his or her own mortality and seeks to live a good life while they exist, accepting that death is the end of that individual but that they can leave a legacy of good acts and well adjusted children who grew up to be well adjusted adults?

And in any case – is there any point in anyone claiming moral superiority in either case?

First of all -no one was claiming moral superiority in this discussion. At no time did I even suggest that all atheists have worse morals than someone with religious beliefs.

But you mistakenly assume that those who believe in God think they HAVE to as if it couldn't possibly be a rational decision or do for weird reasons like they just couldn't deal with life without that "crutch" or are afraid of dying, etc. All while the atheist pats himself on the back pretending their decision to be an atheist was this well thought out process and decision requiring all sorts of rational decision-making and critical thinking skills of the highest level and represents a "progression"! LOL Not true. I was an atheist from the time I was a teenager until my mid-30s. It didn't take me long at all to decide I was an atheist and I didn't spend any time thinking about how I even made that decision for the next 20 years. Whereas I spent far more time using far more critical thinking skills than I ever employed in my initial decision to be an atheist before becoming a Christian.

But as an atheist, I did spend plenty of time doing the exact same kind of mocking and insulting so many atheists do here about those with religious beliefs. I held the same incredibly smug, self-righteous and arrogant belief that because I didn't believe in God, it somehow made me FAR more intelligent and rational than those idiot God-believing fools. I referred to it as a "fairy tale" and even said on numerous occasions that the Virgin birth was the "world's greatest hoax". So there isn't anything any atheist can say here now that I hadn't already said to someone else when I was one. I will tell you the mocking and insulting isn't going to sway someone from their faith. The only thing I feel whenever one of you does it, is shame that I once said similar things with that same arrogance and smugness.

But having experienced both atheism and Christianity as a full grown, highly educated and very intelligent adult -I know something now that I didn't know when I decided to "progress" to atheism. Atheism is just a form of narcissism. And is never a measure of intelligence and rational thinking whatsoever.

 

[Diuretic]

I am not assuming that atheists TODAY are amoral -they are reared in a world where morality already exists. I am saying that if atheism had been the human norm and man never had religious beliefs and the belief that life had greater purpose than this earthly existence -man could not and would not have EVER developed morality. A species that is ALWAYS atheistic cannot possibly develop a sense of right and wrong since no such thing exists. If life has no meaning and is purposeless, then there is no such thing as a "wrong" act committed by any life form -including man. Just as there is no "right and wrong" about it when a male lion kills the young of all females when it takes over the pride. Just like there is no "right or wrong" about it when a female black widow spider kills its mate right after mating. It just IS.

You are wrong to think morality is merely the product of reason. There are several species with the ability to reason and on a very complex level that rivals that of humans. Yet have never developed a sense of morality and never will. Reason did not result in morality because while the ability to reason does contribute to the survival and propagation of the species -morality does not.

Count on an atheist to try and cut out the role religious belief actually played in yet one more part of human history - when in fact it had everything to do with it.



Did you actually read what you wrote? You are saying exactly what I've said before. Humans are hardwired with the need to worship something greater than themselves. Unlike all other species on earth -and in spite of the fact that there are other species that rival humans for both intelligence and reasoning abilities, man is the only species so hardwired. They are because it makes it easier for man to ultimately find God who did not intend it to be difficult. Choosing to be an atheist isn't a "progression" -except to the atheist who deludes himself it endows him with some kind of intellectual superiority.

Since the overwhelming vast majority of humans believe in some kind of Supreme Being -atheism is actually an aberration. Evidence has been found that even among the most rudimentary bands of humans struggling daily for mere survival and without the luxury of sitting around and "contemplating their place in the universe" felt that need to find God just as much as a more advanced culture that had far more free time on their hands.



I have to laugh at that one. For atheists -there is no real meaning to life beyond a sense of self and nothing more. To listen to an atheist try and explain the "meaning" of life to me when the fact they are an atheist already means they believe it has no real meaning at all is a joke. It doesn't mean an atheist cannot live a good and prosperous life, or doesn't desire to leave behind well-adjusted, productive children and to be remembered by at least the following generation as well. But an atheist is essentially saying that no matter how he lived his own life, even if he left behind happy descendants -in the end it had no greater meaning than if his mother had aborted him shortly before birth. For an atheist, its "you are born, you live and you die" -whatever you fill up that in-between time doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Whether a person filled it up with really good and moral behavior or that of a violent criminal instead -in the end it doesn't matter.



First of all -no one was claiming moral superiority in this discussion. At no time did I even suggest that all atheists have worse morals than someone with religious beliefs.

But you mistakenly assume that those who believe in God think they HAVE to as if it couldn't possibly be a rational decision or do for weird reasons like they just couldn't deal with life without that "crutch" or are afraid of dying, etc. All while the atheist pats himself on the back pretending their decision to be an atheist was this well thought out process and decision requiring all sorts of rational decision-making and critical thinking skills of the highest level and represents a "progression"! LOL Not true. I was an atheist from the time I was a teenager until my mid-30s. It didn't take me long at all to decide I was an atheist and I didn't spend any time thinking about how I even made that decision for the next 20 years. Whereas I spent far more time using far more critical thinking skills than I ever employed in my initial decision to be an atheist before becoming a Christian.

But as an atheist, I did spend plenty of time doing the exact same kind of mocking and insulting so many atheists do here about those with religious beliefs. I held the same incredibly smug, self-righteous and arrogant belief that because I didn't believe in God, it somehow made me FAR more intelligent and rational than those idiot God-believing fools. I referred to it as a "fairy tale" and even said on numerous occasions that the Virgin birth was the "world's greatest hoax". So there isn't anything any atheist can say here now that I hadn't already said to someone else when I was one. I will tell you the mocking and insulting isn't going to sway someone from their faith. The only thing I feel whenever one of you does it, is shame that I once said similar things with that same arrogance and smugness.

But having experienced both atheism and Christianity as a full grown, highly educated and very intelligent adult -I know something now that I didn't know when I decided to "progress" to atheism. Atheism is just a form of narcissism. And is never a measure of intelligence and rational thinking whatsoever.

Atheism as the norm – humans would never have developed morality (paraphrased).

Let me deal with that claim first.

Morality – and I suppose we need to agree terminology – is about what’s right, what’s good, what’s just. That takes a social context. If I am a lone individual in nature then nothing is inherently right or wrong, it just is. Whatever is best for me is what I want. Since I’m a lone individual in nature I’m not accountable in any way to anyone else. I don’t need to think about morality. I only need to do what’s best for me.

But if I’m not a lone individual in nature and I am living with other humans then we need to work out a code of conduct between us. So, after trial and error and communication between individuals we work out a code of conduct.

Let me take one aspect.

Let’s say that the first rule is that we agree not to try and kill each other. Where does that come from? It comes from reason. It makes sense to have a code that says that the members of my in-group will not kill each other. Every individual benefits from that and the in-group itself is strengthened. We did that by reason, we didn’t get it from a deity.

We’re primitive, we have no means of healing illness or disease or injury behind the extremely rudimentary. We live at a subsistence level, we are nomadic hunter-gatherers. If someone gets sick and they can’t travel with us then will leave them to die. Is that amoral or is it moral? It’s a form of primitive utilitarianism. It has not been handed to us by a deity, we worked it out using reason

We’ve worked out that killing someone from our in-group is not beneficial to individual or group. We prohibit it. Let’s call it “wrong”.

But allowing a member of our in-group to die so that the group can improve its chances of survival – as a group and as an aggregate of individuals – is not prohibited because that custom ensures survival of the greater number. We can do it. Let’s call it “right”.

I’m wrong that morality is the product of reason (paraphrased).

Your reference to the behaviour of lions or black widow spiders is a reference to instinct. Instinct exists in all sentient beings. Instinct has no connection with morality. Animals without the brainpower of humans (as a species) don’t reason, they act out of instinct. Humans reason because of the large cerebral cortex.

You mentioned that there are several species with the ability to reason in manner that rivals humans. I’m not convinced by that claim and I ask you to produce evidence for it.

Humans are not an “atheist” species (paraphrased)

I know what I wrote because I thought about it before I wrote it.

I said there was a religious impulse in humans. That religious impulse is a product of that big cerebral cortex again. Do you think any other animal goes through the sort of existential angst of which humans are capable? Have you ever seen a primate other than homo sapiens wondering about its place in the universe?

That ability to wonder about the universe is a mental ability unique to humans. Religious belief is a hypothesis created by humans as a result of that unique mental ability. Other animals haven’t produced signs of having a religious impulse. Other animals don’t have the cerebral cortex that humans have. See the possible connection there?

“Why am I here?” “What/who created all this?” These are questions produced from reason. It must be because of a deity, is a hypothesis produced from reason.

The belief that there are deities who created everything is a hypothesis widely shared across time and space by humans. All humans have a large cerebral cortex. That large cerebral cortex allows thinking in abstract forms. We, unlike other species, have the power of wonder. We also have the power to provide answers to quell that wonder.

In Australian Aboriginal dreaming stories there are hypotheses for everything observable and some things which aren’t observable. That mountain range was created when a huge snake came down from the heavens and wriggled around in the mud and threw up huge tracts of earth which hardened and became mountains. We might treat that explanation as implausible because we have our own hypotheses about how those mountains were created (we derived those hypotheses from observation using the scientific method). But in both cases the hypotheses have been created because of the human ability to think.


Atheism as an aberration (paraphrased)

There have always been those who didn’t believe whatever the dominant culture told them was their religion. There has been an improvement. These days atheists aren’t executed for their non-belief.

For atheists there is no real meaning to life.

You’ve had a whine about atheists being arrogant or feeling superior to religious people. In that paragraph you revealed much about yourself. None of it was pleasant. You may defend that attitude on the basis that you are a reformed atheist. It doesn’t wash. You have treated atheists with the same contempt you allege they treat religious people. That breaches one of the oldest moral laws among humans which precedes Christianity’s stricture to “do unto others”. It’s called the ethic of reciprocity – the golden rule. See my reference to the in-group making a rule about not killing each other. I think the oldest religious reference I can find to this in Hinduism. It’s apparent that this possibly oldest of examples of human morality was derived from non-religious reason and absorbed into a whole series of religions. It supports my argument that morality is produced from reason.

Atheism is just a form of narcissism

Atheism is an absence of religion. Narcissism is a minor personality disorder. You’ll need to explain the connection.

You also claim that atheism, “is never a measure of intelligence and rational thinking…”. I’d agree with that. Atheism is not believing in a deity.

When I made the point about human progression I was making a generalised statement. You’ve had a post where you pretty much smeared atheists so in keeping with the ethic of reciprocity let me hand some back.

Humans have produced the hypothesis of religion in response to the sense of awe felt when they were able to think about themselves as something more than an animal functioning on instinct.

Religion grew out of superstition. There was thunder and lightning. That must have meant a superior being in the sky was angry (superstitious hypothesis), better stay out of the way of that lightning (rational response).

If the crops failed then the local gods must be cranky (superstitious hypothesis) so it was necessary to kill a few maidens to appease them so next year there would be crops (irrational response). But then science comes along and says, “hmmmm – you had an insect blight in your harvest, sacrificing maidens won’t do much to prevent that but you could develop an insecticide” (superstitious hypothesis dismantled, scientific hypothesis in its place which leads to a rational and effective response).

It’s called human progress. I’m not arguing that an individual atheist is superior to a religious person. Having spoken to a few Jesuits I would never, ever hold that position.
But I’m arguing that as humans understand more about the universe then religion will be seen to be an inhibiting factor in the quest for the truth and will, of necessity, wither away as we discover more and more truth about our universe.

In a way the deity hypothesis is far too simple. It’s a hypothesis that stretches back many thousands of years. “This is all here because a deity (pick a deity, any deity) put it here.” The truth is probably very different and the answer might be much, much more than “a deity did it”. Humans are looking for those amazing answers. Elephants are looking for food and water. But if we’d never found the ability to question the deity hypothesis then we would be content to agree that “a deity did it” and be happy with that. For better or worse, our ability to reason, our rationality, has enabled us both to invent morality and to seek to know the universe.

 

[WhiteLion]

Atheism as the norm – humans would never have developed morality (paraphrased).

Let me deal with that claim first.

Morality – and I suppose we need to agree terminology – is about what’s right, what’s good, what’s just. That takes a social context. If I am a lone individual in nature then nothing is inherently right or wrong, it just is. Whatever is best for me is what I want. Since I’m a lone individual in nature I’m not accountable in any way to anyone else. I don’t need to think about morality. I only need to do what’s best for me.

But if I’m not a lone individual in nature and I am living with other humans then we need to work out a code of conduct between us. So, after trial and error and communication between individuals we work out a code of conduct.

Let me take one aspect.

Let’s say that the first rule is that we agree not to try and kill each other. Where does that come from? It comes from reason. It makes sense to have a code that says that the members of my in-group will not kill each other. Every individual benefits from that and the in-group itself is strengthened. We did that by reason, we didn’t get it from a deity.

We’re primitive, we have no means of healing illness or disease or injury behind the extremely rudimentary. We live at a subsistence level, we are nomadic hunter-gatherers. If someone gets sick and they can’t travel with us then will leave them to die. Is that amoral or is it moral? It’s a form of primitive utilitarianism. It has not been handed to us by a deity, we worked it out using reason

We’ve worked out that killing someone from our in-group is not beneficial to individual or group. We prohibit it. Let’s call it “wrong”.

But allowing a member of our in-group to die so that the group can improve its chances of survival – as a group and as an aggregate of individuals – is not prohibited because that custom ensures survival of the greater number. We can do it. Let’s call it “right”.

I’m wrong that morality is the product of reason (paraphrased).

Your reference to the behaviour of lions or black widow spiders is a reference to instinct. Instinct exists in all sentient beings. Instinct has no connection with morality. Animals without the brainpower of humans (as a species) don’t reason, they act out of instinct. Humans reason because of the large cerebral cortex.

You mentioned that there are several species with the ability to reason in manner that rivals humans. I’m not convinced by that claim and I ask you to produce evidence for it.

Humans are not an “atheist” species (paraphrased)

I know what I wrote because I thought about it before I wrote it.

I said there was a religious impulse in humans. That religious impulse is a product of that big cerebral cortex again. Do you think any other animal goes through the sort of existential angst of which humans are capable? Have you ever seen a primate other than homo sapiens wondering about its place in the universe?

That ability to wonder about the universe is a mental ability unique to humans. Religious belief is a hypothesis created by humans as a result of that unique mental ability. Other animals haven’t produced signs of having a religious impulse. Other animals don’t have the cerebral cortex that humans have. See the possible connection there?

“Why am I here?” “What/who created all this?” These are questions produced from reason. It must be because of a deity, is a hypothesis produced from reason.

The belief that there are deities who created everything is a hypothesis widely shared across time and space by humans. All humans have a large cerebral cortex. That large cerebral cortex allows thinking in abstract forms. We, unlike other species, have the power of wonder. We also have the power to provide answers to quell that wonder.

In Australian Aboriginal dreaming stories there are hypotheses for everything observable and some things which aren’t observable. That mountain range was created when a huge snake came down from the heavens and wriggled around in the mud and threw up huge tracts of earth which hardened and became mountains. We might treat that explanation as implausible because we have our own hypotheses about how those mountains were created (we derived those hypotheses from observation using the scientific method). But in both cases the hypotheses have been created because of the human ability to think.


Atheism as an aberration (paraphrased)

There have always been those who didn’t believe whatever the dominant culture told them was their religion. There has been an improvement. These days atheists aren’t executed for their non-belief.

For atheists there is no real meaning to life.

You’ve had a whine about atheists being arrogant or feeling superior to religious people. In that paragraph you revealed much about yourself. None of it was pleasant. You may defend that attitude on the basis that you are a reformed atheist. It doesn’t wash. You have treated atheists with the same contempt you allege they treat religious people. That breaches one of the oldest moral laws among humans which precedes Christianity’s stricture to “do unto others”. It’s called the ethic of reciprocity – the golden rule. See my reference to the in-group making a rule about not killing each other. I think the oldest religious reference I can find to this in Hinduism. It’s apparent that this possibly oldest of examples of human morality was derived from non-religious reason and absorbed into a whole series of religions. It supports my argument that morality is produced from reason.

Atheism is just a form of narcissism

Atheism is an absence of religion. Narcissism is a minor personality disorder. You’ll need to explain the connection.

You also claim that atheism, “is never a measure of intelligence and rational thinking…”. I’d agree with that. Atheism is not believing in a deity.

When I made the point about human progression I was making a generalised statement. You’ve had a post where you pretty much smeared atheists so in keeping with the ethic of reciprocity let me hand some back.

Humans have produced the hypothesis of religion in response to the sense of awe felt when they were able to think about themselves as something more than an animal functioning on instinct.

Religion grew out of superstition. There was thunder and lightning. That must have meant a superior being in the sky was angry (superstitious hypothesis), better stay out of the way of that lightning (rational response).

If the crops failed then the local gods must be cranky (superstitious hypothesis) so it was necessary to kill a few maidens to appease them so next year there would be crops (irrational response). But then science comes along and says, “hmmmm – you had an insect blight in your harvest, sacrificing maidens won’t do much to prevent that but you could develop an insecticide” (superstitious hypothesis dismantled, scientific hypothesis in its place which leads to a rational and effective response).

It’s called human progress. I’m not arguing that an individual atheist is superior to a religious person. Having spoken to a few Jesuits I would never, ever hold that position.
But I’m arguing that as humans understand more about the universe then religion will be seen to be an inhibiting factor in the quest for the truth and will, of necessity, wither away as we discover more and more truth about our universe.

In a way the deity hypothesis is far too simple. It’s a hypothesis that stretches back many thousands of years. “This is all here because a deity (pick a deity, any deity) put it here.” The truth is probably very different and the answer might be much, much more than “a deity did it”. Humans are looking for those amazing answers. Elephants are looking for food and water. But if we’d never found the ability to question the deity hypothesis then we would be content to agree that “a deity did it” and be happy with that. For better or worse, our ability to reason, our rationality, has enabled us both to invent morality and to seek to know the universe.

Look at all this contemplating and rationalizing away of a simple GOD given hardwired longing for the presences of the Holy Trinity and morality in the hearts of men...If there's nothing to Christianity(essence of morality), then why bother with trying to explain it away, wouldnt you think it would go away on its own??? See the love of GODs Son Jesus the Christ isnt a religion its a way of life, we(humanist) created religions much like the very one(Atheistic Evolutional Humanistic Control) you spent so many words in a failed attempt to defend. Jesus the Christ spent the majority of his ministry fighting these man made religions as well, lol why do think they crucified HIM???, you dont kill someone for nothing, you dont take down the Judeo Christian Ten Commandments for nothing, you dont take down Christian Crosses and replace them with Islamic Crescent Moon & Star for nothing, you dont take prayer and the pledge allegiance out of the public school system and replace it with evolution, sex education and abortion for NOTHING...lol as i stated earlier if there's is nothing to Christian morality then why bother even explaining yourself, why bother with trying to extinguish it...ALL RELIGIONS(including yours) ARE CARBON COPIES OF THE HARDWIRED LONGING IN THE SOULS OF MEN TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD JESUS THE CHRIST.......its something billions of deaths could never ever destroy not in this life nor in the life to come...
See, what your kind hate and have a horrible time with, is your demise after this life, for decieving so many millions of souls, it makes no difference if you dont believe, non belief wont exempt YOU sir from the White Throne Judgement nor any of your intellectualist reprieve...Sad thing to me is, you wont really even be judged for any of your sins(you already know what they are), youll be judged because YOU sir rejected Jesus the Christ and his plan for Salvation plain and simple...I can here you standing before GOD pryor to your eternal damnation "GOD your hypothises didnt quite cut it" lol. In eternal punishment, its much like a bird that circles a massive solid steel ball the size of earth, the birds wing brushes the steel ball billions of times taking the steel dust back to another planet, by the time the massive steel ball is brushed down and gone(billions of years) your tormented HELL is just begun...Im giving you sir the hard hot facts, im not going to hose down this warning to make you fill good and stroke your inter-most fears, no sir the time for soft panty waste preaching is OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AllieBaba]

Exactly.

Nothing has been around continuously as long as Christianity. And we keep growing.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

P.I., buddy...

My mistake.

I finally get it.

I thought you wanted to discuss tangible human rights, defined as our political system defines them for other nations to adhere to in order to get whatever political favors Uncle Sam is dishing out at the moment, not theoretical human rights that have as much teeth in human relations as a UN resolution.

My bad...

-Joe

No Joe, the only relevance that government sposored privilege has to actual human rights is their value in providing a contrast between the tangible value of human rights to the intangible value of government sponsored privilege. We can think of a privilege as that to which specific classes are temporarily entitled for the purposes of social engineering; to encourage or discourage certain behavior within the population; the specific classes ranging from everyone to just native Americans, or just women, or just blacks, or just hispanics, or just seniors, or just queers... or perhaps certain individuals from specific income strata... the ultimate 'special citizen' might be something like the poor old black native American hispanic lesbian, with a phsysical handicap. For a time such a person could be subsidized considerable government entities and programs, be allowed special consideration with regard to when she votes, where and when she can enter a government building, what taxes she may or may not be subject to and be provided special consideration as t owhom she may marry; rules distinct from those the rest of us would be subject to... then where changes in the political winds occur those temporary entitlements are out the window, her government checks cut, her marriage declared null and void, all former special considerations suspended, revised or summarily revoked.

Such can never be the case with unalienable human rights...

Of course the thing about human rights is that where the culture is unaware or fails to recognize their unalienable rights, then they will be quite unlikely to assert their right; their ignorance making it impossible for them to contest any popular whim; thus such a culture which fails to recognize that they're endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, will inevitably turn into something akin to France, The UK or even Australia; where the citizenry is unarmed and enjoys what can only be described as the 'color of rights...' a facade, a shadow of what rights actually resemble, but in practical reality are not rights at all... This in contrast to a culture which emphatically understands that they ARE endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights that stand above the authority of any human power. This culture will always remain free, despite the process requiring them to dispatch those that comprise a competing power who just as emphatically disagree.

I believe that we're within a generation of that unfortunate and unenviable necessity being thrust upon us again... it will be an unspeakable horror and from it will rise a free culture; who, just perhaps will not soon forget that with freedom come substiantial and unavoidable responsibilities... which can not be rejected by a free people.

 

[Diuretic]

Look at all this contemplating and rationalizing away of a simple GOD given hardwired longing for the presences of the Holy Trinity and morality in the hearts of men...If there's nothing to Christianity(essence of morality), then why bother with trying to explain it away, wouldnt you think it would go away on its own??? See the love of GODs Son Jesus the Christ isnt a religion its a way of life, we(humanist) created religions much like the very one(Atheistic Evolutional Humanistic Control) you spent so many words in a failed attempt to defend. Jesus the Christ spent the majority of his ministry fighting these man made religions as well, lol why do think they crucified HIM???, you dont kill someone for nothing, you dont take down the Judeo Christian Ten Commandments for nothing, you dont take down Christian Crosses and replace them with Islamic Crescent Moon & Star for nothing, you dont take prayer and the pledge allegiance out of the public school system and replace it with evolution, sex education and abortion for NOTHING...lol as i stated earlier if there's is nothing to Christian morality then why bother even explaining yourself, why bother with trying to extinguish it...ALL RELIGIONS(including yours) ARE CARBON COPIES OF THE HARDWIRED LONGING IN THE SOULS OF MEN TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD JESUS THE CHRIST.......its something billions of deaths could never ever destroy not in this life nor in the life to come...
See, what your kind hate and have a horrible time with, is your demise after this life, for decieving so many millions of souls, it makes no difference if you dont believe, non belief wont exempt YOU sir from the White Throne Judgement nor any of your intellectualist reprieve...Sad thing to me is, you wont really even be judged for any of your sins(you already know what they are), youll be judged because YOU sir rejected Jesus the Christ and his plan for Salvation plain and simple...I can here you standing before GOD pryor to your eternal damnation "GOD your hypothises didnt quite cut it" lol. In eternal punishment, its much like a bird that circles a massive solid steel ball the size of earth, the birds wing brushes the steel ball billions of times taking the steel dust back to another planet, by the time the massive steel ball is brushed down and gone(billions of years) your tormented HELL is just begun...Im giving you sir the hard hot facts, im not going to hose down this warning to make you fill good and stroke your inter-most fears, no sir the time for soft panty waste preaching is OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh.

 

[Inferno]

God doesn't exist and we all have a great deal of human rights. god is a fairy tale and does not have a lock on rights and human dignity. The right wing conservative religious would take away any human rights and replace them with the god nonsense. What a trip they are on. god id god because in this here book it says the god id god.

It also says in a book that Frodo destroyed the ring and the hobbits will be safe. Do the god folks believe that as well.

How about Chicken Little the sky is falling. Do they believe in those fairy tales as well?

 

[Diuretic]

God doesn't exist and we all have a great deal of human rights. god is a fairy tale and does not have a lock on rights and human dignity. The right wing conservative religious would take away any human rights and replace them with the god nonsense. What a trip they are on. god id god because in this here book it says the god id god.

It also says in a book that Frodo destroyed the ring and the hobbits will be safe. Do the god folks believe that as well.

How about Chicken Little the sky is falling. Do they believe in those fairy tales as well?

You sure?

That fire and brimstone by White Lion had me worried there for a minute.

NOT

 

[Inferno]

I am so terrified that god will get me that I am thinking of looking for a man.

Oh shit nevermind I don't do men. Hear that god I am a DYKE. Come get me. I will have Frodo snuff you out.

Fire and brimstone the god of doom and gloom. He says do this and that or I will burn you forever. Some loving god. BS pure and simple.

 

[WhiteLion]

You sure?

That fire and brimstone by White Lion had me worried there for a minute.

NOT

Diuretic no one will stand before GOD on JUDGEMENT on your behalf but "YOU" friend, not me, not your neighbors, your folks, not anyone but"YOU", and surely not Inferno, they are liers and the truth is not in them. Just like the days of Moses that Paul preached about in the book of Timothy, Jannes and Jambres withstanding Moses, these 2 where pharoahs personal satanic sorcerers who thought they could match the power of GOD with their rods, but when their rods turned into snakes MOSES rod eat theirs gooble gooble gooble lol. Diuretic JESUS the Christ slain meek as a lamb will return as a LION, the LIon of the tribe of JUDAH. His fearce roar we scare the demons and their leader satan pissless, they will screem for the mountians to fall upon them, but the Bible says the mountians will FLEE!!! This ant no fairy tail nor video game son, what we're talking about here is your eternal soul. This carcass we call a body is just a house for your soul, when it dies did you know scientifically speaking that 3/4ths of an oz leaves your body(not thru any orifice nor fluids) 3/4ths oz of you leave and go somewhere you tell me?? Physical Evidence of the Soul
Ever see the movie the Chronicles of Narnia by SC Lewis Irish Christian, if you watch all the series, notice the LION and how he gave his life so the other could be free, this was just a modern day fable or story of the love of Jesus the Christ. Here are links to some of the trailers
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ9t3Xs8Sgc&feature=related]YouTube - the chronicles of narnia the lion the witch and the wardrobe[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqzYukVDqy4]YouTube - Prince Caspian - Official Trailer[/ame]
Like i said in the earlier post HELL is real, the Bible talks about Christ when he approached the crazed demon possessed man in the cemetary, immediately when they(demons) saw JESUS coming they begged him so not to torment them before the time, they begged JESUS to cast them into the swine(PIGS UNCLEANLYNESS) so JESUS granted the demons possession of the swine, Diuretic the pigs ran down the bank and into the water and drown themselves. The Bible also says the demons believe and tremble...I just hate seeing someone as bright as yourself tossed to such lies. Ponchus Pilot Governor told the apostle Paul, i was almost persuaded, Pilot knew Paul was right but because of corruption and power had such a hold on Pilot he reject what he new to be truth. Sir Issac Newton was a devoted Christian and spent the last 20 years of his life studying the time of the coming of Christ, his mathematical prediction puts Christ coming in the year 2060. Then again, the Bible says no man knowth the hour nor the day of the return of Christ his time will be like a theif in the night. Theres still time to decide for JESUS THE CHRIST anyone i dont care who they are or what they think theyve done, can except JESUS THE CHRIST into their lives and live with him for eternity we were created for the day of his return weather or not we except or reject is entirely up to us................Time hasnt run out, time is gone, the coming of Christ and the rebuilding of Herods temple in Jerusalem is the only signs that i know of, that havent been fulfilled, and will most likely happen on the Jewish celebration Feast of Tabernacles...which one time and date i do not know however i wouldnt gamble on it.........

 

[del]

Diuretic no one will stand before GOD on JUDGEMENT on your behalf but "YOU" friend, not me, not your neighbors, your folks, not anyone but"YOU", and surely not Inferno, they are liers and the truth is not in them. Just like the days of Moses that Paul preached about in the book of Timothy, Jannes and Jambres withstanding Moses, these 2 where pharoahs personal satanic sorcerers who thought they could match the power of GOD with their rods, but when their rods turned into snakes MOSES rod eat theirs gooble gooble gooble lol. Diuretic JESUS the Christ slain meek as a lamb will return as a LION, the LIon of the tribe of JUDAH. His fearce roar we scare the demons and their leader satan pissless, they will screem for the mountians to fall upon them, but the Bible says the mountians will FLEE!!! This ant no fairy tail nor video game son, what we're talking about here is your eternal soul. This carcass we call a body is just a house for your soul, when it dies did you know scientifically speaking that 3/4ths of an oz leaves your body(not thru any orifice nor fluids) 3/4ths oz of you leave and go somewhere you tell me?? Physical Evidence of the Soul
Ever see the movie the Chronicles of Narnia by SC Lewis Irish Christian, if you watch all the series, notice the LION and how he gave his life so the other could be free, this was just a modern day fable or story of the love of Jesus the Christ. Here are links to some of the trailers
YouTube - the chronicles of narnia the lion the witch and the wardrobe
YouTube - Prince Caspian - Official Trailer
Like i said in the earlier post HELL is real, the Bible talks about Christ when he approached the crazed demon possessed man in the cemetary, immediately when they(demons) saw JESUS coming they begged him so not to torment them before the time, they begged JESUS to cast them into the swine(PIGS UNCLEANLYNESS) so JESUS granted the demons possession of the swine, Diuretic the pigs ran down the bank and into the water and drown themselves. The Bible also says the demons believe and tremble...I just hate seeing someone as bright as yourself tossed to such lies. Ponchus Pilot Governor told the apostle Paul, i was almost persuaded, Pilot knew Paul was right but because of corruption and power had such a hold on Pilot he reject what he new to be truth. Sir Issac Newton was a devoted Christian and spent the last 20 years of his life studying the time of the coming of Christ, his mathematical prediction puts Christ coming in the year 2060. Then again, the Bible says no man knowth the hour nor the day of the return of Christ his time will be like a theif in the night. Theres still time to decide for JESUS THE CHRIST anyone i dont care who they are or what they think theyve done, can except JESUS THE CHRIST into their lives and live with him for eternity we were created for the day of his return weather or not we except or reject is entirely up to us................Time hasnt run out, time is gone, the coming of Christ and the rebuilding of Herods temple in Jerusalem is the only signs that i know of, that havent been fulfilled, and will most likely happen on the Jewish celebration Feast of Tabernacles...which one time and date i do not know however i wouldnt gamble on it.........

Oh.

 

[MichaelCollins]

Exactly.

Nothing has been around continuously as long as Christianity. And we keep growing.

Budhism? Hinduism? Judaism?

All have been in existence alot longer than Christianity?

Why anyone believes in these fairytales... the mind boggles.

Its a weakness of the mind i suppose.


PS .. you may keep growing in third world states and in third world african nations... .but christianity will always die with education.

 

[MichaelCollins]

God doesn't exist and we all have a great deal of human rights. god is a fairy tale and does not have a lock on rights and human dignity. The right wing conservative religious would take away any human rights and replace them with the god nonsense. What a trip they are on. god id god because in this here book it says the god id god.

It also says in a book that Frodo destroyed the ring and the hobbits will be safe. Do the god folks believe that as well.

How about Chicken Little the sky is falling. Do they believe in those fairy tales as well?

IS Harry Potter in the bible? I always get those two books confused!

Harry Potter and the Jesus character... which is which?

 

[Dr Grump]

Exactly.

Nothing has been around continuously as long as Christianity. And we keep growing.

Er, there's this little religion that started out in the ME - in fact they wrote your first book...

 

[Dr Grump]

God, not only is White Lion a racist neocon whackjob, I have to put the words "Bible Thumper" in there as well...:O(

 

[MichaelCollins]

God, not only is White Lion a racist neocon whackjob, I have to put the words "Bible Thumper" in there as well...:O(

Isnt it funny..that the most hatefilled, nasty people in the US.... all seem to be bible bashers?

Coincidence?

Also ... they couldnt be further from the truth of the original christian story and the acts of Jesus.

I just cant match the two together.. why are such nasty, aggressive, prejudiced people... .advocating a philosophy of love and understanding?

 

[Diuretic]

Diuretic no one will stand before GOD on JUDGEMENT on your behalf but "YOU" friend, not me, not your neighbors, your folks, not anyone but"YOU", and surely not Inferno, they are liers and the truth is not in them. Just like the days of Moses that Paul preached about in the book of Timothy, Jannes and Jambres withstanding Moses, these 2 where pharoahs personal satanic sorcerers who thought they could match the power of GOD with their rods, but when their rods turned into snakes MOSES rod eat theirs gooble gooble gooble lol. Diuretic JESUS the Christ slain meek as a lamb will return as a LION, the LIon of the tribe of JUDAH. His fearce roar we scare the demons and their leader satan pissless, they will screem for the mountians to fall upon them, but the Bible says the mountians will FLEE!!! This ant no fairy tail nor video game son, what we're talking about here is your eternal soul. This carcass we call a body is just a house for your soul, when it dies did you know scientifically speaking that 3/4ths of an oz leaves your body(not thru any orifice nor fluids) 3/4ths oz of you leave and go somewhere you tell me?? Physical Evidence of the Soul
Ever see the movie the Chronicles of Narnia by SC Lewis Irish Christian, if you watch all the series, notice the LION and how he gave his life so the other could be free, this was just a modern day fable or story of the love of Jesus the Christ. Here are links to some of the trailers
YouTube - the chronicles of narnia the lion the witch and the wardrobe
YouTube - Prince Caspian - Official Trailer
Like i said in the earlier post HELL is real, the Bible talks about Christ when he approached the crazed demon possessed man in the cemetary, immediately when they(demons) saw JESUS coming they begged him so not to torment them before the time, they begged JESUS to cast them into the swine(PIGS UNCLEANLYNESS) so JESUS granted the demons possession of the swine, Diuretic the pigs ran down the bank and into the water and drown themselves. The Bible also says the demons believe and tremble...I just hate seeing someone as bright as yourself tossed to such lies. Ponchus Pilot Governor told the apostle Paul, i was almost persuaded, Pilot knew Paul was right but because of corruption and power had such a hold on Pilot he reject what he new to be truth. Sir Issac Newton was a devoted Christian and spent the last 20 years of his life studying the time of the coming of Christ, his mathematical prediction puts Christ coming in the year 2060. Then again, the Bible says no man knowth the hour nor the day of the return of Christ his time will be like a theif in the night. Theres still time to decide for JESUS THE CHRIST anyone i dont care who they are or what they think theyve done, can except JESUS THE CHRIST into their lives and live with him for eternity we were created for the day of his return weather or not we except or reject is entirely up to us................Time hasnt run out, time is gone, the coming of Christ and the rebuilding of Herods temple in Jerusalem is the only signs that i know of, that havent been fulfilled, and will most likely happen on the Jewish celebration Feast of Tabernacles...which one time and date i do not know however i wouldnt gamble on it.........

If you see me in the "other" group will you give me a wave?

Yeshua was a good bloke. He had some very humanitarian ideas. He copped a pretty rough deal from the Romans and the Sanhedrin though. I'm glad his memory and his teachings have spread around the world. As for Pilate, I wouldn't piss on the bastard if he were on fire.