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That about sums it up perfectly.So the innocent pays the price and those initiating and perpetuating the incivility can high five each other and celebrate their victory.
That about sums it up perfectly.So the innocent pays the price and those initiating and perpetuating the incivility can high five each other and celebrate their victory.
The only way to stop bullies is to lock them up where they get the same treatment from other bullies....or lock them out where people can live in peace. Or, like that guy did that sun devil spoke about...stop them from breathing (which then means the innocent ones STILL have to pay for the crime).
You were talking about a FB and now have expended it that is a good thing.Fred needs to make a decision, if he does not like what is being said either he ignores it or leaves IMO. The TOS agreement should also help him and everyone else understand what is acceptable and what is not. People have said mean things about me, who cares I know it is not true, and if it is true then I have an evil laugh because I probably had fun at being an ass.Civility no, criminal behavior under certain circumstances yes.Adding detrimental puts a different spin now I would hope that a ruling council would step in and make that behavior taboo, if the society(parents, clergy, elders)cannot step in and provide a remedy to the situation.
So we can say we now have your vote in favor of federal laws mandating civility?
But when it comes to incivility, what constitutes criminal behavior? Certainly I think slander and libel laws should apply when a person's reputation is falsely compromised or such as that, but we already have laws on the book addressing that. Certainly threats of violence or other harmful actions constitute assault and there are already laws on the books about that.
But--and this is for the purpose of illustration only and is not to be taken literally by anybody--if I call "Fred" an ignorant numbnut, what damages can be claimed that could be addressed by law? If I get on Facebook and tell embarassing stories about him that happen to be true, or make uncomplimentary comments about his appearance or mannerisms or whatever, what damages can he claim? The insult a minute expected from certain members of a message board may spoil somebody's enjoyment of the board but are great fun for others. What laws would address that?
I think you're missing the point. If the only recourse we have to incivility in our lives is to remove ourselves from it, that is all well and good if we have someplace to go. In the case of persons targeted for incivility, however, they are forced to give up something they value--their job, their school, their job, use of social media, participation in public activities, participation on a message board--or the incivility continues. So the innocent pays the price and those initiating and perpetuating the incivility can high five each other and celebrate their victory.
There has to be a better way.
You were talking about a FB and now have expended it that is a good thing.Fred needs to make a decision, if he does not like what is being said either he ignores it or leaves IMO. The TOS agreement should also help him and everyone else understand what is acceptable and what is not. People have said mean things about me, who cares I know it is not true, and if it is true then I have an evil laugh because I probably had fun at being an ass.Civility no, criminal behavior under certain circumstances yes.So we can say we now have your vote in favor of federal laws mandating civility?
But when it comes to incivility, what constitutes criminal behavior? Certainly I think slander and libel laws should apply when a person's reputation is falsely compromised or such as that, but we already have laws on the book addressing that. Certainly threats of violence or other harmful actions constitute assault and there are already laws on the books about that.
But--and this is for the purpose of illustration only and is not to be taken literally by anybody--if I call "Fred" an ignorant numbnut, what damages can be claimed that could be addressed by law? If I get on Facebook and tell embarassing stories about him that happen to be true, or make uncomplimentary comments about his appearance or mannerisms or whatever, what damages can he claim? The insult a minute expected from certain members of a message board may spoil somebody's enjoyment of the board but are great fun for others. What laws would address that?
I think you're missing the point. If the only recourse we have to incivility in our lives is to remove ourselves from it, that is all well and good if we have someplace to go. In the case of persons targeted for incivility, however, they are forced to give up something they value--their job, their school, their job, use of social media, participation in public activities, participation on a message board--or the incivility continues. So the innocent pays the price and those initiating and perpetuating the incivility can high five each other and celebrate their victory.
There has to be a better way.
In the case of jobs, there are laws, in the case of school there are laws, in the case of social media they have TOS and the other options I mentioned, public participation depends on what is being done, message board has TOS.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
When I first arrived here at USMB the place was overrun with RW bullies who shamelessly abused the rep system to essentially control this forum and maintain a very rightwing slant as to what was "allowed".
There were some hardy liberals who refused to be bullied and stood up against the negative repping but it wasn't until USMB changed to this new platform and eliminated repping entirely that the bullying was effectively curtailed.
So in summary if the bullies are unrestrained they will continue to impose their uncivil behavior on others. However if they are denied the ability to intimidate and have to play on a level playing field they are outnumbered by what you referred to as the "innocents".
So now they resort to vulgarities instead. They try to intimidate by making the "innocents" feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. The bullies are essentially using incivility as a means to continue bullying since they can no longer do it in an overt manner.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
When I first arrived here at USMB the place was overrun with RW bullies who shamelessly abused the rep system to essentially control this forum and maintain a very rightwing slant as to what was "allowed".
There were some hardy liberals who refused to be bullied and stood up against the negative repping but it wasn't until USMB changed to this new platform and eliminated repping entirely that the bullying was effectively curtailed.
So in summary if the bullies are unrestrained they will continue to impose their uncivil behavior on others. However if they are denied the ability to intimidate and have to play on a level playing field they are outnumbered by what you referred to as the "innocents".
So now they resort to vulgarities instead. They try to intimidate by making the "innocents" feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. The bullies are essentially using incivility as a means to continue bullying since they can no longer do it in an overt manner.
Noting here a violation of Rule #1 of the thread. A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread. Bullies come in all colors, sizes, shapes, and ideologies and singling out one group for inappropriate criticism is in itself a form of incivility that this thread is intended to address.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
When I first arrived here at USMB the place was overrun with RW bullies who shamelessly abused the rep system to essentially control this forum and maintain a very rightwing slant as to what was "allowed".
There were some hardy liberals who refused to be bullied and stood up against the negative repping but it wasn't until USMB changed to this new platform and eliminated repping entirely that the bullying was effectively curtailed.
So in summary if the bullies are unrestrained they will continue to impose their uncivil behavior on others. However if they are denied the ability to intimidate and have to play on a level playing field they are outnumbered by what you referred to as the "innocents".
So now they resort to vulgarities instead. They try to intimidate by making the "innocents" feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. The bullies are essentially using incivility as a means to continue bullying since they can no longer do it in an overt manner.
Noting here a violation of Rule #1 of the thread. A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread. Bullies come in all colors, sizes, shapes, and ideologies and singling out one group for inappropriate criticism is in itself a form of incivility that this thread is intended to address.
Stating historical facts is not an ad hom since no individuals were identified.
Ad hominem Define Ad hominem at Dictionary.com
ad hominem
[ad hom-uh-nuh m -nem, ahd‐]
adjective
1.
appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2.
attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
When I first arrived here at USMB the place was overrun with RW bullies who shamelessly abused the rep system to essentially control this forum and maintain a very rightwing slant as to what was "allowed".
There were some hardy liberals who refused to be bullied and stood up against the negative repping but it wasn't until USMB changed to this new platform and eliminated repping entirely that the bullying was effectively curtailed.
So in summary if the bullies are unrestrained they will continue to impose their uncivil behavior on others. However if they are denied the ability to intimidate and have to play on a level playing field they are outnumbered by what you referred to as the "innocents".
So now they resort to vulgarities instead. They try to intimidate by making the "innocents" feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. The bullies are essentially using incivility as a means to continue bullying since they can no longer do it in an overt manner.
Noting here a violation of Rule #1 of the thread. A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread. Bullies come in all colors, sizes, shapes, and ideologies and singling out one group for inappropriate criticism is in itself a form of incivility that this thread is intended to address.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
When I first arrived here at USMB the place was overrun with RW bullies who shamelessly abused the rep system to essentially control this forum and maintain a very rightwing slant as to what was "allowed".
There were some hardy liberals who refused to be bullied and stood up against the negative repping but it wasn't until USMB changed to this new platform and eliminated repping entirely that the bullying was effectively curtailed.
So in summary if the bullies are unrestrained they will continue to impose their uncivil behavior on others. However if they are denied the ability to intimidate and have to play on a level playing field they are outnumbered by what you referred to as the "innocents".
So now they resort to vulgarities instead. They try to intimidate by making the "innocents" feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. The bullies are essentially using incivility as a means to continue bullying since they can no longer do it in an overt manner.
Noting here a violation of Rule #1 of the thread. A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread. Bullies come in all colors, sizes, shapes, and ideologies and singling out one group for inappropriate criticism is in itself a form of incivility that this thread is intended to address.
"A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread." How so? Is "RW bullies" a poster here?
And since it is a fact that you cannot prove or support in any way that it was RW bullies
And since it is a fact that you cannot prove or support in any way that it was RW bullies
But I can do so!
The amount of rep that each poster had was ranked by USMB. The top 20 posters in the forum with the highest rep were all on the right. In fact there were no LW posters on the entire first page of 30 posters. That is not to say that the bullies were all on the first page because they weren't. But the tone was there and it was reflected not only in those rankings but in the numerous threads complaining about the bullying that was rampant. Those threads still exist if you care to look them up for yourself.
So yes, the bias was there and the bullying was there and it was so egregious that the USMB administrators chose to eliminate rep entirely in this new platform even though they had the option to transfer it over.
Now you can argue that it wasn't only RW'ers who were doing it and that was true once the LW'ers figured out how the system worked. They had reason enough for payback IMO.
Speaking for myself I considered negative repping to be the worst aspect of USMB and I did my utmost to render it ineffective it was an uncivil practice that resulted in unnecessary discord and harm to innocents as Alex refers to them.
What prompts people to do this?
Should USMB (and other forums, venues, and groups) institute hard fast rules to prevent it such as the rules on this thread? Why or why not?
What prompts people to do this?
Low self esteem IMO.
In essence bullies suffer from low self esteem because they lack the ability to rise any higher. Without that option they try to bring others down to their own level instead.
Should USMB (and other forums, venues, and groups) institute hard fast rules to prevent it such as the rules on this thread? Why or why not?
Given that USMB did exactly that in hindsight I agree that it was the right decision. The amount of time and effort that was wasted trying to manage the incivility from the bullying was detracting from the overall experience.
So yes, I would agree that putting in place hard and fast rules that deal with bullying and incivility do work. Have they stopped all of the incivility? Nope, and it is probably impossible without infringing on freedom of speech. But it can be "discouraged" and in that regard USMB has an effective tool that does exactly that, it discourages those that are incapable of behaving in a civilized manner.
So the answer is all of the above. Use both hard and soft approaches.
Incivility is nothing new.
During the 1980's and 1990's, the House of Representatives allowed members to make after hours speeches on any topic. These 'special orders' were almost always presented to empty seats, and they were carried on Cspan (who wasn't allowed to show the empty seats) so we were able to listen in. And some of these were so angry and vitriolic, they made a body shudder. Bob Dornan of California was there almost every night accusing the Clinton administration. Henry Gonzalez of Texas was there almost every night accusing President Reagan and President G.H.W. Bush.
During the same period, AOL (and other) chat rooms became popular. The political and religion rooms were always packed with people taking advantage of anonymity to say the most outrageous and hateful things to each other. That tradition has seemed to carry over to message boards that have mostly replaced the chat rooms and has become commonplace in our national culture.
“In today’s America, incivility is on prominent display: in the schools, where bullying is pervasive; in the workplace, where an increasing number are more stressed out by coworkers than their jobs; on the roads, where road rage maims and kills; in politics, where strident intolerance takes the place of earnest dialogue; and on the web, where many check their inhibitions at the digital door,” says Pier M. Forni, author of “The Civility Solution: What to Do When People are Rude” and director of The Civility Initiative at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.
“How in the world can we stop bullying in schools, in the workplace, in politics, when it is so close to our national character right now?” asks Dr. Gary Namie, a psychologist and cofounder of the Workplace Bullying Institute, a Washington state–based nonprofit.
TOPIC TO BE DISCUSSED:
Why are people uncivil and so often say hateful or insulting or hurtful things to each other in this and other environments? What do they get out of it? Do they hope to accomplish something? Has anybody ever had their mind changed by somebody yelling at them and/or being insulting? What purpose does it serve? Is there some sort of personal satisfaction attached to it? And is this a good thing? Bad thing? Can it harm people? What affect, if anything, does incivility have on others, especially kids?
RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION
1. Stay on topic with no ad hominem or personal insults directed at any specific person or group participating in this discussion or elsewhere.
2. To avoid getting bogged down, for purposes of this discussion only, the OP reserves the right to specify what definitions will be used if there is any dispute about that.
3. If you post a link, please give at least a brief description of what we will learn if we click on that link. Links can be useful, but are not required to express an opinion in this discussion.
Do all the politicos and talking heads and pundits and social media people et al participating in the uncivil rhetoric all suffer from low self esteem?
This "Drop it DT. You're out of line pushing this. It does not matter who had the highest rep nor does that provide any proof of bullying, of who bullied who, or who started it, or anything else. So please return to the topic or I will start reporting the infractions." is an example of bullying. Please report it.
The innocent pay the price as far as their willingness to cave in and give up. The innocent far outweigh the perpetrators of the incivility, they can reach out to others and gain strength in numbers while effectuating change through the acceptable methods.
When I first arrived here at USMB the place was overrun with RW bullies who shamelessly abused the rep system to essentially control this forum and maintain a very rightwing slant as to what was "allowed".
There were some hardy liberals who refused to be bullied and stood up against the negative repping but it wasn't until USMB changed to this new platform and eliminated repping entirely that the bullying was effectively curtailed.
So in summary if the bullies are unrestrained they will continue to impose their uncivil behavior on others. However if they are denied the ability to intimidate and have to play on a level playing field they are outnumbered by what you referred to as the "innocents".
So now they resort to vulgarities instead. They try to intimidate by making the "innocents" feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. The bullies are essentially using incivility as a means to continue bullying since they can no longer do it in an overt manner.
Noting here a violation of Rule #1 of the thread. A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread. Bullies come in all colors, sizes, shapes, and ideologies and singling out one group for inappropriate criticism is in itself a form of incivility that this thread is intended to address.
"A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread." How so? Is "RW bullies" a poster here?
It was used as a derogatory characterization of a group of people at USMB in a way that cannot be supported by any evidence in fact but can be explained only on a basis of personal prejudice or perception.
But such personal prejudice and/or perception is a frequent tool used to accomplish incivility at USMB, in the MSM, in social media, and in government as expressed in the OP.
Also, some people don't seem to understand anything BUT rudeness. These types of forum can attract a lot of good people but also tend to attract the most extreme types of people. For the most part, I try to treat people in the same manner that they treat me because respect is earned, IMO.
