In the Absence of God; Human rights cannot exist.

[Diuretic]

Oh.

- sadly cannot rep!

 

[jillian]

Er, there's this little religion that started out in the ME - in fact they wrote your first book...

Yeah, a bit shy of 6,000 years old...

Retarded, isn't she?

 

[Abelian Sea]

This ant no fairy tail....

I won't contest that, but surely you can appreciate that from an outside perspective it sounds like one.

It is true, though, that believing in a Final Judgement does lend a very satisfying logical cohesion to acting morally. The whole story taken together makes living morally sensible on both a thoughtful, abstract level (striving to fulfill our God-given potential and show respect for the gift of life) and a basic, animal level (oh shit I don't want to go to Hell). This without having to sift through layers of chageable (and avoidable) social contracts based on (over)generalized pragmatism. Love and fear both pushing in the same direction. It's brilliant.

Plato made much the same point some 2,500 years ago, where in the last book of the Republic a discussion of justice finally brings him to describe an example of an ideal society. In that society, people are given to believe that there are actually two different places they can end up when they die, one lower and worse and the other higher and better. Which one you go to depends on how just you were in life, as judged by beings who can not be decieved and who know all that you have done. This belief was to be promulgated to counter the not uncommon human notion that if you cheat and get away with it, you've won. (Frodo's involved, too; somewhere in Plato's writings he refers to "that old story" of the ring that made its wearer invisible; it corrupted men, not because of some malign external Sauron but simply because it let them get away with shit - his point being that lack of accountability leads to decay of morality).

 

[frazzledgear]

Atheism as the norm – humans would never have developed morality (paraphrased).

Let me deal with that claim first.

Morality – and I suppose we need to agree terminology – is about what’s right, what’s good, what’s just. That takes a social context. If I am a lone individual in nature then nothing is inherently right or wrong, it just is. Whatever is best for me is what I want. Since I’m a lone individual in nature I’m not accountable in any way to anyone else. I don’t need to think about morality. I only need to do what’s best for me.

But if I’m not a lone individual in nature and I am living with other humans then we need to work out a code of conduct between us. So, after trial and error and communication between individuals we work out a code of conduct.

Let me take one aspect.

Let’s say that the first rule is that we agree not to try and kill each other. Where does that come from? It comes from reason. It makes sense to have a code that says that the members of my in-group will not kill each other. Every individual benefits from that and the in-group itself is strengthened. We did that by reason, we didn’t get it from a deity.

I couldn't get through your entire post and had to stop here. You confuse a group of individuals realizing it is harmful to the group to kill off contributing members of the group -with the belief it is an act of such abomination to kill off any member of the species, that the individual who does it should suffer the most severe consequences.

MANY species -even some insects - live in group/social settings where they do not typically kill off productive members of the group because it harms the group itself to do so. But that isn't the same thing as any of these species believing that killing another of its own species requires the harshest punishment for offenders. That members of the group in any species don't wantonly kill one of their own group members doesn't endow it with any sense of morality at all. It is a survival strategy only.

That humans living in group settings decided it was harmful to the group to kill off productive members of the group in no way implies any morality behind that decision -but for the identical reason other group living species don't either. It increases the odds of survival for individuals and helps propagate the species itself.

But that played no role when humans came to believe killing another member of the species itself was an act of such abomination that the killer must suffer the most severe consequences as a result. Only if the life of every individidual was believed to have an inherent value of its own, regardless of their ability to contribute to the group - could that belief and therefore morality even possibly develop. Reason alone could NEVER produce such a belief, because REASON would have logically said that only productive life has real value and the more productive the individual, the greater value his life to the group. Which would also mean that the life of an individual who contributed nothing to the group had no real value at all.

Only with the development of religious belief, a higher authority who cared what humans did and did not do -was it possible for a belief that life itself is inherently valuable to even emerge. As a result of THAT development, humans ALONE do not live by the code of survival of the fittest. While every other species in the wild does -whether they live in social groups or not. (I don't count domesticated animals who have had their natural instincts artificially bred out of them by man and are now dependent upon man for their survival.)

Since every other species lives in accordance with the code of survival of the fittest AND all are atheistic, even those species that are near rivals for humans when it comes to the ability to reason -you are hard pressed to find the logic in ever assuming that "reason" alone would EVER have made humans believe that the life of every individual was inherently valuable and that value was unrelated to the individual's ability to contribute to the group. That reason alone would make them realize killing off contributing members of the group is a bad idea, yes. That the life of even a non-contributing member was of equal value to the lives of those contributing the most, as well as just as valuable as the life of an individual not even in their group -never.

REASON would quickly recognize a behavior that results in the healthiest, most productive members diverting SCARCE RESOURCES to prolong the life of members who are not productive and never will be -as a harmful behavior for the entire group. When that happens, it lessens the odds of survival of the entire group by such UNREASONABLE behavior. REASON alone would conclude this is a very bad idea and damaging both to the group as well as to the entire species.

That humans came to believe that the life of every individual had such inherent value that someone who chose to kill another should suffer the most severe consequences is provably NOT one that can emerge from atheism. Atheism is a mindset that says not only is there no higher authority than one's own species and the here and now - but that existence itself carries no greater meaning beyond surviving. Reason without religious beliefs in a higher authority who cares what human beings do and don't do - can ONLY naturally conclude the lives of those who most contribute to the ability of the group to survive have far greater value at all times -over the lives of those who cannot. And THAT is how reason alone will always result in a code of survival of the fittest and never one of all individuals possessing a life of inherent and equal value.

 

[Diuretic]

I couldn't get through your entire post and had to stop here. .........

You should have kept reading.

So, religion gaves us morality? Is that right? And that religious morality made us see each other as worthy simply because we were humans? Do I have it right? I'm a bit wary of re-interpreting someone else's posts.

Religion gave us human sacrifice. Some religions have required humans to sacrifice other humans to appease the deities. The reasoning was that if things were going wrong then it meant the deity/deities were cranky and had to be appeased with a sacrifice. The better the quality of the sacrificial object then the more appeasement value. Rather than slaughter and sacrifice livestock if they slaughtered and sacrificed a human child, a precious human child, that would be a real sacrifice.

You definitely should have read on Frazz.

 

[WhiteLion]

Budhism? Hinduism? Judaism?

All have been in existence alot longer than Christianity?

Why anyone believes in these fairytales... the mind boggles.

Its a weakness of the mind i suppose.


PS .. you may keep growing in third world states and in third world african nations... .but christianity will always die with education.

Without Christianity education has no substance, undone, unfinished and otherwise a DEADEND ROAD. Judeo Christianity has its roots in the Hebrew Torah which is timeless, your fairytales and(Budhism?(Fat stone idol ant moved in thousands of years China excepted our economy thru NAFTA) Hinduism?(starve them selves to death because they think the cow is their uncle tony??) and Islam(they kill you quikly if you dont worship like them) are "ALL" carbon copies of the real thing...America was based on the truths of Christianity and because of it America prospered in only 200 years what it took antichrist nations thousand of years to achieve...(but America has thrown down GOD in the last 48 years and we are becoming the 3rd world nations that you so pridefully speak of). Bet you dont have a problem with any other religion but Christianity why, why is it that Christians are dispised among all religions??? You know why, because Jesus the Christ said that they hated me, and if you keep my commandments they will also hate you...Just because you cant see GOD(GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) doesnt mean he isnt there, you cant see the wind blowing, but you can fell it? The fool said in his heart there is no GOD...........

Atheist built the Titanic, Christains built the Ark, and wow here we are today lol

 

[WhiteLion]

I won't contest that, but surely you can appreciate that from an outside perspective it sounds like one.

It is true, though, that believing in a Final Judgement does lend a very satisfying logical cohesion to acting morally. The whole story taken together makes living morally sensible on both a thoughtful, abstract level (striving to fulfill our God-given potential and show respect for the gift of life) and a basic, animal level (oh shit I don't want to go to Hell). This without having to sift through layers of chageable (and avoidable) social contracts based on (over)generalized pragmatism. Love and fear both pushing in the same direction. It's brilliant.

Plato made much the same point some 2,500 years ago, where in the last book of the Republic a discussion of justice finally brings him to describe an example of an ideal society. In that society, people are given to believe that there are actually two different places they can end up when they die, one lower and worse and the other higher and better. Which one you go to depends on how just you were in life, as judged by beings who can not be decieved and who know all that you have done. This belief was to be promulgated to counter the not uncommon human notion that if you cheat and get away with it, you've won. (Frodo's involved, too; somewhere in Plato's writings he refers to "that old story" of the ring that made its wearer invisible; it corrupted men, not because of some malign external Sauron but simply because it let them get away with shit - his point being that lack of accountability leads to decay of morality).

Sweet Jesus that all sounds like psychobabel

 

[Diuretic]

Without Christianity education has no substance, undone, unfinished and otherwise a DEADEND ROAD. Judeo Christianity has its roots in the Hebrew Torah which is timeless, your fairytales and(Budhism?(Fat stone idol ant moved in thousands of years China excepted our economy thru NAFTA) Hinduism?(starve them selves to death because they think the cow is their uncle tony??) and Islam(they kill you quikly if you dont worship like them) are "ALL" carbon copies of the real thing...America was based on the truths of Christianity and because of it America prospered in only 200 years what it took antichrist nations thousand of years to achieve...(but America has thrown down GOD in the last 48 years and we are becoming the 3rd world nations that you so pridefully speak of). Bet you dont have a problem with any other religion but Christianity why, why is it that Christians are dispised among all religions??? You know why, because Jesus the Christ said that they hated me, and if you keep my commandments they will also hate you...Just because you cant see GOD(GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) doesnt mean he isnt there, you cant see the wind blowing, but you can fell it? The fool said in his heart there is no GOD...........

Atheist built the Titanic, Christains built the Ark, and wow here we are today lol

This type of trash gives Christianity a bad name. Stop it.

 

[Diuretic]

Except what you are Grumpy, your an hateful ANTI-CHRIST, what you say makes no difference to me, nor will it make any difference when the demons are gang banging you in hell for eternity, (hell =where the worm dieth not and fire is not quenched) you have a vex corrupt soul and it cannot be fixed(venomous iniquity). Unlike the truely curious ones on this forum YOU are a hinderence to GODs work and will be judged accordenly in WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT to come. GODs Holy Word says the the angels will be judged by the Christians and so shall you as well. The fool said in his heart there is no GOD..
Im only human and act as such, however GOD is not, when you stand before GOD(JESUS THE CHRIST) no army or black ops group will come to your rescue, you will not be judged of your sins as ive said before(you already know what your sins are) you will be judged because you rejected the love of JESUS THE CHRIST and his plan of salvation plain and simple.........reply if you like, in any cruel manner, but i'll just come right back and pound you into dust with the ten mega ton Bible of truth....Whack that !!!!!!!

Spewing hatred and then JESUS THE CHRIST like some sort of evangelistic nutter is confusing the hell out of me. Are you feeling okay?

 

[frazzledgear]

You should have kept reading.

So, religion gaves us morality? Is that right? And that religious morality made us see each other as worthy simply because we were humans? Do I have it right? I'm a bit wary of re-interpreting someone else's posts.

Religion gave us human sacrifice. Some religions have required humans to sacrifice other humans to appease the deities. The reasoning was that if things were going wrong then it meant the deity/deities were cranky and had to be appeased with a sacrifice. The better the quality of the sacrificial object then the more appeasement value. Rather than slaughter and sacrifice livestock if they slaughtered and sacrificed a human child, a precious human child, that would be a real sacrifice.

You definitely should have read on Frazz.

Humans are hardwired with a need to worship something higher than himself -and they are in order to make it easier for man to find God. The fact man repeatedly failed to find God also means what and how he ended up worshipping were also flawed -sometimes horribly so. So yes, during the course of that search for God, it did result in human sacrifice and persecution. But aside from it resulting in some of the most beautiful art and music to have ever existed - it also resulted in the development of morality which hinges on the belief that a higher authority exists who cares deeply what humans do and don't do. If God cares about MY life and MY existence -then it is at THAT point reason would actually play a role. And it would with the extrapolation to others -that God must also care about the life of every other human as well and regardless of age, contributions to society or productivity. Without religious belief, reason alone could not and would never have resulted in the development of morality.

Why do you think atheists are among those fighting the hardest for things like abortion, euthanasia and embryonic stem cell research? It is because atheists already find THAT human life to have no real value and insist those human lives should be considered "disposable", legal to kill or as some "thing" whose only purpose for existence is to be cannibalized for the benefit of other, older human lives. And THAT means for atheists, the value of human life hinges on something entirely different from the fact an individual human life merely exists. Since atheists were raised in a society that had already developed morality, their mentality isn't fully placing value on human life based on whether that human life is productive or contributes to society or not but it is headed that way. For atheists, the value they place on human life is much, much closer to a survival of the fittest mentality. As it would have been all along in an atheistic species -and it is a mentality they want to push on the rest of society as being somehow "superior".

By definition an atheist would NOT believe that all human life is inherently valuable, and would believe that it is quite acceptable for some of that human life be killed off as "unwanted" or "undesirable" or to be cannibalized for the use of other, older human life. Why do you think it is invariably the religious, who believe that ALL human life is inherently valuable -who fight the very hardest against these acts? And why it is atheists are the biggest proponents of them?

So please -enough with this pretense and phony argument. Even the belief system of today's atheists, who clearly do NOT place value on all human life and measure the value of a human life by something totally different -should already have proven that your initial claim that it is reason alone responsible for the development of morality -is pure bullshit.

 

[Diuretic]

Humans are hardwired with a need to worship something higher than himself -and they are in order to make it easier for man to find God. The fact man repeatedly failed to find God also means what and how he ended up worshipping were also flawed -sometimes horribly so. So yes, during the course of that search for God, it did result in human sacrifice and persecution. But aside from it resulting in some of the most beautiful art and music to have ever existed - it also resulted in the development of morality which hinges on the belief that a higher authority exists who cares deeply what humans do and don't do. If God cares about MY life and MY existence -then it is at THAT point reason would actually play a role. And it would with the extrapolation to others -that God must also care about the life of every other human as well and regardless of age, contributions to society or productivity. Without religious belief, reason alone could not and would never have resulted in the development of morality.

Why do you think atheists are among those fighting the hardest for things like abortion, euthanasia and embryonic stem cell research? It is because atheists already find THAT human life to have no real value and insist those human lives should be considered "disposable", legal to kill or as some "thing" whose only purpose for existence is to be cannibalized for the benefit of other, older human lives. And THAT means for atheists, the value of human life hinges on something entirely different from the fact an individual human life merely exists. Since atheists were raised in a society that had already developed morality, their mentality isn't fully placing value on human life based on whether that human life is productive or contributes to society or not but it is headed that way. For atheists, the value they place on human life is much, much closer to a survival of the fittest mentality. As it would have been all along in an atheistic species -and it is a mentality they want to push on the rest of society as being somehow "superior".

By definition an atheist would NOT believe that all human life is inherently valuable, and would believe that it is quite acceptable for some of that human life be killed off as "unwanted" or "undesirable" or to be cannibalized for the use of other, older human life. Why do you think it is invariably the religious, who believe that ALL human life is inherently valuable -who fight the very hardest against these acts? And why it is atheists are the biggest proponents of them?

So please -enough with this pretense and phony argument. Even the belief system of today's atheists, who clearly do NOT place value on all human life and measure the value of a human life by something totally different -should already have proven that your initial claim that it is reason alone responsible for the development of morality -is pure bullshit.

Firstly, if you can't address a argument then withdraw and don't deflect and distort. I can't help being able to address your jello-like claims rationally and fearlessly and with precise language which sticks to the point rather than rambling on with statements of great circularity. So, if you're feeling a bit frustrated leave the thread. But don't give me directions.

Your claim about us being hardwired with a need to worship is pure speculation on your part. I want to see any evidence that supports your claim.

You asked:

Why do you think atheists are among those fighting the hardest for things like abortion, euthanasia and embryonic stem cell research?

Because atheists are not swayed by superstition they can argue from a purely rational point of view on difficult moral issues.

Religion is a form of sophisticated superstition. Religious belief in someone always trumps rational thinking. That has been demonstrated in this thread.

 

[WhiteLion]

Spewing hatred and then JESUS THE CHRIST like some sort of evangelistic nutter is confusing the hell out of me. Are you feeling okay?

Youve replied?? if it didnt mean something...then why bother.
Atheist dont believe in GOD or a life hereafter therefore having no viable conscious, how then can you say your moral in any sense of the word. Fact of the matter your in the same boat as Grump both sailing down a river to eternal torment...You dont get it, it doesnt matter if you dont believe
lol you will stand before GOD and be accountible for ever idle word you speak. I wouldnt expect you to understand, nor comprehend or to feel ok. However i will be on this religious forum from here on out to help fend off decievers such as you and Grump and anyothers for that matter so bring it on...Oh and i dont give a flyin rats turd what your version of it is...

 

[mattskramer]

A lot of people will tell you, with a great deal of certainty that God does not exist. Now I've noticed that it is VERY common for these SAME people to also believe that they have ALL MANNER of human rights... and I've always been curious as to just what these people believe that these human rights that they lay claim to rest upon? By that I mean where do these rights come from?

Now some will tell you that human rights are a function of the Social Contract... some will quickly explain that human rights come from the government and so it goes...

Below, I am going to lay out a scenario and I'd like the Atheists or the Secular-humanists to chime in as to how they would react to the below scenario and on what basis would they take that action.

You either fight or surrender. What would you have done if you had been declared a witch in Salem Massachusetts years ago? What if you were a homosexual in a Muslim nation and the theocracy within that nation concluded that, according to God, homosexuals are to be executed? Your little story proves noting. Rights are an invention of human beings.

 

[Diuretic]

Youve replied?? if it didnt mean something...then why bother.
Atheist dont believe in GOD or a life hereafter therefore having no viable conscious, how then can you say your moral in any sense of the word. Fact of the matter your in the same boat as Grump both sailing down a river to eternal torment...You dont get it, it doesnt matter if you dont believe
lol you will stand before GOD and be accountible for ever idle word you speak. I wouldnt expect you to understand, nor comprehend or to feel ok. However i will be on this religious forum from here on out to help fend off decievers such as you and Grump and anyothers for that matter so bring it on...Oh and i dont give a flyin rats turd what your version of it is...

I don't believe in a diety. I don't believe in an afterlife. Okay, those are givens. But then you ask me how I can say I'm “moral”. Here's a clue – it's not a pre-requisite to being a moral person to have religious beliefs. Understand? You also have to understand that being a religious person doesn't mean someone is automatically moral. Got that?

Now, please proceed. I need to know how morality is only able to be known by those who are religious. Enlghten me.

 

[WhiteLion]

I don't believe in a diety. I don't believe in an afterlife. Okay, those are givens. But then you ask me how I can say I'm “moral”. Here's a clue – it's not a pre-requisite to being a moral person to have religious beliefs. Understand? You also have to understand that being a religious person doesn't mean someone is automatically moral. Got that?

Now, please proceed. I need to know how morality is only able to be known by those who are religious. Enlghten me.

Diuretic lets go backward for a bit, where do you think EVIL comes from??? this may shatter the integrity of your illusion...and once i explain it, you will still not fully understand.

 

[mattskramer]

Diuretic lets go backward for a bit, where do you think EVIL comes from??? this may shatter the integrity of your illusion...and once i explain it, you will still not fully understand.

Evil is simply the doing of harm or damage to an object or human being. The degre to whcih actions are evil are subject to subjective opinion.

 

[Diuretic]

Diuretic lets go backward for a bit, where do you think EVIL comes from??? this may shatter the integrity of your illusion...and once i explain it, you will still not fully understand.

You explain it and then I won't fully understand?

In that case - why bother?

But I can explain the concept of "evil" to you. I think you might understand it after I do so.

What would you like to do then?

 

[WhiteLion]

I don't believe in a diety. I don't believe in an afterlife. Okay, those are givens. But then you ask me how I can say I'm “moral”. Here's a clue – it's not a pre-requisite to being a moral person to have religious beliefs. Understand? You also have to understand that being a religious person doesn't mean someone is automatically moral. Got that?

Now, please proceed. I need to know how morality is only able to be known by those who are religious. Enlghten me.

Dude your psychobabel lol, I told you, only to those sold out to JESUS THE CHRIST, JESUS is not a religion you turkey, its a way of life, its a decision to true accountibility inwhich you are and will always be blinded...hell man anyone can be good, i got a dog out back he acts pretty good lol

 

[WhiteLion]

You explain it and then I won't fully understand?

In that case - why bother?

But I can explain the concept of "evil" to you. I think you might understand it after I do so.

What would you like to do then?

do you want to know where evil comes from and why evil exist???

 

[WhiteLion]

You explain it and then I won't fully understand?

In that case - why bother?

But I can explain the concept of "evil" to you. I think you might understand it after I do so.

What would you like to do then?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So now that we've establish the origins of evil. We will examine why indeed GOD created EVIL. See GOD created all things with the desire of freewill to serve him or reject him, mankind and the angels alike. Satan(meaning blackness or darkness) or the Devil as some call him was also created by GOD before the fall of 1/3 of the angelic host of heaven, Satans GOD given name was Lucifer. Lucifer was one of 2 archangels or the top generals, the other being of course Michael. Lucifer was the top dog, music was his main gig,(the BIBLE says Lucifers pipes sounded beautiful) GOD also called Lucifer the morning star the most beautiful of all GODs creations. However Lucifer like all the other angels was created with freewill to love and serve our creator or reject. Lucifer saw his reflection one day and became prideful, arrogant and envious, soon all these desires over came him to the point that he desired the THRONE OF GOD. So Lucifer had a secret town meeting of revolt with all the angelic host of the heavens to over throw GOD, and revolt they did. The Bible says that Michael and his army fought Lucifer and the 1/3rd fallin, and did cast them out of the heavens...The prophet John of Patmos believe to have written most of the book of Revelation, says that he saw Satan the evil one fall like lightning from the heavens woe be unto the inhabitants of the earth...Lucifers countenance changed to darkess thus given over to the name SATAN(it was his choice). Even after all Satan had done GOD still saw a use for him, GOd called him the destroyer.
GOD used SATAN to test Joel, one day Satan going to and fro thru the earth was bored, so Satan decides to pay GOD a visit and ask GOd do you not have one that i cant break or decieve, for i have decieved most all in the land. GOd eccentially says yes have you considered my servent Joel?? you can test him all you like, but you cannot take his life. So Satan did, he took eveything Joel had, Joel was rich and had a very large family. Satan took everything Joel had and struck Joel with diseases that dogs didnt even want to lick on, and killed all of Joels family, Joels wife even told him why dont you just curse GOD and die!! but Joel said no i will not forsake GOD tho he slay me i will still trust him. In the end GOD told Satan to back off, and all was totally restored to Joel everything... In another instance Jesus(GOD come in the flesh) told Peter(the head apostle) that Satan wants to sift him like wheat, in other words to see if Peter really was the servent he claimed he was, or put him thru the ringer like he did with Joel 1500 years pryor. In short Evil was created by GOD to seperate the rams from the goats, or the wheat from the chaff, those that except Jesus the Christ into their life, are marked by the blood of the lamb, those that arent are marked by the numbers of the beast. Its entirely up to us weather we decide to hold fast under all circumstanes to the love of Christ or give in to evil, plain and simple, hope this helps you in your vain quest of refuting morality as a GOD thing.......ALL THINGS ARE CREATED BY GOD INCLUDING EVIL.......................